Calling out Lazy is the Lazy answer
Replies
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I think the barriers to success are often far more subtle than the motivators. For instance, the motivator might be,
"Live a long and vital life to avoid debilitating old age and be around for my grandchildren."
But the barrier might be,
"But I love toast!"
I might have a long internal chat with myself about toast and all it means. Maybe I don't have to give up toast to see my great-grandchildren.
When people pop in here asking us to motivate them, I think they are often clueless what's holding them back. And it might be mundane things like hating to get up early in the morning, not liking the gym scene, or loving toast. I'm channeling Duhigg's book on Habits here. In his conclusion he suggests that the triggers and rewards are so very personal he can't give a definitive answer on how individuals can build better habits. People have to figure out their triggers and rewards, through trial and error and careful introspection, on their own.0 -
Like to hear some here on how they address the question "I need motivation or need to be motivated".
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I refuse to open those threads because my answer would be "motivate yourself" although in slightly more colorful language. And that answer, while it may be a harsh truth, really won't help anyone. So, I don't bother.0 -
On one hand I agree, and yet I get really angry with people who ask for help and then proceed to shoot down every helpful response that comes his or her way. They want the easy answer, the magic bullet, and there never is one. I admit I'm not the most sympathetic person, though.
Agreed. And again, I back out because "just stay fat" is not an acceptable response...0 -
rainbowbow wrote: »Did you see my suggestions as somehow forcing success on others, @rainbowbow ?
You're suggesting that providing people the information they need is not enough.
We need to coddle them, ask them pointed questions, help them find their internal motivation and hold their hand. As i stated earlier, once someone has the know-how of what needs to be done to succeed it becomes their CHOICE. Nothing you or I say is going to convince them to take the steps they personally need to succeed. The motivation needed to begin will very quickly come down to dedication they need to continue.
We are not personal counselors and i see nothing wrong with providing people with information and knowledge or personal experience for free. If anything, i see that as kindness. What i think is overstepping is trying to act like their own personal therapist.
edit: you also implied that if we aren't acting as such, we are giving them the "lazy" answer.
ITA. If someone is dealing with the type of issues that require this level of probing to lead them down the path to "being ready", they need a personal coach or counselor. It isn't the responsibility of volunteers on a forum to gently go with them on this process. Other than saying, "perhaps you need to put more thought into why you want to make this change and what is psychologically holding you back", anyone dealing with the lack of self-esteem, fear of failure, and emotional issues with food that are most likely involved should NOT be going through that with random strangers on the interwebs. It's fascinating stuff, but personally I don't think it is any of our responsibility or privilege (depending on how you look at it) to go there. All we can and I think should do, is give them the facts, vouch for our experience, and suggest they look deeper themselves.0 -
@rainbowbow - is kindness the same as coddling?
Kindness is the compassionate alternative to coddling or "tough love."
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kshama2001 wrote: »@rainbowbow - is kindness the same as coddling?
Kindness is the compassionate alternative to coddling or "tough love."
Wut?0 -
Like to hear some here on how they address the question "I need motivation or need to be motivated".
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I don't think people who ask this are actually asking for someone to be their motivation, I think they are looking for someone to help them figure out what to do or with whom to share a common goal. At least on here, I might suggest a group that is something they might be interested in, or suggest checking out the Challenges section.0 -
rainbowbow wrote: »Did you see my suggestions as somehow forcing success on others, @rainbowbow ?
You're suggesting that providing people the information they need is not enough.
We need to coddle them, ask them pointed questions, help them find their internal motivation and hold their hand. As i stated earlier, once someone has the know-how of what needs to be done to succeed it becomes their CHOICE. Nothing you or I say is going to convince them to take the steps they personally need to succeed. The motivation needed to begin will very quickly come down to dedication they need to continue.
We are not personal counselors and i see nothing wrong with providing people with information and knowledge or personal experience for free. If anything, i see that as kindness. What i think is overstepping is trying to act like their own personal therapist.
edit: you also implied that if we aren't acting as such, we are giving them the "lazy" answer.
