Keto--what are your thoughts?
Options
Replies
-
Right, in the short term. Over the long term, hardly any difference at all. So once again, choose the diet that helps you comply.
I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
Proved wrong - LOL. How do you work that out then ? By an apocryphal tale of people not on keto diets. Yeah, right.
Another bunch of low carb cheats managed to sneak into a study and eat less at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44.full - conclusion of 4 week periods "Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets."
Here's the calorie intake, it's a crossover study. Ad-lib eating in a residential setting. Even when they tried to force the same number of calories the low carb period resulted in lower consumption:
0 -
I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
Proved wrong - LOL. How do you work that out then ? By an apocryphal tale of people not on keto diets. Yeah, right.
Another bunch of low carb cheats managed to sneak into a study and eat less at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44.full - conclusion of 4 week periods "Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets."
Here's the calorie intake, it's a crossover study. Ad-lib eating in a residential setting. Even when they tried to force the same number of calories the low carb period resulted in lower consumption:
Protein and/or Fiber = satiety. You can increase satiety, even while maintaining carbs and reducing fats.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html
Volume of food also plays a big part. LC/Keto is one of many strategies that works off this premise. Even on a higher carb diet, I can eat certain foods/combinations to ensure hunger isn't an issue.
0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote:Again I tried this for pain management and in the first 30 days it worked very well and continues to do so. Of course getting instant gratification I would have kept doing if it had been hard, not quick or convenient.
May I ask is that arthritic pain you speak of? and you are not getting that pain anymore since starting keto? That is amazing.
@coco_bee 30 days after I cut out foods with sugars/grains my arthritis joint/muscle pain dropped from a subjective 7-8 to 2-3 on a 1-10 scale. My doctor's appoint was 7 Nov 2014 to start Enbrel injections and I was able to say thanks but no thanks to Enbrel because I when <50 grams of carbs daily cold turkey the month before.
@Asher_Ethan thanks for sharing the awesome story about your mom's 10 year keto success story.
@psulemon apparently lean body mass loss (protein sparing) is a feature of keto eating and does not require an increase in protein from one's diet. The four methods of protein sparing proposed are at the end of the study below. It sounds like magic to some but the article deals with the science to some degree. It is a complex subject but seems to spare protein to some extent unlike other types of diet.
nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/3/1/9
Since I have found no way to subscribe or get email notices when someone posts to a thread where I posted like the mainstream forums please just use the @GaleHawkins so I can get back to read your post thoughts.
Thanks @galehawkins but you just proved my point.
"Although more long-term studies are needed before a firm conclusion can be drawn, it appears, from most literature studied, that a VLCARB is, if anything, protective against muscle protein catabolism during energy restriction, provided that it contains adequate amounts of protein. "
Keto diets or low carb diets are ONLY protein sparing if, and only if, protein levels are adequate.
I don't think anyone is disputing that.
0 -
And if anything you said was remotely true, why aren't there any cases that demonstrate Keto's ability to a more effect long term weight/fat loss strategy?
Because there aren't studies that consider keto as a long-term diet.Do you actually have any studies that justify your position?
Simply consider what happens in a one-month starving, thanks to ketosis.
So essentially, you are just making stuff up and making wild assumptions?
And your body will get energy from either carbs or fat. Both of which your body will constantly use all day. It's not a one or other. So during exercise, you might burn glycogen, but during rest, your body fat. In keto, you burn body fat or dietary fat. So it's not a magical body fat burner like you can on saying.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730865/
0 -
I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
I am not really sure how we got on the debate about energy systems.
proved to be wrong. really?
0 -
I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
Proved wrong - LOL. How do you work that out then ? By an apocryphal tale of people not on keto diets. Yeah, right.
Another bunch of low carb cheats managed to sneak into a study and eat less at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44.full - conclusion of 4 week periods "Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets."
Here's the calorie intake, it's a crossover study. Ad-lib eating in a residential setting. Even when they tried to force the same number of calories the low carb period resulted in lower consumption:
Protein and/or Fiber = satiety. You can increase satiety, even while maintaining carbs and reducing fats.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html
Volume of food also plays a big part. LC/Keto is one of many strategies that works off this premise. Even on a higher carb diet, I can eat certain foods/combinations to ensure hunger isn't an issue.
Not if you want to spare your poor kidneys. And you selected your study to "prove" something, obviously, but you only manage to show that low carb - high protein gets a different result from high protein moderate carb.You would "prove" something had you found a study showing low carb - high fat vs low carb - high protein. Good luck with that0 -
Keto is not a long term solution. From a medical stand point it has to be cycled. It is a good method of weight loss. I prefer intermittent fasting. Its healthier and can be done for longer term.0
-
christianlee100 wrote: »Keto is not a long term solution. From a medical stand point it has to be cycled.
