The February 2016 Running Challenge
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Hey all, I haven't been keeping up. It's been a bad month. I've been struggling with my training plan then I switched up my training this month to get ready for a physical test for a job I wanted to apply for. I just found out I can't apply so I'm pretty bummed.
I'm going to take a few days to re-organize and figure out what my goals from here are so I'm out for the rest of the month. I'm still going to run but I'm not going to follow any training plan. I might even leave my Garmin home. I'll be back in March.0 -
02/02 8.00 mi
02/04 3.65 mi
02/07 6.43 mi
02/10 3.10 mi – Helping Homeless Animals Find “Rosier” Outcomes Virtual 5K
2/13 10.03 mi
2/16 3.00 mi
TOTAL 34.21 mi
GOAL 50.00 mi
Upcoming Races:
02/21 - Disney Princess Half Marathon
04/02 - Philadelphia Hot Chocolate 15K
04/09 - Yuengling Light Lager Jogger 5K
04/16 – River Horse 6K
05/01 - Blue Cross Broad Street Run (10 miles)
09/18 - Rock 'n' Roll Philadelphia Half Marathon0 -
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My friend sent me this Buzzfeed "article" today: 15 Charts That’ll Only Mean Something To People Who Love Running. It includes gems such as these:
and
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2/3 - 3 miles
2/6 - 4 miles - first ever beach run!
2/10 - 2 miles (actually, this was a brisk walk but I'm gonna count it!)
2/11 - 3.5 miles
2/14 - 2 miles
2/15 - 2 mile walk with the little dog (not counting this below)
2/16 - 2 miles
16.5 miles/ 30 mile goal for February
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@ddmom0811 now now they don't have wings.
But in this period there are spiders who weave webs and get carried by the wind on their webs. There are hundreds of them and their webs are almost invisible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai3gTAwssxQ
https://youtu.be/jESKFHRU_Hc?t=4m30s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballooning_(spider)
Pic related
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i got a spider web in my once, that sucker burned0
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Good morning running friends, another good run this morning. It feels so good to be getting back in shape. I still have a way to go to hit my goal, but I know I will make it. Hope everyone has a fantastic day.
Next race: 5K Shake your Shamrock March 5th0 -
@instantmartian - Cake lady is so preferable to the death breath / poo sandwich eaters I always seem to be next to.
Yes, she certainly is! Thankfully, it's been a long time since I've run next to someone who smelled like poo/butt/BO. (Watch this happen on my treadmill run on Thursday, now.)skippygirlsmom wrote: »@instantmartian yo-yo man - you are just killing me I want to run on the treadmill next to you so we can talk about everyone ha ha I ran last week on the TM that had a TV screen, just like home I was flipping on all the commercials. The gym I go to has a bunch of TVs across the front of the gym and I think there are 7 or 8 channels you can watch.
I would LOVE to have someone to talk to about all the thoughts that run through my head at the gym. As it is, now, I keep most of it to myself, post some of it on Facebook because I feel others just need to know some of these things (though, in reality, I'm sure no one cares), and some I accidentally (maybe not) blurt out loud.AdrianChr92 wrote: »I was attacked by hordes of flying spiders and saw 2 deer with white butts.
Spiders don't typically bother me, but hordes of flying spiders might be a different story. Yuck! Deer with white butts, however, are cool!5BeautifulDays wrote: »instantmartian wrote: »Cake lady is definitely a much better option to the person who used to come to my gym a few years ago - he smelled like tacos and would always plant himself on the treadmill next to me. Again, I like tacos, just not when I'm running. Then there is the guy who walks at a super-slow pace, but he walks to the front of the treadmill, then stops walking until it takes him to the back of the treadmill, then he walks to the front, and then stops until he's at the back, then forward, then back. I call him "yo-yo man." I had to keep myself from yelling at him a few times.
I have a guy my friend calls "Fred Flinstone". He actually looks a little like Fred, but most importantly, he puts the incline at some ridiculous angle, grabs onto the bars and stomps while shaking his sweaty head back and forth like some sort of wildebeest.
There really are a lot of characters at the gym--most of them I just really respect their dedication, but some really do give you pause, lol.
Fred Flintstone - that's a good one! Yo-yo Man actually looks a bit like Barney, now that I think of it.
I do, honestly, have a level of respect for everyone who takes the time to get themselves to the gym, even if they're on a stationary bike in jeans and work boots. They're there, and actually doing something, which is a lot more than most people could say. Still, I am and have always been a people watcher, and a critical one at that. I am not perfect, and I am sure I say things, do things, and look ways that people will and do judge me for, but I'm okay with that - everyone is entitled to their own opinions, especially if they're silent ones. I seriously cannot help but to silently judge people, though, especially when they do/say/wear weird things.0 -
Good morning running friends, another good run this morning. It feels so good to be getting back in shape. I still have a way to go to hit my goal, but I know I will make it. Hope everyone has a fantastic day.
Next race: 5K Shake your Shamrock March 5th
I think you will find that all of us have a way to go to hit our goals. My running goals are constantly changing or as soon as I hit one, I'm working towards the next. Best of luck to you, and congratulations on getting back into shape!0 -
@Elise4270 - Early on, most of my really big speed gains just came from building up my mileage and losing enough weight to drop my BMI from 38 to 23. I was finishing in the top 5% of races without speedwork from just focusing on total distance & weight (while running most of my miles 3-4 minutes/mile slower than my half marathon pace). Still, to get that last little push that has gotten me onto the podium at small races, and into the top 1% at the LV half and Disney full marathon, speedwork (about 20% of my mileage) has come in handy. I'm not sure what your goals are, but lots of comfortable long slow distance, and watching the diet can get you pretty far.
Thanks! Sound encouraging! Impressive work there
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@Elise - Injury recovery changes the picture. If you're still needing to baby that knee a little, I think you should run everything easy between now and March 20. Yes, do the long runs; but cut them short if the knee asks you to.
I ran my second half after recovering from a stress fracture. I ran everything easy, and got up to a distance of 10 miles a week before the half. I finished the half, and it remains the slowest half I ever ran; but at least I salvaged a half out of the non-refundable entry fee I paid for the associated marathon.
Top priority is taking care of that knee and letting it heal. You can't get to the finish line if you don't get to the start line.
I do planned on running the last of Feb easy, but honestly all of my runs are easy. I have an issue with a few nerves that are entrapped, makes running hard, sometimes painful. I'm going to go with all the miles I can do, slow and easy and work on eliminating nonnutritious foods.
My steroid shot is threatenting to wear off, and we are getting warm here- I'll be forced into slow steady miles any how.0 -
@kristinegift A friend sent that to me too. The washing one is definitely me right now!
February running challenge
2nd February - 40 mins cross-train
4th February - 3.30 miles
5th February - 35 mins cross-train
8th February - 3.20 miles
10th February - 3.14 miles (dreadmill)
11th February - 3.26 miles
12-14th February - away
15th February - 7.04 miles
16th February - 30 mins cross-train
17th February - 2.18 miles (dreadmill) + 15 mins cross-train
MTD - 22.12/50miles0 -
Date.................KM...................Total
2/7....................1.19.................1.19 (Run)
2/10..................1.85.................3.04 (Walk)
2/11..................1.88.................4.92 (Walk)
2/12..................8.8.................13.72 (Bird Count Exercise)
2/13..................4.2.................17.92 (Walk)
2/15..................5.27................23.19 (Run)
2/17..................5.32................28.51 (Walk)
This is first 5K I will be running, is there some days I should rest before the run?
First 5 K.................. 25th Feb
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instantmartian wrote: »Good morning running friends, another good run this morning. It feels so good to be getting back in shape. I still have a way to go to hit my goal, but I know I will make it. Hope everyone has a fantastic day.
Next race: 5K Shake your Shamrock March 5th
I think you will find that all of us have a way to go to hit our goals. My running goals are constantly changing or as soon as I hit one, I'm working towards the next. Best of luck to you, and congratulations on getting back into shape!
Thanks, yeah I know what you mean. My short term goals are always changing and getting closer to my long term goal.0 -
@instantmartian wow! I do not want to go to the gym!
We have lots of white but deer. I'm oaky with bugs/snakes.
I had to change bras as I got to the park the other day to run. So I stepped into the porta potty to change. Between the urinal and the hole, was a to-go plate from Denny's untouched, eggs, toast, hash browns, chicken fried steak and gravy.... It's at the skate park portion of the park, so I though some teens were behind it. @ceciliaslater you'll be running right past it mile ~24..8 on the A2A...