ITA. If someone is dealing with the type of issues that require this level of probing to lead them down the path to "being ready", they need a personal coach or counselor. It isn't the responsibility of volunteers on a forum to gently go with them on this process. Other than saying, "perhaps you need to put more thought into why you want to make this change and what is psychologically holding you back", anyone dealing with the lack of self-esteem, fear of failure, and emotional issues with food that are most likely involved should NOT be going through that with random strangers on the interwebs. It's fascinating stuff, but personally I don't think it is any of our responsibility or privilege (depending on how you look at it) to go there. All we can and I think should do, is give them the facts, vouch for our experience, and suggest they look deeper themselves.
Well to be fair, no one is MAKING you respond to those types of threads. We're not all volunteers in some kind of weight loss army. We're just people all trying to lose/gain/maintain weight using the same system or modifications of the same system. You make it sound like you'd list posting forum responses on your charity volunteer experience.
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tincanonastring wrote: »Like to hear some here on how they address the question "I need motivation or need to be motivated".
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I generally don't address it. If someone is posting that, IMO they don't have the inner-drive yet to make the changes and anything I say about finding it is going to fall on deaf ears. I try to help people who are ready for help.
this is why we're friends
on the rare occasions when i address I.. surprise, surprise... call it like i see it and tell them motivation comes from within. Which is true. None of us lost weight or were successful long term without having our OWN motivation. Whether vanity or health or whatever.... no changes were made until (we) were ready.
Then, of course you have the 'special snowflakes' who think they know what needs to be done, but it's all old wives tales,and bro science or making things more complicated than CICO and they dont want to listen to facts, science and proof of what works. 'They' know best and nothing anyone tries to tell them (no matter how successful that person has been) will be even acknowledged.0 -
@rainbowbow - is kindness the same as coddling?
No, but truth, however phrased, is more kind than a an answer that someone wants to hear, but does not help them. So a harsh truth is far kinder than any sort of coddling.
ETA: Re: definition of "Lazy:" Well, I started from my own inference that when you used the word, you meant someone who knows rationally what they need to do to reach the goal that they set for themselves, but doesn't do it because its difficult for them (for any reason at all). If you meant something else, we can define our terms now, I suppose.
As for the French peasants, I do note that after the French revolution, some of them did stop being peasants. Perhaps the more appropriate metaphor would be that each of us here certainly has the opportunities to make choices that those people did. If we still don't make those choices, then, yes, we are being lazy with regard to reaching certain goals. 0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »@rainbowbow - is kindness the same as coddling?
Kindness is the compassionate alternative to coddling or "tough love."
I am a strong believer in tough love. ask my children.
LOL
I can be kind, but I'm not sugar coating jack S**t for anyone. If you're not ready to lose weight and make sometimes very major changes, most likely for the rest of your life to at least some degree, you won't be successful, and especially not long term.0 -
rainbowbow wrote: »I think this is nonsense.
Listen, motivation, will-power, dedication, all of these things come from within. No amount of coddling or (conversely) shaming is going to push someone over the edge to make their own decisions. That's something they have to do.
In my opinion, you either want it or you don't. You either put the effort in or you don't. Period. And I have definitely seen people who put very little effort into weight loss, see very little results, and then want to be validated for it. They want to be told they're "special" and something must be wrong with them because it shouldn't be so hard.
Let's not put the responsibility of someone's success on others, because the fact of the matter is their own actions determine their failures.
You.
I like you.0 -
Hey, I was the tough love mom, too. But I did it with kindness. There's nothing quite like a sock to the jaw with a velvet glove.
I'm all about effectiveness. I want my words to have impact, and not be wasted. The easiest way to waste my words is not to be heard at all.0 -
blues4miles wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »Did you see my suggestions as somehow forcing success on others, @rainbowbow ?
You're suggesting that providing people the information they need is not enough.
We need to coddle them, ask them pointed questions, help them find their internal motivation and hold their hand. As i stated earlier, once someone has the know-how of what needs to be done to succeed it becomes their CHOICE. Nothing you or I say is going to convince them to take the steps they personally need to succeed. The motivation needed to begin will very quickly come down to dedication they need to continue.
We are not personal counselors and i see nothing wrong with providing people with information and knowledge or personal experience for free. If anything, i see that as kindness. What i think is overstepping is trying to act like their own personal therapist.
edit: you also implied that if we aren't acting as such, we are giving them the "lazy" answer.
