Isagenix, Science or Woo?
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stevencloser wrote: »robertw486 wrote: »@Destiny4_four
I think you'll find that regardless of your approach, some will continue to follow you to prove that the method used that you promote can't possibly be legit, isn't needed, and is full of woo. But from what I've seen, you either have differences in some of the woo claims (which are subjective most of the time) or believe in the product to help those that just can't eat a healthier way and need a system or program to control weight.
And I actually agree with you. I don't need to log or weigh my food to lose weight myself, but I'm sure glad I'm not a scale salesman that comes to MFP. Though I do use some protein bars here and there, I don't need big containers of whey or any other protein, I don't need or use pre workout stuff, and I don't need a wifi connected scale. But those are all tools that many MFP users buy and use daily. Because it's a tool that works for them.
And though I do agree that pricing on some programs is out of line, well pricing on paying for anything you don't do yourself is out of line. I have a fried who IMO paid way too much to a local gym for what I thought was very poor diet advice and a restrictive diet to the 10th degree. They are setting him up to return IMO. And I've seen what some of the local whack trainers charge too. There was a tread in the last couple of days from a local gym that overcharges and promotes gross woo when it comes to weight loss.
So in the context that you are stating, I fully agree that what "tools" motivate people to lose weight vary a lot from person to person. And if they feel that paying into a structured eating program is right for them, it's their money. Considering that you are promoting that they learn to eat better on their own and only use the system if desired and hopefully short term, it actually seems like you aren't trying to convince anyone that they need it to succeed long term. And having been in several sales related fields, I can appreciate the truth included, as some haven't the moral fiber to mention the truth and revert to sales pitch mode.
I'm glad my friend overpaid the local gym, and would have been just as glad if he had paid for a food or supplement program that helped him lose weight. Because it's still a better health choice than not caring and being obese. But the trend I see here on the forums is often one of it not being important at all... unless it's important to that person. Then it's repeated, promoted, and often even attached as needed for success. I think it's up to the individual to decide that. And in my case, for me I'm 100% certain of it. But I don't need a food scale, so people will tell me I'm wrong.
And seriously? "those that just can't eat a healthier way"? What, are they allergic to all healthy foods? Can't be the money since they can throw that to isagenix.
And instead of being glad your friend overpaid (what even), you should have sat him down and told him hey dude don't be an idiot. That's what friends are for, not blind support for every stupid thing they do.
People throw money at car repairs, home repairs, and quick fixes for all kinds of problems because they can't or won't make their own efforts. That doesn't make them any less capable of changing it later, and if their home or car is fixed by someone else, they have simply made a choice.
As for my friend, he made his choice based on the time and effort he was willing to apply. It's not my job to change his priorities, or decide how he should spend his money. If I look at supplements, protein powders, fitness equipment, really just about any aspect of diet/fitness/nutrition often interjects some "woo" factor at some point. It just doesn't get noticed as much because it's through advertisements, store displays, labeling on the package, etc.
Is the protein powder on the store shelf a scam because on the next aisle you can buy chicken breasts? No, it's an alternative, one that many people choose.0 -
It comes down to buyer beware, no matter what you are throwing your money at. Isagenix is a lot of false claims wrapped in overpriced packaging when it's nothing more than a supplement, at best.
Be an informed consumer and do your research before blindly buying anything, whether it's car repair or a protein powder. Isagenix makes a LOT of claims backed up by nothing. If I had a friend wanting to buy into it, I would do my best to try and steer them towards better, cheaper alternatives, like a protein powder from a store or a multivitamin. If they choose not to take my advice, so be it. But at least I didn't sit back and watch.
I had a friend on my list here taking "skinny fiber." Well, Skinny Fiber is nothing more than glucomannan (konjac root powder) wrapped in overpriced packaging and marketing, making lots of claims that it's some magic pill that will cause weight loss. (See also Lipozene. Same stuff, different scam) I tried to let her know this information so she can save money and she chose to ignore me, spending $30+ a month rather than buying the really cheap plain powder. Her money, not mine. But at least I tried. She fell off of my friend's list after she started promoting the stuff to her feed, and how she can hook us up with her sales person if anyone was interested in trying the program.
