Calorie Prioritization - Yes, a calorie is a calorie….
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But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
You NEED about 50-60 grams of protein as well as NEED about as much fat, giving you at most 780 kcal intake that you NEED, which is way below what any sane person should eat total.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ryanflebbe wrote: »I really don't feel like answering every question, or comment. Maybe later. The whole point
I have been trying to make is that saying that eating more or less calories than you burn to gain or lose weight and then stopping there and saying that beyond a little difference in macro percentages, nothing else matters, is wrong. What you eat and when you eat it are important considerations that can influence muscle and fat gain.
If by this you mean that the largest considerations is finding a method that allows you to consistently and long term stick to a calorie and macro goal that is in-line with your weight, performance, composition and activity goals then we agree.
If by this you mean you need to eat x meals to lose weight ... err, no.
I think the general issue is where one places the bar of "important consideration" and the relevant goal context.
You have a significant amount of people coming to the board asking "I eat healthy but can't loose (sic) weight", or "do I need to drink water to lose weight" or "I'm struggling to eat 6 meals a day, help I can't lose" or "should I stop snacking after 7 pm", etc...
Getting cals & macros aligned is significantly important to weight loss - the other considerations? A lot less.
Majoring in the minors seems to be a particular problem for a lot of people - so while what you are saying is true, context trumps secondary considerations.
I pretty much agree with what you are saying, particularly when it comes to people just starting to try to lose or gain weight(like most on this site). However, I get annoyed when one of the first things thrown at them is that calories are all that count. The composition of those calories, or when they are eaten don't matter. That's not a very good start to getting educated about nutrition. Of course amount of calories is the predominant factor in gaining or losing weight, and the first thing people pursuing those goals should concentrate on.0 -
ryanflebbe wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ryanflebbe wrote: »I really don't feel like answering every question, or comment. Maybe later. The whole point
I have been trying to make is that saying that eating more or less calories than you burn to gain or lose weight and then stopping there and saying that beyond a little difference in macro percentages, nothing else matters, is wrong. What you eat and when you eat it are important considerations that can influence muscle and fat gain.
If by this you mean that the largest considerations is finding a method that allows you to consistently and long term stick to a calorie and macro goal that is in-line with your weight, performance, composition and activity goals then we agree.
If by this you mean you need to eat x meals to lose weight ... err, no.
I think the general issue is where one places the bar of "important consideration" and the relevant goal context.
You have a significant amount of people coming to the board asking "I eat healthy but can't loose (sic) weight", or "do I need to drink water to lose weight" or "I'm struggling to eat 6 meals a day, help I can't lose" or "should I stop snacking after 7 pm", etc...
Getting cals & macros aligned is significantly important to weight loss - the other considerations? A lot less.
Majoring in the minors seems to be a particular problem for a lot of people - so while what you are saying is true, context trumps secondary considerations.
I pretty much agree with what you are saying, particularly when it comes to people just starting to try to lose or gain weight(like most on this site). However, I get annoyed when one of the first things thrown at them is that calories are all that count. The composition of those calories, or when they are eaten don't matter. That's not a very good start to getting educated about nutrition. Of course amount of calories is the predominant factor in gaining or losing weight, and the first thing people pursuing those goals should concentrate on.
most advice that is given to newbies is that calorie deficit is the most important factor for weight loss, and then as one gets leaner one should pay attention to micros and macros and find some form or lifting regimen or exercise that they enjoy.
Please link us to a thread on the gaining forum where someone said "eat all the calories you want and don't worry about micros and macros"? The ONLY time I see "just eat" recommended is when someone is recovering from an eating disorder and they need to add 30 pounds just to get to a healthy weight, and even those threads typically say that said person should be getting adequate nutrition and macros.
For the millionth time, all calories are the same from an energy standpoint; however, they are not all nutritionally the same.0 -
ryanflebbe wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ryanflebbe wrote: »I really don't feel like answering every question, or comment. Maybe later. The whole point
I have been trying to make is that saying that eating more or less calories than you burn to gain or lose weight and then stopping there and saying that beyond a little difference in macro percentages, nothing else matters, is wrong. What you eat and when you eat it are important considerations that can influence muscle and fat gain.
If by this you mean that the largest considerations is finding a method that allows you to consistently and long term stick to a calorie and macro goal that is in-line with your weight, performance, composition and activity goals then we agree.
If by this you mean you need to eat x meals to lose weight ... err, no.
I think the general issue is where one places the bar of "important consideration" and the relevant goal context.
You have a significant amount of people coming to the board asking "I eat healthy but can't loose (sic) weight", or "do I need to drink water to lose weight" or "I'm struggling to eat 6 meals a day, help I can't lose" or "should I stop snacking after 7 pm", etc...
Getting cals & macros aligned is significantly important to weight loss - the other considerations? A lot less.
Majoring in the minors seems to be a particular problem for a lot of people - so while what you are saying is true, context trumps secondary considerations.
I pretty much agree with what you are saying, particularly when it comes to people just starting to try to lose or gain weight(like most on this site). However, I get annoyed when one of the first things thrown at them is that calories are all that count. The composition of those calories, or when they are eaten don't matter. That's not a very good start to getting educated about nutrition. Of course amount of calories is the predominant factor in gaining or losing weight, and the first thing people pursuing those goals should concentrate on.
The composition in terms of macros is going to be just fine if the person just eats consciously without paying too much attention to macro intake. The amounts that are actually necessary are so low it's unlikely to be under the minimums. If you want to be as optimal in everything as you can, that's when you absolutely should make sure about your macros. For everyone else being in a ballpark between the 60-120 g of protein that would be about minimum-optimum for a normal weight adult male is good enough.
And timing still didn't matter unless maybe if you're an elite athlete concerned with getting that 1% extra performance.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »ryanflebbe wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ryanflebbe wrote: »I really don't feel like answering every question, or comment. Maybe later. The whole point
I have been trying to make is that saying that eating more or less calories than you burn to gain or lose weight and then stopping there and saying that beyond a little difference in macro percentages, nothing else matters, is wrong. What you eat and when you eat it are important considerations that can influence muscle and fat gain.
If by this you mean that the largest considerations is finding a method that allows you to consistently and long term stick to a calorie and macro goal that is in-line with your weight, performance, composition and activity goals then we agree.
If by this you mean you need to eat x meals to lose weight ... err, no.
I think the general issue is where one places the bar of "important consideration" and the relevant goal context.
You have a significant amount of people coming to the board asking "I eat healthy but can't loose (sic) weight", or "do I need to drink water to lose weight" or "I'm struggling to eat 6 meals a day, help I can't lose" or "should I stop snacking after 7 pm", etc...
Getting cals & macros aligned is significantly important to weight loss - the other considerations? A lot less.
Majoring in the minors seems to be a particular problem for a lot of people - so while what you are saying is true, context trumps secondary considerations.
I pretty much agree with what you are saying, particularly when it comes to people just starting to try to lose or gain weight(like most on this site). However, I get annoyed when one of the first things thrown at them is that calories are all that count. The composition of those calories, or when they are eaten don't matter. That's not a very good start to getting educated about nutrition. Of course amount of calories is the predominant factor in gaining or losing weight, and the first thing people pursuing those goals should concentrate on.
The composition in terms of macros is going to be just fine if the person just eats consciously without paying too much attention to macro intake. The amounts that are actually necessary are so low it's unlikely to be under the minimums. If you want to be as optimal in everything as you can, that's when you absolutely should make sure about your macros. For everyone else being in a ballpark between the 60-120 g of protein that would be about minimum-optimum for a normal weight adult male is good enough.
And timing still didn't matter unless maybe if you're an elite athlete concerned with getting that 1% extra performance.