ITA. If someone is dealing with the type of issues that require this level of probing to lead them down the path to "being ready", they need a personal coach or counselor. It isn't the responsibility of volunteers on a forum to gently go with them on this process. Other than saying, "perhaps you need to put more thought into why you want to make this change and what is psychologically holding you back", anyone dealing with the lack of self-esteem, fear of failure, and emotional issues with food that are most likely involved should NOT be going through that with random strangers on the interwebs. It's fascinating stuff, but personally I don't think it is any of our responsibility or privilege (depending on how you look at it) to go there. All we can and I think should do, is give them the facts, vouch for our experience, and suggest they look deeper themselves.
Well to be fair, no one is MAKING you respond to those types of threads. We're not all volunteers in some kind of weight loss army. We're just people all trying to lose/gain/maintain weight using the same system or modifications of the same system. You make it sound like you'd list posting forum responses on your charity volunteer experience.
That's not really what I was saying. Based on OP's follow up posts, it sounds like she thinks rather than telling people they don't sound ready to do the work, we should be asking them carefully worded questions to help them figure out what is holding them back. I don't think NOT asking those questions and NOT taking the time to guide newbies down that psychological path is lazy. And there are lots of people here every day who have lost the weight, are happily in maintenance, but they stay on the forums to try to help people who have questions. I just don't think what OP is discussing should be expected of people.0 -
fivethreeone wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »I think this is nonsense.
Listen, motivation, will-power, dedication, all of these things come from within. No amount of coddling or (conversely) shaming is going to push someone over the edge to make their own decisions. That's something they have to do.
In my opinion, you either want it or you don't. You either put the effort in or you don't. Period. And I have definitely seen people who put very little effort into weight loss, see very little results, and then want to be validated for it. They want to be told they're "special" and something must be wrong with them because it shouldn't be so hard.
Let's not put the responsibility of someone's success on others, because the fact of the matter is their own actions determine their failures.
You.
I like you.
+10 -
There are many of us with a military backgrounds and "kid gloves" isn't our style. We weren't trained that way, we didn't work as a unit that way, we simply don't think that way. We motivate through many methods, but a "sad sack" usually gets some tough love...
There are many others who (for a plethora of reasons) don't think that way either. Maybe they were always the last one picked at kick-ball. Maybe they're still angry over the cancellation of "Saved By The Bell: The College Years." Maybe they're just wired to be mean.
In short, it takes all kinds. If someone puts themselves out in the public forums, they should be prepared for many different types of responses. Just because someone has a different style, or potentially offends the OP (by calling them "lazy") doesn't make them right or wrong necessarily. In many cases they don't mean to offend, but to motivate. (But yes, in many, many cases they're simply trolls.)
There are of course many instances where responders intend to be hurtful, but still "play" within forum regulations. In that case, it's probably best to take a "Sticks-and-stones..." attitude.
Additionally, if the OP is offended by a response that they don't like (but isn't outside forum rules), maybe they weren't ready and really shouldn't have posted in the first place...
The Interwebz is full of hate (GamerGate, ISIS, etc...). Sadly, the public arena is not for the thin-skinned.0 -
@EddieHaskell97 I have a friend in the military recovering from a repetitive strain injury, and watching her I've wondered how the military handles the whole "do or die" mentality. I understand that boot camp and pushing recruits past their perceived limits is done for legitimate reasons. Commanders need to know that their soldiers will act when they need them to act.
But I understand if there is an injury of some sort, at least the Canadian soldier has a new job; get well. They are expected to comply with all rehabilitation efforts. Which might explain some rather spectacular recovery studies done with recovering soldiers. I understand civilians don't have quite the same compliance rate.
So the whole "do or die" mentality comes with a caveat, doesn't it? Sure, push yourself to do things you never thought possible, but also pay attention to your body's limits.0 -
blues4miles wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »Did you see my suggestions as somehow forcing success on others, @rainbowbow ?
You're suggesting that providing people the information they need is not enough.
