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Keto--what are your thoughts?

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Replies

  • Posts: 92 Member
    Ok, nevermind.
  • Posts: 38,439 MFP Moderator
    edited September 2015
    I am completely lost as to what even your point is at this point.
    I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.

    I am not really sure how we got on the debate about energy systems.
  • Posts: 6,037 Member
    Do whatever helps you comply
    dorje77 wrote: »

    The diet is a tool, off course. :)

    I choose keto for a simple reason: I had a lot of energy stored as fat and I was looking for a way to use it as the main source of energy.

    Converting fat in ketones is the only way to do that, AFAIK.

    Any diet is a tool. Again, IMO the diets are over-emphasized and the training under-emphasized.

    Keto is not the only way to burn body fat...
  • Posts: 30,886 Member
    psulemon wrote: »
    I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.

    I am not really sure how we got on the debate about energy systems.

    I think he's arguing that you run on fat if keto and can't burn fat for energy if not keto (which is false). So because of this someone doing keto can consistently eat at an extreme deficit and yet do well with intense exercise without risking muscle (which I also believe is false).
  • Posts: 8,059 Member
    dorje77 wrote: »

    It depends on how the people involved in the study were training. You cannot have the same amount of energy for sport ... So, if you are in a non ketogenic hypocalric diet and your energy expense is greater than your daily food intake, you will get energy from protein catabolism. If you are in ketosis, you will get energy from fat catabolism.
    Um, no. When in a calorie deficit the body burns fat to make up the difference. Protein catabolism is a rather complex, difficult process, so the body doesn't go to that until it needs to, which is either when the body doesn't have enough stored fat to support the deficit, when the body has burned all the fat it is capable of in a given time period, or there is insufficient glucose intake to maintain organ function.
  • Posts: 6,037 Member
    dorje77 wrote: »
    So, if you are in a non ketogenic hypocalric diet and your energy expense is greater than your daily food intake, you will get energy from protein catabolism. If you are in ketosis, you will get energy from fat catabolism.
    No. If you are taking in adequate protein and resistance training your body will not break down muscle for energy...
  • Posts: 92 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    I think he's arguing that you run on fat if keto and can't burn fat for energy if not keto (which is false).

    I know that everyone can burn fat for energy.

    But there doesn't exist a body that can use 100% of fatty acids directly as energy during training.

    Depending on intensity, you burn more glucose or fat. The more you activity is intense, then the mixture of glucose and fat that you are using shifts to carbohydrates.

    Ketosis allows using ketone bodies (previously produced from fat) instead of carbohydrates. So the mixture you use in ketosis is always fat + ketones.

  • Posts: 10,477 Member
    If we mean the same one, where in the study does it say the women didn't lose any fat?

    In the supplementary data tables they break out the genders. The fat loss by DEXA in women was not statistically significant. The filename is called mmc2 or mmc3 from memory.
  • Posts: 10,477 Member
    edited September 2015
    psulemon wrote: »
    I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.

    Proved wrong - LOL. How do you work that out then ? By an apocryphal tale of people not on keto diets. Yeah, right.

    Another bunch of low carb cheats managed to sneak into a study and eat less at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44.full - conclusion of 4 week periods "Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets."

    Here's the calorie intake, it's a crossover study. Ad-lib eating in a residential setting. Even when they tried to force the same number of calories the low carb period resulted in lower consumption:

    F2.medium.gif
  • Posts: 6,037 Member
    dorje77 wrote: »

    I know that everyone can burn fat for energy.

    But there doesn't exist a body that can use 100% of fatty acids directly as energy during training.

    Depending on intensity, you burn more glucose or fat. The more you activity is intense, then the mixture of glucose and fat that you are using shifts to carbohydrates.

    Ketosis allows using ketone bodies (previously produced from fat) instead of carbohydrates. So the mixture you use in ketosis is always fat + ketones.
    The body will switch energy pathways as it needs to sustain the given activity of choice. Being in ketosis has less to do with that then the activity. Once again, the diet is overemphasized...
  • Posts: 6,037 Member
    yarwell wrote: »

    Proved wrong - LOL. How do you work that out then ? By an apocryphal tale of people not on keto diets. Yeah, right.

    Another bunch of low carb cheats managed to sneak into a study and eat less at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44.full - conclusion of 4 week periods "Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets."

    Here's the calorie intake, it's a crossover study. Ad-lib eating in a residential setting. Even when they tried to force the same number of calories the low carb period resulted in lower consumption:

    F2.medium.gif
    Right, in the short term. Over the long term, hardly any difference at all. So once again, choose the diet that helps you comply.
  • Posts: 38,439 MFP Moderator
    edited September 2015
    yarwell wrote: »

    Proved wrong - LOL. How do you work that out then ? By an apocryphal tale of people not on keto diets. Yeah, right.

