Could you spend a day without any sugar?
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I doubt that loss of highs and lows was a placebo effect.
funny, I never have highs and lows when I eat a candy bar….0 -
gotta love how a "no sugar day" thread turns into a debate about keto and the benefit of not eating vegetables….never change MFP, never change….0
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I'm interested @umayster you are clearly a long term committed keto dieter
So may I ask, when did you start keto, how much weight have you lost, are you at goal? If not how much more weight till goal? Will you remain keto for life? Do you do any endurance form of exercise, what's your fitness level? Does your diet support your fitness goals?
Committed, but not long-term yet. I've been under 50gr (ketogenic levels) for 6 months and low carb for the year before while relearning how to eat without much carb content. Now that I've figured out how to eliminate the overwhelming hunger and post meal coma that higher carb levels induce in me, there is no going back to that daily crap feeling. I feel so much better.
I've lost almost 30 and am 4 lbs from original goal. Sedentary now, but adding back more sports activity and manual work - I don't do 'exercise' in the gym sense and have been able to maintain a reasonable fitness level for my needs.
I haven't found long term keto-ers talking about the diet unless they sense sincere interest and openness to learning. If someone has no problems with carb intake, talking about the ketogenic diet usually is not very productive and provokes the same (disbelief and mocking) conversation over and over. I only jump in when people who have some kinda hunch they should experiment with their carb intake levels are being actively shut down.0 -
I doubt that loss of highs and lows was a placebo effect.
funny, I never have highs and lows when I eat a candy bar….
Never had any even when I regularly ate whole bags of hardcandy (basically 200g pure sugar) in a day.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »
And that amount is a whopping 456 calories. I've seen the diaries of the keto adherents eating at deficit. That's a huge chunk of their daily allowance, and they're not eating it.PeachyCarol wrote: »
And that amount is a whopping 456 calories. I've seen the diaries of the keto adherents eating at deficit. That's a huge chunk of their daily allowance, and they're not eating it.
I may not be typical keto-er or a good target for low calcium evaluation, yesterday I had over 700 cal of cheese and I don't even pay attention to calcium as dairy has always been core in my diet. Your questions prompted me to look at it though!0 -
My mistake then. Nuts seemed to fit better with veggies than with my meat or dairy.PeachyCarol wrote: »_Terrapin_ wrote: »_Terrapin_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Maybe it makes them feel bad? Maybe they like to experiment? Sugar is fun to eat, but no one will suffer ill health without it.
Eating no veggies isn't good for you. Yeah, there are ways to make up the micronutrients (although I suspect they aren't as good), but the vast majority of people who mostly cut out veggies don't actually eat lots of organ meats and the like. (And the traditional Inuit diet, while not keto, doesn't compete with the blue zone diets anyway.)
So claiming eating no veggies is perfectly healthy seems inaccurate.
I think this is more of an opinion than a proven fact.
I do eat veggies. I like them and think they are good for me, but I'm not sure that eating no veggies has been proven harmful for people.
While I agree with this being an opinion, I'm also thinking that no veggies (or fruits) could be harmful in a small sense because....there wouldn't be much quality potty time going on without them! Tons of meat and cheese! Just thinking about the constipation makes me cringe.
Most keto'ers, including me, do not experience constipation. The fats, for me it is largely MCT's (coconut oil), keeps me moving very well. In fact it is almost too well.
Veggies and fibre supplements were a fail for me. I was much much slower before changing to a ketogenic diet.
I'm also of the opinion that fibre is mainly important for helping to move carbohydrates on through. If carbs are lower, then the need for fibre just isn't there.
Granted, too much cheese will slow thngs for many people, but that's not specific to a low carb diet.
As for nutrition, I've only been in ketosis for 5 months, but no problems so far. I am not carb free though. I eat a few veggies every day - more that my "normal" eating husband and two of my kids eat. I do take a multivitamin, but I have for years. No change there.
I would like to suggest that people who are googling keto look at a nutritional ketogenic diet rather than the medically ordered, strict ketogenic diet of those with epilepsy. They really are quite different.
The 2 IRL k-e-t-o friends who I discuss this with both have constipation. Both have been doing this diet for over a year and the one even longer. The individual who has been doing it longer also has epilepsy. He follows a modified Atkins method which provides less restriction then the traditional k-e-t-o diet. It provides for up to 35% protein and can be found on the epilepsy site up thread that I linked.
