Could you spend a day without any sugar?
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Replies
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »
Looking at the wrong cheese.
American cheese has more. 296 mg/oz. for 1 g of carbs.
However, you couldn't get me to eat 4 oz of that a day.
But I thought he specified cheese, not "Pasteurized Prepared Cheese Product."
;-)0 -
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »
Looking at the wrong cheese.
American cheese has more. 296 mg/oz.
Swiss has 221 and mozzarella has 205. Brie has only 50 and Monterrey Jack has 196.
Besides, who eats American when you can have a better tasting cheese like cheddar?
my number was for cheddar.
Like earlnabby said, that's coming out at 80%, even ignoring those who need more. Also, 460 calories is a pretty big chunk to spend on cheese unless one has a huge calorie allowance. Not saying I've never, ever done it, but I didn't think it was for my health.0 -
I couldnt do it. I eat at least 5-6 servings of fruit a day. I am not giving that up for anything. Added sugars for sure.0
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And that amount is a whopping 456 calories. I've seen the diaries of the keto adherents eating at deficit. That's a huge chunk of their daily allowance, and they're not eating it.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
Ketogenic diets are quite extreme in macro and content when designed for drug resistant epileptics who may have multiple severe health issues and pharmaceutical interventions. I gave up reading the studies on epileptic ketogenic diets because it is a different animal than a diet filled with relatively normal proteins and fats and eaten by folks without multiple significant health issues.
Where do you get your calcium?
Cream, cheese, sour cream, nuts, veggies, eggs, seafood and hotdogs primarily.
You're getting the full 1,000 mg a day from that? Really?0 -
_Terrapin_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Maybe it makes them feel bad? Maybe they like to experiment? Sugar is fun to eat, but no one will suffer ill health without it.
Eating no veggies isn't good for you. Yeah, there are ways to make up the micronutrients (although I suspect they aren't as good), but the vast majority of people who mostly cut out veggies don't actually eat lots of organ meats and the like. (And the traditional Inuit diet, while not keto, doesn't compete with the blue zone diets anyway.)
So claiming eating no veggies is perfectly healthy seems inaccurate.
I think this is more of an opinion than a proven fact.
I do eat veggies. I like them and think they are good for me, but I'm not sure that eating no veggies has been proven harmful for people.
While I agree with this being an opinion, I'm also thinking that no veggies (or fruits) could be harmful in a small sense because....there wouldn't be much quality potty time going on without them! Tons of meat and cheese! Just thinking about the constipation makes me cringe.
Most keto'ers, including me, do not experience constipation. The fats, for me it is largely MCT's (coconut oil), keeps me moving very well. In fact it is almost too well.
Veggies and fibre supplements were a fail for me. I was much much slower before changing to a ketogenic diet.
I'm also of the opinion that fibre is mainly important for helping to move carbohydrates on through. If carbs are lower, then the need for fibre just isn't there.
Granted, too much cheese will slow thngs for many people, but that's not specific to a low carb diet.
As for nutrition, I've only been in ketosis for 5 months, but no problems so far. I am not carb free though. I eat a few veggies every day - more that my "normal" eating husband and two of my kids eat. I do take a multivitamin, but I have for years. No change there.
I would like to suggest that people who are googling keto look at a nutritional ketogenic diet rather than the medically ordered, strict ketogenic diet of those with epilepsy. They really are quite different.
The 2 IRL k-e-t-o friends who I discuss this with both have constipation. Both have been doing this diet for over a year and the one even longer. The individual who has been doing it longer also has epilepsy. He follows a modified Atkins method which provides less restriction then the traditional k-e-t-o diet. It provides for up to 35% protein and can be found on the epilepsy site up thread that I linked.
As far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
*edit spell check made k-e-t-o the word kept
Constipation really isn't the norm. I would hazard a guess that your friends are not getting enough sodium or magnesium; if they increased those they might improve. It could be from certain foods that their bodies have issue with such as cheese. If they were able to expriment a bit (difficult on a medical diet) they may be able to resolve it.
I don't think I'm a special snowflake and one of the rare keto'er who does not have constipation. My conversations with other low carbers would negate that too.
...and most keto'ers get more than a cup of veggies per week! Do you really think that is typical? This is why people need to NOT look at epileptic diets. They are not nutritional ketogenic diets.