    Another bunch of low carb cheats managed to sneak into a study and eat less at http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44.full - conclusion of 4 week periods "Conclusion: In the short term, high-protein, low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets reduce hunger and lower food intake significantly more than do high-protein, medium-carbohydrate nonketogenic diets."

    Here's the calorie intake, it's a crossover study. Ad-lib eating in a residential setting. Even when they tried to force the same number of calories the low carb period resulted in lower consumption:

    F2.medium.gif


    Protein and/or Fiber = satiety. You can increase satiety, even while maintaining carbs and reducing fats.

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html

    Volume of food also plays a big part. LC/Keto is one of many strategies that works off this premise. Even on a higher carb diet, I can eat certain foods/combinations to ensure hunger isn't an issue.



  • Posts: 982 Member
    psulemon wrote: »

    Thanks @galehawkins but you just proved my point.

    "Although more long-term studies are needed before a firm conclusion can be drawn, it appears, from most literature studied, that a VLCARB is, if anything, protective against muscle protein catabolism during energy restriction, provided that it contains adequate amounts of protein. "

    Keto diets or low carb diets are ONLY protein sparing if, and only if, protein levels are adequate.


    I don't think anyone is disputing that.
  • Posts: 982 Member
    psulemon wrote: »

    So essentially, you are just making stuff up and making wild assumptions?


    And your body will get energy from either carbs or fat. Both of which your body will constantly use all day. It's not a one or other. So during exercise, you might burn glycogen, but during rest, your body fat. In keto, you burn body fat or dietary fat. So it's not a magical body fat burner like you can on saying.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730865/
  • Posts: 982 Member
    psulemon wrote: »
    I agree. I thought the two debates we were having were: 1. Keto keeps you full longer (which @yarwell addressed that one, and 2. Keto is designed to maintain lean body mass (which was already @galehawkins link addressed that one). Both assertions, where proved to be wrong.

    I am not really sure how we got on the debate about energy systems.


    proved to be wrong. really?
  • Posts: 982 Member
    psulemon wrote: »


    Protein and/or Fiber = satiety. You can increase satiety, even while maintaining carbs and reducing fats.

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html

    Volume of food also plays a big part. LC/Keto is one of many strategies that works off this premise. Even on a higher carb diet, I can eat certain foods/combinations to ensure hunger isn't an issue.



    Not if you want to spare your poor kidneys. And you selected your study to "prove" something, obviously, but you only manage to show that low carb - high protein gets a different result from high protein moderate carb.You would "prove" something had you found a study showing low carb - high fat vs low carb - high protein. Good luck with that
  • Posts: 745 Member
    Keto is not a long term solution. From a medical stand point it has to be cycled. It is a good method of weight loss. I prefer intermittent fasting. Its healthier and can be done for longer term.
  • Posts: 92 Member
    Keto is not a long term solution. From a medical stand point it has to be cycled.

    Why? There are people in ketosis for life.
    It is a good method of weight loss. I prefer intermittent fasting. Its healthier and can be done for longer term.

    Healthier from what point of view?

    Form me is ketosis simply a better way to manage my energies. I'm not using it for mere weight loss (but I've lost the last 14 pounds in ketosis).
  • Posts: 10,477 Member
    psulemon wrote: »

    Protein and/or Fiber = satiety. You can increase satiety, even while maintaining carbs and reducing fats.

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html

    Volume of food also plays a big part. LC/Keto is one of many strategies that works off this premise. Even on a higher carb diet, I can eat certain foods/combinations to ensure hunger isn't an issue.



    The LC diet had less protein, fibre, calories and mass of food per day in the crossover study.http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44/T2.expansion.html
    so you can't hide behind any of them.

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html appears to be a 50% carbohydrate diet, so you've lost me there. Seems you are clinically incapable of accepting the evidence that in ketogenic diets appetite is suppressed despite several items of evidence so I think we're done here.
  • Posts: 10,477 Member
    lodro wrote: »
    Not if you want to spare your poor kidneys. And you selected your study to "prove" something, obviously, but you only manage to show that low carb - high protein gets a different result from high protein moderate carb.You would "prove" something had you found a study showing low carb - high fat vs low carb - high protein. Good luck with that

    The study linked was lost on me :-
    6ajifnur6z2k.png
    7y4mpueuyqz9.png

  • Posts: 38,439 MFP Moderator
    lodro wrote: »

    Not if you want to spare your poor kidneys. And you selected your study to "prove" something, obviously, but you only manage to show that low carb - high protein gets a different result from high protein moderate carb.You would "prove" something had you found a study showing low carb - high fat vs low carb - high protein. Good luck with that

    What does this have to do with kidneys?
  • Posts: 10,477 Member
    J72FIT wrote: »
    Right, in the short term. Over the long term, hardly any difference at all.

