Could you spend a day without any sugar?
Replies
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PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
To address the two articles with deficiencies found, the first article where the two patients were diagnosed with optic neuropathy, both sets of parents in both case studies admitted that they were not giving the children the prescribed vitamin and mineral supplements. While this does support the claim that the ketogenic diet is lacking in some nutrients, it doesn't provide evidence that people who do keto diets and are obtaining the proper nutrients are at risk.
In the second article, the patient was found to be deficient in selenium, which led to a dilated cardiomyopathy. But later in the article, it states that "Dietary selenium is found in the highest concentrations in meat and seafood," which would be staples of the keto diet. It also states that "Assessment of selenium status is difficult because no optimal method is known. Dietary assessment is inaccurate, and selenium content depends on where the food was grown (soil content), which is usually unknown," which indicates that selenium deficiency is not unique to a keto diet and could occur even in people who eat a diet rich in grains and veggies simply based on location.
It is disappointing that most of the research around keto diets seems to relate to epilepsy as that makes the results difficult to translate to the larger population. Some of the treatments seem to impact nutrient absorption and issues around oral ingestion of foods make it difficult for researchers to get accurate data. That's not to say that a keto diet is not going to have deficiencies, it would just be helpful if the research were more applicable to genpop.
Yeah, another drawback is that most of the research is on children, and most of them are prescribed supplements from the get-go because the diet itself is recognized as being nutrient deficient.
You sort of have to add 2 and 2 here.
Why is the diet inherently nutrient deficient?
It isn't.
That runs contrary to every source I posted. The doctors medically prescribing it for epilepsy who added supplements to it because it wasn't providing enough nutrition by itself disagree with you.
Cool, those of us on a ketogenic diet designed for epileptics are under care of a doc and you needn't worry.
Those of us on a non-epilepsy diet are able to fulfill our nutrients with food. It really isn't any more difficult than a 'moderation' diet.
Did you have nutrient problems when you were doing ketogenic diet?
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PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
To address the two articles with deficiencies found, the first article where the two patients were diagnosed with optic neuropathy, both sets of parents in both case studies admitted that they were not giving the children the prescribed vitamin and mineral supplements. While this does support the claim that the ketogenic diet is lacking in some nutrients, it doesn't provide evidence that people who do keto diets and are obtaining the proper nutrients are at risk.
In the second article, the patient was found to be deficient in selenium, which led to a dilated cardiomyopathy. But later in the article, it states that "Dietary selenium is found in the highest concentrations in meat and seafood," which would be staples of the keto diet. It also states that "Assessment of selenium status is difficult because no optimal method is known. Dietary assessment is inaccurate, and selenium content depends on where the food was grown (soil content), which is usually unknown," which indicates that selenium deficiency is not unique to a keto diet and could occur even in people who eat a diet rich in grains and veggies simply based on location.
It is disappointing that most of the research around keto diets seems to relate to epilepsy as that makes the results difficult to translate to the larger population. Some of the treatments seem to impact nutrient absorption and issues around oral ingestion of foods make it difficult for researchers to get accurate data. That's not to say that a keto diet is not going to have deficiencies, it would just be helpful if the research were more applicable to genpop.
Yeah, another drawback is that most of the research is on children, and most of them are prescribed supplements from the get-go because the diet itself is recognized as being nutrient deficient.
You sort of have to add 2 and 2 here.
Why is the diet inherently nutrient deficient?
It isn't.
That runs contrary to every source I posted. The doctors medically prescribing it for epilepsy who added supplements to it because it wasn't providing enough nutrition by itself disagree with you.
Cool, those of us on a ketogenic diet designed for epileptics are under care of a doc and you needn't worry.
Those of us on a non-epilepsy diet are able to fulfill our nutrients with food. It really isn't any more difficult than a 'moderation' diet.
Did you have nutrient problems when you were doing ketogenic diet?
Cool, then we won't be needing to proclaim the ketogenic diet superior to other diets for all parties anymore.
Agreed everyone? Break!0 -
This is the thing I wonder about. Do people who swear off of fruits and such think about things like scurvy? Do they know how quickly it shows up?PeachyCarol wrote: »I want to know where the people not eating fruits, veggies, or grains are getting their nutrition from if they're not eating organ meats?
Here's one guy's view http://www.ruled.me/introduction-micronutrients/ which shows only Vit C as a challenge without organ meats I think.
I've seen people say things like, "Vitamin deficiencies take years to develop." I never say, "Not always!" but I think it. Without vitamin C, you can get scurvy in a couple months.
I'm sure the members here are mostly paying attention to their nutrients, but there are so many goofballs out there going on wacky diets with absolutely no regard for their health.
I'm so on the fence with the whole keto thing, but do hope that those who suggest it remind people to get their nutrients.0 -
This is the thing I wonder about. Do people who swear off of fruits and such think about things like scurvy? Do they know how quickly it shows up?PeachyCarol wrote: »I want to know where the people not eating fruits, veggies, or grains are getting their nutrition from if they're not eating organ meats?
Here's one guy's view http://www.ruled.me/introduction-micronutrients/ which shows only Vit C as a challenge without organ meats I think.
I've seen people say things like, "Vitamin deficiencies take years to develop." I never say, "Not always!" but I think it. Without vitamin C, you can get scurvy in a couple months.
I'm sure the members here are mostly paying attention to their nutrients, but there are so many goofballs out there going on wacky diets with absolutely no regard for their health.
I'm so on the fence with the whole keto thing, but do hope that those who suggest it remind people to get their nutrients.
Scurvy is rather rare, it's pretty much a very advanced Vit C deficiency - the effect of a deficiency occur much before outright scurvy. I've read that the deficiency is estimated to be present in about 10% of the pop.0 -
I don't like how I feel when I eat foods with added sugar so I don't eat them. I also generally only eat fruits that have lower sugar carb (for example I eat berries instead of mangos and cantaloupe instead of watermelon). I don't think everybody is the same in this regard but this is how I feel best.0
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_Terrapin_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Maybe it makes them feel bad? Maybe they like to experiment? Sugar is fun to eat, but no one will suffer ill health without it.
