Calorie Prioritization - Yes, a calorie is a calorie….
Replies
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stevencloser wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
You NEED about 50-60 grams of protein as well as NEED about as much fat, giving you at most 780 kcal intake that you NEED, which is way below what any sane person should eat total.
Ok thanks for telling me this, but we weren't talking about fat yet at all. One topic at a time.
Then let's talk about only protein. You need at least 60-ish at a normal bodyweight, that's the minimum recommendation. Above about 120-ish at a normal bodyweight, no additional positive benefit has been measured regarding muscle building in a surplus. Which means no more than 480 calories, (or let's go a bit beyond and say 600, that's 150 grams of protein, I don't mind) out of what, 2500 minimum bulking calories? are what you would reasonably ingest in protein. So... why do you bang on the fact you NEED this and don't NEED that?0 -
stevencloser wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
You NEED about 50-60 grams of protein as well as NEED about as much fat, giving you at most 780 kcal intake that you NEED, which is way below what any sane person should eat total.
Ok thanks for telling me this, but we weren't talking about fat yet at all. One topic at a time.
my original OP was not about fat either..it was about macros and I believe that fat is a macro ..0 -
But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
If you are bulking you need calories and you may need energy to fuel workouts that is aided by fast carbs, depending on who you are and how you react to certain foods.
More to the point, if you are bulking, what's wrong with an insulin spike? Nothing cited so far seems to support the idea that it ought to be avoided whenever possible.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
thats funny because doughnuts have fat in them and I am pretty sure that you need a minimum amount of fat in your diet...
what about complex carbs, do you need them?
and since we are in the gaining forum you are going to need a certain amount of carbs to stimulate muscle growth and what not, because insulin...
I'm also pretty sure they are different types of fats, but I'm not gonna sit here all day going over every little detail because you cherry pick a word for phrase and run with it. About the doughnut. Yes there is fat, but there is fat in peanut butter, coconut oils too. The difference once again is what the food is, not all food is equal, on a caloric level, nutritional level, and biological level. If a person needs a doughnut to get fat they are doing something wrong, when there are plenty of other foods, that will do the same thing and are just as easy to consume and an overal healthy choice.
If they only had doughnuts to eat, which is doubt is the situation, then fine do what you have to do, but everything has consequences, and eating doughnuts to get fat macros will have it's.
You're precious.
Have another oldie but goldie along the linesof NDJ's "calories are equal but nutrition isn't".
You don't get extra credits for going above and beyond your micronutrient needs.
It goes both ways, you don't get any significant bonus by eating processed sugary foods.
Although, I do believere most people who are here to gain muscle and be healthy would choose foods in extra micronutrients regardless if it helped or not, and limit others. It just makes more sense to.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
thats funny because doughnuts have fat in them and I am pretty sure that you need a minimum amount of fat in your diet...
what about complex carbs, do you need them?
and since we are in the gaining forum you are going to need a certain amount of carbs to stimulate muscle growth and what not, because insulin...
I'm also pretty sure they are different types of fats, but I'm not gonna sit here all day going over every little detail because you cherry pick a word for phrase and run with it. About the doughnut. Yes there is fat, but there is fat in peanut butter, coconut oils too. The difference once again is what the food is, not all food is equal, on a caloric level, nutritional level, and biological level. If a person needs a doughnut to get fat they are doing something wrong, when there are plenty of other foods, that will do the same thing and are just as easy to consume and an overal healthy choice.
If they only had doughnuts to eat, which is doubt is the situation, then fine do what you have to do, but everything has consequences, and eating doughnuts to get fat macros will have it's.
You're precious.
Have another oldie but goldie along the linesof NDJ's "calories are equal but nutrition isn't".
You don't get extra credits for going above and beyond your micronutrient needs.
It goes both ways, you don't get any significant bonus by eating processed sugary foods.
Although, I do believere most people who are here to gain muscle and be healthy would choose foods in extra micronutrients regardless if it helped or not, and limit others. It just makes more sense to.
You don't need either but you do need to get in enough calories to increase your mass. So what do you do? Eat the nutrition your body needs and fill the rest with the nutrition you want. Which is exactly what was said in the OP post.0 -
Oh look! The good ol' IIFYM vs. Bro diet debate. Yay!0
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ryanflebbe wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ryanflebbe wrote: »I really don't feel like answering every question, or comment. Maybe later. The whole point
I have been trying to make is that saying that eating more or less calories than you burn to gain or lose weight and then stopping there and saying that beyond a little difference in macro percentages, nothing else matters, is wrong. What you eat and when you eat it are important considerations that can influence muscle and fat gain.
If by this you mean that the largest considerations is finding a method that allows you to consistently and long term stick to a calorie and macro goal that is in-line with your weight, performance, composition and activity goals then we agree.
If by this you mean you need to eat x meals to lose weight ... err, no.
I think the general issue is where one places the bar of "important consideration" and the relevant goal context.
You have a significant amount of people coming to the board asking "I eat healthy but can't loose (sic) weight", or "do I need to drink water to lose weight" or "I'm struggling to eat 6 meals a day, help I can't lose" or "should I stop snacking after 7 pm", etc...
Getting cals & macros aligned is significantly important to weight loss - the other considerations? A lot less.
Majoring in the minors seems to be a particular problem for a lot of people - so while what you are saying is true, context trumps secondary considerations.
I pretty much agree with what you are saying, particularly when it comes to people just starting to try to lose or gain weight(like most on this site). However, I get annoyed when one of the first things thrown at them is that calories are all that count. The composition of those calories, or when they are eaten don't matter. That's not a very good start to getting educated about nutrition. Of course amount of calories is the predominant factor in gaining or losing weight, and the first thing people pursuing those goals should concentrate on.
1) This thread is for people who are bulking.
2) OP obviously did not say not to worry about anything but calories. He said to think first about micros and then macros.
3) Someone who needs to lose lots and lots of weight probably does have the luxury of not worrying so much about macros for body comp purposes beyond the most extreme diets (even the SAD is something like 15-20% protein, 50% carbs, 35% fat, which isn't going to be an issue). If you have lots of fat to lose you can probably mostly lose fat just with a calorie deficit. It matters more as you are leaner, but leaner people are usually going to be eating a better diet already or know how to do this. So for someone just starting out what matters is figuring out how to stay in a deficit (NOT the topic of this thread, obviously). People vary quite a lot in what helps them stay in a deficit -- you can't claim that any particular meal frequency or macros are what is needed as a general prescription. Also, I don't assume that most people who need to lose lots of weight are ignorant about nutrition. Nutrition isn't so complicated as all that. They just may not want to eat consistently with what's recommended for good nutrition and for them it may well be helpful to realize they don't have to and can focus on other steps. (I think most people end up eating better if they stick with a deficit for a longer period of time, as for most it helps with satiety.)0 -
stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
thats funny because doughnuts have fat in them and I am pretty sure that you need a minimum amount of fat in your diet...
what about complex carbs, do you need them?
and since we are in the gaining forum you are going to need a certain amount of carbs to stimulate muscle growth and what not, because insulin...
I'm also pretty sure they are different types of fats, but I'm not gonna sit here all day going over every little detail because you cherry pick a word for phrase and run with it. About the doughnut. Yes there is fat, but there is fat in peanut butter, coconut oils too. The difference once again is what the food is, not all food is equal, on a caloric level, nutritional level, and biological level. If a person needs a doughnut to get fat they are doing something wrong, when there are plenty of other foods, that will do the same thing and are just as easy to consume and an overal healthy choice.
If they only had doughnuts to eat, which is doubt is the situation, then fine do what you have to do, but everything has consequences, and eating doughnuts to get fat macros will have it's.
You're precious.
Have another oldie but goldie along the linesof NDJ's "calories are equal but nutrition isn't".
You don't get extra credits for going above and beyond your micronutrient needs.
It goes both ways, you don't get any significant bonus by eating processed sugary foods.
Although, I do believere most people who are here to gain muscle and be healthy would choose foods in extra micronutrients regardless if it helped or not, and limit others. It just makes more sense to.
You don't need either but you do need to get in enough calories to increase your mass. So what do you do? Eat the nutrition your body needs and fill the rest with the nutrition you want. Which is exactly what was said in the OP post.
Once I've hit my protein and fat, if I have extra leftover... it's time for ice cream, baby! No shame, no remorse, and no problems with gainz... still increasing weight regularly in my routine and getting stronger all the time.
I love threads like these... too bad I don't have room in my macros today for popcorn, though.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
thats funny because doughnuts have fat in them and I am pretty sure that you need a minimum amount of fat in your diet...
what about complex carbs, do you need them?
and since we are in the gaining forum you are going to need a certain amount of carbs to stimulate muscle growth and what not, because insulin...
I'm also pretty sure they are different types of fats, but I'm not gonna sit here all day going over every little detail because you cherry pick a word for phrase and run with it. About the doughnut. Yes there is fat, but there is fat in peanut butter, coconut oils too. The difference once again is what the food is, not all food is equal, on a caloric level, nutritional level, and biological level. If a person needs a doughnut to get fat they are doing something wrong, when there are plenty of other foods, that will do the same thing and are just as easy to consume and an overal healthy choice.
If they only had doughnuts to eat, which is doubt is the situation, then fine do what you have to do, but everything has consequences, and eating doughnuts to get fat macros will have it's.
You're precious.
Have another oldie but goldie along the linesof NDJ's "calories are equal but nutrition isn't".
You don't get extra credits for going above and beyond your micronutrient needs.
It goes both ways, you don't get any significant bonus by eating processed sugary foods.
Although, I do believere most people who are here to gain muscle and be healthy would choose foods in extra micronutrients regardless if it helped or not, and limit others. It just makes more sense to.
you don't NEED extra micro nutrients either, as you get zero additional benefit from extra micros and your body can only absorb so many...
And if you have a 500 calorie surplus to fill in good luck doing that with 500 calories of vegetables every day ...
maybe you should try and run a bulk and then come back later and lecture us on how to do it properly...0 -
stevencloser wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
thats funny because doughnuts have fat in them and I am pretty sure that you need a minimum amount of fat in your diet...
what about complex carbs, do you need them?
and since we are in the gaining forum you are going to need a certain amount of carbs to stimulate muscle growth and what not, because insulin...
I'm also pretty sure they are different types of fats, but I'm not gonna sit here all day going over every little detail because you cherry pick a word for phrase and run with it. About the doughnut. Yes there is fat, but there is fat in peanut butter, coconut oils too. The difference once again is what the food is, not all food is equal, on a caloric level, nutritional level, and biological level. If a person needs a doughnut to get fat they are doing something wrong, when there are plenty of other foods, that will do the same thing and are just as easy to consume and an overal healthy choice.
If they only had doughnuts to eat, which is doubt is the situation, then fine do what you have to do, but everything has consequences, and eating doughnuts to get fat macros will have it's.
You're precious.
Have another oldie but goldie along the linesof NDJ's "calories are equal but nutrition isn't".
You don't get extra credits for going above and beyond your micronutrient needs.
It goes both ways, you don't get any significant bonus by eating processed sugary foods.
Although, I do believere most people who are here to gain muscle and be healthy would choose foods in extra micronutrients regardless if it helped or not, and limit others. It just makes more sense to.
you don't NEED extra micro nutrients either, as you get zero additional benefit from extra micros and your body can only absorb so many...
And if you have a 500 calorie surplus to fill in good luck doing that with 500 calories of vegetables every day ...
maybe you should try and run a bulk and then come back later and lecture us on how to do it properly...
You can actually do "damage" to your body if ingesting too much of a certain micronutrient.......0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
If you are bulking you need calories and you may need energy to fuel workouts that is aided by fast carbs, depending on who you are and how you react to certain foods.
More to the point, if you are bulking, what's wrong with an insulin spike? Nothing cited so far seems to support the idea that it ought to be avoided whenever possible.
I don't think a person should avoid "spiking", I would recommend doing it after a workout or before to ensure that energy is efficiently used when the body needs it, and these two times are the only times it really be.
But, that is not what I am saying. I am pointing out that foods with high sugar intake spike insulin regardless if you already hit macro requirements or not. It happens, it's not basis, so there is no reason but to consume those foods with these calories, other than hitting number of calories.
When a person says "a calorie is just a calorie." They forget that not all calories are and it' not just nutritionally either.
I don't need to give some link, (even though there is many) I can just give a kid some of those calories;cookies ice cream and candy bars (besides the alcohol), sit back and watch what happens. It's not like i'm making this up.
You'll see an almost instant reaction, then you have to ask why it's not the same reaction if a carb is just a carb or a calorie is just a calorie. If I gave them chicken breast, broccoli, does the same thing happen? And what happens internally?
Then we explore was there an internal effect, it's called insulin spike, Even if protein/fats makes your insulin spike, large amounts of cookies do it more and faster and these foods have no nutritional value. So, we conclude with common sense that we should limit those first foods unless it make sense to consume them. It should only makes sense when you're about to workout, or after, meal timing...
The eating of the calories mention to hit a caloric goal, goes against the OP's explanation regardless, they are supposed to be fillers( but limited) after macros are hit. To even state that one eats them to get fat macros contradicts itself already.
So, there is nothing wrong with an insulin spike, but people should be aware that certain foods, with certain calories can cause unwanted spikes, and cookies, ice cream, soda, just happen to be some.
Alcohol is another subject, it can take up to 3-4 days to recover from drinking it, that is 4 days lost when bulking or cutting. I hope this helps.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
If you are bulking you need calories and you may need energy to fuel workouts that is aided by fast carbs, depending on who you are and how you react to certain foods.
More to the point, if you are bulking, what's wrong with an insulin spike? Nothing cited so far seems to support the idea that it ought to be avoided whenever possible.
I don't think a person should avoid "spiking", I would recommend doing it after a workout or before to ensure that energy is efficiently used when the body needs it, and these two times are the only times it really be should be
But, that is not what I am saying. I am pointing out that foods with high sugar intake spike insulin regardless if you already hit macro requirements or not. It happens, it's not basis, so there is no reason but to consume those foods with these calories, other than hitting number of calories.
When a person says "a calorie is just a calorie." They forget that not all calories are and it' not just nutritionally either.
I don't need to give some link, (even though there is many) I can just give a kid some of those calories;cookies ice cream and candy bars (besides the alcohol), sit back and watch what happens. It's not like i'm making this up.
You'll see an almost instant reaction, then you have to ask why it's not the same reaction if a carb is just a carb or a calorie is just a calorie. If I gave them chicken breast, broccoli, does the same thing happen? And what happens internally?
Then we explore was there an internal effect, it's called insulin spike, Even if protein/fats makes your insulin spike, large amounts of cookies do it more and faster and these foods have no nutritional value. So, we conclude with common sense that we should limit those first foods unless it make sense to consume them. It should only makes sense when you're about to workout, or after, meal timing...
The eating of the calories mention to hit a caloric goal, goes against the OP's explanation regardless, they are supposed to be fillers( but limited) after macros are hit. To even state that one eats them to get fat macros contradicts itself already.
So, there is nothing wrong with an insulin spike, but people should be aware that certain foods, with certain calories can cause unwanted spikes, and cookies, ice cream, soda, just happen to be some.
Alcohol is another subject, it can take up to 3-4 days to recover from drinking it, that is 4 days lost when bulking or cutting. I hope this helps.
You do know there is no "secret" anabolic window post workout, right? Muscle Protein Synthesis usually spikes around 24 hours after you workout and up to 48 hours for total MPS........0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
If you are bulking you need calories and you may need energy to fuel workouts that is aided by fast carbs, depending on who you are and how you react to certain foods.
More to the point, if you are bulking, what's wrong with an insulin spike? Nothing cited so far seems to support the idea that it ought to be avoided whenever possible.
I don't think a person should avoid "spiking", I would recommend doing it after a workout or before to ensure that energy is efficiently used when the body needs it, and these two times are the only times it really be should be
But, that is not what I am saying. I am pointing out that foods with high sugar intake spike insulin regardless if you already hit macro requirements or not. It happens, it's not basis, so there is no reason but to consume those foods with these calories, other than hitting number of calories.
When a person says "a calorie is just a calorie." They forget that not all calories are and it' not just nutritionally either.
I don't need to give some link, (even though there is many) I can just give a kid some of those calories;cookies ice cream and candy bars (besides the alcohol), sit back and watch what happens. It's not like i'm making this up.
You'll see an almost instant reaction, then you have to ask why it's not the same reaction if a carb is just a carb or a calorie is just a calorie. If I gave them chicken breast, broccoli, does the same thing happen? And what happens internally?
Then we explore was there an internal effect, it's called insulin spike, Even if protein/fats makes your insulin spike, large amounts of cookies do it more and faster and these foods have no nutritional value. So, we conclude with common sense that we should limit those first foods unless it make sense to consume them. It should only makes sense when you're about to workout, or after, meal timing...
The eating of the calories mention to hit a caloric goal, goes against the OP's explanation regardless, they are supposed to be fillers( but limited) after macros are hit. To even state that one eats them to get fat macros contradicts itself already.
So, there is nothing wrong with an insulin spike, but people should be aware that certain foods, with certain calories can cause unwanted spikes, and cookies, ice cream, soda, just happen to be some.
Alcohol is another subject, it can take up to 3-4 days to recover from drinking it, that is 4 days lost when bulking or cutting. I hope this helps.
Sorry to take this off topic but I wanted to respond to that-
I know when you give kids sugar people perceive an increase in activity or what parents describe as a "sugar high". Funny thing is, when parents are told their child has been given sugar they perceive the "sugar high" even in case where the child actually wasn't given any.0 -
I understand that, but some sources (not necessarily peer reviewed) will say that there is some benefit to eating more than the RDA for nutrients. That's not to say someone should go and start pounding away at as many micros as possible, but some people think the RDA amounts are for preventing deficiencies of some nutrients and not the most optimal amounts.stevencloser wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
thats funny because doughnuts have fat in them and I am pretty sure that you need a minimum amount of fat in your diet...
what about complex carbs, do you need them?
and since we are in the gaining forum you are going to need a certain amount of carbs to stimulate muscle growth and what not, because insulin...
I'm also pretty sure they are different types of fats, but I'm not gonna sit here all day going over every little detail because you cherry pick a word for phrase and run with it. About the doughnut. Yes there is fat, but there is fat in peanut butter, coconut oils too. The difference once again is what the food is, not all food is equal, on a caloric level, nutritional level, and biological level. If a person needs a doughnut to get fat they are doing something wrong, when there are plenty of other foods, that will do the same thing and are just as easy to consume and an overal healthy choice.
If they only had doughnuts to eat, which is doubt is the situation, then fine do what you have to do, but everything has consequences, and eating doughnuts to get fat macros will have it's.
You're precious.
Have another oldie but goldie along the linesof NDJ's "calories are equal but nutrition isn't".
You don't get extra credits for going above and beyond your micronutrient needs.
It goes both ways, you don't get any significant bonus by eating processed sugary foods.
Although, I do believere most people who are here to gain muscle and be healthy would choose foods in extra micronutrients regardless if it helped or not, and limit others. It just makes more sense to.
you don't NEED extra micro nutrients either, as you get zero additional benefit from extra micros and your body can only absorb so many...
And if you have a 500 calorie surplus to fill in good luck doing that with 500 calories of vegetables every day ...
maybe you should try and run a bulk and then come back later and lecture us on how to do it properly...
You can actually do "damage" to your body if ingesting too much of a certain micronutrient.......
0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
If you are bulking you need calories and you may need energy to fuel workouts that is aided by fast carbs, depending on who you are and how you react to certain foods.
More to the point, if you are bulking, what's wrong with an insulin spike? Nothing cited so far seems to support the idea that it ought to be avoided whenever possible.
I don't think a person should avoid "spiking", I would recommend doing it after a workout or before to ensure that energy is efficiently used when the body needs it, and these two times are the only times it really be.
But, that is not what I am saying. I am pointing out that foods with high sugar intake spike insulin regardless if you already hit macro requirements or not. It happens, it's not basis, so there is no reason but to consume those foods with these calories, other than hitting number of calories.
When a person says "a calorie is just a calorie." They forget that not all calories are and it' not just nutritionally either.
I don't need to give some link, (even though there is many) I can just give a kid some of those calories;cookies ice cream and candy bars (besides the alcohol), sit back and watch what happens. It's not like i'm making this up.
You'll see an almost instant reaction, then you have to ask why it's not the same reaction if a carb is just a carb or a calorie is just a calorie. If I gave them chicken breast, broccoli, does the same thing happen? And what happens internally?
Then we explore was there an internal effect, it's called insulin spike, Even if protein/fats makes your insulin spike, large amounts of cookies do it more and faster and these foods have no nutritional value. So, we conclude with common sense that we should limit those first foods unless it make sense to consume them. It should only makes sense when you're about to workout, or after, meal timing...
The eating of the calories mention to hit a caloric goal, goes against the OP's explanation regardless, they are supposed to be fillers( but limited) after macros are hit. To even state that one eats them to get fat macros contradicts itself already.
So, there is nothing wrong with an insulin spike, but people should be aware that certain foods, with certain calories can cause unwanted spikes, and cookies, ice cream, soda, just happen to be some.
Alcohol is another subject, it can take up to 3-4 days to recover from drinking it, that is 4 days lost when bulking or cutting. I hope this helps.
Interesting, because when people who actually know how to run a study do one, they use a method called double-blind. They don't just give kids candy bars which a kids sees and starts running around before eating because candy bars can be exciting. Instead, proper double-blind studies hide the sugar in other food and then observe what happens, and rate the hyperactivity without themselves knowing which children have been exposed to the variable.
So what happens when we run an experiment that way? Well, we actually find that sugar doesn't cause any of the hyperactivity you think it does via "insulin spiking." That's why I dislike anyone saying common sense proves anything - no, in my epistemology, common sense only proves you're willing to fall back on hearsay instead of actually challenging your assumptions with proper methodology.
So yes, in the sense that you're basing your assumptions on conditions that you create (anticipating kids acting hyper on sugar which leads to them being hyper) you are making it up.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
If you are bulking you need calories and you may need energy to fuel workouts that is aided by fast carbs, depending on who you are and how you react to certain foods.
More to the point, if you are bulking, what's wrong with an insulin spike? Nothing cited so far seems to support the idea that it ought to be avoided whenever possible.
I don't think a person should avoid "spiking", I would recommend doing it after a workout or before to ensure that energy is efficiently used when the body needs it, and these two times are the only times it really be should be
But, that is not what I am saying. I am pointing out that foods with high sugar intake spike insulin regardless if you already hit macro requirements or not. It happens, it's not basis, so there is no reason but to consume those foods with these calories, other than hitting number of calories.
When a person says "a calorie is just a calorie." They forget that not all calories are and it' not just nutritionally either.
I don't need to give some link, (even though there is many) I can just give a kid some of those calories;cookies ice cream and candy bars (besides the alcohol), sit back and watch what happens. It's not like i'm making this up.
You'll see an almost instant reaction, then you have to ask why it's not the same reaction if a carb is just a carb or a calorie is just a calorie. If I gave them chicken breast, broccoli, does the same thing happen? And what happens internally?
Then we explore was there an internal effect, it's called insulin spike, Even if protein/fats makes your insulin spike, large amounts of cookies do it more and faster and these foods have no nutritional value. So, we conclude with common sense that we should limit those first foods unless it make sense to consume them. It should only makes sense when you're about to workout, or after, meal timing...
The eating of the calories mention to hit a caloric goal, goes against the OP's explanation regardless, they are supposed to be fillers( but limited) after macros are hit. To even state that one eats them to get fat macros contradicts itself already.
So, there is nothing wrong with an insulin spike, but people should be aware that certain foods, with certain calories can cause unwanted spikes, and cookies, ice cream, soda, just happen to be some.
Alcohol is another subject, it can take up to 3-4 days to recover from drinking it, that is 4 days lost when bulking or cutting. I hope this helps.
You do know there is no "secret" anabolic window post workout, right? Muscle Protein Synthesis usually spikes around 24 hours after you workout and up to 48 hours for total MPS........
Once again, good information, but what does it even have regards to? Are you giving me information or trying to now talk about protein synthesis.0 -
This post and the billions like it can be boiled down to a single statement:
Micronutrients are important so eat a varied diet.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
If you are bulking you need calories and you may need energy to fuel workouts that is aided by fast carbs, depending on who you are and how you react to certain foods.
More to the point, if you are bulking, what's wrong with an insulin spike? Nothing cited so far seems to support the idea that it ought to be avoided whenever possible.
I don't think a person should avoid "spiking", I would recommend doing it after a workout or before to ensure that energy is efficiently used when the body needs it, and these two times are the only times it really be.
But, that is not what I am saying. I am pointing out that foods with high sugar intake spike insulin regardless if you already hit macro requirements or not. It happens, it's not basis, so there is no reason but to consume those foods with these calories, other than hitting number of calories.
When a person says "a calorie is just a calorie." They forget that not all calories are and it' not just nutritionally either.
I don't need to give some link, (even though there is many) I can just give a kid some of those calories;cookies ice cream and candy bars (besides the alcohol), sit back and watch what happens. It's not like i'm making this up.
You'll see an almost instant reaction, then you have to ask why it's not the same reaction if a carb is just a carb or a calorie is just a calorie. If I gave them chicken breast, broccoli, does the same thing happen? And what happens internally?
Then we explore was there an internal effect, it's called insulin spike, Even if protein/fats makes your insulin spike, large amounts of cookies do it more and faster and these foods have no nutritional value. So, we conclude with common sense that we should limit those first foods unless it make sense to consume them. It should only makes sense when you're about to workout, or after, meal timing...
The eating of the calories mention to hit a caloric goal, goes against the OP's explanation regardless, they are supposed to be fillers( but limited) after macros are hit. To even state that one eats them to get fat macros contradicts itself already.
So, there is nothing wrong with an insulin spike, but people should be aware that certain foods, with certain calories can cause unwanted spikes, and cookies, ice cream, soda, just happen to be some.
Alcohol is another subject, it can take up to 3-4 days to recover from drinking it, that is 4 days lost when bulking or cutting. I hope this helps.
Interesting, because when people who actually know how to run a study do one, they use a method called double-blind. They don't just give kids candy bars which a kids sees and starts running around before eating because candy bars can be exciting. Instead, proper double-blind studies hide the sugar in other food and then observe what happens, and rate the hyperactivity without themselves knowing which children have been exposed to the variable.
So what happens when we run an experiment that way? Well, we actually find that sugar doesn't cause any of the hyperactivity you think it does via "insulin spiking." That's why I dislike anyone saying common sense proves anything - no, in my epistemology, common sense only proves you're willing to fall back on hearsay instead of actually challenging your assumptions with proper methodology.
So yes, in the sense that you're basing your assumptions on conditions that you create (anticipating kids acting hyper on sugar which leads to them being hyper) you are making it up.
Making it up? I'm basing it off experience with being a parent, seeing other kids that have been giving the food sources, hearing about on the internet, memes. There are studies as well one can just type it in google. If I keep posting i'll just be here all day defending myself, as it seems no matter what I write, the links I post you're not willing to see it or ignore it.0 -
JoshLibby wrote:
I don't think a person should avoid "spiking", I would recommend doing it after a workout or before to ensure that energy is efficiently used when the body needs it, and these two times are the only times it really be should bejmule24 wrote:You do know there is no "secret" anabolic window post workout, right? Muscle Protein Synthesis usually spikes around 24 hours after you workout and up to 48 hours for total MPS........joshlibby wrote:Once again, good information, but what does it even have regards to? Are you giving me information or trying to now talk about protein synthesis.
See above posts. So, I just provide "good information," or factual information? Either way, you seem to be disagreeing with your previous statement made.
0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
If you are bulking you need calories and you may need energy to fuel workouts that is aided by fast carbs, depending on who you are and how you react to certain foods.
More to the point, if you are bulking, what's wrong with an insulin spike? Nothing cited so far seems to support the idea that it ought to be avoided whenever possible.
I don't think a person should avoid "spiking", I would recommend doing it after a workout or before to ensure that energy is efficiently used when the body needs it, and these two times are the only times it really be.
But, that is not what I am saying. I am pointing out that foods with high sugar intake spike insulin regardless if you already hit macro requirements or not. It happens, it's not basis, so there is no reason but to consume those foods with these calories, other than hitting number of calories.
I'm trying hard to understand this, but I don't think you've written clearly what you are trying to say.
To recap: Foods with high sugar spike insulin -- well, depends on the fiber and other factors, but okay.
They do so regardless of if you already hit macro requirements or not -- sure, but so?
Based on this you conclude: there is no reason to consume those foods with those calories other than hitting the calories you need.
My response: perhaps not, but getting the calories may be important, and if there's no negative outcome from eating the foods -- and you haven't pointed to any -- why does someone need a special additional reason to do it?
Moving on:When a person says "a calorie is just a calorie." They forget that not all calories are and it' not just nutritionally either.
No, this is a misunderstanding. Calories have no nutrients. They are measures of energy. Foods have nutrients. No one ever says "all foods are identical." That is (obviously) not what "a calorie is a calorie" means. It also is certainly not what I'd take from OP's original post.
As for the kid, not sure what you are claiming would happen, but my understanding is that the "sugar high" thing is basically a myth and is believed to be observed more because we expect it (better not give the kids sugar or they will be hyper) than in reality. However, that aside, I do think that you can get a quick energy boost from sugar and not broccoli or chicken (that's why I used gels when doing a triathlon and didn't chomp away on a chicken leg when on my bike -- well, that and many other good reasons).
Insulin isn't the reason, though -- the quick availability of the sugar you have consumed as fuel for the body is. (Insulin of course helps sugar get where it needs to go.)Even if protein/fats makes your insulin spike, large amounts of cookies do it more and faster and these foods have no nutritional value. So, we conclude with common sense that we should limit those first foods unless it make sense to consume them. It should only makes sense when you're about to workout, or after, meal timing...
Why? This presumes that the insulin is bad. In someone who is insulin sensitive and exercises a good amount, it is not.The eating of the calories mention to hit a caloric goal, goes against the OP's explanation regardless, they are supposed to be fillers( but limited) after macros are hit. To even state that one eats them to get fat macros contradicts itself already.
I'm confused again. You are eating them to fill up your calorie goal. That's what OP said: after macros and micros it doesn't much matter, although he recommended lots of carbs. I did not say anything about fat macros.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
If you are bulking you need calories and you may need energy to fuel workouts that is aided by fast carbs, depending on who you are and how you react to certain foods.
More to the point, if you are bulking, what's wrong with an insulin spike? Nothing cited so far seems to support the idea that it ought to be avoided whenever possible.
I don't think a person should avoid "spiking", I would recommend doing it after a workout or before to ensure that energy is efficiently used when the body needs it, and these two times are the only times it really be.
But, that is not what I am saying. I am pointing out that foods with high sugar intake spike insulin regardless if you already hit macro requirements or not. It happens, it's not basis, so there is no reason but to consume those foods with these calories, other than hitting number of calories.
When a person says "a calorie is just a calorie." They forget that not all calories are and it' not just nutritionally either.
I don't need to give some link, (even though there is many) I can just give a kid some of those calories;cookies ice cream and candy bars (besides the alcohol), sit back and watch what happens. It's not like i'm making this up.
You'll see an almost instant reaction, then you have to ask why it's not the same reaction if a carb is just a carb or a calorie is just a calorie. If I gave them chicken breast, broccoli, does the same thing happen? And what happens internally?
Then we explore was there an internal effect, it's called insulin spike, Even if protein/fats makes your insulin spike, large amounts of cookies do it more and faster and these foods have no nutritional value. So, we conclude with common sense that we should limit those first foods unless it make sense to consume them. It should only makes sense when you're about to workout, or after, meal timing...
The eating of the calories mention to hit a caloric goal, goes against the OP's explanation regardless, they are supposed to be fillers( but limited) after macros are hit. To even state that one eats them to get fat macros contradicts itself already.
So, there is nothing wrong with an insulin spike, but people should be aware that certain foods, with certain calories can cause unwanted spikes, and cookies, ice cream, soda, just happen to be some.
Alcohol is another subject, it can take up to 3-4 days to recover from drinking it, that is 4 days lost when bulking or cutting. I hope this helps.
Interesting, because when people who actually know how to run a study do one, they use a method called double-blind. They don't just give kids candy bars which a kids sees and starts running around before eating because candy bars can be exciting. Instead, proper double-blind studies hide the sugar in other food and then observe what happens, and rate the hyperactivity without themselves knowing which children have been exposed to the variable.
So what happens when we run an experiment that way? Well, we actually find that sugar doesn't cause any of the hyperactivity you think it does via "insulin spiking." That's why I dislike anyone saying common sense proves anything - no, in my epistemology, common sense only proves you're willing to fall back on hearsay instead of actually challenging your assumptions with proper methodology.
So yes, in the sense that you're basing your assumptions on conditions that you create (anticipating kids acting hyper on sugar which leads to them being hyper) you are making it up.
Making it up? I'm basing it off experience with being a parent, seeing other kids that have been giving the food sources, hearing about on the internet, memes. There are studies as well one can just type it in google. If I keep posting i'll just be here all day defending myself, as it seems no matter what I write, the links I post you're not willing to see it or ignore it.
You're basing it on self fulfilling bias. That's what I mean by making it up. Simply looking at your kids and how they behave after giving them a treat is filled with poor methodological design for a psychological study. Are you really not familiar with the fact that all good psychological studies tend to need double blind methodology to prevent "common sense" and other prejudices from just giving people the result they were looking for instead of the truth?
And so far in this thread, I've seen at least one or two instance where people paid more attention to the link you posted than you did. I'd really enjoy seeing a proper, double-blind study done on children's behavior after ingesting sugar.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
If you are bulking you need calories and you may need energy to fuel workouts that is aided by fast carbs, depending on who you are and how you react to certain foods.
More to the point, if you are bulking, what's wrong with an insulin spike? Nothing cited so far seems to support the idea that it ought to be avoided whenever possible.
I don't think a person should avoid "spiking", I would recommend doing it after a workout or before to ensure that energy is efficiently used when the body needs it, and these two times are the only times it really be.
But, that is not what I am saying. I am pointing out that foods with high sugar intake spike insulin regardless if you already hit macro requirements or not. It happens, it's not basis, so there is no reason but to consume those foods with these calories, other than hitting number of calories.
When a person says "a calorie is just a calorie." They forget that not all calories are and it' not just nutritionally either.
I don't need to give some link, (even though there is many) I can just give a kid some of those calories;cookies ice cream and candy bars (besides the alcohol), sit back and watch what happens. It's not like i'm making this up.
You'll see an almost instant reaction, then you have to ask why it's not the same reaction if a carb is just a carb or a calorie is just a calorie. If I gave them chicken breast, broccoli, does the same thing happen? And what happens internally?
Then we explore was there an internal effect, it's called insulin spike, Even if protein/fats makes your insulin spike, large amounts of cookies do it more and faster and these foods have no nutritional value. So, we conclude with common sense that we should limit those first foods unless it make sense to consume them. It should only makes sense when you're about to workout, or after, meal timing...
The eating of the calories mention to hit a caloric goal, goes against the OP's explanation regardless, they are supposed to be fillers( but limited) after macros are hit. To even state that one eats them to get fat macros contradicts itself already.
So, there is nothing wrong with an insulin spike, but people should be aware that certain foods, with certain calories can cause unwanted spikes, and cookies, ice cream, soda, just happen to be some.
Alcohol is another subject, it can take up to 3-4 days to recover from drinking it, that is 4 days lost when bulking or cutting. I hope this helps.
Interesting, because when people who actually know how to run a study do one, they use a method called double-blind. They don't just give kids candy bars which a kids sees and starts running around before eating because candy bars can be exciting. Instead, proper double-blind studies hide the sugar in other food and then observe what happens, and rate the hyperactivity without themselves knowing which children have been exposed to the variable.
So what happens when we run an experiment that way? Well, we actually find that sugar doesn't cause any of the hyperactivity you think it does via "insulin spiking." That's why I dislike anyone saying common sense proves anything - no, in my epistemology, common sense only proves you're willing to fall back on hearsay instead of actually challenging your assumptions with proper methodology.
So yes, in the sense that you're basing your assumptions on conditions that you create (anticipating kids acting hyper on sugar which leads to them being hyper) you are making it up.
Making it up? I'm basing it off experience with being a parent, seeing other kids that have been giving the food sources, hearing about on the internet, memes. There are studies as well one can just type it in google. If I keep posting i'll just be here all day defending myself, as it seems no matter what I write, the links I post you're not willing to see it or ignore it.
Funny, when I google I find studies and articles that talk about the myth of the sugar high and why the myth persists.
I am on my phone so it is hard to link the articles.0 -
Sorry to get back on topic lol but...
A calorie is a calorie since it's a unit of energy, but that doesn't mean that 200 calories from potato chips will have the same effect on body composition as 200 calories from lean protein and veggies.
0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
If you are bulking you need calories and you may need energy to fuel workouts that is aided by fast carbs, depending on who you are and how you react to certain foods.
More to the point, if you are bulking, what's wrong with an insulin spike? Nothing cited so far seems to support the idea that it ought to be avoided whenever possible.
I don't think a person should avoid "spiking", I would recommend doing it after a workout or before to ensure that energy is efficiently used when the body needs it, and these two times are the only times it really be.