Yesterday, not an unusual carb day for me even though I "fat fasted" (only coconut oil) until 4:00pm, I had about1/2 cup macadamia nuts, about 1/3 cup green beans, and later on some celery (with my pork rinds) dipped in an artichoke asiago dip. That was pretty much spot on my usual upper limit of carbs - 18g of carbs which worked out to 3 g of sugar.
And that is just me. Many keto'ers, especially those more active than me, eat many more carbs than I do. A few eat less. The few I know who have been eating very few carbs, and basically no sugar, have fine health.rockstarjosh wrote: »This is good entertainment! Hardly a scientific debate, since there is so much mudslinging (or, "facepalming"), but here is a scientific idea: How about you each experiment with your opponent's hypothesis, see what becomes of it, and come back to the table and discuss your results? The main limitation in every human study about nutrition is that no two humans are alike. Some bodies process certain things better, while others do so worse. For instance, my body loves dairy, but give me bread and you better head for the hills to escape my draft.
Just try stuff out, make it work for you, and you will have a pretty good hypothesis about you! :-)
Good day! #NoPityForTheKitty!
why would I run an experiment on myself and torture myself by eating little or no carbs when I already eat carbs and have lost weight, and kept it off?????
Wow. I agree.
I ate that way (basically SAD with a goal towards moderating my intake) for decades. I'm not going back to that. It was a fail for me.PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
To address the two articles with deficiencies found, the first article where the two patients were diagnosed with optic neuropathy, both sets of parents in both case studies admitted that they were not giving the children the prescribed vitamin and mineral supplements. While this does support the claim that the ketogenic diet is lacking in some nutrients, it doesn't provide evidence that people who do keto diets and are obtaining the proper nutrients are at risk.
In the second article, the patient was found to be deficient in selenium, which led to a dilated cardiomyopathy. But later in the article, it states that "Dietary selenium is found in the highest concentrations in meat and seafood," which would be staples of the keto diet. It also states that "Assessment of selenium status is difficult because no optimal method is known. Dietary assessment is inaccurate, and selenium content depends on where the food was grown (soil content), which is usually unknown," which indicates that selenium deficiency is not unique to a keto diet and could occur even in people who eat a diet rich in grains and veggies simply based on location.
It is disappointing that most of the research around keto diets seems to relate to epilepsy as that makes the results difficult to translate to the larger population. Some of the treatments seem to impact nutrient absorption and issues around oral ingestion of foods make it difficult for researchers to get accurate data. That's not to say that a keto diet is not going to have deficiencies, it would just be helpful if the research were more applicable to genpop.
Yeah, another drawback is that most of the research is on children, and most of them are prescribed supplements from the get-go because the diet itself is recognized as being nutrient deficient.
You sort of have to add 2 and 2 here.
Why is the diet inherently nutrient deficient?
Do we have a source anywhere stating which nutrients are deficient on a keto diet following the tenets of the diet? I'm not sure nutrient deficiencies in epileptic kids is the best baseline given the illness and the fact they are still growing, and all I've found from google is concerns about magnesium and recommendations to eat nuts. But that also goes with keto diets which include vegetables, because keto includes vegetables to a degree. I also haven't seen anything on how deficient - are we talking a multivitamin that many people take no matter how they eat, or are we headed into heavy duty supplementation of certain nutrients?
I don't think no carb diet even exists, perhaps @umayster can shed some light on diet planning and supplements for no veggie diets and how that would work.
Every source I posted said the diet itself wasn't providing enough nutrition.
It certainly is lacking in calcium... this is just off the top of my head without coffee and in a rush. Keto proponents don't eat dairy except for small amounts of cream. Calcium supplementation was needed, and I suspect that children wouldn't be the only followers of the diet (women come to mind here) needing calcium.
I doubt the average keto'er in nutritional ketosis (not treating epilepsy) is low in calcium. Green leafy veggies are a favourite among many because of flavor, bulk and low carb content. I would guess we eat cheese pretty regularly, and indulge in many high fat dairy products like whipping cream, cheese, sour cream and plain yogurt. Plus fat is needed for calcium absorption so a LCHF diet could be a benefit.
If a keto'er (or anyone for that matter) does not like foods rich in calcium, take a calcium supplement.0 -
No I couldn't do it.0
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I've done 2 days in a row of no added sugar a couple of times (don't ask why
)
It was very hard. I acknowledge that I eat a lot of carb-y foods. But 100% whole wheat bread was out (even though it only had 1g and the sugar is basically to feed the yeast). So were bread products. I could eat Triscuits, though. Cheerios were out, again 1g of sugar; fortunately I like creamy wheat and oatmeal for breakfast. I had a lot of nuts, fruits, and eggs on those days. Ironically, Kraft Mac N Cheese was okay.