Eating no veggies isn't good for you. Yeah, there are ways to make up the micronutrients (although I suspect they aren't as good), but the vast majority of people who mostly cut out veggies don't actually eat lots of organ meats and the like. (And the traditional Inuit diet, while not keto, doesn't compete with the blue zone diets anyway.)
So claiming eating no veggies is perfectly healthy seems inaccurate.
I think this is more of an opinion than a proven fact.
I do eat veggies. I like them and think they are good for me, but I'm not sure that eating no veggies has been proven harmful for people.
While I agree with this being an opinion, I'm also thinking that no veggies (or fruits) could be harmful in a small sense because....there wouldn't be much quality potty time going on without them! Tons of meat and cheese! Just thinking about the constipation makes me cringe.
Most keto'ers, including me, do not experience constipation. The fats, for me it is largely MCT's (coconut oil), keeps me moving very well. In fact it is almost too well.
Veggies and fibre supplements were a fail for me. I was much much slower before changing to a ketogenic diet.
I'm also of the opinion that fibre is mainly important for helping to move carbohydrates on through. If carbs are lower, then the need for fibre just isn't there.
Granted, too much cheese will slow thngs for many people, but that's not specific to a low carb diet.
As for nutrition, I've only been in ketosis for 5 months, but no problems so far. I am not carb free though. I eat a few veggies every day - more that my "normal" eating husband and two of my kids eat. I do take a multivitamin, but I have for years. No change there.
I would like to suggest that people who are googling keto look at a nutritional ketogenic diet rather than the medically ordered, strict ketogenic diet of those with epilepsy. They really are quite different.
The 2 IRL k-e-t-o friends who I discuss this with both have constipation. Both have been doing this diet for over a year and the one even longer. The individual who has been doing it longer also has epilepsy. He follows a modified Atkins method which provides less restriction then the traditional k-e-t-o diet. It provides for up to 35% protein and can be found on the epilepsy site up thread that I linked.
As far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
*edit spell check made k-e-t-o the word kept
Constipation really isn't the norm. I would hazard a guess that your friends are not getting enough sodium or magnesium; if they increased those they might improve. It could be from certain foods that their bodies have issue with such as cheese. If they were able to expriment a bit (difficult on a medical diet) they may be able to resolve it.
I don't think I'm a special snowflake and one of the rare keto'er who does not have constipation. My conversations with other low carbers would negate that too.
...and most keto'ers get more than a cup of veggies per week! Do you really think that is typical? This is why people need to NOT look at epileptic diets. They are not nutritional ketogenic diets.
Yesterday, not an unusual carb day for me even though I "fat fasted" (only coconut oil) until 4:00pm, I had about1/2 cup macadamia nuts, about 1/3 cup green beans, and later on some celery (with my pork rinds) dipped in an artichoke asiago dip. That was pretty much spot on my usual upper limit of carbs - 18g of carbs which worked out to 3 g of sugar.
And that is just me. Many keto'ers, especially those more active than me, eat many more carbs than I do. A few eat less. The few I know who have been eating very few carbs, and basically no sugar, have fine health.rockstarjosh wrote: »This is good entertainment! Hardly a scientific debate, since there is so much mudslinging (or, "facepalming"), but here is a scientific idea: How about you each experiment with your opponent's hypothesis, see what becomes of it, and come back to the table and discuss your results? The main limitation in every human study about nutrition is that no two humans are alike. Some bodies process certain things better, while others do so worse. For instance, my body loves dairy, but give me bread and you better head for the hills to escape my draft.
Just try stuff out, make it work for you, and you will have a pretty good hypothesis about you! :-)
Good day! #NoPityForTheKitty!
why would I run an experiment on myself and torture myself by eating little or no carbs when I already eat carbs and have lost weight, and kept it off?????
Wow. I agree.
I ate that way (basically SAD with a goal towards moderating my intake) for decades. I'm not going back to that. It was a fail for me.PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
To address the two articles with deficiencies found, the first article where the two patients were diagnosed with optic neuropathy, both sets of parents in both case studies admitted that they were not giving the children the prescribed vitamin and mineral supplements. While this does support the claim that the ketogenic diet is lacking in some nutrients, it doesn't provide evidence that people who do keto diets and are obtaining the proper nutrients are at risk.
In the second article, the patient was found to be deficient in selenium, which led to a dilated cardiomyopathy. But later in the article, it states that "Dietary selenium is found in the highest concentrations in meat and seafood," which would be staples of the keto diet. It also states that "Assessment of selenium status is difficult because no optimal method is known. Dietary assessment is inaccurate, and selenium content depends on where the food was grown (soil content), which is usually unknown," which indicates that selenium deficiency is not unique to a keto diet and could occur even in people who eat a diet rich in grains and veggies simply based on location.
It is disappointing that most of the research around keto diets seems to relate to epilepsy as that makes the results difficult to translate to the larger population. Some of the treatments seem to impact nutrient absorption and issues around oral ingestion of foods make it difficult for researchers to get accurate data. That's not to say that a keto diet is not going to have deficiencies, it would just be helpful if the research were more applicable to genpop.
Yeah, another drawback is that most of the research is on children, and most of them are prescribed supplements from the get-go because the diet itself is recognized as being nutrient deficient.
You sort of have to add 2 and 2 here.
Why is the diet inherently nutrient deficient?
Do we have a source anywhere stating which nutrients are deficient on a keto diet following the tenets of the diet? I'm not sure nutrient deficiencies in epileptic kids is the best baseline given the illness and the fact they are still growing, and all I've found from google is concerns about magnesium and recommendations to eat nuts. But that also goes with keto diets which include vegetables, because keto includes vegetables to a degree. I also haven't seen anything on how deficient - are we talking a multivitamin that many people take no matter how they eat, or are we headed into heavy duty supplementation of certain nutrients?
