Moderation
Replies
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mrsnazario1219 wrote: »Holy f$&@"!!! I can't believe that this conversation has gone so left field! Truly the last time I post an article here. I completely forgot how arbitrary people can be on the Internet. How can I take this post down?
I would not worry too much OP. It is just the usual folks that don't understand the concept, and how to apply it to their daily lives, so they have to destroy the concept as something that no one can understand, because they do not understand it.
Probably 'Lauren', if by chance is following this thread, is worried. Not a good way to promote a website, through a contentious subject.
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By definition, moderation lives in the grey between fuzzy edges. No, I won't tell the newbie how to eat. They're likely doing most things right already. It's victory through small changes, with few things forbidden. So the same protest made of "clean eaters" cannot be made of moderates. We're fuzzy on purpose, while the "clean eater" tries to give definition, like "no eating from the middle aisles".
We're asked to come up with a non-processed cake recipe today. Can't be done, by definition! An extreme consequence from too many rules.0 -
That, too, depends on who you ask. Some people insist there is no such thing as healthy foods or treats. All food is the same.All I want to know is, what the hell is a "treat"?
One poster has suggested that there is no such thing as treats in moderation because they don't exist under that concept.
Others say you can have a few treats, but never have been pinned down on the definition.
wow did you do that on purpose?
you need to teach me how to take what is being said and slant it like that...law school here I come...
bravo to you.
No slant. These things have been said.
I'd like to see the link(s) to that...esp in this context.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »I really can't believe this argument is still going on.
Moderation is a word with a consistent definition that can be looked up in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. The way that an individual utilizes moderation as it pertains to diet, or any other concept, will vary based on preferences, tolerances, goals, etc.
Clean Eating is not listed in Merriam-Webster dictionary. In addition to not having a clear definition from a reliable source, it also has subjective application based on individual preferences, tolerances, goals, etc.
I practice moderation but my specific choices in how to apply it to my diet differ from others who practice moderation like @PeachyCarol, @lemurcat12, @ndj1979 . That's ok, because @peachycarol isn't telling me that I have to be a gluten free vegetarian, and @lemurcat12 isn't telling me that I have to eat all foods that come from the CSA or not drink because she doesn't drink, and @ndj1979 isn't telling me I have to eat as much protein as he does because of his lifting. We all recognize that the practice of moderation is individually specific, even though we all understand the consistent definition.
I think you are misunderstanding the argument here, at least the one I'm making. Because according to the author's initial definitions of moderation, PeachyCarol's gluten-free vegetarian diet would be extreme and not moderation, as would only eating foods that come from a CSA, even though you recognize them as being individually-specific, personal choices. I also recognize them as being individually specific and all within moderation.
Others are arguing that diets like paleo or organic, despite also being individually specific personal preferences, cannot be within moderation because of the restriction of certain foods, which makes them "extreme."
I agree that even within this thread, people who are advocating for moderation and that everyone understands moderation may make different choices about what moderation looks like for them. I also think that there is a broad spectrum between the two extremes (I think you pointed out upthread the vast chasm between liberals and concervatives from the political spectrum and even within the concept of moderates on the political spectrum, you can be a moderate liberal or a moderate conservative). It just means between the two end points - right? Anything else is technically moderate - since it isn't all the way at one extreme or the other. I agree with all that too.
Honestly, and this is just my opinion (and I think it does differ from a few others in this thread) I think the distinction between what makes someone who is a gluten free vegetarian because of Celiac's and a personal preference to not eat meat; and someone who chooses to eat Paleo because they find that to be a useful way to meet their individual goals is fairly negligible. I think both of those people could practice their own version of moderation within their dietary choices - and to be honest, neither of those ways of eating would be something that would appeal to me, but it also wouldn't bother me. So for me, both the gluten free vegetarian and the paleo eater, are far more extreme than my way of eating, but that doesn't mean they aren't practicing their own version of moderation. In my opinion though, the person who espouses that Paleo or Low-Carb is a better way of eating for others because of XYZ reasons, and that others should be following the same restrictions, is where I start to take issue that this person is less moderate and more extreme.
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Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
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WinoGelato wrote: »mrsnazario1219 wrote: »Holy f$&@"!!! I can't believe that this conversation has gone so left field! Truly the last time I post an article here. I completely forgot how arbitrary people can be on the Internet. How can I take this post down?
Oh, please don't. I know the arguing over the semantics is annoying, but the original post was so good, and I really hope that others who are following along but maybe not commenting find some good info within the link itself, or with the discussion.
I really think the fact that this has turned into an argument about whether or not the word moderation is any more clearly defined than the term clean eating, is telling about the concepts themselves and the points that people are making on both sides.
For people who are advocating that the term moderation has a clear definition, but how one chooses to implement moderation is variable based on individual goals, preferences - that is a moderate approach. Choose what works best for you. Eat mostly healthy things and add in treats if you like. Whatever those treats may be is up to you. You also can feel free to eat more treats some days than other. Personal preference, all things in moderation, including moderation... etc, etc.
For people that are arguing that the word moderation isn't any more clear than the term clean eating, and saying that there has to be a one size fits all approach for moderation and trying to dissect whether a vegetarian is practicing moderation, or someone who is low-carb, etc; those people are focused on the absolutes and extremes by virtue of their argument....