What is in Isagenix that makes it so much better than eating healthy? Or buying your own protein powder and vitamin supplements? What actually justifies the price for the program? Nothing it claims is backed up with actual, real scientific truth, so what else is there besides hype?0 -
robertw486 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »robertw486 wrote: »@Destiny4_four
I think you'll find that regardless of your approach, some will continue to follow you to prove that the method used that you promote can't possibly be legit, isn't needed, and is full of woo. But from what I've seen, you either have differences in some of the woo claims (which are subjective most of the time) or believe in the product to help those that just can't eat a healthier way and need a system or program to control weight.
And I actually agree with you. I don't need to log or weigh my food to lose weight myself, but I'm sure glad I'm not a scale salesman that comes to MFP. Though I do use some protein bars here and there, I don't need big containers of whey or any other protein, I don't need or use pre workout stuff, and I don't need a wifi connected scale. But those are all tools that many MFP users buy and use daily. Because it's a tool that works for them.
And though I do agree that pricing on some programs is out of line, well pricing on paying for anything you don't do yourself is out of line. I have a fried who IMO paid way too much to a local gym for what I thought was very poor diet advice and a restrictive diet to the 10th degree. They are setting him up to return IMO. And I've seen what some of the local whack trainers charge too. There was a tread in the last couple of days from a local gym that overcharges and promotes gross woo when it comes to weight loss.
So in the context that you are stating, I fully agree that what "tools" motivate people to lose weight vary a lot from person to person. And if they feel that paying into a structured eating program is right for them, it's their money. Considering that you are promoting that they learn to eat better on their own and only use the system if desired and hopefully short term, it actually seems like you aren't trying to convince anyone that they need it to succeed long term. And having been in several sales related fields, I can appreciate the truth included, as some haven't the moral fiber to mention the truth and revert to sales pitch mode.
I'm glad my friend overpaid the local gym, and would have been just as glad if he had paid for a food or supplement program that helped him lose weight. Because it's still a better health choice than not caring and being obese. But the trend I see here on the forums is often one of it not being important at all... unless it's important to that person. Then it's repeated, promoted, and often even attached as needed for success. I think it's up to the individual to decide that. And in my case, for me I'm 100% certain of it. But I don't need a food scale, so people will tell me I'm wrong.
And seriously? "those that just can't eat a healthier way"? What, are they allergic to all healthy foods? Can't be the money since they can throw that to isagenix.
And instead of being glad your friend overpaid (what even), you should have sat him down and told him hey dude don't be an idiot. That's what friends are for, not blind support for every stupid thing they do.
People throw money at car repairs, home repairs, and quick fixes for all kinds of problems because they can't or won't make their own efforts. That doesn't make them any less capable of changing it later, and if their home or car is fixed by someone else, they have simply made a choice.
As for my friend, he made his choice based on the time and effort he was willing to apply. It's not my job to change his priorities, or decide how he should spend his money. If I look at supplements, protein powders, fitness equipment, really just about any aspect of diet/fitness/nutrition often interjects some "woo" factor at some point. It just doesn't get noticed as much because it's through advertisements, store displays, labeling on the package, etc.
Is the protein powder on the store shelf a scam because on the next aisle you can buy chicken breasts? No, it's an alternative, one that many people choose.
The question needs a qualifier.
Does the protein advertise any magic powers or that it's just a quality protein?0 -
robertw486 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »robertw486 wrote: »@Destiny4_four
I think you'll find that regardless of your approach, some will continue to follow you to prove that the method used that you promote can't possibly be legit, isn't needed, and is full of woo. But from what I've seen, you either have differences in some of the woo claims (which are subjective most of the time) or believe in the product to help those that just can't eat a healthier way and need a system or program to control weight.