Why? There are people in ketosis for life.christianlee100 wrote: »It is a good method of weight loss. I prefer intermittent fasting. Its healthier and can be done for longer term.
Healthier from what point of view?
Form me is ketosis simply a better way to manage my energies. I'm not using it for mere weight loss (but I've lost the last 14 pounds in ketosis).0 -
Protein and/or Fiber = satiety. You can increase satiety, even while maintaining carbs and reducing fats.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html
Volume of food also plays a big part. LC/Keto is one of many strategies that works off this premise. Even on a higher carb diet, I can eat certain foods/combinations to ensure hunger isn't an issue.
The LC diet had less protein, fibre, calories and mass of food per day in the crossover study.http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44/T2.expansion.html
so you can't hide behind any of them.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html appears to be a 50% carbohydrate diet, so you've lost me there. Seems you are clinically incapable of accepting the evidence that in ketogenic diets appetite is suppressed despite several items of evidence so I think we're done here.0 -
Not if you want to spare your poor kidneys. And you selected your study to "prove" something, obviously, but you only manage to show that low carb - high protein gets a different result from high protein moderate carb.You would "prove" something had you found a study showing low carb - high fat vs low carb - high protein. Good luck with that
The study linked was lost on me :-
0 -
I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
Proved wrong - LOL. How do you work that out then ? By an apocryphal tale of people not on keto diets. Yeah, right.
Another bunch of low carb cheats managed to sneak into a study and eat less at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44.full - conclusion of 4 week periods "Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets."
Here's the calorie intake, it's a crossover study. Ad-lib eating in a residential setting. Even when they tried to force the same number of calories the low carb period resulted in lower consumption:
Protein and/or Fiber = satiety. You can increase satiety, even while maintaining carbs and reducing fats.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html
Volume of food also plays a big part. LC/Keto is one of many strategies that works off this premise. Even on a higher carb diet, I can eat certain foods/combinations to ensure hunger isn't an issue.
Not if you want to spare your poor kidneys. And you selected your study to "prove" something, obviously, but you only manage to show that low carb - high protein gets a different result from high protein moderate carb.You would "prove" something had you found a study showing low carb - high fat vs low carb - high protein. Good luck with that
What does this have to do with kidneys?0 -
Right, in the short term. Over the long term, hardly any difference at all.
I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.stevencloser wrote: »I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
Proved wrong - LOL. How do you work that out then ? By an apocryphal tale of people not on keto diets. Yeah, right.
Another bunch of low carb cheats managed to sneak into a study and eat less at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44.full - conclusion of 4 week periods "Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets."
Here's the calorie intake, it's a crossover study. Ad-lib eating in a residential setting. Even when they tried to force the same number of calories the low carb period resulted in lower consumption:
They say "in the short term" because the study was for 4 weeks.
Where's your evidence for the long term being different ? There's no sign of convergence in the two trends.
0 -
Protein and/or Fiber = satiety. You can increase satiety, even while maintaining carbs and reducing fats.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html
Volume of food also plays a big part. LC/Keto is one of many strategies that works off this premise. Even on a higher carb diet, I can eat certain foods/combinations to ensure hunger isn't an issue.
The LC diet had less protein, fibre, calories and mass of food per day in the crossover study.http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44/T2.expansion.html
so you can't hide behind any of them.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html appears to be a 50% carbohydrate diet, so you've lost me there. Seems you are clinically incapable of accepting the evidence that in ketogenic diets appetite is suppressed despite several items of evidence so I think we're done here.
Any diet high in protein is going to increase satiety (I will admit to that, even if that isn't how it came off above). That was the purpose of the study I posted. Even with 50% carbs, the increase in protein had a subsequent increase in satiety.
My initial argument was that just because you are in Keto or doing low carb, doesn't mean you can run a large deficit than other diets. I believe that is how we spiraled down this rabbit hole.
0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote:Again I tried this for pain management and in the first 30 days it worked very well and continues to do so. Of course getting instant gratification I would have kept doing if it had been hard, not quick or convenient.
May I ask is that arthritic pain you speak of? and you are not getting that pain anymore since starting keto? That is amazing.
@coco_bee 30 days after I cut out foods with sugars/grains my arthritis joint/muscle pain dropped from a subjective 7-8 to 2-3 on a 1-10 scale. My doctor's appoint was 7 Nov 2014 to start Enbrel injections and I was able to say thanks but no thanks to Enbrel because I when <50 grams of carbs daily cold turkey the month before.
@Asher_Ethan thanks for sharing the awesome story about your mom's 10 year keto success story.