^ This. If you're at the level that you need to track and correlate if having a meal at 3:15 or 3:37 matters, or if 10grams more protein versus 10 more grams of carbs matters to your performance, you should not only be getting paid to be that concerned, but paid enough that you've hired someone to help you nutritionally and statistically prove that it is correct, and correct for you.0 -
ryanflebbe wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ryanflebbe wrote: »I really don't feel like answering every question, or comment. Maybe later. The whole point
I have been trying to make is that saying that eating more or less calories than you burn to gain or lose weight and then stopping there and saying that beyond a little difference in macro percentages, nothing else matters, is wrong. What you eat and when you eat it are important considerations that can influence muscle and fat gain.
If by this you mean that the largest considerations is finding a method that allows you to consistently and long term stick to a calorie and macro goal that is in-line with your weight, performance, composition and activity goals then we agree.
If by this you mean you need to eat x meals to lose weight ... err, no.
I think the general issue is where one places the bar of "important consideration" and the relevant goal context.
You have a significant amount of people coming to the board asking "I eat healthy but can't loose (sic) weight", or "do I need to drink water to lose weight" or "I'm struggling to eat 6 meals a day, help I can't lose" or "should I stop snacking after 7 pm", etc...
Getting cals & macros aligned is significantly important to weight loss - the other considerations? A lot less.
Majoring in the minors seems to be a particular problem for a lot of people - so while what you are saying is true, context trumps secondary considerations.
I pretty much agree with what you are saying, particularly when it comes to people just starting to try to lose or gain weight(like most on this site). However, I get annoyed when one of the first things thrown at them is that calories are all that count. The composition of those calories, or when they are eaten don't matter. That's not a very good start to getting educated about nutrition. Of course amount of calories is the predominant factor in gaining or losing weight, and the first thing people pursuing those goals should concentrate on.
I think you touch on an important point - how much to focus on addressing the basic question of 'gah, i just want to lose this weight' versus 'think more globally' especially since the second leads so many people to focus on the 'wrong' things.
The format here is isn't really often productive for a nutritional education or even for understanding a person's context.
It is an ongoing conversation - at all levels of knowledge.0 -
But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
thats funny because doughnuts have fat in them and I am pretty sure that you need a minimum amount of fat in your diet...
what about complex carbs, do you need them?
and since we are in the gaining forum you are going to need a certain amount of carbs to stimulate muscle growth and what not, because insulin...
I'm also pretty sure they are different types of fats, but I'm not gonna sit here all day going over every little detail because you cherry pick a word for phrase and run with it. About the doughnut. Yes there is fat, but there is fat in peanut butter, coconut oils too. The difference once again is what the food is, not all food is equal, on a caloric level, nutritional level, and biological level. If a person needs a doughnut to get fat they are doing something wrong, when there are plenty of other foods, that will do the same thing and are just as easy to consume and an overal healthy choice.
If they only had doughnuts to eat, which is doubt is the situation, then fine do what you have to do, but everything has consequences, and eating doughnuts to get fat macros will have it's.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
You NEED about 50-60 grams of protein as well as NEED about as much fat, giving you at most 780 kcal intake that you NEED, which is way below what any sane person should eat total.
Ok thanks for telling me this, but we weren't talking about fat yet at all. One topic at a time.
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But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
thats funny because doughnuts have fat in them and I am pretty sure that you need a minimum amount of fat in your diet...
what about complex carbs, do you need them?
and since we are in the gaining forum you are going to need a certain amount of carbs to stimulate muscle growth and what not, because insulin...
I'm also pretty sure they are different types of fats, but I'm not gonna sit here all day going over every little detail because you cherry pick a word for phrase and run with it. About the doughnut. Yes there is fat, but there is fat in peanut butter, coconut oils too. The difference once again is what the food is, not all food is equal, on a caloric level, nutritional level, and biological level. If a person needs a doughnut to get fat they are doing something wrong, when there are plenty of other foods, that will do the same thing and are just as easy to consume and an overal healthy choice.
If they only had doughnuts to eat, which is doubt is the situation, then fine do what you have to do, but everything has consequences, and eating doughnuts to get fat macros will have it's.
You're precious.