And I actually agree with you. I don't need to log or weigh my food to lose weight myself, but I'm sure glad I'm not a scale salesman that comes to MFP. Though I do use some protein bars here and there, I don't need big containers of whey or any other protein, I don't need or use pre workout stuff, and I don't need a wifi connected scale. But those are all tools that many MFP users buy and use daily. Because it's a tool that works for them.
And though I do agree that pricing on some programs is out of line, well pricing on paying for anything you don't do yourself is out of line. I have a fried who IMO paid way too much to a local gym for what I thought was very poor diet advice and a restrictive diet to the 10th degree. They are setting him up to return IMO. And I've seen what some of the local whack trainers charge too. There was a tread in the last couple of days from a local gym that overcharges and promotes gross woo when it comes to weight loss.
So in the context that you are stating, I fully agree that what "tools" motivate people to lose weight vary a lot from person to person. And if they feel that paying into a structured eating program is right for them, it's their money. Considering that you are promoting that they learn to eat better on their own and only use the system if desired and hopefully short term, it actually seems like you aren't trying to convince anyone that they need it to succeed long term. And having been in several sales related fields, I can appreciate the truth included, as some haven't the moral fiber to mention the truth and revert to sales pitch mode.
I'm glad my friend overpaid the local gym, and would have been just as glad if he had paid for a food or supplement program that helped him lose weight. Because it's still a better health choice than not caring and being obese. But the trend I see here on the forums is often one of it not being important at all... unless it's important to that person. Then it's repeated, promoted, and often even attached as needed for success. I think it's up to the individual to decide that. And in my case, for me I'm 100% certain of it. But I don't need a food scale, so people will tell me I'm wrong.
And seriously? "those that just can't eat a healthier way"? What, are they allergic to all healthy foods? Can't be the money since they can throw that to isagenix.
And instead of being glad your friend overpaid (what even), you should have sat him down and told him hey dude don't be an idiot. That's what friends are for, not blind support for every stupid thing they do.
People throw money at car repairs, home repairs, and quick fixes for all kinds of problems because they can't or won't make their own efforts. That doesn't make them any less capable of changing it later, and if their home or car is fixed by someone else, they have simply made a choice.
As for my friend, he made his choice based on the time and effort he was willing to apply. It's not my job to change his priorities, or decide how he should spend his money. If I look at supplements, protein powders, fitness equipment, really just about any aspect of diet/fitness/nutrition often interjects some "woo" factor at some point. It just doesn't get noticed as much because it's through advertisements, store displays, labeling on the package, etc.
Is the protein powder on the store shelf a scam because on the next aisle you can buy chicken breasts? No, it's an alternative, one that many people choose.
The question needs a qualifier.
Does the protein advertise any magic powers or that it's just a quality protein?
I've seen some fairly whacked claims on store shelf items. Granted not all of them do that, but even the ones that don't aim to deceive.... protein powder alone is a supplement not needed for those that eat regular foods in the right form and amounts. It's often the similar type of deception that regardless of your programs, regular food choices, etc that using more protein through powders and such will make it even better.0 -
Maybe a more credible source for the role of antioxidants and their relationship to free radicals.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3249911/
0 -
Destiny4_four wrote: »Maybe a more credible source for the role of antioxidants and their relationship to free radicals.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3249911/
I'm not sure what indian food has to do with isagenix, but I'll take adding cardamom and cloves to my coffee over buying over priced protein powder with vitamins any day.0 -
robertw486 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »robertw486 wrote: »@Destiny4_four
I think you'll find that regardless of your approach, some will continue to follow you to prove that the method used that you promote can't possibly be legit, isn't needed, and is full of woo. But from what I've seen, you either have differences in some of the woo claims (which are subjective most of the time) or believe in the product to help those that just can't eat a healthier way and need a system or program to control weight.
And I actually agree with you. I don't need to log or weigh my food to lose weight myself, but I'm sure glad I'm not a scale salesman that comes to MFP. Though I do use some protein bars here and there, I don't need big containers of whey or any other protein, I don't need or use pre workout stuff, and I don't need a wifi connected scale. But those are all tools that many MFP users buy and use daily. Because it's a tool that works for them.