I don't think no carb diet even exists, perhaps @umayster can shed some light on diet planning and supplements for no veggie diets and how that would work.
Every source I posted said the diet itself wasn't providing enough nutrition.
It certainly is lacking in calcium... this is just off the top of my head without coffee and in a rush. Keto proponents don't eat dairy except for small amounts of cream. Calcium supplementation was needed, and I suspect that children wouldn't be the only followers of the diet (women come to mind here) needing calcium.
I doubt the average keto'er in nutritional ketosis (not treating epilepsy) is low in calcium. Green leafy veggies are a favourite among many because of flavor, bulk and low carb content. I would guess we eat cheese pretty regularly, and indulge in many high fat dairy products like whipping cream, cheese, sour cream and plain yogurt. Plus fat is needed for calcium absorption so a LCHF diet could be a benefit.
If a keto'er (or anyone for that matter) does not like foods rich in calcium, take a calcium supplement.
The vegetable comment was in reference to your own diet. As for epilepsy and the diet I'm not sure, other then kgeyser asking up thread about issues (health related like dehydration, bone fractures, etc.) with a keto diet, where the diet was referenced. The epilepsy site references some of the negative effects of the diet. And, a modified Atkins diet with adequate protein seems reasonable. When people exclude fruits, vegetables, and eat well below minimum calorie recommendation for this site as well as borderline vlcd the diet doesn't seem healthy. JMO.0 -
_Terrapin_ wrote: »_Terrapin_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Maybe it makes them feel bad? Maybe they like to experiment? Sugar is fun to eat, but no one will suffer ill health without it.
Eating no veggies isn't good for you. Yeah, there are ways to make up the micronutrients (although I suspect they aren't as good), but the vast majority of people who mostly cut out veggies don't actually eat lots of organ meats and the like. (And the traditional Inuit diet, while not keto, doesn't compete with the blue zone diets anyway.)
So claiming eating no veggies is perfectly healthy seems inaccurate.
I think this is more of an opinion than a proven fact.
I do eat veggies. I like them and think they are good for me, but I'm not sure that eating no veggies has been proven harmful for people.
While I agree with this being an opinion, I'm also thinking that no veggies (or fruits) could be harmful in a small sense because....there wouldn't be much quality potty time going on without them! Tons of meat and cheese! Just thinking about the constipation makes me cringe.
Most keto'ers, including me, do not experience constipation. The fats, for me it is largely MCT's (coconut oil), keeps me moving very well. In fact it is almost too well.
Veggies and fibre supplements were a fail for me. I was much much slower before changing to a ketogenic diet.
I'm also of the opinion that fibre is mainly important for helping to move carbohydrates on through. If carbs are lower, then the need for fibre just isn't there.
Granted, too much cheese will slow thngs for many people, but that's not specific to a low carb diet.
As for nutrition, I've only been in ketosis for 5 months, but no problems so far. I am not carb free though. I eat a few veggies every day - more that my "normal" eating husband and two of my kids eat. I do take a multivitamin, but I have for years. No change there.
I would like to suggest that people who are googling keto look at a nutritional ketogenic diet rather than the medically ordered, strict ketogenic diet of those with epilepsy. They really are quite different.
The 2 IRL k-e-t-o friends who I discuss this with both have constipation. Both have been doing this diet for over a year and the one even longer. The individual who has been doing it longer also has epilepsy. He follows a modified Atkins method which provides less restriction then the traditional k-e-t-o diet. It provides for up to 35% protein and can be found on the epilepsy site up thread that I linked.
As far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
*edit spell check made k-e-t-o the word kept
Constipation really isn't the norm. I would hazard a guess that your friends are not getting enough sodium or magnesium; if they increased those they might improve. It could be from certain foods that their bodies have issue with such as cheese. If they were able to expriment a bit (difficult on a medical diet) they may be able to resolve it.
I don't think I'm a special snowflake and one of the rare keto'er who does not have constipation. My conversations with other low carbers would negate that too.
...and most keto'ers get more than a cup of veggies per week! Do you really think that is typical? This is why people need to NOT look at epileptic diets. They are not nutritional ketogenic diets.
Yesterday, not an unusual carb day for me even though I "fat fasted" (only coconut oil) until 4:00pm, I had about1/2 cup macadamia nuts, about 1/3 cup green beans, and later on some celery (with my pork rinds) dipped in an artichoke asiago dip. That was pretty much spot on my usual upper limit of carbs - 18g of carbs which worked out to 3 g of sugar.
And that is just me. Many keto'ers, especially those more active than me, eat many more carbs than I do. A few eat less. The few I know who have been eating very few carbs, and basically no sugar, have fine health.rockstarjosh wrote: »This is good entertainment! Hardly a scientific debate, since there is so much mudslinging (or, "facepalming"), but here is a scientific idea: How about you each experiment with your opponent's hypothesis, see what becomes of it, and come back to the table and discuss your results? The main limitation in every human study about nutrition is that no two humans are alike. Some bodies process certain things better, while others do so worse. For instance, my body loves dairy, but give me bread and you better head for the hills to escape my draft.
Just try stuff out, make it work for you, and you will have a pretty good hypothesis about you! :-)
Good day! #NoPityForTheKitty!
why would I run an experiment on myself and torture myself by eating little or no carbs when I already eat carbs and have lost weight, and kept it off?????
Wow. I agree.
I ate that way (basically SAD with a goal towards moderating my intake) for decades. I'm not going back to that. It was a fail for me.PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
To address the two articles with deficiencies found, the first article where the two patients were diagnosed with optic neuropathy, both sets of parents in both case studies admitted that they were not giving the children the prescribed vitamin and mineral supplements. While this does support the claim that the ketogenic diet is lacking in some nutrients, it doesn't provide evidence that people who do keto diets and are obtaining the proper nutrients are at risk.