As far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
*edit spell check made k-e-t-o the word kept
Constipation really isn't the norm. I would hazard a guess that your friends are not getting enough sodium or magnesium; if they increased those they might improve. It could be from certain foods that their bodies have issue with such as cheese. If they were able to expriment a bit (difficult on a medical diet) they may be able to resolve it.
I don't think I'm a special snowflake and one of the rare keto'er who does not have constipation. My conversations with other low carbers would negate that too.
...and most keto'ers get more than a cup of veggies per week! Do you really think that is typical? This is why people need to NOT look at epileptic diets. They are not nutritional ketogenic diets.
Yesterday, not an unusual carb day for me even though I "fat fasted" (only coconut oil) until 4:00pm, I had about1/2 cup macadamia nuts, about 1/3 cup green beans, and later on some celery (with my pork rinds) dipped in an artichoke asiago dip. That was pretty much spot on my usual upper limit of carbs - 18g of carbs which worked out to 3 g of sugar.
And that is just me. Many keto'ers, especially those more active than me, eat many more carbs than I do. A few eat less. The few I know who have been eating very few carbs, and basically no sugar, have fine health.rockstarjosh wrote: »This is good entertainment! Hardly a scientific debate, since there is so much mudslinging (or, "facepalming"), but here is a scientific idea: How about you each experiment with your opponent's hypothesis, see what becomes of it, and come back to the table and discuss your results? The main limitation in every human study about nutrition is that no two humans are alike. Some bodies process certain things better, while others do so worse. For instance, my body loves dairy, but give me bread and you better head for the hills to escape my draft.
Just try stuff out, make it work for you, and you will have a pretty good hypothesis about you! :-)
Good day! #NoPityForTheKitty!
why would I run an experiment on myself and torture myself by eating little or no carbs when I already eat carbs and have lost weight, and kept it off?????
Wow. I agree.
I ate that way (basically SAD with a goal towards moderating my intake) for decades. I'm not going back to that. It was a fail for me.PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
To address the two articles with deficiencies found, the first article where the two patients were diagnosed with optic neuropathy, both sets of parents in both case studies admitted that they were not giving the children the prescribed vitamin and mineral supplements. While this does support the claim that the ketogenic diet is lacking in some nutrients, it doesn't provide evidence that people who do keto diets and are obtaining the proper nutrients are at risk.
In the second article, the patient was found to be deficient in selenium, which led to a dilated cardiomyopathy. But later in the article, it states that "Dietary selenium is found in the highest concentrations in meat and seafood," which would be staples of the keto diet. It also states that "Assessment of selenium status is difficult because no optimal method is known. Dietary assessment is inaccurate, and selenium content depends on where the food was grown (soil content), which is usually unknown," which indicates that selenium deficiency is not unique to a keto diet and could occur even in people who eat a diet rich in grains and veggies simply based on location.
It is disappointing that most of the research around keto diets seems to relate to epilepsy as that makes the results difficult to translate to the larger population. Some of the treatments seem to impact nutrient absorption and issues around oral ingestion of foods make it difficult for researchers to get accurate data. That's not to say that a keto diet is not going to have deficiencies, it would just be helpful if the research were more applicable to genpop.
Yeah, another drawback is that most of the research is on children, and most of them are prescribed supplements from the get-go because the diet itself is recognized as being nutrient deficient.
You sort of have to add 2 and 2 here.
Why is the diet inherently nutrient deficient?
Do we have a source anywhere stating which nutrients are deficient on a keto diet following the tenets of the diet? I'm not sure nutrient deficiencies in epileptic kids is the best baseline given the illness and the fact they are still growing, and all I've found from google is concerns about magnesium and recommendations to eat nuts. But that also goes with keto diets which include vegetables, because keto includes vegetables to a degree. I also haven't seen anything on how deficient - are we talking a multivitamin that many people take no matter how they eat, or are we headed into heavy duty supplementation of certain nutrients?
I don't think no carb diet even exists, perhaps @umayster can shed some light on diet planning and supplements for no veggie diets and how that would work.
Every source I posted said the diet itself wasn't providing enough nutrition.
It certainly is lacking in calcium... this is just off the top of my head without coffee and in a rush. Keto proponents don't eat dairy except for small amounts of cream. Calcium supplementation was needed, and I suspect that children wouldn't be the only followers of the diet (women come to mind here) needing calcium.