And though I do agree that pricing on some programs is out of line, well pricing on paying for anything you don't do yourself is out of line. I have a fried who IMO paid way too much to a local gym for what I thought was very poor diet advice and a restrictive diet to the 10th degree. They are setting him up to return IMO. And I've seen what some of the local whack trainers charge too. There was a tread in the last couple of days from a local gym that overcharges and promotes gross woo when it comes to weight loss.
So in the context that you are stating, I fully agree that what "tools" motivate people to lose weight vary a lot from person to person. And if they feel that paying into a structured eating program is right for them, it's their money. Considering that you are promoting that they learn to eat better on their own and only use the system if desired and hopefully short term, it actually seems like you aren't trying to convince anyone that they need it to succeed long term. And having been in several sales related fields, I can appreciate the truth included, as some haven't the moral fiber to mention the truth and revert to sales pitch mode.
I'm glad my friend overpaid the local gym, and would have been just as glad if he had paid for a food or supplement program that helped him lose weight. Because it's still a better health choice than not caring and being obese. But the trend I see here on the forums is often one of it not being important at all... unless it's important to that person. Then it's repeated, promoted, and often even attached as needed for success. I think it's up to the individual to decide that. And in my case, for me I'm 100% certain of it. But I don't need a food scale, so people will tell me I'm wrong.
And seriously? "those that just can't eat a healthier way"? What, are they allergic to all healthy foods? Can't be the money since they can throw that to isagenix.
And instead of being glad your friend overpaid (what even), you should have sat him down and told him hey dude don't be an idiot. That's what friends are for, not blind support for every stupid thing they do.
People throw money at car repairs, home repairs, and quick fixes for all kinds of problems because they can't or won't make their own efforts. That doesn't make them any less capable of changing it later, and if their home or car is fixed by someone else, they have simply made a choice.
As for my friend, he made his choice based on the time and effort he was willing to apply. It's not my job to change his priorities, or decide how he should spend his money. If I look at supplements, protein powders, fitness equipment, really just about any aspect of diet/fitness/nutrition often interjects some "woo" factor at some point. It just doesn't get noticed as much because it's through advertisements, store displays, labeling on the package, etc.
Is the protein powder on the store shelf a scam because on the next aisle you can buy chicken breasts? No, it's an alternative, one that many people choose.
False analogy is false. I can get someone to repair my car or my house, and it will be repaired - it is a thing. I can't get someone to actually repair my poor nutrition or bad eating habits, or lack of exercise. Indeed, there is even a phrase: "you can't have someone else do your push ups for you."
As a time save, you could try to outsource nutritional knowledge and have someone generate a diet for you. Personally, I'd see a dietitian that knows actual nutritional science, that gives recommendations based on the body of knowledge in the field, and that has a fair chance of being motivated by a genuine desire to improve human lives as evidenced in part by them making recommendations that have nothing to do with how they'll be paid for their services rendered. Compare that with the unproven of Isagenix, its scant agreement with actual biological and nutritional theory, and the fact that the people selling it have a vested financial interest in making others become repeat users.
If we were to extend your analogy to Isagenix, using Isagenix would be akin to trusting the mechanic to take care of your car so long as you buy their special brand of oil for oil changes that is solid at a vast mark up. It also would be like the mechanic insisting that using that special oil will somehow remove impurities in your coolant system even though your oil and coolant system don't interact that way as most proper mechanics would tell you.0 -
robertw486 wrote: »robertw486 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »robertw486 wrote: »@Destiny4_four
I think you'll find that regardless of your approach, some will continue to follow you to prove that the method used that you promote can't possibly be legit, isn't needed, and is full of woo. But from what I've seen, you either have differences in some of the woo claims (which are subjective most of the time) or believe in the product to help those that just can't eat a healthier way and need a system or program to control weight.
And I actually agree with you. I don't need to log or weigh my food to lose weight myself, but I'm sure glad I'm not a scale salesman that comes to MFP. Though I do use some protein bars here and there, I don't need big containers of whey or any other protein, I don't need or use pre workout stuff, and I don't need a wifi connected scale. But those are all tools that many MFP users buy and use daily. Because it's a tool that works for them.