I also noticed that my carb level overall was much lower when I did it; I guess most carb foods have some sugar (added). And also that I didn't feel loads better. Low carb and keto works great for some people, not so great for others.0 -
I am sure I have many days where I have no added sugar. I've been reading labels like, forever. Yes, the carb numbers are a little more in control that way. And I wonder why in the heck sugar has to be added to so many foods (like peanut butter! Whyyyyyyy.)
But to cut out all sugars, including the naturally occurring ones? Nearly impossible. That takes out the dairy, all fruits, and most vegetables. I just learned something new today about onions and Jerusalem artichokes. Fructans.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
To address the two articles with deficiencies found, the first article where the two patients were diagnosed with optic neuropathy, both sets of parents in both case studies admitted that they were not giving the children the prescribed vitamin and mineral supplements. While this does support the claim that the ketogenic diet is lacking in some nutrients, it doesn't provide evidence that people who do keto diets and are obtaining the proper nutrients are at risk.
In the second article, the patient was found to be deficient in selenium, which led to a dilated cardiomyopathy. But later in the article, it states that "Dietary selenium is found in the highest concentrations in meat and seafood," which would be staples of the keto diet. It also states that "Assessment of selenium status is difficult because no optimal method is known. Dietary assessment is inaccurate, and selenium content depends on where the food was grown (soil content), which is usually unknown," which indicates that selenium deficiency is not unique to a keto diet and could occur even in people who eat a diet rich in grains and veggies simply based on location.
It is disappointing that most of the research around keto diets seems to relate to epilepsy as that makes the results difficult to translate to the larger population. Some of the treatments seem to impact nutrient absorption and issues around oral ingestion of foods make it difficult for researchers to get accurate data. That's not to say that a keto diet is not going to have deficiencies, it would just be helpful if the research were more applicable to genpop.
Yeah, another drawback is that most of the research is on children, and most of them are prescribed supplements from the get-go because the diet itself is recognized as being nutrient deficient.
You sort of have to add 2 and 2 here.
Why is the diet inherently nutrient deficient?
It isn't.
That runs contrary to every source I posted. The doctors medically prescribing it for epilepsy who added supplements to it because it wasn't providing enough nutrition by itself disagree with you.
Cool, those of us on a ketogenic diet designed for epileptics are under care of a doc and you needn't worry.
Those of us on a non-epilepsy diet are able to fulfill our nutrients with food. It really isn't any more difficult than a 'moderation' diet.
Did you have nutrient problems when you were doing ketogenic diet?
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PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
To address the two articles with deficiencies found, the first article where the two patients were diagnosed with optic neuropathy, both sets of parents in both case studies admitted that they were not giving the children the prescribed vitamin and mineral supplements. While this does support the claim that the ketogenic diet is lacking in some nutrients, it doesn't provide evidence that people who do keto diets and are obtaining the proper nutrients are at risk.
In the second article, the patient was found to be deficient in selenium, which led to a dilated cardiomyopathy. But later in the article, it states that "Dietary selenium is found in the highest concentrations in meat and seafood," which would be staples of the keto diet. It also states that "Assessment of selenium status is difficult because no optimal method is known. Dietary assessment is inaccurate, and selenium content depends on where the food was grown (soil content), which is usually unknown," which indicates that selenium deficiency is not unique to a keto diet and could occur even in people who eat a diet rich in grains and veggies simply based on location.
It is disappointing that most of the research around keto diets seems to relate to epilepsy as that makes the results difficult to translate to the larger population. Some of the treatments seem to impact nutrient absorption and issues around oral ingestion of foods make it difficult for researchers to get accurate data. That's not to say that a keto diet is not going to have deficiencies, it would just be helpful if the research were more applicable to genpop.
Yeah, another drawback is that most of the research is on children, and most of them are prescribed supplements from the get-go because the diet itself is recognized as being nutrient deficient.
You sort of have to add 2 and 2 here.
Why is the diet inherently nutrient deficient?
It isn't.
That runs contrary to every source I posted. The doctors medically prescribing it for epilepsy who added supplements to it because it wasn't providing enough nutrition by itself disagree with you.
Cool, those of us on a ketogenic diet designed for epileptics are under care of a doc and you needn't worry.