I doubt the average keto'er in nutritional ketosis (not treating epilepsy) is low in calcium. Green leafy veggies are a favourite among many because of flavor, bulk and low carb content. I would guess we eat cheese pretty regularly, and indulge in many high fat dairy products like whipping cream, cheese, sour cream and plain yogurt. Plus fat is needed for calcium absorption so a LCHF diet could be a benefit.
If a keto'er (or anyone for that matter) does not like foods rich in calcium, take a calcium supplement.
The vegetable comment was in reference to your own diet. You consume, on average, about a cup a week of vegetables. I think very few people on a k-e-t-o diet eat like this, but there are a few.
I thought that was aimed at me but it is largely mistaken. While I do have periods of low veggie consumption, like this past week when I was "fat fasting", one cup of vegetables per week is not my average. I exceeded that yesterday with nuts, green beans and celery.
And when you saidAs far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
...I don't think I measure and weigh foods differently than others. Sort of an odd comment to make so I over looked it. I am pretty aware of how much I eat.
Perhaps you are implying that my veggie intake does not meet the recommended daily serving numbers put out by... whomever? No it definitely doesn't, although it IS higher than a cup per week. I'm happy with that.
Wut? You had about what amounted to 4-5 green beans and 3/4 of a stalk of celery.
That was your vegetable consumption. Nuts aren't vegetable matter.
Wow. So much splitting of hairs. Semantics. Judgements. Such a pleasure to come here for someone who chooses to eat differently for medical reasons.
I take close to a dozen supplements and see an orthomolecular doctor (out of pocket) because I am still healing from celiac. I find it offensive that you assume I am not mindful of my micros just because I don't eat the level of fruit and vegetables that you find personally acceptable.
No one has proven poor health WILL result of a zero carb (or close as one can get) diet. Yes a badly planned diet will have deficiencies. This is true of SAD, "moderation", vegetarianism, and all diets.
It is common for people starting LCHF to get low in Mg, Na, and K. I tell people to supplement with that until their bodies get used to that woe. What more do you people want? This is just getting goofy...
I assume nothing. You and umayster are asserting that the diet itself is adequate enough on its own merits.
I'm glad you're supplementing, which is all I was getting to in the first place. Your diet eliminates foods and food groups which provide essential nutrients. It's necessary for those following it to supplement for insurance.
Thus, while it's a choice that can be beneficial for some, for some reasons, keto can clearly not be seen to be an optimal diet, by any means, since by default, it's lacking in full nutrition.0 -
Fish is another keto-appropriate calcium source, 'cos of the small bones.
there's some in beef too - http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3689/2 - it all adds up.
I'm trying to find nutrients in home made bone broth as non commercial broths are supposed to have calcium, but haven't found anything that seems reliable yet.0 -
I doubt that loss of highs and lows was a placebo effect.
funny, I never have highs and lows when I eat a candy bar….stevencloser wrote: »
I doubt that loss of highs and lows was a placebo effect.
funny, I never have highs and lows when I eat a candy bar….
Never had any even when I regularly ate whole bags of hardcandy (basically 200g pure sugar) in a day.
You're lucky. I did and have since my teen years. If I had a candy and did not eat again within a couple of hours I was shaking and tired. Since buying a glucometre I now know that it is blood glucose highs and lows. When you drop from a 9 down to a 3.2 (~ 160 to 58) over an hour, it doesn't feel very good.
I don't buy into the hyperactivity theory of sugar consumption, but I do know that energy highs and lows exist because of changing blood glucose levels.0 -
I doubt that loss of highs and lows was a placebo effect.
Actually, I would say it mostly is. Studies have been done repeatedly and every well designed one that actually has double blinded properly finds that sugar doesn't cause any hyperactivity (highs if you will).
I have a crazy theory to explain that..
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I mean with the exception of "hidden" sugar I'm pretty good at avoiding sweets0
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I haven't found long term keto-ers talking about the diet unless they sense sincere interest and openness to learning. If someone has no problems with carb intake, talking about the ketogenic diet usually is not very productive and provokes the same (disbelief and mocking) conversation over and over. I only jump in when people who have some kinda hunch they should experiment with their carb intake levels are being actively shut down.
Different perspective here, I and many others here aren't full of either disbelief or mocking - I just know it isn't for me or my lifestyle. But it doesn't mean I am either ignorant or derisive of your own choices.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »My mistake then. Nuts seemed to fit better with veggies than with my meat or dairy.PeachyCarol wrote: »_Terrapin_ wrote: »_Terrapin_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Maybe it makes them feel bad? Maybe they like to experiment? Sugar is fun to eat, but no one will suffer ill health without it.
Eating no veggies isn't good for you. Yeah, there are ways to make up the micronutrients (although I suspect they aren't as good), but the vast majority of people who mostly cut out veggies don't actually eat lots of organ meats and the like. (And the traditional Inuit diet, while not keto, doesn't compete with the blue zone diets anyway.)
So claiming eating no veggies is perfectly healthy seems inaccurate.
I think this is more of an opinion than a proven fact.
I do eat veggies. I like them and think they are good for me, but I'm not sure that eating no veggies has been proven harmful for people.
While I agree with this being an opinion, I'm also thinking that no veggies (or fruits) could be harmful in a small sense because....there wouldn't be much quality potty time going on without them! Tons of meat and cheese! Just thinking about the constipation makes me cringe.
Most keto'ers, including me, do not experience constipation. The fats, for me it is largely MCT's (coconut oil), keeps me moving very well. In fact it is almost too well.
Veggies and fibre supplements were a fail for me. I was much much slower before changing to a ketogenic diet.
I'm also of the opinion that fibre is mainly important for helping to move carbohydrates on through. If carbs are lower, then the need for fibre just isn't there.
Granted, too much cheese will slow thngs for many people, but that's not specific to a low carb diet.
As for nutrition, I've only been in ketosis for 5 months, but no problems so far. I am not carb free though. I eat a few veggies every day - more that my "normal" eating husband and two of my kids eat. I do take a multivitamin, but I have for years. No change there.
I would like to suggest that people who are googling keto look at a nutritional ketogenic diet rather than the medically ordered, strict ketogenic diet of those with epilepsy. They really are quite different.
The 2 IRL k-e-t-o friends who I discuss this with both have constipation. Both have been doing this diet for over a year and the one even longer. The individual who has been doing it longer also has epilepsy. He follows a modified Atkins method which provides less restriction then the traditional k-e-t-o diet. It provides for up to 35% protein and can be found on the epilepsy site up thread that I linked.
As far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
*edit spell check made k-e-t-o the word kept
Constipation really isn't the norm. I would hazard a guess that your friends are not getting enough sodium or magnesium; if they increased those they might improve. It could be from certain foods that their bodies have issue with such as cheese. If they were able to expriment a bit (difficult on a medical diet) they may be able to resolve it.
I don't think I'm a special snowflake and one of the rare keto'er who does not have constipation. My conversations with other low carbers would negate that too.
...and most keto'ers get more than a cup of veggies per week! Do you really think that is typical? This is why people need to NOT look at epileptic diets. They are not nutritional ketogenic diets.
Yesterday, not an unusual carb day for me even though I "fat fasted" (only coconut oil) until 4:00pm, I had about1/2 cup macadamia nuts, about 1/3 cup green beans, and later on some celery (with my pork rinds) dipped in an artichoke asiago dip. That was pretty much spot on my usual upper limit of carbs - 18g of carbs which worked out to 3 g of sugar.
And that is just me. Many keto'ers, especially those more active than me, eat many more carbs than I do. A few eat less. The few I know who have been eating very few carbs, and basically no sugar, have fine health.rockstarjosh wrote: »This is good entertainment! Hardly a scientific debate, since there is so much mudslinging (or, "facepalming"), but here is a scientific idea: How about you each experiment with your opponent's hypothesis, see what becomes of it, and come back to the table and discuss your results? The main limitation in every human study about nutrition is that no two humans are alike. Some bodies process certain things better, while others do so worse. For instance, my body loves dairy, but give me bread and you better head for the hills to escape my draft.
Just try stuff out, make it work for you, and you will have a pretty good hypothesis about you! :-)
Good day! #NoPityForTheKitty!
why would I run an experiment on myself and torture myself by eating little or no carbs when I already eat carbs and have lost weight, and kept it off?????
Wow. I agree.