And though I do agree that pricing on some programs is out of line, well pricing on paying for anything you don't do yourself is out of line. I have a fried who IMO paid way too much to a local gym for what I thought was very poor diet advice and a restrictive diet to the 10th degree. They are setting him up to return IMO. And I've seen what some of the local whack trainers charge too. There was a tread in the last couple of days from a local gym that overcharges and promotes gross woo when it comes to weight loss.
So in the context that you are stating, I fully agree that what "tools" motivate people to lose weight vary a lot from person to person. And if they feel that paying into a structured eating program is right for them, it's their money. Considering that you are promoting that they learn to eat better on their own and only use the system if desired and hopefully short term, it actually seems like you aren't trying to convince anyone that they need it to succeed long term. And having been in several sales related fields, I can appreciate the truth included, as some haven't the moral fiber to mention the truth and revert to sales pitch mode.
I'm glad my friend overpaid the local gym, and would have been just as glad if he had paid for a food or supplement program that helped him lose weight. Because it's still a better health choice than not caring and being obese. But the trend I see here on the forums is often one of it not being important at all... unless it's important to that person. Then it's repeated, promoted, and often even attached as needed for success. I think it's up to the individual to decide that. And in my case, for me I'm 100% certain of it. But I don't need a food scale, so people will tell me I'm wrong.
And seriously? "those that just can't eat a healthier way"? What, are they allergic to all healthy foods? Can't be the money since they can throw that to isagenix.
And instead of being glad your friend overpaid (what even), you should have sat him down and told him hey dude don't be an idiot. That's what friends are for, not blind support for every stupid thing they do.
People throw money at car repairs, home repairs, and quick fixes for all kinds of problems because they can't or won't make their own efforts. That doesn't make them any less capable of changing it later, and if their home or car is fixed by someone else, they have simply made a choice.
As for my friend, he made his choice based on the time and effort he was willing to apply. It's not my job to change his priorities, or decide how he should spend his money. If I look at supplements, protein powders, fitness equipment, really just about any aspect of diet/fitness/nutrition often interjects some "woo" factor at some point. It just doesn't get noticed as much because it's through advertisements, store displays, labeling on the package, etc.
Is the protein powder on the store shelf a scam because on the next aisle you can buy chicken breasts? No, it's an alternative, one that many people choose.
The question needs a qualifier.
Does the protein advertise any magic powers or that it's just a quality protein?
I've seen some fairly whacked claims on store shelf items. Granted not all of them do that, but even the ones that don't aim to deceive.... protein powder alone is a supplement not needed for those that eat regular foods in the right form and amounts. It's often the similar type of deception that regardless of your programs, regular food choices, etc that using more protein through powders and such will make it even better.
So then it would be a scam if it is making unsubstantiated claims (which is what would be equivalent with what we are talking about here), and not just a protein alternative.
We're not talking about what is an alternative to a certain macro/micro source, it's the magic claims.0 -
robertw486 wrote: »...Is the protein powder on the store shelf a scam because on the next aisle you can buy chicken breasts? No, it's an alternative, one that many people choose.
If you can't discern the difference between protein powder and MLM snake oil garbage which promises to "detox" you, cure diseases, reverse aging and all the other tripe they claim, there's no sense even discussing anything related to diet or nutrition with you.0 -
robertw486 wrote: »robertw486 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »robertw486 wrote: »@Destiny4_four
I think you'll find that regardless of your approach, some will continue to follow you to prove that the method used that you promote can't possibly be legit, isn't needed, and is full of woo. But from what I've seen, you either have differences in some of the woo claims (which are subjective most of the time) or believe in the product to help those that just can't eat a healthier way and need a system or program to control weight.