In the second article, the patient was found to be deficient in selenium, which led to a dilated cardiomyopathy. But later in the article, it states that "Dietary selenium is found in the highest concentrations in meat and seafood," which would be staples of the keto diet. It also states that "Assessment of selenium status is difficult because no optimal method is known. Dietary assessment is inaccurate, and selenium content depends on where the food was grown (soil content), which is usually unknown," which indicates that selenium deficiency is not unique to a keto diet and could occur even in people who eat a diet rich in grains and veggies simply based on location.
It is disappointing that most of the research around keto diets seems to relate to epilepsy as that makes the results difficult to translate to the larger population. Some of the treatments seem to impact nutrient absorption and issues around oral ingestion of foods make it difficult for researchers to get accurate data. That's not to say that a keto diet is not going to have deficiencies, it would just be helpful if the research were more applicable to genpop.
Yeah, another drawback is that most of the research is on children, and most of them are prescribed supplements from the get-go because the diet itself is recognized as being nutrient deficient.
You sort of have to add 2 and 2 here.
Why is the diet inherently nutrient deficient?
Do we have a source anywhere stating which nutrients are deficient on a keto diet following the tenets of the diet? I'm not sure nutrient deficiencies in epileptic kids is the best baseline given the illness and the fact they are still growing, and all I've found from google is concerns about magnesium and recommendations to eat nuts. But that also goes with keto diets which include vegetables, because keto includes vegetables to a degree. I also haven't seen anything on how deficient - are we talking a multivitamin that many people take no matter how they eat, or are we headed into heavy duty supplementation of certain nutrients?
I don't think no carb diet even exists, perhaps @umayster can shed some light on diet planning and supplements for no veggie diets and how that would work.
Every source I posted said the diet itself wasn't providing enough nutrition.
It certainly is lacking in calcium... this is just off the top of my head without coffee and in a rush. Keto proponents don't eat dairy except for small amounts of cream. Calcium supplementation was needed, and I suspect that children wouldn't be the only followers of the diet (women come to mind here) needing calcium.
I doubt the average keto'er in nutritional ketosis (not treating epilepsy) is low in calcium. Green leafy veggies are a favourite among many because of flavor, bulk and low carb content. I would guess we eat cheese pretty regularly, and indulge in many high fat dairy products like whipping cream, cheese, sour cream and plain yogurt. Plus fat is needed for calcium absorption so a LCHF diet could be a benefit.
If a keto'er (or anyone for that matter) does not like foods rich in calcium, take a calcium supplement.
The vegetable comment was in reference to your own diet. You consume, on average, about a cup a week of vegetables. I think very few people on a k-e-t-o diet eat like this, but there are a few.
I thought that was aimed at me but it is largely mistaken. While I do have periods of low veggie consumption, like this past week when I was "fat fasting", one cup of vegetables per week is not my average. I exceeded that yesterday with nuts, green beans and celery.
And when you saidAs far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
...I don't think I measure and weigh foods differently than others. Sort of an odd comment to make so I over looked it. I am pretty aware of how much I eat.
Perhaps you are implying that my veggie intake does not meet the recommended daily serving numbers put out by... whomever? No it definitely doesn't, although it IS higher than a cup per week. I'm happy with that.0 -
I dropped 10 # easily by cutting out processed sugar and regular sugar.0
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The weight came off quickly--not in a month but steadily over 4 months. i also feel more energy, none of the highs and lows associated with eating candy bars, which I love!0
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I doubt that loss of highs and lows was a placebo effect.0 -
it's very rare in America and easily treated if people have access to Vitamin C and medical care. In some places, it's not uncommon...and many simple things that we never even consider aren't uncommonly turned into huge problems...and it's very sad. But that's not really an issue for us.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »
This is the thing I wonder about. Do people who swear off of fruits and such think about things like scurvy? Do they know how quickly it shows up?PeachyCarol wrote: »I want to know where the people not eating fruits, veggies, or grains are getting their nutrition from if they're not eating organ meats?
Here's one guy's view http://www.ruled.me/introduction-micronutrients/ which shows only Vit C as a challenge without organ meats I think.
I've seen people say things like, "Vitamin deficiencies take years to develop." I never say, "Not always!" but I think it. Without vitamin C, you can get scurvy in a couple months.
I'm sure the members here are mostly paying attention to their nutrients, but there are so many goofballs out there going on wacky diets with absolutely no regard for their health.
I'm so on the fence with the whole keto thing, but do hope that those who suggest it remind people to get their nutrients.
Scurvy is rather rare, it's pretty much a very advanced Vit C deficiency - the effect of a deficiency occur much before outright scurvy. I've read that the deficiency is estimated to be present in about 10% of the pop.
Still a couple months without vitamin C and you could easily end up with scurvy.
One guy wrote about how he was eating nothing but bacon and jerky. I remember wondering if those things would have any Vitamin C left. Hope so!
I honestly don't know if people get all their nutrients when eating keto diets. I assume they CAN, but do they all? I don't know.
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WinoGelato wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
To address the two articles with deficiencies found, the first article where the two patients were diagnosed with optic neuropathy, both sets of parents in both case studies admitted that they were not giving the children the prescribed vitamin and mineral supplements. While this does support the claim that the ketogenic diet is lacking in some nutrients, it doesn't provide evidence that people who do keto diets and are obtaining the proper nutrients are at risk.
In the second article, the patient was found to be deficient in selenium, which led to a dilated cardiomyopathy. But later in the article, it states that "Dietary selenium is found in the highest concentrations in meat and seafood," which would be staples of the keto diet. It also states that "Assessment of selenium status is difficult because no optimal method is known. Dietary assessment is inaccurate, and selenium content depends on where the food was grown (soil content), which is usually unknown," which indicates that selenium deficiency is not unique to a keto diet and could occur even in people who eat a diet rich in grains and veggies simply based on location.