@psulemon apparently lean body mass loss (protein sparing) is a feature of keto eating and does not require an increase in protein from one's diet. The four methods of protein sparing proposed are at the end of the study below. It sounds like magic to some but the article deals with the science to some degree. It is a complex subject but seems to spare protein to some extent unlike other types of diet.
nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/3/1/9
Since I have found no way to subscribe or get email notices when someone posts to a thread where I posted like the mainstream forums please just use the @GaleHawkins so I can get back to read your post thoughts.
Thanks @galehawkins but you just proved my point.
"Although more long-term studies are needed before a firm conclusion can be drawn, it appears, from most literature studied, that a VLCARB is, if anything, protective against muscle protein catabolism during energy restriction, provided that it contains adequate amounts of protein. "
Keto diets or low carb diets are ONLY protein sparing if, and only if, protein levels are adequate.
I don't think anyone is disputing that.
Don't know if you followed the trail, but that statement was to address the belowKetosis is "designed" to minimize lean mass loss and to maximize fat mass loss. It is the way it works, you can find a lot of documentation.
My argument was that any diet with adequate protein (generally .8-1g per lb of lean body mass) is protein sparing. Being on Keto doesn't automatically make it protein sparing unless protein is at a sufficient level.0 -
I don`t actually have a particular opinion on keto.At the end of the week is all about calories, doesn`t matter if it is carbs,fats..etc0
-
Folks we have to live with the fact that today there are more unknowns about how the human body deals with food sources than that is "known". Even the 'known" is changing year by year.
I do Keto for pain management because it has worked well for the last year. It is known to be a safe long term eating lifestyle. I was going to die sooner than later if I did not break my carb addiction forever.
Weight is drifting down. Triglycerides level is drifting down. HDL cholesterol numbers are moving up. These are good side effects. The LDL cholesterol level jumping up has the doctor freaking out. The small size particles become the large 'fluffy' LDL on LCHF diets which is a good type like HDL numbers going up it good. This is a good side effect of Low Carb High Fat eating as well.
Keep in mind the difference between the 'Bad' LDL and 'Good' LDL are only about 2 micron in size.
LCHF may not be for others.
As long as my risks of heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's, Type 2 diabetes, etc are dropping like a rock in my mind this old man will be eating LCHF until new data requires a new eating lifestyle decision or I lose my mind and go back to living on carbs.
0 -
I don`t actually have a particular opinion on keto.At the end of the week is all about calories, doesn`t matter if it is carbs,fats..etc
My opinion is that keto is fine.
The need of some people on keto to have it proclaimed the best of all possible diets is bizarre.
That keto controls hunger for some people with hunger issues is likely true, but doesn't seem all that relevant to people without hunger issues.
An overly aggressive deficit is a bad idea, whether one is doing keto or not. That's especially true if one is trying to improve athletic performance/is exercising intensely on a regular basis.0 -
christianlee100 wrote: »Keto is not a long term solution. From a medical stand point it has to be cycled. It is a good method of weight loss. I prefer intermittent fasting. Its healthier and can be done for longer term.
Many people cycle on and off of ketosis. Nothing wrong with that. I doubt many go back to high or moderate carbs though. From what I see, most people who did ketosis, and benefited, tend to keep carbs low.
Intermittent fasting... that's pretty cyclical too. Just a shorter cycle. A good deal of keto'ers do IF too. They're pretty complimentary.0 -
christianlee100 wrote: »Keto is not a long term solution. From a medical stand point it has to be cycled. It is a good method of weight loss. I prefer intermittent fasting. Its healthier and can be done for longer term.
Many people cycle on and off of ketosis. Nothing wrong with that. I doubt many go back to high or moderate carbs though. From what I see, most people who did ketosis, and benefited, tend to keep carbs low.
Intermittent fasting... that's pretty cyclical too. Just a shorter cycle. A good deal of keto'ers do IF too. They're pretty complimentary.
I love you for your mind!0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I don`t actually have a particular opinion on keto.At the end of the week is all about calories, doesn`t matter if it is carbs,fats..etc
My opinion is that keto is fine.
The need of some people on keto to have it proclaimed the best of all possible diets is bizarre.
That keto controls hunger for some people with hunger issues is likely true, but doesn't seem all that relevant to people without hunger issues.
An overly aggressive deficit is a bad idea, whether one is doing keto or not. That's especially true if one is trying to improve athletic performance/is exercising intensely on a regular basis.
It`s controls their appetite because they eat high fat.Fat does make you satisfied.
0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 392.1K Introduce Yourself
- 43.6K Getting Started
- 259.9K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.7K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 403 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.8K Motivation and Support
- 7.9K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.4K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 999 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.4K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions