Moderation
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The problem is that lots of people have defined it, but they've all defined it ver differently.
I would be the person who argued that. It's because it's true.Oh, I like this one! There are some folks that think that moderation "can mean anything" but this article nails it down. It is the absence of extremes. Nice. Thanks for sharing it!
When I first started reading on MFP, I was trying very hard to figure out what the heck people meant when they said "clean" or "in moderation" because one person would say this was clean and another would say that was clean, while one person saying moderation was this and another was saying moderation was that.
You can argue that both terms have definitions, but are carried out differently. That really doesn't help the person who is trying to figure out exactly what it means.
The fact of the matter is that saying "clean" or "in moderation" just isn't specific. It has no meaning that anyone could pinpoint and say "Everyone who says they eat this way does X."
I don't mind people using the words "clean" or "in moderation." I get what they mean in a general sense. But when they use those words, I don't know exactly how they are defining them. Most of the time, the general sense works just fine. Occasionally, though, I need a little more.
"I've been eating clean and I'm gaining weight!"
"I've been eating in moderation and I'm gaining weight!"
I'm going to need more. It doesn't really explain how they're actually eating.
If someone asks about how to eat treats "in moderation", there will be 20 different ways to do it.
As many posters have many meanings for each term, specifics will be required.
I have the same issue with both terms - "clean" and "in moderation" and am not slamming either group or trying to make fun of either group or have a fight.
I never suggested that anyone should stop using those terms! It's just that they aren't really clearly describing a way of eating.
The difference is that there's a specific definition to 'moderation'. Good luck finding one for 'clean eating'.
Maybe the group of people in this thread will agree upon a definition and then people would know what you all meant, but not everyone who uses the term is using it the way you do.
Clean eaters could say that "clean" has a definition, but it is carried out differently by different people and some people are using it wrong. It still doesn't allow me to know what the person who says, "I'm eating clean" actually means.
Saying, "This word has a definition, but is carried out differently by different people and some people are using the word wrong" - that doesn't help the person who reads it to know what it means.
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The problem is that lots of people have defined it, but they've all defined it ver differently.
I would be the person who argued that. It's because it's true.Oh, I like this one! There are some folks that think that moderation "can mean anything" but this article nails it down. It is the absence of extremes. Nice. Thanks for sharing it!
When I first started reading on MFP, I was trying very hard to figure out what the heck people meant when they said "clean" or "in moderation" because one person would say this was clean and another would say that was clean, while one person saying moderation was this and another was saying moderation was that.
You can argue that both terms have definitions, but are carried out differently. That really doesn't help the person who is trying to figure out exactly what it means.
The fact of the matter is that saying "clean" or "in moderation" just isn't specific. It has no meaning that anyone could pinpoint and say "Everyone who says they eat this way does X."
I don't mind people using the words "clean" or "in moderation." I get what they mean in a general sense. But when they use those words, I don't know exactly how they are defining them. Most of the time, the general sense works just fine. Occasionally, though, I need a little more.
"I've been eating clean and I'm gaining weight!"
"I've been eating in moderation and I'm gaining weight!"
I'm going to need more. It doesn't really explain how they're actually eating.
If someone asks about how to eat treats "in moderation", there will be 20 different ways to do it.
As many posters have many meanings for each term, specifics will be required.
I have the same issue with both terms - "clean" and "in moderation" and am not slamming either group or trying to make fun of either group or have a fight.
I never suggested that anyone should stop using those terms! It's just that they aren't really clearly describing a way of eating.
The difference is that there's a specific definition to 'moderation'. Good luck finding one for 'clean eating'.
Maybe the group of people in this thread will agree upon a definition and then people would know what you all meant, but not everyone who uses the term is using it the way you do.
Clean eaters could say that "clean" has a definition, but it is carried out differently by different people and some people are using it wrong. It still doesn't allow me to know what the person who says, "I'm eating clean" actually means.
Saying, "This word has a definition, but is carried out differently by different people and some people are using the word wrong" - that doesn't help the person who reads it to know what it means.
nope, there is one definition for moderation, which is the one listed in the article. Just because you believe there are many different definitions, does not make it so.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »"I've been eating clean and I'm gaining weight!"
"I've been eating in moderation and I'm gaining weight!"
I'm going to need more. It doesn't really explain how they're actually eating.