I totally get it. I'm just not an argumentative person by nature (would never win a debate). I never thought this would cause a debate. I'll keep it up for the people that it can help.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »I really can't believe this argument is still going on.
Moderation is a word with a consistent definition that can be looked up in the Merriam-Webster dictionary. The way that an individual utilizes moderation as it pertains to diet, or any other concept, will vary based on preferences, tolerances, goals, etc.
Clean Eating is not listed in Merriam-Webster dictionary. In addition to not having a clear definition from a reliable source, it also has subjective application based on individual preferences, tolerances, goals, etc.
I practice moderation but my specific choices in how to apply it to my diet differ from others who practice moderation like @PeachyCarol, @lemurcat12, @ndj1979 . That's ok, because @peachycarol isn't telling me that I have to be a gluten free vegetarian, and @lemurcat12 isn't telling me that I have to eat all foods that come from the CSA or not drink because she doesn't drink, and @ndj1979 isn't telling me I have to eat as much protein as he does because of his lifting. We all recognize that the practice of moderation is individually specific, even though we all understand the consistent definition.
I think you are misunderstanding the argument here, at least the one I'm making. Because according to the author's initial definitions of moderation, PeachyCarol's gluten-free vegetarian diet would be extreme and not moderation, as would only eating foods that come from a CSA, even though you recognize them as being individually-specific, personal choices. I also recognize them as being individually specific and all within moderation.
Others are arguing that diets like paleo or organic, despite also being individually specific personal preferences, cannot be within moderation because of the restriction of certain foods, which makes them "extreme."
I agree that even within this thread, people who are advocating for moderation and that everyone understands moderation may make different choices about what moderation looks like for them. I also think that there is a broad spectrum between the two extremes (I think you pointed out upthread the vast chasm between liberals and concervatives from the political spectrum and even within the concept of moderates on the political spectrum, you can be a moderate liberal or a moderate conservative). It just means between the two end points - right? Anything else is technically moderate - since it isn't all the way at one extreme or the other. I agree with all that too.
Honestly, and this is just my opinion (and I think it does differ from a few others in this thread) I think the distinction between what makes someone who is a gluten free vegetarian because of Celiac's and a personal preference to not eat meat; and someone who chooses to eat Paleo because they find that to be a useful way to meet their individual goals is fairly negligible. I think both of those people could practice their own version of moderation within their dietary choices - and to be honest, neither of those ways of eating would be something that would appeal to me, but it also wouldn't bother me. So for me, both the gluten free vegetarian and the paleo eater, are far more extreme than my way of eating, but that doesn't mean they aren't practicing their own version of moderation. In my opinion though, the person who espouses that Paleo or Low-Carb is a better way of eating for others because of XYZ reasons, and that others should be following the same restrictions, is where I start to take issue that this person is less moderate and more extreme.
I don't see how the intention or choice of rationale behind any particular WOE makes a difference as far as the necessarily subjective judgements (by the person themselves or other people) about whether it is "moderate" or not.
Someone who has to eat to accommodate IBS or Chrone's or celiac disease or diabetes might not themselves feel their diet is "moderate".0 -
Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
here is a simple process you can use to figure it out:
Locate a dictionary
look up moderation
read the definition
apply it to real world dietary situations and see if it fits
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Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
doesn't matter how I see it to be frank...moderation is the absence of extremes by definition and I feel that most "diets" are extremes and that eliminating foods to lose weight because you just "can't" manage to lose weight if you eat them is extreme. ie atkins, paleo, south beach, 17 day, LCHF, clean etc.
*note diets is in quotes0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »even the author herself states that the actual foods consumed will vary based on personal preferences and tastes (which again, contradicts her previous argument that diets like paleo cannot not be moderation).
I bet if you emailed her and asked if someone eating a paleo diet because they don't really like dairy, legumes, or grains is eating "in moderation" that she might say yes.
Personally, I have no problem with that idea (or that one can do a sort of paleo diet in a moderate way). I do wonder why one needs to follow a specific diet if it's how you would eat anyway, though. I did paleo for a bit and decided it was silly for me to do it because: (1) I think dairy and legumes are healthy and probably whole grains too -- specifically, I think including them tends to result in a more healthful diet for me (not for everyone, lots of people are lactose intolerant and some are celiac or other other negative reactions to grains); and (2) I don't really care about grains so it seemed a silly thing to give up as I naturally don't eat much of them (especially refined grains) if I am even remotely mindful and limit calories (which means I rarely eat sweet baked goods).Also, the authors application of moderation is totally in line with the diet as it is one where the theoretical person would be getting micros from whole foods, filling in macros with other foods, and then indulging in treats and what not to fill in left over calories.
The author said 100% strict paleo (like Whole30), which doesn't permit certain kinds of treats or even replacement "paleo treats."
I'm not sure what the author's rational was for considering paleo to be extreme, and based on her text about what moderation looks like, paleo falls within that.
Whole30 does have treats, they have recipes for all kinds of desserts. The author states that person includes treats in their diet, she didn't say what the criteria was for treats, and even said it was individual. So 100% strict paleo/Whole30 would fall within the definition.0 -
First, you said:
Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
doesn't matter how I see it to be frank...moderation is the absence of extremes by definition and I feel that most "diets" are extremes and that eliminating foods to lose weight because you just "can't" manage to lose weight if you eat them is extreme. ie atkins, paleo, south beach, 17 day, LCHF, clean etc.
*note diets is in quotes
"If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game."
Now, it seems like it is more rationale-dependent.
I'm now trying to figure out which one it is. I'm genuinely confused. Is everyone who eliminates something automatically excluded from "eating in moderation" or not?0 -
doesn't this really come down to what is said to new MFPers though? I mean quibble about the definitions all you want, we could go all day doing that and I'm not even against it. But I think the original point of this wasn't to tell you what is and isn't moderation. It was more about going on a thread that says "Help I'm not Losing Weight" and the two people who typically answer there.
Type 1 guy looks at the diary and says: "You shouldn't eat X. X is bad. X will keep you from losing weight. Here's a list of 'Clean' Y's that you should be eating cause they are 'good'." He says this even when the person's diary is showing a caloric deficit.
Type 2 guy looks at the diary and says: "I've noticed you measure by box-label serving size and cup measures and lots of the food choices you made are user entered and not verified. It's likely you are eating more than you think, consider buying a food scale so you know for sure you're within your count". He doesn't comment on the types of food because he knows that at the end of the day, you really could eat all donuts at a caloric deficit and lose weight. He would never advocate someone do that (as it's an extreme). But he recognizes that a person doesn't need to limit themselves to green veggies and lean chicken breast to lose weight.
Conversely, when someone comes on here with a post stating "I am eating paleo and not losing weight", our Type 1 guy usually goes after food choices, where our type 2 guy looks at caloric intake of those choices.
I mean, isn't it really more important, and certainly more beneficial to everyone on here, especially new people like me who don't necessarily know better, to simply agree that caloric deficit is what matters (moderation of high calorie foods without banning them altogether) and that 'clean' is a set of stricter rules for those people to whom optimal macros and micros are of a much higher priority and who feel wrong if they aren't getting that?0 -
First, you said:
Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
doesn't matter how I see it to be frank...moderation is the absence of extremes by definition and I feel that most "diets" are extremes and that eliminating foods to lose weight because you just "can't" manage to lose weight if you eat them is extreme. ie atkins, paleo, south beach, 17 day, LCHF, clean etc.
*note diets is in quotes
"If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game."
Now, it seems like it is more rationale-dependent.
I'm now trying to figure out which one it is. I'm genuinely confused. Is everyone who eliminates something automatically excluded from "eating in moderation" or not?
How I personally see vegetarians (due to moral/ethical choices) has no bearing on what moderation means or the fact that paleo, clean eating, atkins etc are not in line with the definition of moderation....
How people apply moderation to their WOE is totally subjective.
If you feel paleo is in line with moderation have at...I disagree.
If I feel paleo isn't moderate so be it...you apparently disagree...I think...you haven't really said one way or the other...
no wait you don't use the word moderate/moderation so you neither agree or disagree....so why are you arguing that paleo is moderate? or are you? I can never tell with you.
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Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
doesn't matter how I see it to be frank...moderation is the absence of extremes by definition and I feel that most "diets" are extremes and that eliminating foods to lose weight because you just "can't" manage to lose weight if you eat them is extreme. ie atkins, paleo, south beach, 17 day, LCHF, clean etc.
*note diets is in quotes
Ok, but the "extremes" part of what you just said is where things are arbitrary. ,Same for whatever's in between them.
This is not perverse word-twisting, by the way, it naturally follows from the definition. And although it is a point that hinges on semantics, it's not "academic" or theoretical.
Back to drinking for a minute: I had an English friend who was worried about the amount he was drinking, how it impacted his life. It was like 7-8 pints a day. He went to his (English) doctor, who said, "nah, you're fine, you're just drinking the wrong stuff. Quit drinking European beer and get back to English ale".
(That's an example of malpractice, probably, but also of how very different standards of moderation can be.)0 -
I'm very simple. I say what I mean. There is nothing to "tell" or "find." I've said this to you 10,000 times when you've insisted I meant things I didn't say and I specifically state that I didn't mean them, but meant what I said.
First, you said:
Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
doesn't matter how I see it to be frank...moderation is the absence of extremes by definition and I feel that most "diets" are extremes and that eliminating foods to lose weight because you just "can't" manage to lose weight if you eat them is extreme. ie atkins, paleo, south beach, 17 day, LCHF, clean etc.
*note diets is in quotes
"If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game."
Now, it seems like it is more rationale-dependent.
I'm now trying to figure out which one it is. I'm genuinely confused. Is everyone who eliminates something automatically excluded from "eating in moderation" or not?
How I personally see vegetarians (due to moral/ethical choices) has no bearing on what moderation means or the fact that paleo, clean eating, atkins etc are not in line with the definition of moderation....
How people apply moderation to their WOE is totally subjective.
If you feel paleo is in line with moderation have at...I disagree.
If I feel paleo isn't moderate so be it...you apparently disagree...I think...you haven't really said one way or the other...
no wait you don't use the word moderate/moderation so you neither agree or disagree....so why are you arguing that paleo is moderate? or are you? I can never tell with you.