I ate that way (basically SAD with a goal towards moderating my intake) for decades. I'm not going back to that. It was a fail for me.PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
To address the two articles with deficiencies found, the first article where the two patients were diagnosed with optic neuropathy, both sets of parents in both case studies admitted that they were not giving the children the prescribed vitamin and mineral supplements. While this does support the claim that the ketogenic diet is lacking in some nutrients, it doesn't provide evidence that people who do keto diets and are obtaining the proper nutrients are at risk.
In the second article, the patient was found to be deficient in selenium, which led to a dilated cardiomyopathy. But later in the article, it states that "Dietary selenium is found in the highest concentrations in meat and seafood," which would be staples of the keto diet. It also states that "Assessment of selenium status is difficult because no optimal method is known. Dietary assessment is inaccurate, and selenium content depends on where the food was grown (soil content), which is usually unknown," which indicates that selenium deficiency is not unique to a keto diet and could occur even in people who eat a diet rich in grains and veggies simply based on location.
It is disappointing that most of the research around keto diets seems to relate to epilepsy as that makes the results difficult to translate to the larger population. Some of the treatments seem to impact nutrient absorption and issues around oral ingestion of foods make it difficult for researchers to get accurate data. That's not to say that a keto diet is not going to have deficiencies, it would just be helpful if the research were more applicable to genpop.
Yeah, another drawback is that most of the research is on children, and most of them are prescribed supplements from the get-go because the diet itself is recognized as being nutrient deficient.
You sort of have to add 2 and 2 here.
Why is the diet inherently nutrient deficient?
Do we have a source anywhere stating which nutrients are deficient on a keto diet following the tenets of the diet? I'm not sure nutrient deficiencies in epileptic kids is the best baseline given the illness and the fact they are still growing, and all I've found from google is concerns about magnesium and recommendations to eat nuts. But that also goes with keto diets which include vegetables, because keto includes vegetables to a degree. I also haven't seen anything on how deficient - are we talking a multivitamin that many people take no matter how they eat, or are we headed into heavy duty supplementation of certain nutrients?
I don't think no carb diet even exists, perhaps @umayster can shed some light on diet planning and supplements for no veggie diets and how that would work.
Every source I posted said the diet itself wasn't providing enough nutrition.
It certainly is lacking in calcium... this is just off the top of my head without coffee and in a rush. Keto proponents don't eat dairy except for small amounts of cream. Calcium supplementation was needed, and I suspect that children wouldn't be the only followers of the diet (women come to mind here) needing calcium.
I doubt the average keto'er in nutritional ketosis (not treating epilepsy) is low in calcium. Green leafy veggies are a favourite among many because of flavor, bulk and low carb content. I would guess we eat cheese pretty regularly, and indulge in many high fat dairy products like whipping cream, cheese, sour cream and plain yogurt. Plus fat is needed for calcium absorption so a LCHF diet could be a benefit.
If a keto'er (or anyone for that matter) does not like foods rich in calcium, take a calcium supplement.
The vegetable comment was in reference to your own diet. You consume, on average, about a cup a week of vegetables. I think very few people on a k-e-t-o diet eat like this, but there are a few.
I thought that was aimed at me but it is largely mistaken. While I do have periods of low veggie consumption, like this past week when I was "fat fasting", one cup of vegetables per week is not my average. I exceeded that yesterday with nuts, green beans and celery.
And when you saidAs far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
...I don't think I measure and weigh foods differently than others. Sort of an odd comment to make so I over looked it. I am pretty aware of how much I eat.
Perhaps you are implying that my veggie intake does not meet the recommended daily serving numbers put out by... whomever? No it definitely doesn't, although it IS higher than a cup per week. I'm happy with that.
Wut? You had about what amounted to 4-5 green beans and 3/4 of a stalk of celery.
That was your vegetable consumption. Nuts aren't vegetable matter.
Wow. So much splitting of hairs. Semantics. Judgements. Such a pleasure to come here for someone who chooses to eat differently for medical reasons.
I take close to a dozen supplements and see an orthomolecular doctor (out of pocket) because I am still healing from celiac. I find it offensive that you assume I am not mindful of my micros just because I don't eat the level of fruit and vegetables that you find personally acceptable.
No one has proven poor health WILL result of a zero carb (or close as one can get) diet. Yes a badly planned diet will have deficiencies. This is true of SAD, "moderation", vegetarianism, and all diets.
It is common for people starting LCHF to get low in Mg, Na, and K. I tell people to supplement with that until their bodies get used to that woe. What more do you people want? This is just getting goofy...