Have another oldie but goldie along the linesof NDJ's "calories are equal but nutrition isn't".
You don't get extra credits for going above and beyond your micronutrient needs.0 -
But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
thats funny because doughnuts have fat in them and I am pretty sure that you need a minimum amount of fat in your diet...
what about complex carbs, do you need them?
and since we are in the gaining forum you are going to need a certain amount of carbs to stimulate muscle growth and what not, because insulin...
I'm also pretty sure they are different types of fats, but I'm not gonna sit here all day going over every little detail because you cherry pick a word for phrase and run with it. About the doughnut. Yes there is fat, but there is fat in peanut butter, coconut oils too. The difference once again is what the food is, not all food is equal, on a caloric level, nutritional level, and biological level. If a person needs a doughnut to get fat they are doing something wrong, when there are plenty of other foods, that will do the same thing and are just as easy to consume and an overal healthy choice.
If they only had doughnuts to eat, which is doubt is the situation, then fine do what you have to do, but everything has consequences, and eating doughnuts to get fat macros will have it's.
what is the consequence of having one doughnut a day?
well since absolutely no one eats a diet of only doughnuts not really sure what you are talking about. You can have a few doughnuts in the context of an overall healthy diet and have zero issues.
I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand but all calories provide the same energy, they just do not have the same nutritional profile.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
You NEED about 50-60 grams of protein as well as NEED about as much fat, giving you at most 780 kcal intake that you NEED, which is way below what any sane person should eat total.
Ok thanks for telling me this, but we weren't talking about fat yet at all. One topic at a time.
Then let's talk about only protein. You need at least 60-ish at a normal bodyweight, that's the minimum recommendation. Above about 120-ish at a normal bodyweight, no additional positive benefit has been measured regarding muscle building in a surplus. Which means no more than 480 calories, (or let's go a bit beyond and say 600, that's 150 grams of protein, I don't mind) out of what, 2500 minimum bulking calories? are what you would reasonably ingest in protein. So... why do you bang on the fact you NEED this and don't NEED that?0 -
stevencloser wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
You NEED about 50-60 grams of protein as well as NEED about as much fat, giving you at most 780 kcal intake that you NEED, which is way below what any sane person should eat total.
Ok thanks for telling me this, but we weren't talking about fat yet at all. One topic at a time.
my original OP was not about fat either..it was about macros and I believe that fat is a macro ..0 -
But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
If you are bulking you need calories and you may need energy to fuel workouts that is aided by fast carbs, depending on who you are and how you react to certain foods.
More to the point, if you are bulking, what's wrong with an insulin spike? Nothing cited so far seems to support the idea that it ought to be avoided whenever possible.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
thats funny because doughnuts have fat in them and I am pretty sure that you need a minimum amount of fat in your diet...
what about complex carbs, do you need them?
and since we are in the gaining forum you are going to need a certain amount of carbs to stimulate muscle growth and what not, because insulin...
I'm also pretty sure they are different types of fats, but I'm not gonna sit here all day going over every little detail because you cherry pick a word for phrase and run with it. About the doughnut. Yes there is fat, but there is fat in peanut butter, coconut oils too. The difference once again is what the food is, not all food is equal, on a caloric level, nutritional level, and biological level. If a person needs a doughnut to get fat they are doing something wrong, when there are plenty of other foods, that will do the same thing and are just as easy to consume and an overal healthy choice.
If they only had doughnuts to eat, which is doubt is the situation, then fine do what you have to do, but everything has consequences, and eating doughnuts to get fat macros will have it's.
You're precious.
Have another oldie but goldie along the linesof NDJ's "calories are equal but nutrition isn't".
You don't get extra credits for going above and beyond your micronutrient needs.
It goes both ways, you don't get any significant bonus by eating processed sugary foods.
Although, I do believere most people who are here to gain muscle and be healthy would choose foods in extra micronutrients regardless if it helped or not, and limit others. It just makes more sense to.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
thats funny because doughnuts have fat in them and I am pretty sure that you need a minimum amount of fat in your diet...
what about complex carbs, do you need them?
and since we are in the gaining forum you are going to need a certain amount of carbs to stimulate muscle growth and what not, because insulin...