It is disappointing that most of the research around keto diets seems to relate to epilepsy as that makes the results difficult to translate to the larger population. Some of the treatments seem to impact nutrient absorption and issues around oral ingestion of foods make it difficult for researchers to get accurate data. That's not to say that a keto diet is not going to have deficiencies, it would just be helpful if the research were more applicable to genpop.
Yeah, another drawback is that most of the research is on children, and most of them are prescribed supplements from the get-go because the diet itself is recognized as being nutrient deficient.
You sort of have to add 2 and 2 here.
Why is the diet inherently nutrient deficient?
It isn't.
That runs contrary to every source I posted. The doctors medically prescribing it for epilepsy who added supplements to it because it wasn't providing enough nutrition by itself disagree with you.
Cool, those of us on a ketogenic diet designed for epileptics are under care of a doc and you needn't worry.
Those of us on a non-epilepsy diet are able to fulfill our nutrients with food. It really isn't any more difficult than a 'moderation' diet.
Did you have nutrient problems when you were doing ketogenic diet?
Cool, then we won't be needing to proclaim the ketogenic diet superior to other diets for all parties anymore.
Agreed everyone? Break!
No one claimed a ketogenic diet superior for all parties.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
Ketogenic diets are quite extreme in macro and content when designed for drug resistant epileptics who may have multiple severe health issues and pharmaceutical interventions. I gave up reading the studies on epileptic ketogenic diets because it is a different animal than a diet filled with relatively normal proteins and fats and eaten by folks without multiple significant health issues.
Where do you get your calcium?
Cream, cheese, sour cream, nuts, veggies, eggs, seafood and hotdogs primarily.
You're getting the full 1,000 mg a day from that? Really?
Most days, yes. I have a great love for cheese. Thank you.0 -
I'm interested @umayster you are clearly a long term committed keto dieter
So may I ask, when did you start keto, how much weight have you lost, are you at goal? If not how much more weight till goal? Will you remain keto for life? Do you do any endurance form of exercise, what's your fitness level? Does your diet support your fitness goals?
0 -
I doubt that loss of highs and lows was a placebo effect.
Actually, I would say it mostly is. Studies have been done repeatedly and every well designed one that actually has double blinded properly finds that sugar doesn't cause any hyperactivity (highs if you will).0 -
Wait. Nuts are vegetables now?0
-
The most interesting anecdote I've seen is what happened to the guy who came up with Soylent. While he was living as his own experimental subject for making it, he started having heart problems (palpitations I believe) from an iron deficiency. This was a guy intentionally researching how much to supplement and live off of supplements with the hopes of formulated a universal food for people - and he screwed up his iron of all things, not exactly one of the more esoteric nutrients to forget about.
I wonder if he forgot to take account of bioavailability - iron from meat is more available etc.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »Wait. Nuts are vegetables now?
Only the Jolly Green Giant's.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
Ketogenic diets are quite extreme in macro and content when designed for drug resistant epileptics who may have multiple severe health issues and pharmaceutical interventions. I gave up reading the studies on epileptic ketogenic diets because it is a different animal than a diet filled with relatively normal proteins and fats and eaten by folks without multiple significant health issues.
Where do you get your calcium?
Cream, cheese, sour cream, nuts, veggies, eggs, seafood and hotdogs primarily.
You're getting the full 1,000 mg a day from that? Really?
Most days, yes. I have a great love for cheese. Thank you.
You eat about 500 calories of cheese every day to lose weight?
Wow! What's your daily calorie budget like? A typical day's menu?0 -
No. Not necessary.0
-
PeachyCarol wrote: »
And that amount is a whopping 456 calories. I've seen the diaries of the keto adherents eating at deficit. That's a huge chunk of their daily allowance, and they're not eating it.
We've established that the peer reviewed science shows adequate Calcium etc intake on low carb diets, or no worse than calorie restricted diets. 100g of cheese with 410 cals 25g protein and 34g of fat may or may not be part of someone's diet and provides 93% of the NRV here. 4 ozs of cheese is part of Atkins Phase 1.
You seem to have moved from "where on earth do they get calcium from" to nitpicking the milligrams. Have fun.
If calcium is an issue then supplement for it - like the State administered flour supplementation that bread eaters etc benefit from, or fortified breakfast cereals, or a Snickers bar.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000118000000000000000-w.html
0 -
_Terrapin_ wrote: »_Terrapin_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Maybe it makes them feel bad? Maybe they like to experiment? Sugar is fun to eat, but no one will suffer ill health without it.
Eating no veggies isn't good for you. Yeah, there are ways to make up the micronutrients (although I suspect they aren't as good), but the vast majority of people who mostly cut out veggies don't actually eat lots of organ meats and the like. (And the traditional Inuit diet, while not keto, doesn't compete with the blue zone diets anyway.)
So claiming eating no veggies is perfectly healthy seems inaccurate.
I think this is more of an opinion than a proven fact.
I do eat veggies. I like them and think they are good for me, but I'm not sure that eating no veggies has been proven harmful for people.
While I agree with this being an opinion, I'm also thinking that no veggies (or fruits) could be harmful in a small sense because....there wouldn't be much quality potty time going on without them! Tons of meat and cheese! Just thinking about the constipation makes me cringe.
Most keto'ers, including me, do not experience constipation. The fats, for me it is largely MCT's (coconut oil), keeps me moving very well. In fact it is almost too well.
Veggies and fibre supplements were a fail for me. I was much much slower before changing to a ketogenic diet.
I'm also of the opinion that fibre is mainly important for helping to move carbohydrates on through. If carbs are lower, then the need for fibre just isn't there.