True, but the difference is that I've never seen the former.If someone asks about how to eat treats "in moderation", there will be 20 different ways to do it.
Because people are different, and "in moderation" really just means "not to excess" in this context.
And IMO, moderation does not describe a way of eating. It describes an approach.
Yes I think of it as an idea...no food is out of bounds, they have their place but the decision is not based on unfounded fear with said foods.
If I only eat certain foods only for celebration I'm moderating.
If I portion out 200cals/day for sometimes food I'm moderating.
Without fear.
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Mmm I guess I was trying to say that those people are using the wrong word. For example, I can keep calling concrete "cement" but that doesn't make me right. So I'm trying to say that those people may be calling it "moderate", but that doesn't make their diet truely moderate, but it might make them wrong. Which would perpetuate confusion, but not change the definition.
Another example might be similar to someone saying they only eat low GI foods. Meanwhile they're eating a lot of high GI foods. That just makes their statement incorrect, didn't change the diet they're referring to.
Agreed. There are ways of eating that are just not "moderate," where the person would be incorrect in claiming that's how they ate, whether you felt like calling them on it or not. "Clean" is sufficiently vague that anyone could claim to eat "clean." That's why I'd feel silly claiming to "eat clean" if I ate pre-packaged granola bars or Chipotle or lots of store-bought bacon or deli meat, but lots of people who claim to "eat clean" seem to, and they aren't wrong. Nor are those who make it identical to paleo or vegan or low carb. It just doesn't really mean anything except what you self-define it as based on whatever foods you've decided are good and bad. As people have widely different ideas of what those foods are, it ends up just not being a term that communicates much.
Moderation also will be used for vastly different diets, but again that's because it's not supposed to be a diet or convey that you eat certain foods and not others. It's an approach.0 -
The definitions don't define levels of what moderation and/or clean are, so those levels; will always be opinions.0
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MondayJune22nd2015 wrote: »The definitions don't define levels of what moderation and/or clean are, so those levels; will always be opinions.
I actually can't begin to comprehend how you're not getting the difference
Or are you being purposefully obtuse for the sake of discussion?
It's actually weird0 -
If I say, "I eat treats in moderation," what does that mean? So we know if that means once or twice a year? Every day? With every meal? Do we know if it's a time thing or an amount one? Doe we know if it's always the same thing or various things?lemurcat12 wrote: »"I've been eating clean and I'm gaining weight!"
"I've been eating in moderation and I'm gaining weight!"
I'm going to need more. It doesn't really explain how they're actually eating.
True, but the difference is that I've never seen the former.If someone asks about how to eat treats "in moderation", there will be 20 different ways to do it.
Because people are different, and "in moderation" really just means "not to excess" in this context.
And IMO, moderation does not describe a way of eating. It describes an approach.
We don't. We don't know what it means except that the person who said it believes they're eating "in moderation."
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This demonstrates what I mean.WinoGelato wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »Loved the article! Thanks for posting.
As for the side argument with people parsing words?
I used to go to school with this girl who used big words incorrectly all the time. Her misuse of the word didn't change what it fundamentally meant and did not suddenly mean that the definition of it was murky.
Just sayin'.
If you avoid the extremes, you're practicing moderation.
Exactly, it's like people who say feminism is man-hating because some people who call themselves that term behave that way or people who call themselves vegetarian but still eat meat. The definitions of the words don't change just because some people use them incorrectly.
This seems in direct contrast to your earlier post to which I replied. It said "There was a discussion here recently where some people were trying to argue that moderation has a million different definitions, just like "clean."
"clean" has a dictionary definition too.
One that actually relates to "clean eating"?
Not that I've seen. But then I've never seen a dictionary definition for "moderation" that relates to eating either. Which was my point.
The nice thing about moderation is that it is an approach which can be applied to a number of different concepts.
Moderation in eating
Moderation in spending
Moderation in drinking
The definition of no extremes is applicable in all of those examples. How an individual moderates their eating, spending, and drinking may differ from person to person - but the overall concept is fairly clear, the avoidance of excess or extremes.
Conversely, the word "clean" is an adjective that has very different meanings depending on how it is used.
Clean house
Clean eating
Clean bill of health
I don't believe it is possible to come up with a singular definition for the word "clean" which is applicable to all of those concepts.