But, that is not what I am saying. I am pointing out that foods with high sugar intake spike insulin regardless if you already hit macro requirements or not. It happens, it's not basis, so there is no reason but to consume those foods with these calories, other than hitting number of calories.
When a person says "a calorie is just a calorie." They forget that not all calories are and it' not just nutritionally either.
I don't need to give some link, (even though there is many) I can just give a kid some of those calories;cookies ice cream and candy bars (besides the alcohol), sit back and watch what happens. It's not like i'm making this up.
You'll see an almost instant reaction, then you have to ask why it's not the same reaction if a carb is just a carb or a calorie is just a calorie. If I gave them chicken breast, broccoli, does the same thing happen? And what happens internally?
Then we explore was there an internal effect, it's called insulin spike, Even if protein/fats makes your insulin spike, large amounts of cookies do it more and faster and these foods have no nutritional value. So, we conclude with common sense that we should limit those first foods unless it make sense to consume them. It should only makes sense when you're about to workout, or after, meal timing...
The eating of the calories mention to hit a caloric goal, goes against the OP's explanation regardless, they are supposed to be fillers( but limited) after macros are hit. To even state that one eats them to get fat macros contradicts itself already.
So, there is nothing wrong with an insulin spike, but people should be aware that certain foods, with certain calories can cause unwanted spikes, and cookies, ice cream, soda, just happen to be some.
Alcohol is another subject, it can take up to 3-4 days to recover from drinking it, that is 4 days lost when bulking or cutting. I hope this helps.
Interesting, because when people who actually know how to run a study do one, they use a method called double-blind. They don't just give kids candy bars which a kids sees and starts running around before eating because candy bars can be exciting. Instead, proper double-blind studies hide the sugar in other food and then observe what happens, and rate the hyperactivity without themselves knowing which children have been exposed to the variable.
So what happens when we run an experiment that way? Well, we actually find that sugar doesn't cause any of the hyperactivity you think it does via "insulin spiking." That's why I dislike anyone saying common sense proves anything - no, in my epistemology, common sense only proves you're willing to fall back on hearsay instead of actually challenging your assumptions with proper methodology.
So yes, in the sense that you're basing your assumptions on conditions that you create (anticipating kids acting hyper on sugar which leads to them being hyper) you are making it up.
Making it up? I'm basing it off experience with being a parent, seeing other kids that have been giving the food sources, hearing about on the internet, memes. There are studies as well one can just type it in google. If I keep posting i'll just be here all day defending myself, as it seems no matter what I write, the links I post you're not willing to see it or ignore it.
you get information from internet memes, really?
the links you posted actually ran counter to your insulin argument, as they stated that insulin spikes signal muscle growth.0 -
Sorry to get back on topic lol but...
A calorie is a calorie since it's a unit of energy, but that doesn't mean that 200 calories from potato chips will have the same effect on body composition as 200 calories from lean protein and veggies.
But what about if by the end of the day the macros and total calories were the same? We don't eat 200 calories in isolation, you have to take into account the overall diet, not one snack or meal.0 -
Sorry to get back on topic lol but...
A calorie is a calorie since it's a unit of energy, but that doesn't mean that 200 calories from potato chips will have the same effect on body composition as 200 calories from lean protein and veggies.
Someone eats 3200 calories of lean protein and veggies (good luck doing that -- you should at least include brown rice to make it easier).
Someone else eats 3000 calories of lean protein and veggies plus 200 calories of chips.
Are you really saying there's going to be a meaningful difference in body comp?
The second guy is probably fueling his workouts better, depending on how restrictive your definition of "veggies" is.0 -
If someone wants to bulk on chicken, broccoli, rice, oatmeal, kale, etc., has no problem hitting their surplus, feels good, not overly stuffed, great for them. However in this section there is a lot of "I can't hit my calorie goal, I am stuffed, I'm not gaining, what can I do eat more etc" people are under the misconception that if they have some treat or sugary food it will go straight to turning into fat while that is not true.
Bulking is not easy. There were days that I had 300-500 cals left over at the end of the day and I was stuffed... last thing I want is MORE kale, MORE chicken MORE Greek Yogurt
. Why not enjoy the bulk, so adding in foods I enjoy be it peanut butter, some chips, popcorn, ice cream, cookies, cake, chocolate milk etc. If you enjoy extra chicken and rice and don't feel stuffed, great. If you want to add a mass gainer, great. However, at the end.. hitting the surplus is what matters and why not add foods you like and that are not super filling to help you get there.
As I mentioned before, I had great results with minimal fat gain eating mostly nutrient dense foods, plus a few glasses of wine/beer and a treat most nights and I am happy I went about it the way I did.
Thanks @ndj1979 for this post0 -
A great article by Alan Aragon on The "Clean vs. Dirty" debate....
http://www.simplyshredded.com/research-review-the-dirt-on-clean-eating-written-by-nutrition-expert-alan-aragon.html
And if you're questioning his "creditability" a quick search pulls up these research articles.....
http://www.jissn.com/search/results?terms=alan aragon0 -
Sorry to get back on topic lol but...
A calorie is a calorie since it's a unit of energy, but that doesn't mean that 200 calories from potato chips will have the same effect on body composition as 200 calories from lean protein and veggies.
My OP stated that they give you the same energy; however, they do not contain the same nutritional profile.
Here would be my question back to you. If I have hit macro minimums, and micro nutrients, then what does it matter if i hit my surplus with 500 calories of ice cream or 500 calories of vegetables?0
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