    They say "in the short term" because the study was for 4 weeks.

    Where's your evidence for the long term being different ? There's no sign of convergence in the two trends.
  • Posts: 38,439 MFP Moderator
    yarwell wrote: »

    The LC diet had less protein, fibre, calories and mass of food per day in the crossover study.http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/44/T2.expansion.html
    so you can't hide behind any of them.

    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/41.full.pdf+html appears to be a 50% carbohydrate diet, so you've lost me there. Seems you are clinically incapable of accepting the evidence that in ketogenic diets appetite is suppressed despite several items of evidence so I think we're done here.

    Any diet high in protein is going to increase satiety (I will admit to that, even if that isn't how it came off above). That was the purpose of the study I posted. Even with 50% carbs, the increase in protein had a subsequent increase in satiety.

    My initial argument was that just because you are in Keto or doing low carb, doesn't mean you can run a large deficit than other diets. I believe that is how we spiraled down this rabbit hole.
  • Posts: 38,439 MFP Moderator
    lodro wrote: »


    I don't think anyone is disputing that.



    Don't know if you followed the trail, but that statement was to address the below
    dorje77 wrote: »
    Ketosis is "designed" to minimize lean mass loss and to maximize fat mass loss. It is the way it works, you can find a lot of documentation.


    My argument was that any diet with adequate protein (generally .8-1g per lb of lean body mass) is protein sparing. Being on Keto doesn't automatically make it protein sparing unless protein is at a sufficient level.
  • Posts: 71 Member
    I don`t actually have a particular opinion on keto.At the end of the week is all about calories, doesn`t matter if it is carbs,fats..etc
  • Posts: 8,159 Member
    edited September 2015
    Folks we have to live with the fact that today there are more unknowns about how the human body deals with food sources than that is "known". Even the 'known" is changing year by year.

    I do Keto for pain management because it has worked well for the last year. It is known to be a safe long term eating lifestyle. I was going to die sooner than later if I did not break my carb addiction forever.

    Weight is drifting down. Triglycerides level is drifting down. HDL cholesterol numbers are moving up. These are good side effects. The LDL cholesterol level jumping up has the doctor freaking out. The small size particles become the large 'fluffy' LDL on LCHF diets which is a good type like HDL numbers going up it good. This is a good side effect of Low Carb High Fat eating as well.

    Keep in mind the difference between the 'Bad' LDL and 'Good' LDL are only about 2 micron in size.

    LCHF may not be for others.

    As long as my risks of heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's, Type 2 diabetes, etc are dropping like a rock in my mind this old man will be eating LCHF until new data requires a new eating lifestyle decision or I lose my mind and go back to living on carbs. :)
  • Posts: 30,886 Member
    edited September 2015
    Bansh3e wrote: »
    I don`t actually have a particular opinion on keto.At the end of the week is all about calories, doesn`t matter if it is carbs,fats..etc

    My opinion is that keto is fine.

    The need of some people on keto to have it proclaimed the best of all possible diets is bizarre.

    That keto controls hunger for some people with hunger issues is likely true, but doesn't seem all that relevant to people without hunger issues.

    An overly aggressive deficit is a bad idea, whether one is doing keto or not. That's especially true if one is trying to improve athletic performance/is exercising intensely on a regular basis.
  • Posts: 12,019 Member
    Keto is not a long term solution. From a medical stand point it has to be cycled. It is a good method of weight loss. I prefer intermittent fasting. Its healthier and can be done for longer term.

    Many people cycle on and off of ketosis. Nothing wrong with that. I doubt many go back to high or moderate carbs though. From what I see, most people who did ketosis, and benefited, tend to keep carbs low.

    Intermittent fasting... that's pretty cyclical too. Just a shorter cycle. A good deal of keto'ers do IF too. They're pretty complimentary.
  • Posts: 745 Member
    nvmomketo wrote: »

    Many people cycle on and off of ketosis. Nothing wrong with that. I doubt many go back to high or moderate carbs though. From what I see, most people who did ketosis, and benefited, tend to keep carbs low.

    Intermittent fasting... that's pretty cyclical too. Just a shorter cycle. A good deal of keto'ers do IF too. They're pretty complimentary.

    I love you for your mind!
  • Posts: 71 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »

    My opinion is that keto is fine.

    The need of some people on keto to have it proclaimed the best of all possible diets is bizarre.

    That keto controls hunger for some people with hunger issues is likely true, but doesn't seem all that relevant to people without hunger issues.

    An overly aggressive deficit is a bad idea, whether one is doing keto or not. That's especially true if one is trying to improve athletic performance/is exercising intensely on a regular basis.

    It`s controls their appetite because they eat high fat.Fat does make you satisfied.

This discussion has been closed.