I assume nothing. You and umayster are asserting that the diet itself is adequate enough on its own merits.
I'm glad you're supplementing, which is all I was getting to in the first place. Your diet eliminates foods and food groups which provide essential nutrients. It's necessary for those following it to supplement for insurance.
Thus, while it's a choice that can be beneficial for some, for some reasons, keto can clearly not be seen to be an optimal diet, by any means, since by default, it's lacking in full nutrition.
Optimal is probably something that fits your lifestyle, that you can sustain for long term and that doesn't have nutritional issues. So vegan + supplements or strict keto + supplements can be optimal for that person.
It isn't what I'd personally recommend to someone but optimal is contextual - your diet and mine are probably not ideal for each other - given our own variety of factors (health, activity, lifestyle, etc...)
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PeachyCarol wrote: »My mistake then. Nuts seemed to fit better with veggies than with my meat or dairy.PeachyCarol wrote: »_Terrapin_ wrote: »_Terrapin_ wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
Maybe it makes them feel bad? Maybe they like to experiment? Sugar is fun to eat, but no one will suffer ill health without it.
Eating no veggies isn't good for you. Yeah, there are ways to make up the micronutrients (although I suspect they aren't as good), but the vast majority of people who mostly cut out veggies don't actually eat lots of organ meats and the like. (And the traditional Inuit diet, while not keto, doesn't compete with the blue zone diets anyway.)
So claiming eating no veggies is perfectly healthy seems inaccurate.
I think this is more of an opinion than a proven fact.
I do eat veggies. I like them and think they are good for me, but I'm not sure that eating no veggies has been proven harmful for people.
While I agree with this being an opinion, I'm also thinking that no veggies (or fruits) could be harmful in a small sense because....there wouldn't be much quality potty time going on without them! Tons of meat and cheese! Just thinking about the constipation makes me cringe.
Most keto'ers, including me, do not experience constipation. The fats, for me it is largely MCT's (coconut oil), keeps me moving very well. In fact it is almost too well.
Veggies and fibre supplements were a fail for me. I was much much slower before changing to a ketogenic diet.
I'm also of the opinion that fibre is mainly important for helping to move carbohydrates on through. If carbs are lower, then the need for fibre just isn't there.
Granted, too much cheese will slow thngs for many people, but that's not specific to a low carb diet.
As for nutrition, I've only been in ketosis for 5 months, but no problems so far. I am not carb free though. I eat a few veggies every day - more that my "normal" eating husband and two of my kids eat. I do take a multivitamin, but I have for years. No change there.
I would like to suggest that people who are googling keto look at a nutritional ketogenic diet rather than the medically ordered, strict ketogenic diet of those with epilepsy. They really are quite different.
The 2 IRL k-e-t-o friends who I discuss this with both have constipation. Both have been doing this diet for over a year and the one even longer. The individual who has been doing it longer also has epilepsy. He follows a modified Atkins method which provides less restriction then the traditional k-e-t-o diet. It provides for up to 35% protein and can be found on the epilepsy site up thread that I linked.
As far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
*edit spell check made k-e-t-o the word kept
Constipation really isn't the norm. I would hazard a guess that your friends are not getting enough sodium or magnesium; if they increased those they might improve. It could be from certain foods that their bodies have issue with such as cheese. If they were able to expriment a bit (difficult on a medical diet) they may be able to resolve it.
I don't think I'm a special snowflake and one of the rare keto'er who does not have constipation. My conversations with other low carbers would negate that too.
...and most keto'ers get more than a cup of veggies per week! Do you really think that is typical? This is why people need to NOT look at epileptic diets. They are not nutritional ketogenic diets.
Yesterday, not an unusual carb day for me even though I "fat fasted" (only coconut oil) until 4:00pm, I had about1/2 cup macadamia nuts, about 1/3 cup green beans, and later on some celery (with my pork rinds) dipped in an artichoke asiago dip. That was pretty much spot on my usual upper limit of carbs - 18g of carbs which worked out to 3 g of sugar.
And that is just me. Many keto'ers, especially those more active than me, eat many more carbs than I do. A few eat less. The few I know who have been eating very few carbs, and basically no sugar, have fine health.rockstarjosh wrote: »This is good entertainment! Hardly a scientific debate, since there is so much mudslinging (or, "facepalming"), but here is a scientific idea: How about you each experiment with your opponent's hypothesis, see what becomes of it, and come back to the table and discuss your results? The main limitation in every human study about nutrition is that no two humans are alike. Some bodies process certain things better, while others do so worse. For instance, my body loves dairy, but give me bread and you better head for the hills to escape my draft.