We need to coddle them, ask them pointed questions, help them find their internal motivation and hold their hand. As i stated earlier, once someone has the know-how of what needs to be done to succeed it becomes their CHOICE. Nothing you or I say is going to convince them to take the steps they personally need to succeed. The motivation needed to begin will very quickly come down to dedication they need to continue.
We are not personal counselors and i see nothing wrong with providing people with information and knowledge or personal experience for free. If anything, i see that as kindness. What i think is overstepping is trying to act like their own personal therapist.
edit: you also implied that if we aren't acting as such, we are giving them the "lazy" answer.
ITA. If someone is dealing with the type of issues that require this level of probing to lead them down the path to "being ready", they need a personal coach or counselor. It isn't the responsibility of volunteers on a forum to gently go with them on this process. Other than saying, "perhaps you need to put more thought into why you want to make this change and what is psychologically holding you back", anyone dealing with the lack of self-esteem, fear of failure, and emotional issues with food that are most likely involved should NOT be going through that with random strangers on the interwebs. It's fascinating stuff, but personally I don't think it is any of our responsibility or privilege (depending on how you look at it) to go there. All we can and I think should do, is give them the facts, vouch for our experience, and suggest they look deeper themselves.
Well to be fair, no one is MAKING you respond to those types of threads. We're not all volunteers in some kind of weight loss army. We're just people all trying to lose/gain/maintain weight using the same system or modifications of the same system. You make it sound like you'd list posting forum responses on your charity volunteer experience.
That's not really what I was saying. Based on OP's follow up posts, it sounds like she thinks rather than telling people they don't sound ready to do the work, we should be asking them carefully worded questions to help them figure out what is holding them back. I don't think NOT asking those questions and NOT taking the time to guide newbies down that psychological path is lazy. And there are lots of people here every day who have lost the weight, are happily in maintenance, but they stay on the forums to try to help people who have questions. I just don't think what OP is discussing should be expected of people.
Basically, this is a "mean people" thread.0 -
Is not a mean people thread! I'm insulted now. Go check my posting history. I'm no milquetoast.0
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@kimny72 I think silence is fine, especially if you see nothing more you can contribute to a situation.
What I dislike is calling out people as lazy. That's far too simple an answer and unfair.
Isn't that what you did in your OP, though. I like most of this post, just not the way it started out by insulting people. And imho that's going to set the tone for the responses you get.0 -
chelsy0587 wrote: »Wish I could "like" this post
Ditto.
I have seen posters called lazy on many occasions. Or other derogatory adjectives that are just as unhelpful.
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blues4miles wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »Did you see my suggestions as somehow forcing success on others, @rainbowbow ?
You're suggesting that providing people the information they need is not enough.
We need to coddle them, ask them pointed questions, help them find their internal motivation and hold their hand. As i stated earlier, once someone has the know-how of what needs to be done to succeed it becomes their CHOICE. Nothing you or I say is going to convince them to take the steps they personally need to succeed. The motivation needed to begin will very quickly come down to dedication they need to continue.
We are not personal counselors and i see nothing wrong with providing people with information and knowledge or personal experience for free. If anything, i see that as kindness. What i think is overstepping is trying to act like their own personal therapist.
edit: you also implied that if we aren't acting as such, we are giving them the "lazy" answer.
ITA. If someone is dealing with the type of issues that require this level of probing to lead them down the path to "being ready", they need a personal coach or counselor. It isn't the responsibility of volunteers on a forum to gently go with them on this process. Other than saying, "perhaps you need to put more thought into why you want to make this change and what is psychologically holding you back", anyone dealing with the lack of self-esteem, fear of failure, and emotional issues with food that are most likely involved should NOT be going through that with random strangers on the interwebs. It's fascinating stuff, but personally I don't think it is any of our responsibility or privilege (depending on how you look at it) to go there. All we can and I think should do, is give them the facts, vouch for our experience, and suggest they look deeper themselves.
Well to be fair, no one is MAKING you respond to those types of threads. We're not all volunteers in some kind of weight loss army. We're just people all trying to lose/gain/maintain weight using the same system or modifications of the same system. You make it sound like you'd list posting forum responses on your charity volunteer experience.
