Moderation
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There's a cognitive distortion called "all or nothing thinking" that some dieters fall in to. This is why I advocate moderation. A diet is not derailed by a single processed chocolate chip cookie. People who think to lose that they must follow the diet perfectly, are more likely to feel bad, and fail.0
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mrsnazario1219 wrote: »Holy f$&@"!!! I can't believe that this conversation has gone so left field! Truly the last time I post an article here. I completely forgot how arbitrary people can be on the Internet. How can I take this post down?
You can't. I suppose you could report the post to the mods, unfortunately this is a very polite argument compared to the ones they are willing to shut down. So that may go the way of Jennifer Lawrence's nudes. It's the internet after all, someone has probably already saved it via screen shot.0 -
mrsnazario1219 wrote: »Holy f$&@"!!! I can't believe that this conversation has gone so left field! Truly the last time I post an article here. I completely forgot how arbitrary people can be on the Internet. How can I take this post down?
You can report your own post and request that it be deleted, but I'd really like it if you didn't. Despite some people who don't seem to get it (deliberately or otherwise), there's value in this thread in that misconceptions are being pointed out and corrected.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »I really can't believe this argument is still going on.
Moderation is a word with a consistent definition that can be looked up in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. The way that an individual utilizes moderation as it pertains to diet, or any other concept, will vary based on preferences, tolerances, goals, etc.
Clean Eating is not listed in Merriam-Webster dictionary. In addition to not having a clear definition from a reliable source, it also has subjective application based on individual preferences, tolerances, goals, etc.
I practice moderation but my specific choices in how to apply it to my diet differ from others who practice moderation like @PeachyCarol, @lemurcat12, @ndj1979 . That's ok, because @peachycarol isn't telling me that I have to be a gluten free vegetarian, and @lemurcat12 isn't telling me that I have to eat all foods that come from the CSA or not drink because she doesn't drink, and @ndj1979 isn't telling me I have to eat as much protein as he does because of his lifting. We all recognize that the practice of moderation is individually specific, even though we all understand the consistent definition.
this should end this thread, right here.0 -
clgaram720 wrote: »You know that phenomena where you read/say the same word over and over and over and it starts to sound wrong when you say it, or weird? I'm getting that feeling with "moderate" now.
misquote
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WinoGelato wrote: »I really can't believe this argument is still going on.
Moderation is a word with a consistent definition that can be looked up in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. The way that an individual utilizes moderation as it pertains to diet, or any other concept, will vary based on preferences, tolerances, goals, etc.
Clean Eating is not listed in Merriam-Webster dictionary. In addition to not having a clear definition from a reliable source, it also has subjective application based on individual preferences, tolerances, goals, etc.
I practice moderation but my specific choices in how to apply it to my diet differ from others who practice moderation like @PeachyCarol, @lemurcat12, @ndj1979 . That's ok, because @peachycarol isn't telling me that I have to be a gluten free vegetarian, and @lemurcat12 isn't telling me that I have to eat all foods that come from the CSA or not drink because she doesn't drink, and @ndj1979 isn't telling me I have to eat as much protein as he does because of his lifting. We all recognize that the practice of moderation is individually specific, even though we all understand the consistent definition.
I think you are misunderstanding the argument here, at least the one I'm making. Because according to the author's initial definitions of moderation, PeachyCarol's gluten-free vegetarian diet would be extreme and not moderation, as would only eating foods that come from a CSA, even though you recognize them as being individually-specific, personal choices. I also recognize them as being individually specific and all within moderation.
Others are arguing that diets like paleo or organic, despite also being individually specific personal preferences, cannot be within moderation because of the restriction of certain foods, which makes them "extreme."0 -
mrsnazario1219 wrote: »Holy f$&@"!!! I can't believe that this conversation has gone so left field! Truly the last time I post an article here. I completely forgot how arbitrary people can be on the Internet. How can I take this post down?
Oh, please don't. I know the arguing over the semantics is annoying, but the original post was so good, and I really hope that others who are following along but maybe not commenting find some good info within the link itself, or with the discussion.
I really think the fact that this has turned into an argument about whether or not the word moderation is any more clearly defined than the term clean eating, is telling about the concepts themselves and the points that people are making on both sides.
For people who are advocating that the term moderation has a clear definition, but how one chooses to implement moderation is variable based on individual goals, preferences - that is a moderate approach. Choose what works best for you. Eat mostly healthy things and add in treats if you like. Whatever those treats may be is up to you. You also can feel free to eat more treats some days than other. Personal preference, all things in moderation, including moderation... etc, etc.
For people that are arguing that the word moderation isn't any more clear than the term clean eating, and saying that there has to be a one size fits all approach for moderation and trying to dissect whether a vegetarian is practicing moderation, or someone who is low-carb, etc; those people are focused on the absolutes and extremes by virtue of their argument....
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mrsnazario1219 wrote: »Holy f$&@"!!! I can't believe that this conversation has gone so left field! Truly the last time I post an article here. I completely forgot how arbitrary people can be on the Internet. How can I take this post down?clgaram720 wrote: »You know that phenomena where you read/say the same word over and over and over and it starts to sound wrong when you say it, or weird? I'm getting that feeling with "moderate" now.
I would not worry too much OP. It is just the usual folks that don't understand the concept, and how to apply it to their daily lives, so they have to destroy the concept as something that no one can understand, because they do not understand it.