Those of us on a non-epilepsy diet are able to fulfill our nutrients with food. It really isn't any more difficult than a 'moderation' diet.
Did you have nutrient problems when you were doing ketogenic diet?
Cool, then we won't be needing to proclaim the ketogenic diet superior to other diets for all parties anymore.
Agreed everyone? Break!0 -
This is the thing I wonder about. Do people who swear off of fruits and such think about things like scurvy? Do they know how quickly it shows up?PeachyCarol wrote: »I want to know where the people not eating fruits, veggies, or grains are getting their nutrition from if they're not eating organ meats?
Here's one guy's view http://www.ruled.me/introduction-micronutrients/ which shows only Vit C as a challenge without organ meats I think.
I've seen people say things like, "Vitamin deficiencies take years to develop." I never say, "Not always!" but I think it. Without vitamin C, you can get scurvy in a couple months.
I'm sure the members here are mostly paying attention to their nutrients, but there are so many goofballs out there going on wacky diets with absolutely no regard for their health.
I'm so on the fence with the whole keto thing, but do hope that those who suggest it remind people to get their nutrients.0 -
This is the thing I wonder about. Do people who swear off of fruits and such think about things like scurvy? Do they know how quickly it shows up?PeachyCarol wrote: »I want to know where the people not eating fruits, veggies, or grains are getting their nutrition from if they're not eating organ meats?
Here's one guy's view http://www.ruled.me/introduction-micronutrients/ which shows only Vit C as a challenge without organ meats I think.
I've seen people say things like, "Vitamin deficiencies take years to develop." I never say, "Not always!" but I think it. Without vitamin C, you can get scurvy in a couple months.
I'm sure the members here are mostly paying attention to their nutrients, but there are so many goofballs out there going on wacky diets with absolutely no regard for their health.
I'm so on the fence with the whole keto thing, but do hope that those who suggest it remind people to get their nutrients.
Scurvy is rather rare, it's pretty much a very advanced Vit C deficiency - the effect of a deficiency occur much before outright scurvy. I've read that the deficiency is estimated to be present in about 10% of the pop.0 -
I don't like how I feel when I eat foods with added sugar so I don't eat them. I also generally only eat fruits that have lower sugar carb (for example I eat berries instead of mangos and cantaloupe instead of watermelon). I don't think everybody is the same in this regard but this is how I feel best.0
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_Terrapin_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Maybe it makes them feel bad? Maybe they like to experiment? Sugar is fun to eat, but no one will suffer ill health without it.
Eating no veggies isn't good for you. Yeah, there are ways to make up the micronutrients (although I suspect they aren't as good), but the vast majority of people who mostly cut out veggies don't actually eat lots of organ meats and the like. (And the traditional Inuit diet, while not keto, doesn't compete with the blue zone diets anyway.)
So claiming eating no veggies is perfectly healthy seems inaccurate.
I think this is more of an opinion than a proven fact.
I do eat veggies. I like them and think they are good for me, but I'm not sure that eating no veggies has been proven harmful for people.
While I agree with this being an opinion, I'm also thinking that no veggies (or fruits) could be harmful in a small sense because....there wouldn't be much quality potty time going on without them! Tons of meat and cheese! Just thinking about the constipation makes me cringe.
Most keto'ers, including me, do not experience constipation. The fats, for me it is largely MCT's (coconut oil), keeps me moving very well. In fact it is almost too well.
Veggies and fibre supplements were a fail for me. I was much much slower before changing to a ketogenic diet.
I'm also of the opinion that fibre is mainly important for helping to move carbohydrates on through. If carbs are lower, then the need for fibre just isn't there.
Granted, too much cheese will slow thngs for many people, but that's not specific to a low carb diet.
As for nutrition, I've only been in ketosis for 5 months, but no problems so far. I am not carb free though. I eat a few veggies every day - more that my "normal" eating husband and two of my kids eat. I do take a multivitamin, but I have for years. No change there.
I would like to suggest that people who are googling keto look at a nutritional ketogenic diet rather than the medically ordered, strict ketogenic diet of those with epilepsy. They really are quite different.
The 2 IRL k-e-t-o friends who I discuss this with both have constipation. Both have been doing this diet for over a year and the one even longer. The individual who has been doing it longer also has epilepsy. He follows a modified Atkins method which provides less restriction then the traditional k-e-t-o diet. It provides for up to 35% protein and can be found on the epilepsy site up thread that I linked.