That's not really what I was saying. Based on OP's follow up posts, it sounds like she thinks rather than telling people they don't sound ready to do the work, we should be asking them carefully worded questions to help them figure out what is holding them back. I don't think NOT asking those questions and NOT taking the time to guide newbies down that psychological path is lazy. And there are lots of people here every day who have lost the weight, are happily in maintenance, but they stay on the forums to try to help people who have questions. I just don't think what OP is discussing should be expected of people.
I don't think she's saying it should be expected of people, but you also have the choice not to respond. If taking the time to go through the process with someone isn't something you have time for or feel like doing, perhaps just not responding at all is the better way to go. It's not like success is based on whether users X, Y, and Z respond to your topic, and that you have to have an answer from them in order move forward. There are plenty of people in the community who are willing to take the time, so I think she is suggesting that rather than a "lazy" or soundbite answer, move on to another topic.0 -
y'know, I'd like to add that, in my natural state, I'm one of the laziest people I've ever known. For whatever genetic or psychological reason, I can just be happy as a clam sitting on my butt eating chips and accomplishing nothing. It was a learning process for me to come to know that I can also be happy NOT being lazy...maybe even happier.
Is your main point really that, if we do actually think its productive to point out that one problem a person has is that they're just being lazy, it CAN potentially be done without being a total a-hole, and that this approach might even be more productive? Cuz, well, yeah.0 -
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We got a little derailed with the motivation topic, but back to the point about calling someone lazy. Sometimes people need that. I don't agree that this is a "mean people" thread, but I get that posters are frustrated when the truth is taken as being mean. If someone is coming up with excuse after excuse about why they can't exercise even if they are physically able (just as an example), it's appropriate and truthful to call them lazy. That's just one of the responses they will receive. Some will couch it in nicer terms. Others will probe them further with questions. A few will enable the laziness.
Sometimes the "you're being lazy" gets through...
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1088600/dear-mean-people-of-mfp#latest0 -
@kimny72 I think silence is fine, especially if you see nothing more you can contribute to a situation.
What I dislike is calling out people as lazy. That's far too simple an answer and unfair.
Not always, although I don't do it.
I gained a lot of weight when I had a stressful job, worked all the time, and did not manage my life well. I would have claimed that I had no choice, since I didn't have time to cook (or shop), let alone to work out. (I controlled my weight when younger by exercising a good bit and the job came with perks like lots of restaurant meals and the ability to order food from lots of good restaurants if you stayed 'til 9.)
But at some point I realized that not everyone I worked with was fat or gaining weight. Most, in fact, were not. And it hit me that they were prioritizing differently and managing better. It was not, actually, too hard for me to take control of my weight. And so I did.
Years later I regained, but it was again helpful that I'd had that prior realization. Not controlling my weight was a choice, a decision that I had made (if only because I'd not done other things), and not because my life was harder than other people's.
I have never been a lazy person, but I can be lazy in some aspects of my life (too prone to the "I deserve this to make up for that" nonsense). Realizing that I could too do things differently and was choosing not to (being lazy) was important. It was even helpful when I spent a couple of years (2012 and 2013, specifically) continuing to be lazy about it, since I decided I did not yet want to change enough to do it. But that was my choice. I was super busy during that time period, but I still had the ability to lose weight if I had been willing to do it. I don't beat myself up for not, but accepting this responsibility is important to me.0 -
I won't call the "I need motivation" topic a derailment. There is a certain contingent of the lost and needy that pop in here. Depending on how they ask for help, it's difficult to be helpful.0
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Best doctor I ever met told me that it was time to think that my post-pneumonia can't breathe attacks might be all in my head
Shocked the hell out of me
He told me that strong people have the most issues with losing that kind of control
He was mean, by some of your standards
He helped me get on the road to fixing myself
My trainer tells me I can do it, tells me he doesn't care if I want to stop...and I do it
I am motivated by a bit of "mean" clearly
On the flip side touchy-feely softly pandering gets on my last nerve0 -
As part of this discussion, @lemurcat12 I did a quick search on the word "lazy". People are much more likely to call themselves lazy.
I have used it to describe myself as I will always seek the simpler way to do a job. I attribute my laziness as an asset when looking to make a job more efficient.
My question got lost in the thread somewhere, but what is laziness, really? I maintain it's an outward symptom of something else.0
This discussion has been closed.
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