Vegan missionary attacking my steak dinner
Replies
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janejellyroll wrote: »I don't personally try to make anyone feel like *kitten* for eating meat but as a Vegan, some of us can't help but see beyond the plate and the cruelty about it. I'm surprised to see that other Vegans don't understand that because most of us want to be a voice for the animals. I've decided to take the don't ask don't tell policy but I it's NOT cool for anyone to mock animals and attack Vegans either. Since this is MFP, I do think we should focus on the health benefits.
I understand *why* someone would want to speak to others about veganism. Believe me, I do. But if we want to be effective advocates, we have to be mindful of when and how we do this.
Speaking up just to make ourselves feel better is stupid and selfish because it is counter-productive. It doesn't help a single animal and that should be our focus area -- not our personal desire to "be a voice for animals."
When the time and the place is right, I will gladly engage in advocacy. But the way to do that isn't to FR people and then give them unsolicited comments about "furbabies." People aren't here to hear about veganism (unless they indicate that they are) and it isn't going to go well. Just like it usually won't go well if you corner co-workers or try to convert your cousins over Thanksgiving dinner. Wrong-headed attempts at outreach and advocacy harm animals by creating damaging perceptions of vegans and veganism.
If someone wants to "attack vegans," that's pretty irrelevant. It doesn't harm animals. If there are misconceptions about veganism or vegans, I'll attempt to address them. But otherwise, it doesn't really matter.
I mean, I love to talk about politics, but I would be weirded out if someone sent me a FR and then began trying to persuade me to vote for Ted Cruz. It isn't why people are here. It's just not the purpose of this website.
Sounds fair to me! I remember walking by animal rights activists and thinking those people were crazy. I just wanted to take my kids to the circus and didn't want to be bothered! That approach didn't work with me because I really didn't believe animals were abused until I saw it with my own eyes. I actually discovered the truth while googling juice recipes and kept seeing the word "Vegan" pop up. So out of curiosity, I researched it and watched several documentaries and was blown away! No one kept bugging me about it but I certainly wish I was "listening" at the time because I felt stupid afterwards! Once I made the connection, all I wanted to do was help, even if it's just changing my own lifestyle.0 -
I miss the old days when people would just friend request you to stalk you.0
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SarcasmIsMyLoveLanguage wrote: »I don't personally try to make anyone feel like *kitten* for eating meat but as a Vegan, some of us can't help but see beyond the plate and the cruelty about it. I'm surprised to see that other Vegans don't understand that because most of us want to be a voice for the animals. I've decided to take the don't ask don't tell policy but I it's NOT cool for anyone to mock animals and attack Vegans either. Since this is MFP, I do think we should focus on the health benefits.
I seem to recall another thread where someone said they graffiti "go vegan" when they're on vacation. Does that fall under the don't ask, don't tell policy?
LOL, No, I don't think so. It's a nice way to spread the message and I would never call it graffiti! It was written in the snow and the sand. If it was a heart would you have called it graffiti? Now I see commercials and billboards all day long advertising processed foods, meat and dairy followed up by drugs promoting heart, cancer, obesity, diabetes and medical relief. What do you think about that....graffiti?0 -
I find that changing one's own lifestyle is the most effective means of change for several reasons.
One, you can only affect change in yourself, change in others must come from themselves.
Two, if you live by any kind of creedo and people are interested or attracted to either the lifestyle or the "results" of said lifestyle, they'll ask of their own volition which means they are amenable to change. It they aren't interested, they won't ask.
Three, any attempt to communicate something that exists outside of someone's current worldview or belief structure will be met with (often intense) resistance. Since change must be a series of internal decisions that lead to outward change, this resistance tends to firmly entrench those people in a position where they are not able or willing to hear your point, which brings us back to One.
I've found this to be true of almost any topic, be it a belief structure/religion, politics, health and weight loss, etc.0 -
BecomingBane wrote: »I find that changing one's own lifestyle is the most effective means of change for several reasons.
One, you can only affect change in yourself, change in others must come from themselves.
Two, if you live by any kind of creedo and people are interested or attracted to either the lifestyle or the "results" of said lifestyle, they'll ask of their own volition which means they are amenable to change. It they aren't interested, they won't ask.