I would like to know if you believe one can eliminate certain foods or food groups from the diet and still eat in moderation.
Either you'll answer or you won't. That's all there is to that.
0 -
Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
doesn't matter how I see it to be frank...moderation is the absence of extremes by definition and I feel that most "diets" are extremes and that eliminating foods to lose weight because you just "can't" manage to lose weight if you eat them is extreme. ie atkins, paleo, south beach, 17 day, LCHF, clean etc.
*note diets is in quotes
Ok, but the "extremes" part of what you just said is where things are arbitrary. ,Same for whatever's in between them.
This is not perverse word-twisting, by the way, it naturally follows from the definition. And although it is a point that hinges on semantics, it's not "academic" or theoretical.
Back to drinking for a minute: I had an English friend who was worried about the amount he was drinking, how it impacted his life. It was like 7-8 pints a day. He went to his (English) doctor, who said, "nah, you're fine, you're just drinking the wrong stuff. Quit drinking European beer and get back to English ale".
(That's an example of malpractice, probably, but also of how very different standards of moderation can be.)
and that is why we have all said...there is one definition of moderation but the application is subjective.
my purse example...2k on a purse is not moderate spending if you make 25k a year but it is moderate if you make 2.5m or 250k...or whatever...subjective application.0 -
Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
doesn't matter how I see it to be frank...moderation is the absence of extremes by definition and I feel that most "diets" are extremes and that eliminating foods to lose weight because you just "can't" manage to lose weight if you eat them is extreme. ie atkins, paleo, south beach, 17 day, LCHF, clean etc.
*note diets is in quotes
Ok, but the "extremes" part of what you just said is where things are arbitrary. ,Same for whatever's in between them.
This is not perverse word-twisting, by the way, it naturally follows from the definition. And although it is a point that hinges on semantics, it's not "academic" or theoretical.
Back to drinking for a minute: I had an English friend who was worried about the amount he was drinking, how it impacted his life. It was like 7-8 pints a day. He went to his (English) doctor, who said, "nah, you're fine, you're just drinking the wrong stuff. Quit drinking European beer and get back to English ale".
(That's an example of malpractice, probably, but also of how very different standards of moderation can be.)
and that is why we have all said...there is one definition of moderation but the application is subjective.
my purse example...2k on a purse is not moderate spending if you make 25k a year but it is moderate if you make 2.5m or 250k...or whatever...subjective application.
So how do I know what kind of purse you have?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
It's not a straw man. Someone brought up a past post of mine in which I put forth a few of the many, many definitions of "moderation" I've read on these boards. I wouldn't have compiled the list unless people had adamantly argued that everyone defines it the same way and nobody deviates from that definition.lemurcat12 wrote: »I'm completely confused as to what the argument even is.
As the author of the link in the OP said, the issue is that people claim "moderation" is an excuse to eat poorly or 100% fast food or Twinkies or the like, and that's obviously not consistent with the moderate approach nor what anyone recommends.
No one claimed everyone had to do moderation or that moderation is a "way of eating" from which it was possible to determine the exact amount of "treats" you eat per day. Those are strawmen.
The fact that some exercise moderation by eating a little something they categorize as a treat every day and some do it by eating treats only on the weekend or in some cases on rare occasions like holidays does not mean that people are applying different definitions. They are just applying the definition to their own life in their own way.Until a person describes how they eat "in moderation" nobody else can know how they eat.
Yes, of course. No one has said otherwise. So what is the "argument" about? You seem to be suggesting that a definition is meaningless unless it tells us precisely how someone eats. That is not my particular objection to the "clean eating" term. Even if it were applied consistently (no highly processed or fast food, say), it would not tell me how someone eats.
The same is true when someone uses "moderation" to describe their habits, though.
No, it is different. I spelled out how I see it as different in the part you did not quote.0 -
I'm very simple. I say what I mean. There is nothing to "tell" or "find." I've said this to you 10,000 times when you've insisted I meant things I didn't say and I specifically state that I didn't mean them, but meant what I said.
First, you said:
Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
doesn't matter how I see it to be frank...moderation is the absence of extremes by definition and I feel that most "diets" are extremes and that eliminating foods to lose weight because you just "can't" manage to lose weight if you eat them is extreme. ie atkins, paleo, south beach, 17 day, LCHF, clean etc.
*note diets is in quotes
"If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game."
Now, it seems like it is more rationale-dependent.
I'm now trying to figure out which one it is. I'm genuinely confused. Is everyone who eliminates something automatically excluded from "eating in moderation" or not?
How I personally see vegetarians (due to moral/ethical choices) has no bearing on what moderation means or the fact that paleo, clean eating, atkins etc are not in line with the definition of moderation....
How people apply moderation to their WOE is totally subjective.
If you feel paleo is in line with moderation have at...I disagree.
If I feel paleo isn't moderate so be it...you apparently disagree...I think...you haven't really said one way or the other...
no wait you don't use the word moderate/moderation so you neither agree or disagree....so why are you arguing that paleo is moderate? or are you? I can never tell with you.
I would like to know if you believe one can eliminate certain foods or food groups from the diet and still eat in moderation.