Just try stuff out, make it work for you, and you will have a pretty good hypothesis about you! :-)
Good day! #NoPityForTheKitty!
why would I run an experiment on myself and torture myself by eating little or no carbs when I already eat carbs and have lost weight, and kept it off?????
Wow. I agree.
I ate that way (basically SAD with a goal towards moderating my intake) for decades. I'm not going back to that. It was a fail for me.PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »This was after just a quick look through...
Studies/articles mentioning the need for supplementation:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7253814_Mondino_Foundation._The_ketogenic_diet_From_molecular_mechanisms_to_clinical_effects
http://jcn.sagepub.com/content/16/9/633.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1528-1167.2008.01827.x/full
More are behind pay walls but some of the text can be seen when you do a search.
Here are two showing deficiencies found:
http://bjo.bmj.com/content/63/3/191.short
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1528-1157.2003.26102.x/full
To address the two articles with deficiencies found, the first article where the two patients were diagnosed with optic neuropathy, both sets of parents in both case studies admitted that they were not giving the children the prescribed vitamin and mineral supplements. While this does support the claim that the ketogenic diet is lacking in some nutrients, it doesn't provide evidence that people who do keto diets and are obtaining the proper nutrients are at risk.
In the second article, the patient was found to be deficient in selenium, which led to a dilated cardiomyopathy. But later in the article, it states that "Dietary selenium is found in the highest concentrations in meat and seafood," which would be staples of the keto diet. It also states that "Assessment of selenium status is difficult because no optimal method is known. Dietary assessment is inaccurate, and selenium content depends on where the food was grown (soil content), which is usually unknown," which indicates that selenium deficiency is not unique to a keto diet and could occur even in people who eat a diet rich in grains and veggies simply based on location.
It is disappointing that most of the research around keto diets seems to relate to epilepsy as that makes the results difficult to translate to the larger population. Some of the treatments seem to impact nutrient absorption and issues around oral ingestion of foods make it difficult for researchers to get accurate data. That's not to say that a keto diet is not going to have deficiencies, it would just be helpful if the research were more applicable to genpop.
Yeah, another drawback is that most of the research is on children, and most of them are prescribed supplements from the get-go because the diet itself is recognized as being nutrient deficient.
You sort of have to add 2 and 2 here.
Why is the diet inherently nutrient deficient?
Do we have a source anywhere stating which nutrients are deficient on a keto diet following the tenets of the diet? I'm not sure nutrient deficiencies in epileptic kids is the best baseline given the illness and the fact they are still growing, and all I've found from google is concerns about magnesium and recommendations to eat nuts. But that also goes with keto diets which include vegetables, because keto includes vegetables to a degree. I also haven't seen anything on how deficient - are we talking a multivitamin that many people take no matter how they eat, or are we headed into heavy duty supplementation of certain nutrients?
I don't think no carb diet even exists, perhaps @umayster can shed some light on diet planning and supplements for no veggie diets and how that would work.
Every source I posted said the diet itself wasn't providing enough nutrition.
It certainly is lacking in calcium... this is just off the top of my head without coffee and in a rush. Keto proponents don't eat dairy except for small amounts of cream. Calcium supplementation was needed, and I suspect that children wouldn't be the only followers of the diet (women come to mind here) needing calcium.
I doubt the average keto'er in nutritional ketosis (not treating epilepsy) is low in calcium. Green leafy veggies are a favourite among many because of flavor, bulk and low carb content. I would guess we eat cheese pretty regularly, and indulge in many high fat dairy products like whipping cream, cheese, sour cream and plain yogurt. Plus fat is needed for calcium absorption so a LCHF diet could be a benefit.
If a keto'er (or anyone for that matter) does not like foods rich in calcium, take a calcium supplement.
The vegetable comment was in reference to your own diet. You consume, on average, about a cup a week of vegetables. I think very few people on a k-e-t-o diet eat like this, but there are a few.
I thought that was aimed at me but it is largely mistaken. While I do have periods of low veggie consumption, like this past week when I was "fat fasting", one cup of vegetables per week is not my average. I exceeded that yesterday with nuts, green beans and celery.