One person could say they spend in moderation, but they define it as having three homes, one yacht and one airplane. Another person might feel that spending in moderation is buying their clothes at Wal-Mart instead of Goodwill. Both can say they're spending in moderation, but you don't know what they mean until you ask.
One person's clean house may mean doing spring cleaning on a weekly basis while another has it meaning they moved junk from the floor to the counter.
You just don't know the specifics until you ask.
But we're talking about food. We all have a set limit of calories to maintain a healthy weight. Sure, yours might be lower than mine so we might not have the same definition of what 'moderation' is, but there's still a limit above which it won't be moderation for you anymore - if you're starving all day because you ate 5 cookies, you know that it's not moderation for you, for example. But someone who exercises a lot could easily fit that in their day, for example... that would be moderation for him/her.
So I would say that in a way, when it comes to food, 'moderation is pretty self explanatory'.0 -
This demonstrates what I mean.WinoGelato wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »Loved the article! Thanks for posting.
As for the side argument with people parsing words?
I used to go to school with this girl who used big words incorrectly all the time. Her misuse of the word didn't change what it fundamentally meant and did not suddenly mean that the definition of it was murky.
Just sayin'.
If you avoid the extremes, you're practicing moderation.
Exactly, it's like people who say feminism is man-hating because some people who call themselves that term behave that way or people who call themselves vegetarian but still eat meat. The definitions of the words don't change just because some people use them incorrectly.
This seems in direct contrast to your earlier post to which I replied. It said "There was a discussion here recently where some people were trying to argue that moderation has a million different definitions, just like "clean."
"clean" has a dictionary definition too.
One that actually relates to "clean eating"?
Not that I've seen. But then I've never seen a dictionary definition for "moderation" that relates to eating either. Which was my point.
The nice thing about moderation is that it is an approach which can be applied to a number of different concepts.
Moderation in eating
Moderation in spending
Moderation in drinking
The definition of no extremes is applicable in all of those examples. How an individual moderates their eating, spending, and drinking may differ from person to person - but the overall concept is fairly clear, the avoidance of excess or extremes.
Conversely, the word "clean" is an adjective that has very different meanings depending on how it is used.
Clean house
Clean eating
Clean bill of health
I don't believe it is possible to come up with a singular definition for the word "clean" which is applicable to all of those concepts.
One person could say they spend in moderation, but they define it as having three homes, one yacht and one airplane. Another person might feel that spending in moderation is buying their clothes at Wal-Mart instead of Goodwill. Both can say they're spending in moderation, but you don't know what they mean until you ask.
One person's clean house may mean doing spring cleaning on a weekly basis while another has it meaning they moved junk from the floor to the counter.
You just don't know the specifics until you ask.
The point that I am making is that the word moderation - the absence of excess or extremes, is consistent, regardless of what you are trying to moderate. The specifics of my application of moderate spending compared to a Kardashian for example, or my tolerance for moderate alcohol consumption compared to Lamar Odom, may be different.
The word "clean" though does not even have the same definition which can be applied to different objects. Clean house, clean eating, clean bill of health. All completely different concepts and the word clean cannot be consistently defined with them.
So again - I agree that the individual's application of moderation will vary based on their own specific requirements/tolerances - but the definition of the word is consistent and clear. The same cannot be said for "clean" which not only has inconsistent applications but also variable definitions.
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One can have a broad definition for moderation, because moderation, is, well, broad. It can include bread and wine, but not too much of either.
To eat clean means to exclude something. It is specific and sharp. What is that thing? No-one can agree. Is bread in or out?
@ndj1979 the Golden or Aristotelian Mean predates the man. He is an early philosopher whose works somehow managed to survive flood, fire, and ignorance, and he reflected a commonly held Athenian ideal.0 -
If I say, "I eat treats in moderation," what does that mean? So we know if that means once or twice a year? Every day? With every meal? Do we know if it's a time thing or an amount one? Doe we know if it's always the same thing or various things?lemurcat12 wrote: »"I've been eating clean and I'm gaining weight!"
"I've been eating in moderation and I'm gaining weight!"
I'm going to need more. It doesn't really explain how they're actually eating.
True, but the difference is that I've never seen the former.If someone asks about how to eat treats "in moderation", there will be 20 different ways to do it.
Because people are different, and "in moderation" really just means "not to excess" in this context.
And IMO, moderation does not describe a way of eating. It describes an approach.
We don't. We don't know what it means except that the person who said it believes they're eating "in moderation."