Either you'll answer or you won't. That's all there is to that.
k then you mean what you say...you don't use the word moderate ...then why are you in here discussing moderation?????? confusing...
and to answer your question....What do I believe/feel
If a person eliminates food for medical reasons ie diabetic/sugar or gluten/celiac no it's not extreme as it is a requirement for health.
If a person eliminates food due to dislike no it's not extreme.
If a person eliminates food due to a religion no it's not extreme (people take their religions very seriously and I am not messing with that)
If a person eliminate food for any other reason than stated above yes I feel it is extreme. But that's me.
So yes I feel that if a vegetarian is that because of moral/ethics it's extreme and not moderate. esp since it can have long lasting detrimental effects on their children (while developing in the womb) if they aren't careful.
My feelings on it tho have no bearing on the actual definition of it just the application of it...
0 -
Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
doesn't matter how I see it to be frank...moderation is the absence of extremes by definition and I feel that most "diets" are extremes and that eliminating foods to lose weight because you just "can't" manage to lose weight if you eat them is extreme. ie atkins, paleo, south beach, 17 day, LCHF, clean etc.
*note diets is in quotes
Ok, but the "extremes" part of what you just said is where things are arbitrary. ,Same for whatever's in between them.
This is not perverse word-twisting, by the way, it naturally follows from the definition. And although it is a point that hinges on semantics, it's not "academic" or theoretical.
Back to drinking for a minute: I had an English friend who was worried about the amount he was drinking, how it impacted his life. It was like 7-8 pints a day. He went to his (English) doctor, who said, "nah, you're fine, you're just drinking the wrong stuff. Quit drinking European beer and get back to English ale".
(That's an example of malpractice, probably, but also of how very different standards of moderation can be.)
and that is why we have all said...there is one definition of moderation but the application is subjective.
my purse example...2k on a purse is not moderate spending if you make 25k a year but it is moderate if you make 2.5m or 250k...or whatever...subjective application.
So how do I know what kind of purse you have?
Why do you need to know what kind of purse she has? If she says she carries a purse, that should be the end of it. If she says, "I have a purse and it isn't working for me" then you might want to know more details about it. Why does she feel it isn't working - is it too small? Not enough pockets? Doesn't like the strap? Doesn't match her shoes? That's equivalent to asking a noob to open their diary so someone can give them advice about weighing their food, increasing protein for satiety, etc.
If she says, "it's a Coach purse and I heard that Gucci purses are better", then I think that is an extreme approach more in line with saying, "You need to eat clean in order to lose weight"
0 -
Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
doesn't matter how I see it to be frank...moderation is the absence of extremes by definition and I feel that most "diets" are extremes and that eliminating foods to lose weight because you just "can't" manage to lose weight if you eat them is extreme. ie atkins, paleo, south beach, 17 day, LCHF, clean etc.
*note diets is in quotes
Ok, but the "extremes" part of what you just said is where things are arbitrary. ,Same for whatever's in between them.
This is not perverse word-twisting, by the way, it naturally follows from the definition. And although it is a point that hinges on semantics, it's not "academic" or theoretical.
Back to drinking for a minute: I had an English friend who was worried about the amount he was drinking, how it impacted his life. It was like 7-8 pints a day. He went to his (English) doctor, who said, "nah, you're fine, you're just drinking the wrong stuff. Quit drinking European beer and get back to English ale".
(That's an example of malpractice, probably, but also of how very different standards of moderation can be.)
and that is why we have all said...there is one definition of moderation but the application is subjective.
my purse example...2k on a purse is not moderate spending if you make 25k a year but it is moderate if you make 2.5m or 250k...or whatever...subjective application.
So how do I know what kind of purse you have?
Not the purse, the income if anything. The purse can be part of a moderate purchase, if your income allows for it.
A 1500 kcal lunch can be part of a moderate diet, if your calories and macros allow for it.
In contrast, there's clean eaters saying you absolutely can't eat processed things as a clean eater, like protein powder, while other people calling themselves clean eaters throw back 3 shakes per day.0 -
clgaram720 wrote: »doesn't this really come down to what is said to new MFPers though? I mean quibble about the definitions all you want, we could go all day doing that and I'm not even against it. But I think the original point of this wasn't to tell you what is and isn't moderation. It was more about going on a thread that says "Help I'm not Losing Weight" and the two people who typically answer there.
Type 1 guy looks at the diary and says: "You shouldn't eat X. X is bad. X will keep you from losing weight. Here's a list of 'Clean' Y's that you should be eating cause they are 'good'." He says this even when the person's diary is showing a caloric deficit.
Type 2 guy looks at the diary and says: "I've noticed you measure by box-label serving size and cup measures and lots of the food choices you made are user entered and not verified. It's likely you are eating more than you think, consider buying a food scale so you know for sure you're within your count". He doesn't comment on the types of food because he knows that at the end of the day, you really could eat all donuts at a caloric deficit and lose weight. He would never advocate someone do that (as it's an extreme). But he recognizes that a person doesn't need to limit themselves to green veggies and lean chicken breast to lose weight.
Conversely, when someone comes on here with a post stating "I am eating paleo and not losing weight", our Type 1 guy usually goes after food choices, where our type 2 guy looks at caloric intake of those choices.