Three, any attempt to communicate something that exists outside of someone's current worldview or belief structure will be met with (often intense) resistance. Since change must be a series of internal decisions that lead to outward change, this resistance tends to firmly entrench those people in a position where they are not able or willing to hear your point, which brings us back to One.
I've found this to be true of almost any topic, be it a belief structure/religion, politics, health and weight loss, etc.
I agree 1,000%.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
Just like it usually won't go well if you corner co-workers or try to convert your cousins over Thanksgiving dinner.
Or sisters-in-law ha ha!0 -
Dang!! Wish I hadn't read this... I don't know how i feel about it all since I just picked up 20 pounds of ground fresh venison at the processor station, and truthfully all i was thinking about as super low fat very high protein, and it is not fish for a change. Sorry not trying to offend just a Tennessee country boy raised poor so we only had meat from the woods and vegies right out of our garden. A very close friend of mine is actually a vegan and he seems pretty cool to me.. city boy but still cool!!! I just told him this past evening how I can understand how he is vegan and could actually get by on them myself. Counting calories and looking at nutrient content has been a huge eye opener for me. For now however I have a freezer loaded with a majestic buck that I must honor by not allowing his life to have passed in vain. I am very respectful to his sacrifice for my family's benefit. My dad had an iron rule that we were raised on " If you kill it you will eat it" .... after my BB gun experience I can tell you all this right now, toad frog does not taste good at all.0
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Dang!! Wish I hadn't read this... I don't know how i feel about it all since I just picked up 20 pounds of ground fresh venison at the processor station, and truthfully all i was thinking about as super low fat very high protein, and it is not fish for a change. Sorry not trying to offend just a Tennessee country boy raised poor so we only had meat from the woods and vegies right out of our garden. A very close friend of mine is actually a vegan and he seems pretty cool to me.. city boy but still cool!!! I just told him this past evening how I can understand how he is vegan and could actually get by on them myself. Counting calories and looking at nutrient content has been a huge eye opener for me. For now however I have a freezer loaded with a majestic buck that I must honor by not allowing his life to have passed in vain. I am very respectful to his sacrifice for my family's benefit. My dad had an iron rule that we were raised on " If you kill it you will eat it" .... after my BB gun experience I can tell you all this right now, toad frog does not taste good at all.
You can donate the meat if you want. I know there are some organizations that will accept donated game meat to ground up and send to homeless shelters. You'll have to look up and see if there's one in your area. Or maybe donate it directly to a shelter. That way, you can start down the path you want to go, but the meat doesn't go to waste.0 -
CoffeeNCardio wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »
Just like it usually won't go well if you corner co-workers or try to convert your cousins over Thanksgiving dinner.
Or sisters-in-law ha ha!
That's just a recipe for disaster.
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One of my favorite, all time quotes: "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." -Winston Churchill
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ElizabethOakes2 wrote: »If I'm not supposed to eat meat, why do I teeth evolutionarily designed for eating meat? ...
This use to be my question, as well; until my brother had his appendix removed. Basically we have body parts, that once might of been necessary; yet no longer're. So then, why do we still have them? My guess is 1 because our abilities via our minds, evolved faster than our bodies, 2 because we might someday need, them again; like if an apocalypse happens & 3 because they're still're people that exist, that don't have access; to produce, etc. because they reside in climates, too harsh; to cultivate such.0 -
ElizabethOakes2 wrote: »If I'm not supposed to eat meat, why do I teeth evolutionarily designed for eating meat? ...
But our teeth are designed to eat meat AND veggies, not just one or the other. Humans are physically omnivores, though someone going on a vegan/vegetarian diet does fine as long as they get the nutrients from meat in another way. Most people I know that are vegan or vegetarian do so because of moral and ethical reasons, not because they believe it's the most appropriate diet for humans.0 -
ElizabethOakes2 wrote: »If I'm not supposed to eat meat, why do I teeth evolutionarily designed for eating meat? ...
Check out the teeth of a gorilla ... massive incisors on a massive plant-eater
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ElizabethOakes2 wrote: »If I'm not supposed to eat meat, why do I teeth evolutionarily designed for eating meat? ...