I think the point is that the answers to these questions don't matter, whereas when someone says he is eating clean, there are specifics involved in that. It doesn't matter that someone might eat clean differently, it just matters that there is a specific definition.0 -
And I'd say that when someone is new and just begins reading the boards, they're not going know exactly what people mean.
This demonstrates what I mean.WinoGelato wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »Loved the article! Thanks for posting.
As for the side argument with people parsing words?
I used to go to school with this girl who used big words incorrectly all the time. Her misuse of the word didn't change what it fundamentally meant and did not suddenly mean that the definition of it was murky.
Just sayin'.
If you avoid the extremes, you're practicing moderation.
Exactly, it's like people who say feminism is man-hating because some people who call themselves that term behave that way or people who call themselves vegetarian but still eat meat. The definitions of the words don't change just because some people use them incorrectly.
This seems in direct contrast to your earlier post to which I replied. It said "There was a discussion here recently where some people were trying to argue that moderation has a million different definitions, just like "clean."
"clean" has a dictionary definition too.
One that actually relates to "clean eating"?
Not that I've seen. But then I've never seen a dictionary definition for "moderation" that relates to eating either. Which was my point.
The nice thing about moderation is that it is an approach which can be applied to a number of different concepts.
Moderation in eating
Moderation in spending
Moderation in drinking
The definition of no extremes is applicable in all of those examples. How an individual moderates their eating, spending, and drinking may differ from person to person - but the overall concept is fairly clear, the avoidance of excess or extremes.
Conversely, the word "clean" is an adjective that has very different meanings depending on how it is used.
Clean house
Clean eating
Clean bill of health
I don't believe it is possible to come up with a singular definition for the word "clean" which is applicable to all of those concepts.
One person could say they spend in moderation, but they define it as having three homes, one yacht and one airplane. Another person might feel that spending in moderation is buying their clothes at Wal-Mart instead of Goodwill. Both can say they're spending in moderation, but you don't know what they mean until you ask.
One person's clean house may mean doing spring cleaning on a weekly basis while another has it meaning they moved junk from the floor to the counter.
You just don't know the specifics until you ask.
But we're talking about food. We all have a set limit of calories to maintain a healthy weight. Sure, yours might be lower than mine so we might not have the same definition of what 'moderation' is, but there's still a limit above which it won't be moderation for you anymore - if you're starving all day because you ate 5 cookies, you know that it's not moderation for you, for example. But someone who exercises a lot could easily fit that in their day, for example... that would be moderation for him/her.
So I would say that in a way, when it comes to food, 'moderation is pretty self explanatory'.
Again, I have no problem at all with people saying "clean" and "in moderation." I get the gist. But sometimes, it gets confusing and you don't know exactly what they mean, as in "Eat treats in moderation."
I'm not on a campaign to try to get people to stop using the words, but thought I'd clarify why the confusion exists, which I believe I have.
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If I say, "I eat treats in moderation," what does that mean?lemurcat12 wrote: »"I've been eating clean and I'm gaining weight!"
"I've been eating in moderation and I'm gaining weight!"
I'm going to need more. It doesn't really explain how they're actually eating.
True, but the difference is that I've never seen the former.If someone asks about how to eat treats "in moderation", there will be 20 different ways to do it.
Because people are different, and "in moderation" really just means "not to excess" in this context.
And IMO, moderation does not describe a way of eating. It describes an approach.
You haven't cut them out but you watch how many you eat and try to make it the amount you think is consistent with an overall healthy diet and other factors, like personal pleasure. I eat in moderation but never eat cold cereal, because I don't like it, yuck.So we know if that means once or twice a year? Every day? With every meal? Do we know if it's a time thing or an amount one? Doe we know if it's always the same thing or various things?
No, of course not. Because, again, it's not a way of eating, it's an approach. No one would say you know anything about precisely how someone is eating, because they say "I eat in moderation." And that's why no one ever says "but I'm eating in moderation and not losing." They'd say "I'm eating less and working out more and still not losing" or (better) "I'm eating only 1400 and not losing."0 -
So is this a thread of people taking an absolutist stance about what moderation is?
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MondayJune22nd2015 wrote: »The definitions don't define levels of what moderation and/or clean are, so those levels; will always be opinions.
I actually can't begin to comprehend how you're not getting the difference
Or are you being purposefully obtuse for the sake of discussion?