I mean, isn't it really more important, and certainly more beneficial to everyone on here, especially new people like me who don't necessarily know better, to simply agree that caloric deficit is what matters (moderation of high calorie foods without banning them altogether) and that 'clean' is a set of stricter rules for those people to whom optimal macros and micros are of a much higher priority and who feel wrong if they aren't getting that?
A caloric deficit is what matters to lose weight, but that is not dependent on eating high calorie foods in moderation. Yes, you will probably need to moderate those foods to stay within your calorie count, but there is nothing wrong with eliminating them completely either.
It's personal preference based on dietary adherence. If having a portion of a food you love keeps you on track and within your deficit, great. If eating a portion of a food you love leads to more portions and overeating, then eliminating the food completely might be the thing to do to keep yourself on track.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »
Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
doesn't matter how I see it to be frank...moderation is the absence of extremes by definition and I feel that most "diets" are extremes and that eliminating foods to lose weight because you just "can't" manage to lose weight if you eat them is extreme. ie atkins, paleo, south beach, 17 day, LCHF, clean etc.
*note diets is in quotes
Ok, but the "extremes" part of what you just said is where things are arbitrary. ,Same for whatever's in between them.
This is not perverse word-twisting, by the way, it naturally follows from the definition. And although it is a point that hinges on semantics, it's not "academic" or theoretical.
Back to drinking for a minute: I had an English friend who was worried about the amount he was drinking, how it impacted his life. It was like 7-8 pints a day. He went to his (English) doctor, who said, "nah, you're fine, you're just drinking the wrong stuff. Quit drinking European beer and get back to English ale".
(That's an example of malpractice, probably, but also of how very different standards of moderation can be.)
and that is why we have all said...there is one definition of moderation but the application is subjective.
my purse example...2k on a purse is not moderate spending if you make 25k a year but it is moderate if you make 2.5m or 250k...or whatever...subjective application.
So how do I know what kind of purse you have?
Not the purse, the income if anything. The purse can be part of a moderate purchase, if your income allows for it.
Right, ok, the income. (I'd guess at their income and idea of moderation by whether it was Gucci or whatever.) Just knowing she has a purse doesn't tell me anything useful.0 -
Indeed, they have. That is how all this began two threads back.lemurcat12 wrote: »
It's not a straw man. Someone brought up a past post of mine in which I put forth a few of the many, many definitions of "moderation" I've read on these boards. I wouldn't have compiled the list unless people had adamantly argued that everyone defines it the same way and nobody deviates from that definition.lemurcat12 wrote: »I'm completely confused as to what the argument even is.
As the author of the link in the OP said, the issue is that people claim "moderation" is an excuse to eat poorly or 100% fast food or Twinkies or the like, and that's obviously not consistent with the moderate approach nor what anyone recommends.
No one claimed everyone had to do moderation or that moderation is a "way of eating" from which it was possible to determine the exact amount of "treats" you eat per day. Those are strawmen.
The fact that some exercise moderation by eating a little something they categorize as a treat every day and some do it by eating treats only on the weekend or in some cases on rare occasions like holidays does not mean that people are applying different definitions. They are just applying the definition to their own life in their own way.Until a person describes how they eat "in moderation" nobody else can know how they eat.
Someone who actually, genuinely wanted to know just what the heck people meant when they said people should "eat in moderation" - someone who was in no way attempting to start a fight - couldn't get an answer. It was an honest question.
I've happily answered this question many times.
To me it means (1) figure out your goals, (2) think about what good nutrition involves, (3) eat in a way that serves those goals/good nutrition, and (4) eat whatever you want otherwise.
I'm sure there's more to it that I could clarify if someone asked follow up questions.
But it is self-evidence [ed. self evident, of course, ugh] that moderation does not mean eating only Twinkies or ignoring nutritional considerations.The thread brought up early on in this thread was one in which people insisted that EVERYONE uses the same definition. I posted a few of the many, many definitions of moderation that have been posted here. At that point people said, "Well, they are using the word incorrectly" and "Of course it will be different for everyone."
People ARE using the same basic definition. They are applying the definition to their own lives differently, because they have different tastes and goals and calorie needs.That doesn't help someone who is trying to figure it out when they see it. So, they'd have to ask, "How are you defining that?"
I don't actually believe anyone is having trouble understanding what moderation means, for the reasons Francl stated upthread. No one is so dumb that she thinks eating mostly cookies is moderation. She might lie to herself, but if she is honest, she knows better.
No one has ever once said that you know what someone is eating for breakfast, lunch, and dinner just because you know she eats "in moderation."0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
It's not a straw man. Someone brought up a past post of mine in which I put forth a few of the many, many definitions of "moderation" I've read on these boards. I wouldn't have compiled the list unless people had adamantly argued that everyone defines it the same way and nobody deviates from that definition.lemurcat12 wrote: »I'm completely confused as to what the argument even is.
As the author of the link in the OP said, the issue is that people claim "moderation" is an excuse to eat poorly or 100% fast food or Twinkies or the like, and that's obviously not consistent with the moderate approach nor what anyone recommends.
No one claimed everyone had to do moderation or that moderation is a "way of eating" from which it was possible to determine the exact amount of "treats" you eat per day. Those are strawmen.