But our teeth are designed to eat meat AND veggies, not just one or the other. Humans are physically omnivores, though someone going on a vegan/vegetarian diet does fine as long as they get the nutrients from meat in another way. Most people I know that are vegan or vegetarian do so because of moral and ethical reasons, not because they believe it's the most appropriate diet for humans.
This.
I have no idea what I am "meant" to eat. When you look at various human populations, you see people thriving on all types of diets. I know that I can thrive without eating animal products and that's enough for me.
If you think about it, the fact that our body will *allow* us to do something isn't really sufficient justification to do it. Think about it. If I'm not supposed to punch people, why is it so easy to make my hand into a fist and hit them? That's a silly argument.
There may be good justifications for eating meat, but the fact that our teeth are capable of chewing meat isn't one of them.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »ElizabethOakes2 wrote: »If I'm not supposed to eat meat, why do I teeth evolutionarily designed for eating meat? ...
But our teeth are designed to eat meat AND veggies, not just one or the other. Humans are physically omnivores, though someone going on a vegan/vegetarian diet does fine as long as they get the nutrients from meat in another way. Most people I know that are vegan or vegetarian do so because of moral and ethical reasons, not because they believe it's the most appropriate diet for humans.
If you think about it, the fact that our body will *allow* us to do something isn't really sufficient justification to do it. Think about it. If I'm not supposed to punch people, why is it so easy to make my hand into a fist and hit them? That's a silly argument.
Depends on who the other person is.
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juggernaut1974 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »ElizabethOakes2 wrote: »If I'm not supposed to eat meat, why do I teeth evolutionarily designed for eating meat? ...
But our teeth are designed to eat meat AND veggies, not just one or the other. Humans are physically omnivores, though someone going on a vegan/vegetarian diet does fine as long as they get the nutrients from meat in another way. Most people I know that are vegan or vegetarian do so because of moral and ethical reasons, not because they believe it's the most appropriate diet for humans.
If you think about it, the fact that our body will *allow* us to do something isn't really sufficient justification to do it. Think about it. If I'm not supposed to punch people, why is it so easy to make my hand into a fist and hit them? That's a silly argument.
Depends on who the other person is.
Punchable face, it's a real thing.0 -
Wow that is creepy. I would delete her from my friends list.0
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ElizabethOakes2 wrote: »If I'm not supposed to eat meat, why do I teeth evolutionarily designed for eating meat? ...
But our teeth are designed to eat meat AND veggies, not just one or the other. Humans are physically omnivores, though someone going on a vegan/vegetarian diet does fine as long as they get the nutrients from meat in another way. Most people I know that are vegan or vegetarian do so because of moral and ethical reasons, not because they believe it's the most appropriate diet for humans.
Basically even things we consider herbivores will often eat meat if it is available to them and safe to eat. It's all about survival. Species that could eat/digest the widest range of food survived. People are like that. If we don't have access to carbs, we'll find a way to synthesize it from the fat and protein we eat, because our brains need carbs. Our ancestors went through a lot of famines when food was sparse, and it was always harder to get than it is now. Trying to draw the connection between doing what our ancestors did as if that is what we are made or evolved to do as being the healthiest for us is silly. Sure we evolved to eat meat in addition to just about anything else. But if folks don't want to eat meat today, we have a wide variety of food sources and they'll be perfectly healthy. Eating a 'paloelithic' diet to mimic our ancestors in order to achieve modern day health is silly. But if people want to eat low carb or ketogenic because they feel better on it or it helps them achieve their goals, more power to them.0 -
ElizabethOakes2 wrote: »If I'm not supposed to eat meat, why do I teeth evolutionarily designed for eating meat? ...
But our teeth are designed to eat meat AND veggies, not just one or the other. Humans are physically omnivores, though someone going on a vegan/vegetarian diet does fine as long as they get the nutrients from meat in another way. Most people I know that are vegan or vegetarian do so because of moral and ethical reasons, not because they believe it's the most appropriate diet for humans.