Granted, too much cheese will slow thngs for many people, but that's not specific to a low carb diet.
As for nutrition, I've only been in ketosis for 5 months, but no problems so far. I am not carb free though. I eat a few veggies every day - more that my "normal" eating husband and two of my kids eat. I do take a multivitamin, but I have for years. No change there.
I would like to suggest that people who are googling keto look at a nutritional ketogenic diet rather than the medically ordered, strict ketogenic diet of those with epilepsy. They really are quite different.
The 2 IRL k-e-t-o friends who I discuss this with both have constipation. Both have been doing this diet for over a year and the one even longer. The individual who has been doing it longer also has epilepsy. He follows a modified Atkins method which provides less restriction then the traditional k-e-t-o diet. It provides for up to 35% protein and can be found on the epilepsy site up thread that I linked.
As far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
*edit spell check made k-e-t-o the word kept
Constipation really isn't the norm. I would hazard a guess that your friends are not getting enough sodium or magnesium; if they increased those they might improve. It could be from certain foods that their bodies have issue with such as cheese. If they were able to expriment a bit (difficult on a medical diet) they may be able to resolve it.
I don't think I'm a special snowflake and one of the rare keto'er who does not have constipation. My conversations with other low carbers would negate that too.
...and most keto'ers get more than a cup of veggies per week! Do you really think that is typical? This is why people need to NOT look at epileptic diets. They are not nutritional ketogenic diets.
Yesterday, not an unusual carb day for me even though I "fat fasted" (only coconut oil) until 4:00pm, I had about1/2 cup macadamia nuts, about 1/3 cup green beans, and later on some celery (with my pork rinds) dipped in an artichoke asiago dip. That was pretty much spot on my usual upper limit of carbs - 18g of carbs which worked out to 3 g of sugar.
And that is just me. Many keto'ers, especially those more active than me, eat many more carbs than I do. A few eat less. The few I know who have been eating very few carbs, and basically no sugar, have fine health.rockstarjosh wrote: »This is good entertainment! Hardly a scientific debate, since there is so much mudslinging (or, "facepalming"), but here is a scientific idea: How about you each experiment with your opponent's hypothesis, see what becomes of it, and come back to the table and discuss your results? The main limitation in every human study about nutrition is that no two humans are alike. Some bodies process certain things better, while others do so worse. For instance, my body loves dairy, but give me bread and you better head for the hills to escape my draft.
Just try stuff out, make it work for you, and you will have a pretty good hypothesis about you! :-)
Good day! #NoPityForTheKitty!
why would I run an experiment on myself and torture myself by eating little or no carbs when I already eat carbs and have lost weight, and kept it off?????
Wow. I agree.
I ate that way (basically SAD with a goal towards moderating my intake) for decades. I'm not going back to that. It was a fail for me.PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
To address the two articles with deficiencies found, the first article where the two patients were diagnosed with optic neuropathy, both sets of parents in both case studies admitted that they were not giving the children the prescribed vitamin and mineral supplements. While this does support the claim that the ketogenic diet is lacking in some nutrients, it doesn't provide evidence that people who do keto diets and are obtaining the proper nutrients are at risk.
In the second article, the patient was found to be deficient in selenium, which led to a dilated cardiomyopathy. But later in the article, it states that "Dietary selenium is found in the highest concentrations in meat and seafood," which would be staples of the keto diet. It also states that "Assessment of selenium status is difficult because no optimal method is known. Dietary assessment is inaccurate, and selenium content depends on where the food was grown (soil content), which is usually unknown," which indicates that selenium deficiency is not unique to a keto diet and could occur even in people who eat a diet rich in grains and veggies simply based on location.
It is disappointing that most of the research around keto diets seems to relate to epilepsy as that makes the results difficult to translate to the larger population. Some of the treatments seem to impact nutrient absorption and issues around oral ingestion of foods make it difficult for researchers to get accurate data. That's not to say that a keto diet is not going to have deficiencies, it would just be helpful if the research were more applicable to genpop.
Yeah, another drawback is that most of the research is on children, and most of them are prescribed supplements from the get-go because the diet itself is recognized as being nutrient deficient.
You sort of have to add 2 and 2 here.
Why is the diet inherently nutrient deficient?
Do we have a source anywhere stating which nutrients are deficient on a keto diet following the tenets of the diet? I'm not sure nutrient deficiencies in epileptic kids is the best baseline given the illness and the fact they are still growing, and all I've found from google is concerns about magnesium and recommendations to eat nuts. But that also goes with keto diets which include vegetables, because keto includes vegetables to a degree. I also haven't seen anything on how deficient - are we talking a multivitamin that many people take no matter how they eat, or are we headed into heavy duty supplementation of certain nutrients?
I don't think no carb diet even exists, perhaps @umayster can shed some light on diet planning and supplements for no veggie diets and how that would work.
Every source I posted said the diet itself wasn't providing enough nutrition.
It certainly is lacking in calcium... this is just off the top of my head without coffee and in a rush. Keto proponents don't eat dairy except for small amounts of cream. Calcium supplementation was needed, and I suspect that children wouldn't be the only followers of the diet (women come to mind here) needing calcium.
I doubt the average keto'er in nutritional ketosis (not treating epilepsy) is low in calcium. Green leafy veggies are a favourite among many because of flavor, bulk and low carb content. I would guess we eat cheese pretty regularly, and indulge in many high fat dairy products like whipping cream, cheese, sour cream and plain yogurt. Plus fat is needed for calcium absorption so a LCHF diet could be a benefit.
If a keto'er (or anyone for that matter) does not like foods rich in calcium, take a calcium supplement.
The vegetable comment was in reference to your own diet. You consume, on average, about a cup a week of vegetables. I think very few people on a k-e-t-o diet eat like this, but there are a few.
