Could you spend a day without any sugar?
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WinoGelato wrote: »Seriously, are we really advocating that fruits and veggies are not necessary for a healthy diet? And we are leaving that out there for the random lurkers on MFP to see, the ones who aren't doing a ketogenic diet with strict controls on what they are choosing to eat, people who aren't supplementing their micronutrients with other sources, as well as the people eating a SAD who are now going to interpret that that "no, you don't need to eat fruits and vegetables, lots of people on MFP said they aren't necessary for a healthy diet.".
Every time the moderation vs elimination debate comes up people get bashed if they don't qualify a statement of "eat whatever you like in moderation" with "focusing primarily on nutrient dense foods". So I find leaving the statement of "fruits and vegetables aren't necessary for a healthy diet" to be extremely unhelpful and potentially dangerous without providing all of the various caveats that one would need to follow in order to take that zero fruit and vegetable diet to the healthy level again...
that would appear to be the case...and apparently studies are now required to illustrate why they would be necessary...because obviously gen pop, the average MFP user, etc is so well versed in nutrition as to be able to get their nutrients elsewhere thus making veggies and whatnot irrelevant to basic nutrition.
i guess common sense really isn't too common....
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For as long as I have been on MFP, and as many semantics debates over silly choices of words as I've seen, I have NEVER seen something as concerning as saying that one has to prove that fruits and vegetables are a necessity to a healthy diet otherwise it comes down to a matter of personal preference.
I truly feel that the entire concept of common sense healthy eating has been thrown out the window in order to win an argument about semantics and to take extreme positions that are not helpful for the vast majority of the MFP community who is just trying to improve their overall health.
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On the flip side, the 100% donut diet is apparently viable, requiring only the right supplements.WinoGelato wrote: »For as long as I have been on MFP, and as many semantics debates over silly choices of words as I've seen, I have NEVER seen something as concerning as saying that one has to prove that fruits and vegetables are a necessity to a healthy diet otherwise it comes down to a matter of personal preference.
I truly feel that the entire concept of common sense healthy eating has been thrown out the window in order to win an argument about semantics and to take extreme positions that are not helpful for the vast majority of the MFP community who is just trying to improve their overall health.
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ABSOLUTELY! I just wouldn't recommend getting anywhere near me for about 24 hrs!0
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
On the flip side, the 100% donut diet is apparently viable, requiring only the right supplements.WinoGelato wrote: »For as long as I have been on MFP, and as many semantics debates over silly choices of words as I've seen, I have NEVER seen something as concerning as saying that one has to prove that fruits and vegetables are a necessity to a healthy diet otherwise it comes down to a matter of personal preference.
I truly feel that the entire concept of common sense healthy eating has been thrown out the window in order to win an argument about semantics and to take extreme positions that are not helpful for the vast majority of the MFP community who is just trying to improve their overall health.
And, of course, this 100% doughnut diet is advocated for on nearly a daily basis.
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I would die. My life would stop and I would fall dead. No sugar? NO thanks.0
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Something I could do is eat all the sugar in one day, though. I could totally pull off a fruit-filled day!0
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Fruits and vegetables are healthful. Some are better than none -- that's common sense and the wisdom of generations. But the new focus and insistence you need this many servings every day, this many colors, more is better recommendations are not based on good science, in my opinion.0
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i honestly can not believe what I just read...0
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Cutting out 'all' sugar seems silly.....even persons with diabetes don't do that.
Could I cut out all added/superfluous sugar? Absolutely...and pretty much have except for occasional treats.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Seriously, are we really advocating that fruits and veggies are not necessary for a healthy diet? And we are leaving that out there for the random lurkers on MFP to see, the ones who aren't doing a ketogenic diet with strict controls on what they are choosing to eat, people who aren't supplementing their micronutrients with other sources, as well as the people eating a SAD who are now going to interpret that that "no, you don't need to eat fruits and vegetables, lots of people on MFP said they aren't necessary for a healthy diet.".
Every time the moderation vs elimination debate comes up people get bashed if they don't qualify a statement of "eat whatever you like in moderation" with "focusing primarily on nutrient dense foods". So I find leaving the statement of "fruits and vegetables aren't necessary for a healthy diet" to be extremely unhelpful and potentially dangerous without providing all of the various caveats that one would need to follow in order to take that zero fruit and vegetable diet to the healthy level again...
^This. At the very least, these "other sources" should be noted, and their intake emphasized.