I wholeheartedly agree. I don't think it could matter less what we are biologically designed to eat. We're human, in the era of technology and the longest average lifespan in recorded history. Our teeth mean nothing anymore because we have outgrown evolution. Natural Selection no longer applies to us. We don't leave the runt of our litter to die because they can't fight their siblings for the last share of food. We have canines because they were required to crawl to the top of the food chain. Which no longer applies to us. Teeth mean nothing to this argument. Vegans, non-militant normal vegans, have profound ethical reasons for why they don't consume animal products/buy products that were tested on animals. Bringing up dental structure, on either side of this argument, as a means to make one side look superior is a cheap and intellectually absurd way to discuss how we "should" eat. And it cheapens and discards the very real concerns for animal welfare that decent people use to make the choice to be vegan. As a meat eater, I would never use the "but I have canines!" argument in defense of my omnivorism, and nor should a vegan use the opposite.0 -
CoffeeNCardio wrote: »ElizabethOakes2 wrote: »If I'm not supposed to eat meat, why do I teeth evolutionarily designed for eating meat? ...
But our teeth are designed to eat meat AND veggies, not just one or the other. Humans are physically omnivores, though someone going on a vegan/vegetarian diet does fine as long as they get the nutrients from meat in another way. Most people I know that are vegan or vegetarian do so because of moral and ethical reasons, not because they believe it's the most appropriate diet for humans.
I wholeheartedly agree. I don't think it could matter less what we are biologically designed to eat. We're human, in the era of technology and the longest average lifespan in recorded history. Our teeth mean nothing anymore because we have outgrown evolution. Natural Selection no longer applies to us. We don't leave the runt of our litter to die because they can't fight their siblings for the last share of food. We have canines because they were required to crawl to the top of the food chain. Which no longer applies to us. Teeth mean nothing to this argument. Vegans, non-militant normal vegans, have profound ethical reasons for why they don't consume animal products/buy products that were tested on animals. Bringing up dental structure, on either side of this argument, as a means to make one side look superior is a cheap and intellectually absurd way to discuss how we "should" eat. And it cheapens and discards the very real concerns for animal welfare that decent people use to make the choice to be vegan. As a meat eater, I would never use the "but I have canines!" argument in defense of my omnivorism, and nor should a vegan use the opposite.
But my canines are so good at demolishing fibrous veg and seitan.
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BecomingBane wrote: »CoffeeNCardio wrote: »ElizabethOakes2 wrote: »If I'm not supposed to eat meat, why do I teeth evolutionarily designed for eating meat? ...
But our teeth are designed to eat meat AND veggies, not just one or the other. Humans are physically omnivores, though someone going on a vegan/vegetarian diet does fine as long as they get the nutrients from meat in another way. Most people I know that are vegan or vegetarian do so because of moral and ethical reasons, not because they believe it's the most appropriate diet for humans.
I wholeheartedly agree. I don't think it could matter less what we are biologically designed to eat. We're human, in the era of technology and the longest average lifespan in recorded history. Our teeth mean nothing anymore because we have outgrown evolution. Natural Selection no longer applies to us. We don't leave the runt of our litter to die because they can't fight their siblings for the last share of food. We have canines because they were required to crawl to the top of the food chain. Which no longer applies to us. Teeth mean nothing to this argument. Vegans, non-militant normal vegans, have profound ethical reasons for why they don't consume animal products/buy products that were tested on animals. Bringing up dental structure, on either side of this argument, as a means to make one side look superior is a cheap and intellectually absurd way to discuss how we "should" eat. And it cheapens and discards the very real concerns for animal welfare that decent people use to make the choice to be vegan. As a meat eater, I would never use the "but I have canines!" argument in defense of my omnivorism, and nor should a vegan use the opposite.
But my canines are so good at demolishing fibrous veg and seitan.
Lol, I love seitan;)0 -
I also read that animals that are naturally carnivorous don't develop heart disease and other problems from getting too much cholesterol in their diets etc, so that's one counter-argument to the whole humans have meat-eating teeth thing. The appeal to nature argument is pretty irrelevant though, because many things we handle daily are not natural either. Like the computers we use to access this message board, or the giant concrete buildings we live in.0
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ElizabethOakes2 wrote: »If I'm not supposed to eat meat, why do I teeth evolutionarily designed for eating meat? ...