The fact that some exercise moderation by eating a little something they categorize as a treat every day and some do it by eating treats only on the weekend or in some cases on rare occasions like holidays does not mean that people are applying different definitions. They are just applying the definition to their own life in their own way.Until a person describes how they eat "in moderation" nobody else can know how they eat.
Yes, of course. No one has said otherwise. So what is the "argument" about? You seem to be suggesting that a definition is meaningless unless it tells us precisely how someone eats. That is not my particular objection to the "clean eating" term. Even if it were applied consistently (no highly processed or fast food, say), it would not tell me how someone eats.
The same is true when someone uses "moderation" to describe their habits, though.
No, it is different. I spelled out how I see it as different in the part you did not quote.
The part I didn't quote was your description of what you don't like about the "clean eating" concept, that's why I didn't include it in a discussion about the "moderation" concept.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »
Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
doesn't matter how I see it to be frank...moderation is the absence of extremes by definition and I feel that most "diets" are extremes and that eliminating foods to lose weight because you just "can't" manage to lose weight if you eat them is extreme. ie atkins, paleo, south beach, 17 day, LCHF, clean etc.
*note diets is in quotes
Ok, but the "extremes" part of what you just said is where things are arbitrary. ,Same for whatever's in between them.
This is not perverse word-twisting, by the way, it naturally follows from the definition. And although it is a point that hinges on semantics, it's not "academic" or theoretical.
Back to drinking for a minute: I had an English friend who was worried about the amount he was drinking, how it impacted his life. It was like 7-8 pints a day. He went to his (English) doctor, who said, "nah, you're fine, you're just drinking the wrong stuff. Quit drinking European beer and get back to English ale".
(That's an example of malpractice, probably, but also of how very different standards of moderation can be.)
and that is why we have all said...there is one definition of moderation but the application is subjective.
my purse example...2k on a purse is not moderate spending if you make 25k a year but it is moderate if you make 2.5m or 250k...or whatever...subjective application.
So how do I know what kind of purse you have?
Not the purse, the income if anything. The purse can be part of a moderate purchase, if your income allows for it.
Right, ok, the income. (I'd guess at their income and idea of moderation by whether it was Gucci or whatever.) Just knowing she has a purse doesn't tell me anything useful.
It does. It tells you that she doesn't have some weird dogma to never buy any purses because her horoscope told her it was bad karma.0 -
clgaram720 wrote: »You know that phenomena where you read/say the same word over and over and over and it starts to sound wrong when you say it, or weird? I'm getting that feeling with "moderate" now.
The funny thing is I used to read a political forum where it seemed everyone (whether conservative, libertarian, liberal, or "progressive") would slam moderates. I felt compelled to defend moderation there too. ;-)0 -
stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »
Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
doesn't matter how I see it to be frank...moderation is the absence of extremes by definition and I feel that most "diets" are extremes and that eliminating foods to lose weight because you just "can't" manage to lose weight if you eat them is extreme. ie atkins, paleo, south beach, 17 day, LCHF, clean etc.
*note diets is in quotes
Ok, but the "extremes" part of what you just said is where things are arbitrary. ,Same for whatever's in between them.
This is not perverse word-twisting, by the way, it naturally follows from the definition. And although it is a point that hinges on semantics, it's not "academic" or theoretical.
Back to drinking for a minute: I had an English friend who was worried about the amount he was drinking, how it impacted his life. It was like 7-8 pints a day. He went to his (English) doctor, who said, "nah, you're fine, you're just drinking the wrong stuff. Quit drinking European beer and get back to English ale".
(That's an example of malpractice, probably, but also of how very different standards of moderation can be.)
and that is why we have all said...there is one definition of moderation but the application is subjective.
my purse example...2k on a purse is not moderate spending if you make 25k a year but it is moderate if you make 2.5m or 250k...or whatever...subjective application.
So how do I know what kind of purse you have?
Not the purse, the income if anything. The purse can be part of a moderate purchase, if your income allows for it.
Right, ok, the income. (I'd guess at their income and idea of moderation by whether it was Gucci or whatever.) Just knowing she has a purse doesn't tell me anything useful.
It does. It tells you that she doesn't have some weird dogma to never buy any purses because her horoscope told her it was bad karma.
Having criticisms of "clean eating" doesn't clarify what "moderation" means.
And moderation is not "self-evident", it's relative and subjective.0 -
I'm very simple. I say what I mean. There is nothing to "tell" or "find." I've said this to you 10,000 times when you've insisted I meant things I didn't say and I specifically state that I didn't mean them, but meant what I said.
First, you said:
Paleo people who eliminate something aren't eating in moderation, but vegetarians who eliminate something are?Is there some definition for what constitutes "extreme"?
Since moderation is avoiding extremes (to some), what constitutes "extreme" as it applies to a diet?
But that's the rub, isn't it? For something to be considered moderate, it has to fall in the middle of two opposing points on the spectrum and is subject to the definition of the points. In politics, someone would be considered politically moderate if they fell between liberal and conservative. But you can also move the end points along the spectrum to identify someone who is moderately conservative or moderately liberal.