I'd like to know if the anecdotal healthy people without deficiencies not eating fruits and veggies are also not consuming fortified grains?0 -
juggernaut1974 wrote: »
I gotta log off for a bit and take it all in...lol. "Hello bottom, have you met rock?"
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WinoGelato wrote: »Seriously, are we really advocating that fruits and veggies are not necessary for a healthy diet? And we are leaving that out there for the random lurkers on MFP to see, the ones who aren't doing a ketogenic diet with strict controls on what they are choosing to eat, people who aren't supplementing their micronutrients with other sources, as well as the people eating a SAD who are now going to interpret that that "no, you don't need to eat fruits and vegetables, lots of people on MFP said they aren't necessary for a healthy diet.".
Every time the moderation vs elimination debate comes up people get bashed if they don't qualify a statement of "eat whatever you like in moderation" with "focusing primarily on nutrient dense foods". So I find leaving the statement of "fruits and vegetables aren't necessary for a healthy diet" to be extremely unhelpful and potentially dangerous without providing all of the various caveats that one would need to follow in order to take that zero fruit and vegetable diet to the healthy level again...
No, what people in this thread said is that sugar is not necessary, which got turned into "but you need fruits and veggies, which have sugar, because nutrients." To which the original person making the comment clearly stated that those nutrients can be obtained from other sources. Since this thread is very clearly about no sugar or keto-style diets and the arguments have been about "low carb zealots" and "dogma," I'm not sure how someone is going to be confusing the subject here with the SAD or any other kind of eating style.
It's really no different than discussions about vegetarian or vegan diets - animal products contain lots of macros and nutrients that our bodies need, but eliminating those products does not mean that a person will necessarily be unhealthy or that they cannot still have a healthy diet, they just have to make sure to arrange their diet in a way that allows them to hit their nutrient needs. Which is the same thing people here are saying in terms of fruit/veggie consumption. No one is telling people not to eat veggies, or that eating veggies is a bad idea, they are merely pointing out that the science doesn't support the claim that they have to be included and that eating styles like keto or low/no sugar are going to automatically result in deficiencies or health issues due to the nature of the diet. Can diets without veggies be unhealthy? Sure, just like vegetarian or vegan diets (completely plant-based) can also be unhealthy if not planned correctly.0 -
DeguelloTex wrote: »
On the flip side, the 100% donut diet is apparently viable, requiring only the right supplements.WinoGelato wrote: »For as long as I have been on MFP, and as many semantics debates over silly choices of words as I've seen, I have NEVER seen something as concerning as saying that one has to prove that fruits and vegetables are a necessity to a healthy diet otherwise it comes down to a matter of personal preference.
I truly feel that the entire concept of common sense healthy eating has been thrown out the window in order to win an argument about semantics and to take extreme positions that are not helpful for the vast majority of the MFP community who is just trying to improve their overall health.
You'd be getting plenty of nutrition. The flour used to make the donuts if fortified with plenty of vitamins.
I want to know where the people not eating fruits, veggies, or grains are getting their nutrition from if they're not eating organ meats?
Let's leave phytonutrients out of this just for fun.0 -
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juggernaut1974 wrote: »
I gotta log off for a bit and take it all in...lol. "Hello bottom, have you met rock?"
I am feeling much the same today. I feel like whereever I look, common sense is being completely abdicated in favor of just winning points in an argument.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »DeguelloTex wrote: »
On the flip side, the 100% donut diet is apparently viable, requiring only the right supplements.WinoGelato wrote: »For as long as I have been on MFP, and as many semantics debates over silly choices of words as I've seen, I have NEVER seen something as concerning as saying that one has to prove that fruits and vegetables are a necessity to a healthy diet otherwise it comes down to a matter of personal preference.
I truly feel that the entire concept of common sense healthy eating has been thrown out the window in order to win an argument about semantics and to take extreme positions that are not helpful for the vast majority of the MFP community who is just trying to improve their overall health.
You'd be getting plenty of nutrition. The flour used to make the donuts if fortified with plenty of vitamins.
I want to know where the people not eating fruits, veggies, or grains are getting their nutrition from if they're not eating organ meats?
Let's leave phytonutrients out of this just for fun.
Is there such a thing as vitamin-fortified bacon?0 -
catscats222 wrote: »Veggies have sugar, even dairy.
This person stated cutting out sugar completely (not cutting back).
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10284310/the-deal-on-sugar/p1
I have never heard of anyone completely cutting out sugar
Can it be done? Even for a day?