And when you saidAs far as vegetables, and I'm sure some people use different measuring and weighing methods. For me, 1 cup of vegetables would roughly be a serving. So 1 cup would not equal my weekly intake it would be daily. For some people, by example, eating very low calories I guess less then 1 cup (what ?!? 1/7)is a daily serving. IDK but it seems strange that 1 cup of vegetables for some in a week equals one cup a day for most people. I guess some people weigh and measure differently then the vast majority.
...I don't think I measure and weigh foods differently than others. Sort of an odd comment to make so I over looked it. I am pretty aware of how much I eat.
Perhaps you are implying that my veggie intake does not meet the recommended daily serving numbers put out by... whomever? No it definitely doesn't, although it IS higher than a cup per week. I'm happy with that.
Wut? You had about what amounted to 4-5 green beans and 3/4 of a stalk of celery.
That was your vegetable consumption. Nuts aren't vegetable matter.
Wow. So much splitting of hairs. Semantics. Judgements. Such a pleasure to come here for someone who chooses to eat differently for medical reasons.
I take close to a dozen supplements and see an orthomolecular doctor (out of pocket) because I am still healing from celiac. I find it offensive that you assume I am not mindful of my micros just because I don't eat the level of fruit and vegetables that you find personally acceptable.
No one has proven poor health WILL result of a zero carb (or close as one can get) diet. Yes a badly planned diet will have deficiencies. This is true of SAD, "moderation", vegetarianism, and all diets.
It is common for people starting LCHF to get low in Mg, Na, and K. I tell people to supplement with that until their bodies get used to that woe. What more do you people want? This is just getting goofy...
I assume nothing. You and umayster are asserting that the diet itself is adequate enough on its own merits.
I'm glad you're supplementing, which is all I was getting to in the first place. Your diet eliminates foods and food groups which provide essential nutrients. It's necessary for those following it to supplement for insurance.
Thus, while it's a choice that can be beneficial for some, for some reasons, keto can clearly not be seen to be an optimal diet, by any means, since by default, it's lacking in full nutrition.
I think we are saying the diet CAN BE nutritionally complete with the right food choices, and the ONLY reason it is being said is because others have asserted it CANNOT be nutritionally complete with food choices. that is all!
I think of all the mainstream specialty diets, the only one that requires supplementation in all cases is vegan?0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »I haven't found long term keto-ers talking about the diet unless they sense sincere interest and openness to learning. If someone has no problems with carb intake, talking about the ketogenic diet usually is not very productive and provokes the same (disbelief and mocking) conversation over and over. I only jump in when people who have some kinda hunch they should experiment with their carb intake levels are being actively shut down.
Different perspective here, I and many others here aren't full of either disbelief or mocking - I just know it isn't for me or my lifestyle. But it doesn't mean I am either ignorant or derisive of your own choices.
I've not ever noticed you being anything but thoughtful in you comments, no worries!
Disbelief without the mocking judgements is totally cool, keto does run contrary to a half century of nutritional training!0 -
I'm a sugar addict. 10x worse than cocaine so no, I have not gone without it. If I'm not eating something with added sugar I'm loading up on fruits and carrots to get my fix.0
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meredithgir199 wrote: »I'm a sugar addict. 10x worse than cocaine so no, I have not gone without it. If I'm not eating something with added sugar I'm loading up on fruits and carrots to get my fix.
10x worse than cocaine? How did you study that? What are the withdrawals like? You should see a doctor immediately.
0 -
meredithgir199 wrote: »I'm a sugar addict. 10x worse than cocaine so no, I have not gone without it. If I'm not eating something with added sugar I'm loading up on fruits and carrots to get my fix.
10x worse than cocaine? How did you study that? What are the withdrawals like? You should see a doctor immediately.
I'd like to hear the answer to this one too...0 -
meredithgir199 wrote: »I'm a sugar addict. 10x worse than cocaine so no, I have not gone without it. If I'm not eating something with added sugar I'm loading up on fruits and carrots to get my fix.
No your not , and no sugar is not 10x worse than cocaine...0 -
meredithgir199 wrote: »I'm a sugar addict. 10x worse than cocaine so no, I have not gone without it. If I'm not eating something with added sugar I'm loading up on fruits and carrots to get my fix.
Tongue in cheek? I hope so. If not, you need to get some professional help with this issue.0
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