When it comes to diet, it seems the author is trying to do two separate things: define ways of eating as moderate, and define consumption as moderate. But she keeps using different spectrums - in keeping with the paleo diet, she uses one spectrum based on food restrictions to say it is not moderate, but later defines moderation using the spectrum of consumption of whole foods vs treats in which paleo could easily fall in the middle.
In keeping with the diet theme, someone upthread mentioned alcohol consumption, and I seem to remember that there was an actual number of drinks and frequency of consumption which would define someone as a moderate drinker (although I can't remember what those numbers were to save my life).
For diet, it would seem that without some consensus as to what a moderate intake is (as in portions and frequency), it does make it a bit ambiguous. I don't think that applying it by portion size would necessarily be accurate, as it would not account for differences in TDEE, and frequency would also be subject to things like lifestyle and portion size.
I would imagine the only real way to define moderation in terms of diet would be to view it in terms of percentages of foods consumed in overall diet over time (this is looking at moderation in terms of consumption/frequency because I think trying to define it by dietary composition is bunk). It would definitely have to have some longevity though to account for things like holidays and vacations which in the short term would skew the data.
sadly, you are over complicating a simple concept.
No, I'm rejecting your attempt to exclude people who follow different ways of eating from being considered as practicing moderation, because you are applying the one definition provided by the author arbitrarily and incorrectly. And you can't really define moderation without identifying the opposing ends of the spectrum it falls within, otherwise it's a completely subjective concept. If it is subjective, then what is or is not moderation will fall to the individual to determine for themselves, and statements like "100% strict paleo is not moderation, it is extreme" is a personal opinion, not a statement of fact.
does paleo eliminate food from it's plan? If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game.
application is subjective. If I bought a 2000$ purse making 25k a year that is not a moderate purchase...but if I make 250k a year it's a moderate purchase.
If I eliminate dairy from my diet due to being lactose intolerant that is not extreme....but if I get rid of milk cause of an eating plan to "make me better.." that is extreme.
Someone up thread said elimination depended on a "good reason." Is that how you see it, too? If you have a "good reason" then you can practice elimination and eat in moderation, but if you don't have a "good reason" then you can't?
doesn't matter how I see it to be frank...moderation is the absence of extremes by definition and I feel that most "diets" are extremes and that eliminating foods to lose weight because you just "can't" manage to lose weight if you eat them is extreme. ie atkins, paleo, south beach, 17 day, LCHF, clean etc.
*note diets is in quotes
"If you answer yes then it's extreme due to "elimination" which is an extreme no matter how you play the word game."
Now, it seems like it is more rationale-dependent.
I'm now trying to figure out which one it is. I'm genuinely confused. Is everyone who eliminates something automatically excluded from "eating in moderation" or not?
How I personally see vegetarians (due to moral/ethical choices) has no bearing on what moderation means or the fact that paleo, clean eating, atkins etc are not in line with the definition of moderation....
How people apply moderation to their WOE is totally subjective.
If you feel paleo is in line with moderation have at...I disagree.
If I feel paleo isn't moderate so be it...you apparently disagree...I think...you haven't really said one way or the other...
no wait you don't use the word moderate/moderation so you neither agree or disagree....so why are you arguing that paleo is moderate? or are you? I can never tell with you.
I would like to know if you believe one can eliminate certain foods or food groups from the diet and still eat in moderation.
Either you'll answer or you won't. That's all there is to that.
k then you mean what you say...you don't use the word moderate ...then why are you in here discussing moderation?????? confusing...
and to answer your question....What do I believe/feel
If a person eliminates food for medical reasons ie diabetic/sugar or gluten/celiac no it's not extreme as it is a requirement for health.
If a person eliminates food due to dislike no it's not extreme.
If a person eliminates food due to a religion no it's not extreme (people take their religions very seriously and I am not messing with that)
If a person eliminate food for any other reason than stated above yes I feel it is extreme. But that's me.
So yes I feel that if a vegetarian is that because of moral/ethics it's extreme and not moderate. esp since it can have long lasting detrimental effects on their children (while developing in the womb) if they aren't careful.
My feelings on it tho have no bearing on the actual definition of it just the application of it...
Ok, so it's rationale-dependent. Someone else said something similar, only they used the words "good reason."
New question:
*Assuming that the definition of moderation is "avoiding extremes," which you're on board with...*
If you feel that it's "extreme", it cannot be "in moderation" - correct?
0 -
That, too, depends on who you ask. Some people insist there is no such thing as healthy foods or treats. All food is the same.All I want to know is, what the hell is a "treat"?
One poster has suggested that there is no such thing as treats in moderation because they don't exist under that concept.
Others say you can have a few treats, but never have been pinned down on the definition.
Me, I would define a treat as any junk food or any food that is just wicked high in calories and not the kind of thing one could eat a lot and still get their vitamins and minerals: cake, tarts, candy, cornbread, pizza, juice, etc. those types of things would be treats to me.
Oh, I missed newmeadow's comment.
I think by "treat" people are talking generally about foods that are high in calories when compared with their nutritional benefits. I consider ice cream a treat, but also cheese (which I sometimes have after dinner instead of ice cream) or maybe having something like pulled pork or bacon or prime rib as my protein source, instead of my more usual choices. Or any restaurant meal that is high cal, even though it may have lots of nutritional value.0
This discussion has been closed.
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