As far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
*edit spell check made k-e-t-o the word kept
Constipation really isn't the norm. I would hazard a guess that your friends are not getting enough sodium or magnesium; if they increased those they might improve. It could be from certain foods that their bodies have issue with such as cheese. If they were able to expriment a bit (difficult on a medical diet) they may be able to resolve it.
I don't think I'm a special snowflake and one of the rare keto'er who does not have constipation. My conversations with other low carbers would negate that too.
...and most keto'ers get more than a cup of veggies per week! Do you really think that is typical? This is why people need to NOT look at epileptic diets. They are not nutritional ketogenic diets.
Yesterday, not an unusual carb day for me even though I "fat fasted" (only coconut oil) until 4:00pm, I had about1/2 cup macadamia nuts, about 1/3 cup green beans, and later on some celery (with my pork rinds) dipped in an artichoke asiago dip. That was pretty much spot on my usual upper limit of carbs - 18g of carbs which worked out to 3 g of sugar.
And that is just me. Many keto'ers, especially those more active than me, eat many more carbs than I do. A few eat less. The few I know who have been eating very few carbs, and basically no sugar, have fine health.rockstarjosh wrote: »This is good entertainment! Hardly a scientific debate, since there is so much mudslinging (or, "facepalming"), but here is a scientific idea: How about you each experiment with your opponent's hypothesis, see what becomes of it, and come back to the table and discuss your results? The main limitation in every human study about nutrition is that no two humans are alike. Some bodies process certain things better, while others do so worse. For instance, my body loves dairy, but give me bread and you better head for the hills to escape my draft.
Just try stuff out, make it work for you, and you will have a pretty good hypothesis about you! :-)
Good day! #NoPityForTheKitty!
why would I run an experiment on myself and torture myself by eating little or no carbs when I already eat carbs and have lost weight, and kept it off?????
Wow. I agree.
I ate that way (basically SAD with a goal towards moderating my intake) for decades. I'm not going back to that. It was a fail for me.PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
To address the two articles with deficiencies found, the first article where the two patients were diagnosed with optic neuropathy, both sets of parents in both case studies admitted that they were not giving the children the prescribed vitamin and mineral supplements. While this does support the claim that the ketogenic diet is lacking in some nutrients, it doesn't provide evidence that people who do keto diets and are obtaining the proper nutrients are at risk.
In the second article, the patient was found to be deficient in selenium, which led to a dilated cardiomyopathy. But later in the article, it states that "Dietary selenium is found in the highest concentrations in meat and seafood," which would be staples of the keto diet. It also states that "Assessment of selenium status is difficult because no optimal method is known. Dietary assessment is inaccurate, and selenium content depends on where the food was grown (soil content), which is usually unknown," which indicates that selenium deficiency is not unique to a keto diet and could occur even in people who eat a diet rich in grains and veggies simply based on location.
It is disappointing that most of the research around keto diets seems to relate to epilepsy as that makes the results difficult to translate to the larger population. Some of the treatments seem to impact nutrient absorption and issues around oral ingestion of foods make it difficult for researchers to get accurate data. That's not to say that a keto diet is not going to have deficiencies, it would just be helpful if the research were more applicable to genpop.
Yeah, another drawback is that most of the research is on children, and most of them are prescribed supplements from the get-go because the diet itself is recognized as being nutrient deficient.
You sort of have to add 2 and 2 here.
Why is the diet inherently nutrient deficient?
Do we have a source anywhere stating which nutrients are deficient on a keto diet following the tenets of the diet? I'm not sure nutrient deficiencies in epileptic kids is the best baseline given the illness and the fact they are still growing, and all I've found from google is concerns about magnesium and recommendations to eat nuts. But that also goes with keto diets which include vegetables, because keto includes vegetables to a degree. I also haven't seen anything on how deficient - are we talking a multivitamin that many people take no matter how they eat, or are we headed into heavy duty supplementation of certain nutrients?
I don't think no carb diet even exists, perhaps @umayster can shed some light on diet planning and supplements for no veggie diets and how that would work.
Every source I posted said the diet itself wasn't providing enough nutrition.
It certainly is lacking in calcium... this is just off the top of my head without coffee and in a rush. Keto proponents don't eat dairy except for small amounts of cream. Calcium supplementation was needed, and I suspect that children wouldn't be the only followers of the diet (women come to mind here) needing calcium.