I'm also pretty sure they are different types of fats, but I'm not gonna sit here all day going over every little detail because you cherry pick a word for phrase and run with it. About the doughnut. Yes there is fat, but there is fat in peanut butter, coconut oils too. The difference once again is what the food is, not all food is equal, on a caloric level, nutritional level, and biological level. If a person needs a doughnut to get fat they are doing something wrong, when there are plenty of other foods, that will do the same thing and are just as easy to consume and an overal healthy choice.
If they only had doughnuts to eat, which is doubt is the situation, then fine do what you have to do, but everything has consequences, and eating doughnuts to get fat macros will have it's.
You're precious.
Have another oldie but goldie along the linesof NDJ's "calories are equal but nutrition isn't".
You don't get extra credits for going above and beyond your micronutrient needs.
It goes both ways, you don't get any significant bonus by eating processed sugary foods.
Although, I do believere most people who are here to gain muscle and be healthy would choose foods in extra micronutrients regardless if it helped or not, and limit others. It just makes more sense to.
You don't need either but you do need to get in enough calories to increase your mass. So what do you do? Eat the nutrition your body needs and fill the rest with the nutrition you want. Which is exactly what was said in the OP post.0 -
Oh look! The good ol' IIFYM vs. Bro diet debate. Yay!0
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ryanflebbe wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ryanflebbe wrote: »I really don't feel like answering every question, or comment. Maybe later. The whole point
I have been trying to make is that saying that eating more or less calories than you burn to gain or lose weight and then stopping there and saying that beyond a little difference in macro percentages, nothing else matters, is wrong. What you eat and when you eat it are important considerations that can influence muscle and fat gain.
If by this you mean that the largest considerations is finding a method that allows you to consistently and long term stick to a calorie and macro goal that is in-line with your weight, performance, composition and activity goals then we agree.
If by this you mean you need to eat x meals to lose weight ... err, no.
I think the general issue is where one places the bar of "important consideration" and the relevant goal context.
You have a significant amount of people coming to the board asking "I eat healthy but can't loose (sic) weight", or "do I need to drink water to lose weight" or "I'm struggling to eat 6 meals a day, help I can't lose" or "should I stop snacking after 7 pm", etc...
Getting cals & macros aligned is significantly important to weight loss - the other considerations? A lot less.
Majoring in the minors seems to be a particular problem for a lot of people - so while what you are saying is true, context trumps secondary considerations.
I pretty much agree with what you are saying, particularly when it comes to people just starting to try to lose or gain weight(like most on this site). However, I get annoyed when one of the first things thrown at them is that calories are all that count. The composition of those calories, or when they are eaten don't matter. That's not a very good start to getting educated about nutrition. Of course amount of calories is the predominant factor in gaining or losing weight, and the first thing people pursuing those goals should concentrate on.
1) This thread is for people who are bulking.
2) OP obviously did not say not to worry about anything but calories. He said to think first about micros and then macros.
3) Someone who needs to lose lots and lots of weight probably does have the luxury of not worrying so much about macros for body comp purposes beyond the most extreme diets (even the SAD is something like 15-20% protein, 50% carbs, 35% fat, which isn't going to be an issue). If you have lots of fat to lose you can probably mostly lose fat just with a calorie deficit. It matters more as you are leaner, but leaner people are usually going to be eating a better diet already or know how to do this. So for someone just starting out what matters is figuring out how to stay in a deficit (NOT the topic of this thread, obviously). People vary quite a lot in what helps them stay in a deficit -- you can't claim that any particular meal frequency or macros are what is needed as a general prescription. Also, I don't assume that most people who need to lose lots of weight are ignorant about nutrition. Nutrition isn't so complicated as all that. They just may not want to eat consistently with what's recommended for good nutrition and for them it may well be helpful to realize they don't have to and can focus on other steps. (I think most people end up eating better if they stick with a deficit for a longer period of time, as for most it helps with satiety.)0 -
stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
thats funny because doughnuts have fat in them and I am pretty sure that you need a minimum amount of fat in your diet...
what about complex carbs, do you need them?
and since we are in the gaining forum you are going to need a certain amount of carbs to stimulate muscle growth and what not, because insulin...