I thought that was aimed at me but it is largely mistaken. While I do have periods of low veggie consumption, like this past week when I was "fat fasting", one cup of vegetables per week is not my average. I exceeded that yesterday with nuts, green beans and celery.
And when you saidAs far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
...I don't think I measure and weigh foods differently than others. Sort of an odd comment to make so I over looked it. I am pretty aware of how much I eat.
Perhaps you are implying that my veggie intake does not meet the recommended daily serving numbers put out by... whomever? No it definitely doesn't, although it IS higher than a cup per week. I'm happy with that.
Wut? You had about what amounted to 4-5 green beans and 3/4 of a stalk of celery.
That was your vegetable consumption. Nuts aren't vegetable matter.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »
And that amount is a whopping 456 calories. I've seen the diaries of the keto adherents eating at deficit. That's a huge chunk of their daily allowance, and they're not eating it.
We've established that the peer reviewed science shows adequate Calcium etc intake on low carb diets, or no worse than calorie restricted diets. 100g of cheese with 410 cals 25g protein and 34g of fat may or may not be part of someone's diet and provides 93% of the NRV here. 4 ozs of cheese is part of Atkins Phase 1.
You seem to have moved from "where on earth do they get calcium from" to nitpicking the milligrams. Have fun.
If calcium is an issue then supplement for it - like the State administered flour supplementation that bread eaters etc benefit from, or fortified breakfast cereals, or a Snickers bar.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-000118000000000000000-w.html
Well, see, I have no issue with supplementing. What I have issue with is people pretending that there's no need to.
That's why I kept moving the goalposts.
Look, I'm a vegetarian with celiac disease. I take supplements because my diet might be lacking in spite of my best efforts for it to be nutritionally sound. See how easy it is to say that?
Why is it so hard for some of the people in this thread to say the same?
The difference here, though, is that I have a better chance of hitting micronutrient targets because I'm consuming a wider variety of foods than those on even greater restriction than I am.0 -
Dropping processed sugar and regular sugar (I'm assuming that's granulated sugar) caused that calorie deficit - sounds like it had everything to do with it in @IrshRnr56 case!
In @IrshRnr56 example cutting out processed sugar resulted in weight loss. Maybe the people promoting 'reducing sugar',by cutting out added sugar are on to something!
0 -
My mistake then. Nuts seemed to fit better with veggies than with my meat or dairy.PeachyCarol wrote: »_Terrapin_ wrote: »_Terrapin_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Maybe it makes them feel bad? Maybe they like to experiment? Sugar is fun to eat, but no one will suffer ill health without it.
Eating no veggies isn't good for you. Yeah, there are ways to make up the micronutrients (although I suspect they aren't as good), but the vast majority of people who mostly cut out veggies don't actually eat lots of organ meats and the like. (And the traditional Inuit diet, while not keto, doesn't compete with the blue zone diets anyway.)
So claiming eating no veggies is perfectly healthy seems inaccurate.
I think this is more of an opinion than a proven fact.
I do eat veggies. I like them and think they are good for me, but I'm not sure that eating no veggies has been proven harmful for people.
While I agree with this being an opinion, I'm also thinking that no veggies (or fruits) could be harmful in a small sense because....there wouldn't be much quality potty time going on without them! Tons of meat and cheese! Just thinking about the constipation makes me cringe.
Most keto'ers, including me, do not experience constipation. The fats, for me it is largely MCT's (coconut oil), keeps me moving very well. In fact it is almost too well.
Veggies and fibre supplements were a fail for me. I was much much slower before changing to a ketogenic diet.
I'm also of the opinion that fibre is mainly important for helping to move carbohydrates on through. If carbs are lower, then the need for fibre just isn't there.
Granted, too much cheese will slow thngs for many people, but that's not specific to a low carb diet.
As for nutrition, I've only been in ketosis for 5 months, but no problems so far. I am not carb free though. I eat a few veggies every day - more that my "normal" eating husband and two of my kids eat. I do take a multivitamin, but I have for years. No change there.
I would like to suggest that people who are googling keto look at a nutritional ketogenic diet rather than the medically ordered, strict ketogenic diet of those with epilepsy. They really are quite different.
The 2 IRL k-e-t-o friends who I discuss this with both have constipation. Both have been doing this diet for over a year and the one even longer. The individual who has been doing it longer also has epilepsy. He follows a modified Atkins method which provides less restriction then the traditional k-e-t-o diet. It provides for up to 35% protein and can be found on the epilepsy site up thread that I linked.
As far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
*edit spell check made k-e-t-o the word kept
Constipation really isn't the norm. I would hazard a guess that your friends are not getting enough sodium or magnesium; if they increased those they might improve. It could be from certain foods that their bodies have issue with such as cheese. If they were able to expriment a bit (difficult on a medical diet) they may be able to resolve it.
I don't think I'm a special snowflake and one of the rare keto'er who does not have constipation. My conversations with other low carbers would negate that too.
...and most keto'ers get more than a cup of veggies per week! Do you really think that is typical? This is why people need to NOT look at epileptic diets. They are not nutritional ketogenic diets.
Yesterday, not an unusual carb day for me even though I "fat fasted" (only coconut oil) until 4:00pm, I had about1/2 cup macadamia nuts, about 1/3 cup green beans, and later on some celery (with my pork rinds) dipped in an artichoke asiago dip. That was pretty much spot on my usual upper limit of carbs - 18g of carbs which worked out to 3 g of sugar.
And that is just me. Many keto'ers, especially those more active than me, eat many more carbs than I do. A few eat less. The few I know who have been eating very few carbs, and basically no sugar, have fine health.rockstarjosh wrote: »This is good entertainment! Hardly a scientific debate, since there is so much mudslinging (or, "facepalming"), but here is a scientific idea: How about you each experiment with your opponent's hypothesis, see what becomes of it, and come back to the table and discuss your results? The main limitation in every human study about nutrition is that no two humans are alike. Some bodies process certain things better, while others do so worse. For instance, my body loves dairy, but give me bread and you better head for the hills to escape my draft.