I doubt the average keto'er in nutritional ketosis (not treating epilepsy) is low in calcium. Green leafy veggies are a favourite among many because of flavor, bulk and low carb content. I would guess we eat cheese pretty regularly, and indulge in many high fat dairy products like whipping cream, cheese, sour cream and plain yogurt. Plus fat is needed for calcium absorption so a LCHF diet could be a benefit.
If a keto'er (or anyone for that matter) does not like foods rich in calcium, take a calcium supplement.
The vegetable comment was in reference to your own diet. As for epilepsy and the diet I'm not sure, other then kgeyser asking up thread about issues (health related like dehydration, bone fractures, etc.) with a keto diet, where the diet was referenced. The epilepsy site references some of the negative effects of the diet. And, a modified Atkins diet with adequate protein seems reasonable. When people exclude fruits, vegetables, and eat well below minimum calorie recommendation for this site as well as borderline vlcd the diet doesn't seem healthy. JMO.0 -
_Terrapin_ wrote: »_Terrapin_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Maybe it makes them feel bad? Maybe they like to experiment? Sugar is fun to eat, but no one will suffer ill health without it.
Eating no veggies isn't good for you. Yeah, there are ways to make up the micronutrients (although I suspect they aren't as good), but the vast majority of people who mostly cut out veggies don't actually eat lots of organ meats and the like. (And the traditional Inuit diet, while not keto, doesn't compete with the blue zone diets anyway.)
So claiming eating no veggies is perfectly healthy seems inaccurate.
I think this is more of an opinion than a proven fact.
I do eat veggies. I like them and think they are good for me, but I'm not sure that eating no veggies has been proven harmful for people.
While I agree with this being an opinion, I'm also thinking that no veggies (or fruits) could be harmful in a small sense because....there wouldn't be much quality potty time going on without them! Tons of meat and cheese! Just thinking about the constipation makes me cringe.
Most keto'ers, including me, do not experience constipation. The fats, for me it is largely MCT's (coconut oil), keeps me moving very well. In fact it is almost too well.
Veggies and fibre supplements were a fail for me. I was much much slower before changing to a ketogenic diet.
I'm also of the opinion that fibre is mainly important for helping to move carbohydrates on through. If carbs are lower, then the need for fibre just isn't there.
Granted, too much cheese will slow thngs for many people, but that's not specific to a low carb diet.
As for nutrition, I've only been in ketosis for 5 months, but no problems so far. I am not carb free though. I eat a few veggies every day - more that my "normal" eating husband and two of my kids eat. I do take a multivitamin, but I have for years. No change there.
I would like to suggest that people who are googling keto look at a nutritional ketogenic diet rather than the medically ordered, strict ketogenic diet of those with epilepsy. They really are quite different.
The 2 IRL k-e-t-o friends who I discuss this with both have constipation. Both have been doing this diet for over a year and the one even longer. The individual who has been doing it longer also has epilepsy. He follows a modified Atkins method which provides less restriction then the traditional k-e-t-o diet. It provides for up to 35% protein and can be found on the epilepsy site up thread that I linked.
As far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
*edit spell check made k-e-t-o the word kept
Constipation really isn't the norm. I would hazard a guess that your friends are not getting enough sodium or magnesium; if they increased those they might improve. It could be from certain foods that their bodies have issue with such as cheese. If they were able to expriment a bit (difficult on a medical diet) they may be able to resolve it.
I don't think I'm a special snowflake and one of the rare keto'er who does not have constipation. My conversations with other low carbers would negate that too.
...and most keto'ers get more than a cup of veggies per week! Do you really think that is typical? This is why people need to NOT look at epileptic diets. They are not nutritional ketogenic diets.
Yesterday, not an unusual carb day for me even though I "fat fasted" (only coconut oil) until 4:00pm, I had about1/2 cup macadamia nuts, about 1/3 cup green beans, and later on some celery (with my pork rinds) dipped in an artichoke asiago dip. That was pretty much spot on my usual upper limit of carbs - 18g of carbs which worked out to 3 g of sugar.
And that is just me. Many keto'ers, especially those more active than me, eat many more carbs than I do. A few eat less. The few I know who have been eating very few carbs, and basically no sugar, have fine health.rockstarjosh wrote: »This is good entertainment! Hardly a scientific debate, since there is so much mudslinging (or, "facepalming"), but here is a scientific idea: How about you each experiment with your opponent's hypothesis, see what becomes of it, and come back to the table and discuss your results? The main limitation in every human study about nutrition is that no two humans are alike. Some bodies process certain things better, while others do so worse. For instance, my body loves dairy, but give me bread and you better head for the hills to escape my draft.