Think you meant to quote this one0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »I really can't believe this argument is still going on.
Moderation is a word with a consistent definition that can be looked up in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. The way that an individual utilizes moderation as it pertains to diet, or any other concept, will vary based on preferences, tolerances, goals, etc.
Clean Eating is not listed in Merriam-Webster dictionary. In addition to not having a clear definition from a reliable source, it also has subjective application based on individual preferences, tolerances, goals, etc.
I practice moderation but my specific choices in how to apply it to my diet differ from others who practice moderation like @PeachyCarol, @lemurcat12, @ndj1979 . That's ok, because @peachycarol isn't telling me that I have to be a gluten free vegetarian, and @lemurcat12 isn't telling me that I have to eat all foods that come from the CSA or not drink because she doesn't drink, and @ndj1979 isn't telling me I have to eat as much protein as he does because of his lifting. We all recognize that the practice of moderation is individually specific, even though we all understand the consistent definition.
I think you are misunderstanding the argument here, at least the one I'm making. Because according to the author's initial definitions of moderation, PeachyCarol's gluten-free vegetarian diet would be extreme and not moderation, as would only eating foods that come from a CSA, even though you recognize them as being individually-specific, personal choices. I also recognize them as being individually specific and all within moderation.
Others are arguing that diets like paleo or organic, despite also being individually specific personal preferences, cannot be within moderation because of the restriction of certain foods, which makes them "extreme."
naw Winogelato gets it...you don't.
extremes are based on choices made for no reason other than "I heard that if I do this I will be better off..."
Carols choice is due to dislike of meat and medical issues....not a choice due to claims made by others.
Paleo is a way of eating to eliminate processed foods as people "feel" processed foods are "bad" hence the extreme of it.
Moderation has one definition...multiple applications.0 -
clgaram720 wrote: »mrsnazario1219 wrote: »Holy f$&@"!!! I can't believe that this conversation has gone so left field! Truly the last time I post an article here. I completely forgot how arbitrary people can be on the Internet. How can I take this post down?clgaram720 wrote: »You know that phenomena where you read/say the same word over and over and over and it starts to sound wrong when you say it, or weird? I'm getting that feeling with "moderate" now.
I would not worry too much OP. It is just the usual folks that don't understand the concept, and how to apply it to their daily lives, so they have to destroy the concept as something that no one can understand, because they do not understand it.
Think you meant to quote this one
whoops..yes, I did..0 -
That, too, depends on who you ask. Some people insist there is no such thing as healthy foods or treats. All food is the same.All I want to know is, what the hell is a "treat"?
One poster has suggested that there is no such thing as treats in moderation because they don't exist under that concept.
Others say you can have a few treats, but never have been pinned down on the definition.
Me, I would define a treat as any junk food or any food that is just wicked high in calories and not the kind of thing one could eat a lot and still get their vitamins and minerals: cake, tarts, candy, cornbread, pizza, juice, etc. those types of things would be treats to me.
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clgaram720 wrote: »mrsnazario1219 wrote: »Holy f$&@"!!! I can't believe that this conversation has gone so left field! Truly the last time I post an article here. I completely forgot how arbitrary people can be on the Internet. How can I take this post down?clgaram720 wrote: »You know that phenomena where you read/say the same word over and over and over and it starts to sound wrong when you say it, or weird? I'm getting that feeling with "moderate" now.
I would not worry too much OP. It is just the usual folks that don't understand the concept, and how to apply it to their daily lives, so they have to destroy the concept as something that no one can understand, because they do not understand it.
Think you meant to quote this one
whoops..yes, I did..
It's no biggie 
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mrsnazario1219 wrote: »Holy f$&@"!!! I can't believe that this conversation has gone so left field! Truly the last time I post an article here. I completely forgot how arbitrary people can be on the Internet. How can I take this post down?
I would not worry too much OP. It is just the usual folks that don't understand the concept, and how to apply it to their daily lives, so they have to destroy the concept as something that no one can understand, because they do not understand it.0 -
That, too, depends on who you ask. Some people insist there is no such thing as healthy foods or treats. All food is the same.All I want to know is, what the hell is a "treat"?
One poster has suggested that there is no such thing as treats in moderation because they don't exist under that concept.
Others say you can have a few treats, but never have been pinned down on the definition.
wow did you do that on purpose?
you need to teach me how to take what is being said and slant it like that...law school here I come...
bravo to you.0 -
Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
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That, too, depends on who you ask. Some people insist there is no such thing as healthy foods or treats. All food is the same.All I want to know is, what the hell is a "treat"?
One poster has suggested that there is no such thing as treats in moderation because they don't exist under that concept.
Others say you can have a few treats, but never have been pinned down on the definition.
wow did you do that on purpose?
you need to teach me how to take what is being said and slant it like that...law school here I come...
bravo to you.
No slant. These things have been said.0 -
Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.0 -
Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
I define moderation the way the dictionary does. You on the other hand are grasping at straws to make moderation fit into some myopic world view that you have.
I don't see why it is so hard to understand that a strict 100% paleo diet is not moderation.0 -
Subjective for sure. Some people say a treat consists of 10 raw, unsalted almonds. To me a treat is something you take out of a box and throw to a dog.
exactly application is subjective...0
This discussion has been closed.
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