It's actually weird
I am just implying that there's no definitive rules, concerning the levels/percentage of application and/or even the method of application itself of these specific definitions; I don't understand how that's incomprehensible.0 -
That's why it's confusing.lemurcat12 wrote: »
If I say, "I eat treats in moderation," what does that mean?lemurcat12 wrote: »"I've been eating clean and I'm gaining weight!"
"I've been eating in moderation and I'm gaining weight!"
I'm going to need more. It doesn't really explain how they're actually eating.
True, but the difference is that I've never seen the former.If someone asks about how to eat treats "in moderation", there will be 20 different ways to do it.
Because people are different, and "in moderation" really just means "not to excess" in this context.
And IMO, moderation does not describe a way of eating. It describes an approach.
You haven't cut them out but you watch how many you eat and try to make it the amount you think is consistent with an overall healthy diet and other factors, like personal pleasure. I eat in moderation but never eat cold cereal, because I don't like it, yuck.So we know if that means once or twice a year? Every day? With every meal? Do we know if it's a time thing or an amount one? Doe we know if it's always the same thing or various things?
No, of course not. Because, again, it's not a way of eating, it's an approach. No one would say you know anything about precisely how someone is eating, because they say "I eat in moderation." And that's why no one ever says "but I'm eating in moderation and not losing." They'd say "I'm eating less and working out more and still not losing" or (better) "I'm eating only 1400 and not losing."
A term that can be applied or carried differently by different people isn't really specific. You can't know what they mean when they use it.
Start with the fact that many people have different ways of carrying out the "in moderation" term. Then throw in the fact that many people have defined it, but defined it differently (maybe because they're using it wrong, though they'd suggest they weren't, but even if they are, they're still doing it) and it's even more confusing.
At this point I'll just be repeating and repeating, so I'll quit. But I hope that you have some understanding of why people might hear the term "in moderation" and have absolutely no idea what it means, exactly.0 -
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If I say, "I eat treats in moderation," what does that mean? So we know if that means once or twice a year? Every day? With every meal? Do we know if it's a time thing or an amount one? Doe we know if it's always the same thing or various things?lemurcat12 wrote: »"I've been eating clean and I'm gaining weight!"
"I've been eating in moderation and I'm gaining weight!"
I'm going to need more. It doesn't really explain how they're actually eating.
True, but the difference is that I've never seen the former.If someone asks about how to eat treats "in moderation", there will be 20 different ways to do it.
Because people are different, and "in moderation" really just means "not to excess" in this context.
And IMO, moderation does not describe a way of eating. It describes an approach.
We don't. We don't know what it means except that the person who said it believes they're eating "in moderation."
Yes, exactly. Similarly, my definition of "junk food" will likely be very different from other's.0 -
I shouldn't...
but it always seems to amaze me that some people can make life so difficult...for them self.
It is so simple..open a dictionary or wiki and look up "moderation"
Derailing a whole thread that had really a good article posted is so......90's,
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Newbie: Puuleeze just tell me what to eat. I'm desperate to lose weight.
Moderate: All food is on the table, it's just how much.
Newbie: But what I am I supposed to eat?
Moderate: Eat the way you are now, only less. Let's start weighing and logging, shall we, just to see where you are?
Newbie: But what about the South Beach Diet? A co-worker of my girlfriend's said she had great results.
Moderate: K, come back when you are ready. I hear the scales at Wal-Mart are half-price.
Not so Newbie: Haalp! I am four weeks away from my wedding date, lost a bunch on the South Beach diet, but put it all back! Puuleeze just give me a quickie twenty pound plan.
Moderate: Sorry, too late for that. Here's what you realistically can lose in the next two weeks. In the meantime, get the dress altered.
Not so Newbie: So can I sweat it off? Is there an off-market pill I can take? Puuleeze just tell me what to eat.
Moderate: All food is on the table, it's just how much.
Not so Newbie: Are you serious? I heard carbs are toxic. I want a cleanse.
Desperation, quickies, fad diets of all descriptions, cleanses, pills, sweats, fears of toxinnnns, elimination of entire macros, are all extreme, so fall out of the moderate's realm.
Simplicity sometimes just cannot be heard.
Can moderation be overdone? Sure. Like weighing water, or trying to stick to the plan 100% of the time. Moderation even in moderation. That's even a thing. 80/20.0
This discussion has been closed.
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