But our teeth are designed to eat meat AND veggies, not just one or the other. Humans are physically omnivores, though someone going on a vegan/vegetarian diet does fine as long as they get the nutrients from meat in another way. Most people I know that are vegan or vegetarian do so because of moral and ethical reasons, not because they believe it's the most appropriate diet for humans.
Saying vegans do fine as long as they get their nutrients in other ways is just like saying people who eat meat will do fine as long as they get their nutrients in other ways. I've never met someone who just ate Meat and Vegans don't just eat lettuce. This is a huge misconception people have that needs to be cleared up because just cutting meat out of your diet and not changing anything else will not make you deficient. Take a gander at all of those cereal boxes, protein supplements and processed food labels in your kitchen and you'll see where you really get all of your nutrients from that are fortified with B12, D, B, Iron, Calcium, etc? The fact is that we can get all of our nutrients from plants but since people are sold lies and don't eat healthy, most of us get them from fortified foods! But if you don't believe me, go get a blood test and see if you are deficient in anything. It makes no difference if you are a meat eater or vegan. Learn more about nutrition and eat more varieties of plant foods or continue eating fortified processed foods or take your vitamins.0 -
ElizabethOakes2 wrote: »If I'm not supposed to eat meat, why do I teeth evolutionarily designed for eating meat? ...
But our teeth are designed to eat meat AND veggies, not just one or the other. Humans are physically omnivores, though someone going on a vegan/vegetarian diet does fine as long as they get the nutrients from meat in another way. Most people I know that are vegan or vegetarian do so because of moral and ethical reasons, not because they believe it's the most appropriate diet for humans.
Saying vegans do fine as long as they get their nutrients in other ways is just like saying people who eat meat will do fine as long as they get their nutrients in other ways. I've never met someone who just ate Meat and Vegans don't just eat lettuce. This is a huge misconception people have that needs to be cleared up because just cutting meat out of your diet and not changing anything else will not make you deficient. Take a gander at all of those cereal boxes, protein supplements and processed food labels in your kitchen and you'll see where you really get all of your nutrients from that are fortified with B12, D, B, Iron, Calcium, etc? The fact is that we can get all of our nutrients from plants but since people are sold lies and don't eat healthy, most of us get them from fortified foods! But if you don't believe me, go get a blood test and see if you are deficient in anything. It makes no difference if you are a meat eater or vegan. Learn more about nutrition and eat more varieties of plant foods or continue eating fortified processed foods or take your vitamins.
I fully believe that vegans can thrive without animal products, but studies have shown that there are some specific deficiencies that are more common in those who don't eat animal products. It's okay to acknowledge that.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »ElizabethOakes2 wrote: »If I'm not supposed to eat meat, why do I teeth evolutionarily designed for eating meat? ...
But our teeth are designed to eat meat AND veggies, not just one or the other. Humans are physically omnivores, though someone going on a vegan/vegetarian diet does fine as long as they get the nutrients from meat in another way. Most people I know that are vegan or vegetarian do so because of moral and ethical reasons, not because they believe it's the most appropriate diet for humans.
Saying vegans do fine as long as they get their nutrients in other ways is just like saying people who eat meat will do fine as long as they get their nutrients in other ways. I've never met someone who just ate Meat and Vegans don't just eat lettuce. This is a huge misconception people have that needs to be cleared up because just cutting meat out of your diet and not changing anything else will not make you deficient. Take a gander at all of those cereal boxes, protein supplements and processed food labels in your kitchen and you'll see where you really get all of your nutrients from that are fortified with B12, D, B, Iron, Calcium, etc? The fact is that we can get all of our nutrients from plants but since people are sold lies and don't eat healthy, most of us get them from fortified foods! But if you don't believe me, go get a blood test and see if you are deficient in anything. It makes no difference if you are a meat eater or vegan. Learn more about nutrition and eat more varieties of plant foods or continue eating fortified processed foods or take your vitamins.
I fully believe that vegans can thrive without animal products, but studies have shown that there are some specific deficiencies that are more common in those who don't eat animal products. It's okay to acknowledge that.