And I actually agree with you. I don't need to log or weigh my food to lose weight myself, but I'm sure glad I'm not a scale salesman that comes to MFP. Though I do use some protein bars here and there, I don't need big containers of whey or any other protein, I don't need or use pre workout stuff, and I don't need a wifi connected scale. But those are all tools that many MFP users buy and use daily. Because it's a tool that works for them.
And though I do agree that pricing on some programs is out of line, well pricing on paying for anything you don't do yourself is out of line. I have a fried who IMO paid way too much to a local gym for what I thought was very poor diet advice and a restrictive diet to the 10th degree. They are setting him up to return IMO. And I've seen what some of the local whack trainers charge too. There was a tread in the last couple of days from a local gym that overcharges and promotes gross woo when it comes to weight loss.
So in the context that you are stating, I fully agree that what "tools" motivate people to lose weight vary a lot from person to person. And if they feel that paying into a structured eating program is right for them, it's their money. Considering that you are promoting that they learn to eat better on their own and only use the system if desired and hopefully short term, it actually seems like you aren't trying to convince anyone that they need it to succeed long term. And having been in several sales related fields, I can appreciate the truth included, as some haven't the moral fiber to mention the truth and revert to sales pitch mode.
I'm glad my friend overpaid the local gym, and would have been just as glad if he had paid for a food or supplement program that helped him lose weight. Because it's still a better health choice than not caring and being obese. But the trend I see here on the forums is often one of it not being important at all... unless it's important to that person. Then it's repeated, promoted, and often even attached as needed for success. I think it's up to the individual to decide that. And in my case, for me I'm 100% certain of it. But I don't need a food scale, so people will tell me I'm wrong.
And seriously? "those that just can't eat a healthier way"? What, are they allergic to all healthy foods? Can't be the money since they can throw that to isagenix.
And instead of being glad your friend overpaid (what even), you should have sat him down and told him hey dude don't be an idiot. That's what friends are for, not blind support for every stupid thing they do.
People throw money at car repairs, home repairs, and quick fixes for all kinds of problems because they can't or won't make their own efforts. That doesn't make them any less capable of changing it later, and if their home or car is fixed by someone else, they have simply made a choice.
As for my friend, he made his choice based on the time and effort he was willing to apply. It's not my job to change his priorities, or decide how he should spend his money. If I look at supplements, protein powders, fitness equipment, really just about any aspect of diet/fitness/nutrition often interjects some "woo" factor at some point. It just doesn't get noticed as much because it's through advertisements, store displays, labeling on the package, etc.
Is the protein powder on the store shelf a scam because on the next aisle you can buy chicken breasts? No, it's an alternative, one that many people choose.
The question needs a qualifier.
Does the protein advertise any magic powers or that it's just a quality protein?
I've seen some fairly whacked claims on store shelf items. Granted not all of them do that, but even the ones that don't aim to deceive.... protein powder alone is a supplement not needed for those that eat regular foods in the right form and amounts. It's often the similar type of deception that regardless of your programs, regular food choices, etc that using more protein through powders and such will make it even better.
No one is saying it doesn't work, or that it isn't an easy alternative to counting calories in normal food. People are criticizing the idea that it is some special detox/metabolism boosting/anti-aging formula that has any added benefits aside from brainless calorie management.
If it marketed itself as brainless calorie cutting, like Slim Fast, I don't think people would have nearly the same objections. But then again they probably wouldn't be able to charge what they do for the shakes.0 -
Basically if this was being marketed, as what it truly is: a placebo effect, no one would complain; about it being a scam.0
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robertw486 wrote: »...Is the protein powder on the store shelf a scam because on the next aisle you can buy chicken breasts? No, it's an alternative, one that many people choose.
If you can't discern the difference between protein powder and MLM snake oil garbage which promises to "detox" you, cure diseases, reverse aging and all the other tripe they claim, there's no sense even discussing anything related to diet or nutrition with you.
Simple solution. Don't respond.
I worked in an advertising related field for years, and see deception in advertising constantly. The difference between active claims from a sales rep or passive claims on a container of supplement don't change the fact the deception is deception. Stated claims that could even be true if given in the proper context often are deceptive when the entire context is not stated.0
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