Tell me your experience going 100% without a drop of sugar for a day or longer.
Note: I am at around 50 grams of sugar a day
Of course it can be done for one day.
Fast for the day - 100% sugar free.0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »<snip>there wouldn't be much quality potty time going on without them! Tons of meat and cheese! Just thinking about the constipation makes me cringe.
One of the advantages of low carb is fewer BMs. They still happen and with no problem, they just don't happen as often. Constipation usually means dehydration, which applies to regular diets too.
By the by, most low carb people do eat veggies. It's the higher carb ones that are avoided or at least rationed. Low carb doesn't always mean zero veggies. It can, but it doesn't have to. Hubby is in keto. For lunch, he's eating 350g of chicken meat, 125g of mushrooms, and 320g of veggies. He ate veggies for breakfast and he'll have them for dinner too.
there have already been comments here about how they are really not necessary nor have they proven to have any health benefits, etc...this kind of dogma goes on a lot around here it seems...
Those comments were made in response to someone else saying that eating no veggies wouldn't be good for you, which was made in response to someone else stating that no one will suffer ill health without sugar (not veggies). Does anyone know of a study showing that people who do not consume fruits and/or veggies experience adverse health effects, even in cases where the person is able to get the nutrients from an alternative source?
really? i'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that most people who aren't eating their veg and fruit are pretty deficient nutrient wise and would thus suffer adverse consequences. the vast majority of the population doesn't know jack about actual nutrition nor do most new users to MFP...so i think suggesting that vegetables and whatnot aren't necessary to a healthy diet is somewhat disturbing....but hey...that's just me...carry on.
If you're claiming that what someone said is wrong and that people are going to suffer adverse consequences even in cases where they are getting those same nutrients from other sources, I'd like to see a study backing up that claim. Anecdotally, I know several people who do not include fruits and veggies as a staple in their diets and who have no adverse health issues or are nutrient-deficient, so I'm interested to see the research supporting your claim that these are necessary for a healthy diet.
yea, that poster clearly said if they were not getting their nutrients there would be adverse health affects. He never made reference to alternate sources...so not really sure where you are going with this.
The people being accused of low carb/keto dogma have very clearly stated in this thread that veggies are not necessary and the nutrients can be obtained from other sources, so I'm left wondering where others who are stating people will be nutrient deficient without veggies are going with their statements. It's right here:lemurcat12 wrote: »
Maybe it makes them feel bad? Maybe they like to experiment? Sugar is fun to eat, but no one will suffer ill health without it.
Eating no veggies isn't good for you. Yeah, there are ways to make up the micronutrients (although I suspect they aren't as good), but the vast majority of people who mostly cut out veggies don't actually eat lots of organ meats and the like. (And the traditional Inuit diet, while not keto, doesn't compete with the blue zone diets anyway.)
So claiming eating no veggies is perfectly healthy seems inaccurate.
EVERY nutrient in vegetables is available elsewhere, vegetables are not the only easy source of life sustaining nutrients. Eating no veggies is not bad for you, you just need to increase familiarity of nutrient content of other food sources to make it easy and healthy.
It seems like the veggie argument goalpost is being moved all over the place in this discussion. The low carb people are saying that sugar, including the sugar in fruit or veggies, is not necessary for good health because the body can produce its own. No one is saying the nutrients are unnecessary, they are just stating that they can be obtained from other sources.
Unless someone has a study that can prove that fruits and veggies are absolutely necessary to a healthy diet and that people who do not eat fruits and veggies, even if obtaining nutrients from alternative sources, will suffer adverse health effects, then it seems this discussion is more about people's personal food preferences than the necessity of certain foods being included in a diet based on science.
Well given this:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01635589209514201
Says fruits and vegetable consumption, particularly fruit, reduces cancer risk, and other studies have shown no reduction in cancer from supplements (study I heard mentioned by Harvard nutrition, so I don't have it handy), I'd say there is something in fruit but not in supplements that has cancer preventative properties. Does increased risk of cancer qualify as adverse health effects?
Eating more fruit & vegetables causes less cancer? No.
Some people who eat more fruits and vegetables also have fewer cancers. Yes.
Eating more fruits & vegetables will lower your personal risk of cancer. No.
This study does not mean I can actually affect my own health by chosing to eat more fruits and vegetables. It means the study found something in common between people who get less cancer and people who eat more fruits and vegetables.
Maybe not having cancer causes people to eat more fruits and vegetables?
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