I'm also pretty sure they are different types of fats, but I'm not gonna sit here all day going over every little detail because you cherry pick a word for phrase and run with it. About the doughnut. Yes there is fat, but there is fat in peanut butter, coconut oils too. The difference once again is what the food is, not all food is equal, on a caloric level, nutritional level, and biological level. If a person needs a doughnut to get fat they are doing something wrong, when there are plenty of other foods, that will do the same thing and are just as easy to consume and an overal healthy choice.
If they only had doughnuts to eat, which is doubt is the situation, then fine do what you have to do, but everything has consequences, and eating doughnuts to get fat macros will have it's.
You're precious.
Have another oldie but goldie along the linesof NDJ's "calories are equal but nutrition isn't".
You don't get extra credits for going above and beyond your micronutrient needs.
It goes both ways, you don't get any significant bonus by eating processed sugary foods.
Although, I do believere most people who are here to gain muscle and be healthy would choose foods in extra micronutrients regardless if it helped or not, and limit others. It just makes more sense to.
You don't need either but you do need to get in enough calories to increase your mass. So what do you do? Eat the nutrition your body needs and fill the rest with the nutrition you want. Which is exactly what was said in the OP post.
Once I've hit my protein and fat, if I have extra leftover... it's time for ice cream, baby! No shame, no remorse, and no problems with gainz... still increasing weight regularly in my routine and getting stronger all the time.
I love threads like these... too bad I don't have room in my macros today for popcorn, though.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »But doughnuts have the insulin effect and the vegetables do not. The spike of insulin would differ no matter the calories amount, sugar is the variable, the amount the kind, and how it's broken down. THE END
You are aware that protein also causes a rise in blood sugar/insulin spike also, right?
Here's a good research review article to help you learn a little more about what insulin is and what it does, complete with plenty of scientific studies done on humans (not mouse studies, as you linked in your subsequent post): weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-7-insulin-and-thinking-better/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
I can only respond to this by saying you NEED protein, you DO NOT need simple carbs like PROCESSED SUGARY FOODS doughnuts, cookies, ice cream, as you made completely aware by posting this.
thats funny because doughnuts have fat in them and I am pretty sure that you need a minimum amount of fat in your diet...
what about complex carbs, do you need them?
and since we are in the gaining forum you are going to need a certain amount of carbs to stimulate muscle growth and what not, because insulin...
I'm also pretty sure they are different types of fats, but I'm not gonna sit here all day going over every little detail because you cherry pick a word for phrase and run with it. About the doughnut. Yes there is fat, but there is fat in peanut butter, coconut oils too. The difference once again is what the food is, not all food is equal, on a caloric level, nutritional level, and biological level. If a person needs a doughnut to get fat they are doing something wrong, when there are plenty of other foods, that will do the same thing and are just as easy to consume and an overal healthy choice.
If they only had doughnuts to eat, which is doubt is the situation, then fine do what you have to do, but everything has consequences, and eating doughnuts to get fat macros will have it's.
You're precious.
Have another oldie but goldie along the linesof NDJ's "calories are equal but nutrition isn't".
You don't get extra credits for going above and beyond your micronutrient needs.
It goes both ways, you don't get any significant bonus by eating processed sugary foods.
Although, I do believere most people who are here to gain muscle and be healthy would choose foods in extra micronutrients regardless if it helped or not, and limit others. It just makes more sense to.
you don't NEED extra micro nutrients either, as you get zero additional benefit from extra micros and your body can only absorb so many...
And if you have a 500 calorie surplus to fill in good luck doing that with 500 calories of vegetables every day ...
maybe you should try and run a bulk and then come back later and lecture us on how to do it properly...0
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