Just try stuff out, make it work for you, and you will have a pretty good hypothesis about you! :-)
Good day! #NoPityForTheKitty!
why would I run an experiment on myself and torture myself by eating little or no carbs when I already eat carbs and have lost weight, and kept it off?????
Wow. I agree.
I ate that way (basically SAD with a goal towards moderating my intake) for decades. I'm not going back to that. It was a fail for me.PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
To address the two articles with deficiencies found, the first article where the two patients were diagnosed with optic neuropathy, both sets of parents in both case studies admitted that they were not giving the children the prescribed vitamin and mineral supplements. While this does support the claim that the ketogenic diet is lacking in some nutrients, it doesn't provide evidence that people who do keto diets and are obtaining the proper nutrients are at risk.
In the second article, the patient was found to be deficient in selenium, which led to a dilated cardiomyopathy. But later in the article, it states that "Dietary selenium is found in the highest concentrations in meat and seafood," which would be staples of the keto diet. It also states that "Assessment of selenium status is difficult because no optimal method is known. Dietary assessment is inaccurate, and selenium content depends on where the food was grown (soil content), which is usually unknown," which indicates that selenium deficiency is not unique to a keto diet and could occur even in people who eat a diet rich in grains and veggies simply based on location.
It is disappointing that most of the research around keto diets seems to relate to epilepsy as that makes the results difficult to translate to the larger population. Some of the treatments seem to impact nutrient absorption and issues around oral ingestion of foods make it difficult for researchers to get accurate data. That's not to say that a keto diet is not going to have deficiencies, it would just be helpful if the research were more applicable to genpop.
Yeah, another drawback is that most of the research is on children, and most of them are prescribed supplements from the get-go because the diet itself is recognized as being nutrient deficient.
You sort of have to add 2 and 2 here.
Why is the diet inherently nutrient deficient?
Do we have a source anywhere stating which nutrients are deficient on a keto diet following the tenets of the diet? I'm not sure nutrient deficiencies in epileptic kids is the best baseline given the illness and the fact they are still growing, and all I've found from google is concerns about magnesium and recommendations to eat nuts. But that also goes with keto diets which include vegetables, because keto includes vegetables to a degree. I also haven't seen anything on how deficient - are we talking a multivitamin that many people take no matter how they eat, or are we headed into heavy duty supplementation of certain nutrients?
I don't think no carb diet even exists, perhaps @umayster can shed some light on diet planning and supplements for no veggie diets and how that would work.
Every source I posted said the diet itself wasn't providing enough nutrition.
It certainly is lacking in calcium... this is just off the top of my head without coffee and in a rush. Keto proponents don't eat dairy except for small amounts of cream. Calcium supplementation was needed, and I suspect that children wouldn't be the only followers of the diet (women come to mind here) needing calcium.
I doubt the average keto'er in nutritional ketosis (not treating epilepsy) is low in calcium. Green leafy veggies are a favourite among many because of flavor, bulk and low carb content. I would guess we eat cheese pretty regularly, and indulge in many high fat dairy products like whipping cream, cheese, sour cream and plain yogurt. Plus fat is needed for calcium absorption so a LCHF diet could be a benefit.
If a keto'er (or anyone for that matter) does not like foods rich in calcium, take a calcium supplement.
The vegetable comment was in reference to your own diet. You consume, on average, about a cup a week of vegetables. I think very few people on a k-e-t-o diet eat like this, but there are a few.
I thought that was aimed at me but it is largely mistaken. While I do have periods of low veggie consumption, like this past week when I was "fat fasting", one cup of vegetables per week is not my average. I exceeded that yesterday with nuts, green beans and celery.
And when you saidAs far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
...I don't think I measure and weigh foods differently than others. Sort of an odd comment to make so I over looked it. I am pretty aware of how much I eat.
Perhaps you are implying that my veggie intake does not meet the recommended daily serving numbers put out by... whomever? No it definitely doesn't, although it IS higher than a cup per week. I'm happy with that.0 -
I dropped 10 # easily by cutting out processed sugar and regular sugar.0
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The weight came off quickly--not in a month but steadily over 4 months. i also feel more energy, none of the highs and lows associated with eating candy bars, which I love!0
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