Well, being that the majority of processed foods in stores contain animal products and they do fortify them with these additional nutrients...I'll give you that much, but the confusion lies there. What I'm saying is that by you just eating animals has very little or nothing to do with you getting your B12, D, Calcium, Iron, etc nutrients. You are getting most of these nutrients from "fortified animal products" off the shelf. Obviously, Vegans will stop eating meat and dairy products but they are coming out with many more fortified products that are vegan too. So what it really comes down to for any consumer is to educate yourself and eat a variety of plant foods, keep eating fortified processed foods or just take vitamins.0 -
Dang!! Wish I hadn't read this... I don't know how i feel about it all since I just picked up 20 pounds of ground fresh venison at the processor station, and truthfully all i was thinking about as super low fat very high protein, and it is not fish for a change. Sorry not trying to offend just a Tennessee country boy raised poor so we only had meat from the woods and vegies right out of our garden. A very close friend of mine is actually a vegan and he seems pretty cool to me.. city boy but still cool!!! I just told him this past evening how I can understand how he is vegan and could actually get by on them myself. Counting calories and looking at nutrient content has been a huge eye opener for me. For now however I have a freezer loaded with a majestic buck that I must honor by not allowing his life to have passed in vain. I am very respectful to his sacrifice for my family's benefit. My dad had an iron rule that we were raised on " If you kill it you will eat it" .... after my BB gun experience I can tell you all this right now, toad frog does not taste good at all.
You can donate the meat if you want. I know there are some organizations that will accept donated game meat to ground up and send to homeless shelters. You'll have to look up and see if there's one in your area. Or maybe donate it directly to a shelter. That way, you can start down the path you want to go, but the meat doesn't go to waste.
OOPs sorry for projecting the wrong perception of my personal intent. Like I said very low fat very high protein!!
I simply understand my vegan friend much better now that i am looking at the calories and the nutrition of all foods.
Also just a point for reference he was ordered by his doctor to change his diet or eat some meat because he had become anemic or something like that... weak and getting sick all the time. He is a very good friend but he now eats some meat.. fish and LOL venison. He still eats mostly the way he used to except for that change.
I am not sure he was viewing being a vegan as an animal rights thing I think he was seeking the health benefits of it. I am a true believer in balance and moderation.. and funny thing is i also tend to gravitate towards kosher foods for example scaled fish over smooth skin ones, avoid bottom feeding creatures, avoid pork like the plague and things like that but it is not my religion just my common sense kicking in i think. I hope at least at 53 years old i still am able to learn change and adapt to a life style that is both healthy and happy. I am enjoying simply doing the math and learning which foods add up to a nutritional balance for me. Deer, fish, turkey breast, chicken breast and some beef will all remain a part of my diet as long as I am 100% in charge of me. (the day that drops to 99% I hope I'm buried the next day)0 -
Ordinarily, I think it behooves us to be courteous to one another, and that includes not pushing a particular subject when it is not well received.
But I am not a pacifist and if someone is not courteous and pushes their agenda when it is plainly not sought after, (this especially applies to ridiculous advertising calls) I will play with them. I have never had cause to play with a vegan, but playing along and with telephone advertisers is a lot of fun. One can get really crazy with them.0 -
I meant the teeth argument as a joke, peeps. Guess I probably should have put a winky face there.
I know all the arguments for and against eating meat. I've tried vegetarianism and veganism (Guess how I found out that I can't digest soy and am deadly allergic to palm nuts, like coconut?). I had to go back to eating meat in order to be healthy.
If you can eat veggie or vegan and be healthy and strong, more power to you! 0 -
We're talking militant vegans and no-one has mentioned Freelee or Durian Rider? Now there's some people I could never sit in a room with for more than 10 seconds.
I think people who are very evangelical seem to think they're the only ones who understand the meat industry. Well I have news, a lot of us know an awful lot and do think about the food with a face a lot. Eating meat doesn't make me devoid of ethics or brain cells and coming at me like it does only serves to hinder the cause really.0 -
VintageFeline wrote: »We're talking militant vegans and no-one has mentioned Freelee or Durian Rider? Now there's some people I could never sit in a room with for more than 10 seconds.
I think people who are very evangelical seem to think they're the only ones who understand the meat industry. Well I have news, a lot of us know an awful lot and do think about the food with a face a lot. Eating meat doesn't make me devoid of ethics or brain cells and coming at me like it does only serves to hinder the cause really.
I never clarified them as vegans, just crazy...0
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