Just try stuff out, make it work for you, and you will have a pretty good hypothesis about you! :-)
Good day! #NoPityForTheKitty!
why would I run an experiment on myself and torture myself by eating little or no carbs when I already eat carbs and have lost weight, and kept it off?????
Wow. I agree.
I ate that way (basically SAD with a goal towards moderating my intake) for decades. I'm not going back to that. It was a fail for me.PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
To address the two articles with deficiencies found, the first article where the two patients were diagnosed with optic neuropathy, both sets of parents in both case studies admitted that they were not giving the children the prescribed vitamin and mineral supplements. While this does support the claim that the ketogenic diet is lacking in some nutrients, it doesn't provide evidence that people who do keto diets and are obtaining the proper nutrients are at risk.
In the second article, the patient was found to be deficient in selenium, which led to a dilated cardiomyopathy. But later in the article, it states that "Dietary selenium is found in the highest concentrations in meat and seafood," which would be staples of the keto diet. It also states that "Assessment of selenium status is difficult because no optimal method is known. Dietary assessment is inaccurate, and selenium content depends on where the food was grown (soil content), which is usually unknown," which indicates that selenium deficiency is not unique to a keto diet and could occur even in people who eat a diet rich in grains and veggies simply based on location.
It is disappointing that most of the research around keto diets seems to relate to epilepsy as that makes the results difficult to translate to the larger population. Some of the treatments seem to impact nutrient absorption and issues around oral ingestion of foods make it difficult for researchers to get accurate data. That's not to say that a keto diet is not going to have deficiencies, it would just be helpful if the research were more applicable to genpop.
Yeah, another drawback is that most of the research is on children, and most of them are prescribed supplements from the get-go because the diet itself is recognized as being nutrient deficient.
You sort of have to add 2 and 2 here.
Why is the diet inherently nutrient deficient?
Do we have a source anywhere stating which nutrients are deficient on a keto diet following the tenets of the diet? I'm not sure nutrient deficiencies in epileptic kids is the best baseline given the illness and the fact they are still growing, and all I've found from google is concerns about magnesium and recommendations to eat nuts. But that also goes with keto diets which include vegetables, because keto includes vegetables to a degree. I also haven't seen anything on how deficient - are we talking a multivitamin that many people take no matter how they eat, or are we headed into heavy duty supplementation of certain nutrients?
I don't think no carb diet even exists, perhaps @umayster can shed some light on diet planning and supplements for no veggie diets and how that would work.
Every source I posted said the diet itself wasn't providing enough nutrition.
It certainly is lacking in calcium... this is just off the top of my head without coffee and in a rush. Keto proponents don't eat dairy except for small amounts of cream. Calcium supplementation was needed, and I suspect that children wouldn't be the only followers of the diet (women come to mind here) needing calcium.
I doubt the average keto'er in nutritional ketosis (not treating epilepsy) is low in calcium. Green leafy veggies are a favourite among many because of flavor, bulk and low carb content. I would guess we eat cheese pretty regularly, and indulge in many high fat dairy products like whipping cream, cheese, sour cream and plain yogurt. Plus fat is needed for calcium absorption so a LCHF diet could be a benefit.
If a keto'er (or anyone for that matter) does not like foods rich in calcium, take a calcium supplement.
The vegetable comment was in reference to your own diet. You consume, on average, about a cup a week of vegetables. I think very few people on a k-e-t-o diet eat like this, but there are a few.
I thought that was aimed at me but it is largely mistaken. While I do have periods of low veggie consumption, like this past week when I was "fat fasting", one cup of vegetables per week is not my average. I exceeded that yesterday with nuts, green beans and celery.
And when you saidAs far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
...I don't think I measure and weigh foods differently than others. Sort of an odd comment to make so I over looked it. I am pretty aware of how much I eat.
Perhaps you are implying that my veggie intake does not meet the recommended daily serving numbers put out by... whomever? No it definitely doesn't, although it IS higher than a cup per week. I'm happy with that.
Wut? You had about what amounted to 4-5 green beans and 3/4 of a stalk of celery.
That was your vegetable consumption. Nuts aren't vegetable matter.
Wow. So much splitting of hairs. Semantics. Judgements. Such a pleasure to come here for someone who chooses to eat differently for medical reasons.
I take close to a dozen supplements and see an orthomolecular doctor (out of pocket) because I am still healing from celiac. I find it offensive that you assume I am not mindful of my micros just because I don't eat the level of fruit and vegetables that you find personally acceptable.
No one has proven poor health WILL result of a zero carb (or close as one can get) diet. Yes a badly planned diet will have deficiencies. This is true of SAD, "moderation", vegetarianism, and all diets.
It is common for people starting LCHF to get low in Mg, Na, and K. I tell people to supplement with that until their bodies get used to that woe. What more do you people want? This is just getting goofy...0 -
Quote from an interesting book: "No matter what kind of diet you're on--from vegan to Atkins--you can probably benefit from eating more vegetables then you already do. The entire vegetable kingdom is loaded with natural anti-inflammatories, antioxidants, and other plant compounds, such as flavonoids, that are good for your heart". Huh?!? It seems physicians believe their is a correlation to improved health and vegetables. Who-d-a thunk it.0
-
tennisdude2004 wrote: »
Dropping processed sugar and regular sugar (I'm assuming that's granulated sugar) caused that calorie deficit - sounds like it had everything to do with it in @IrshRnr56 case!
In @IrshRnr56 example cutting out processed sugar resulted in weight loss. Maybe the people promoting 'reducing sugar',by cutting out added sugar are on to something!
yea, no.
0 -
Having finally just got a good blood test result after a year of folate-deficiency anaemia, you can take my leafy green veg out of my cold, dead hands.0
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