Yesterday in a field (same park) I saw a guy sunning in his black boxers. It was too cool to be sunning, and he wasnt in the public area of the park, like the equipment area... I thought maybe he was dead, but he had a pack under his head. I thought "more men should be out here sunning more often".
@kristinegift love the charts! (i gotta get online more often, mobile seem hit and miss).
@AdrianChr92 Spiders-That'll creep folks out .0 -
@kristinegift - Those charts seem pretty accurate!
@AdrianChr92 - And I thought swallowing gnats was annoying!!
Woo-hoo! Ran a new 5k PR again today, 31:45 which is a 36 second improvement over a couple weeks ago.
Today's run was a 5k LT run with 1k warmup, cooldown.
2/1 - 4 miles
2/2 - 4.3 miles
2/4 - 4 miles
2/6 - 11.1 miles
2/8 - 9.5 miles
2/10 - 4.5 miles
2/12 - 5.3 miles
2/14 - 9.2 miles
2/15 - 4 miles
2/16 - 4 miles
2/17 - 4.3 miles
64.2 of 100 miles
Upcoming races:
4/9 - Rock the Parkway half marathon (Kansas City, MO)
4/16 - Garmin Wickedly Fast half marathon (Olathe, KS)
4/23 - Race for Hope half marathon (North Kansas City, MO)
5/1 - Buffalo Bell Stampede half marathon (Leavenworth, KS)
5/14 - Running with the Cows half marathon (Bucyrus, KS)
6/2 - Hospital Hill 5k 7pm PRE-RUN (Kansas City, MO)
6/3 - Hospital Hill half marathon 7am RE-RUN (Kansas City, MO)
10/15 - Kansas City Marathon 26.2 (Kansas City, MO)
11/6 - Kansas half marathon (Lawrence, KS)
11/13 - Gobbler Grind half marathon (Overland Park, KS)
11/20 - Pilgrim Pacer half marathon (Lenexa, KS)0 -
2/01: 3 miles, easy, 8:36 pace + 45 min x-training + core
2/02: 5 miles, tempo, 8:22 pace + 40 min x-training
2/03: 5 miles, speedwork (4x800m at 5K pace) + 45 min strength training + core
2/04: Off, 45 min x-training
2/05: 4 miles, easy, 8:40 pace
2/06: 5 miles, 3 miles at race pace (averaged 7:43) with warm up/cool down + 55 min strength training + core
2/07: 8 miles, long and easy, 8:39 pace
2/08: 3 miles, easy, 8:40 pace + 45 min x-training + core
2/09: 5 miles, 6x2 minutes at 5K pace with 2 minutes recovery jog between plus warm up/cool down
2/10: 4 miles, easy, 8:54 pace + 45 min strength training + core
2/11: 1 mile, quick, 6:52 pace + 45 min x-training
2/12: 5 miles, easy, 8:45 pace
2/13: 5 miles, 1 mile/800m/2x400m at 5K pace with warm up/cool down + 55 min strength training
2/14: 9 miles, long and easy, 8:34 pace
2/15: 3.5 miles, easy, 8:46 pace + 25 min x-training
2/16: 5 miles, tempo, 8:11 pace
2/17: 6 miles, super easy, 8:57 pace + 45 min x-training + core
Total: 78.41 miles
Recap:
Today’s run was an easy 6 miles in the sun! The sidewalks were all super icy today; so bad in fact that I would have done this run on the treadmill, except the school gym isn’t open on wednesday mornings so I kind of had no choice. Kept things extra slow and shortened my stride a lot, so I managed not to slip at all!
I've been thinking a lot about @Stoshew71 post about training intensity and long runs. I've had a series of overtraining injuries in the past (tibial stress fracture, pulled hamstring, shin splints, cuboidal stress reaction, etc), I think because none of my training plans followed the 20/80 rule. Basically, your post has prompted me to rethink my entire training strategy and revamp my training plan. Thank you so much for posting such great advice!
General question (for the group): how does one determine what their "easy" pace actually is? I suspect I'm running my easy runs too fast, but haven't found very consistent information from googling....
Upcoming races:
2/20 - Mardi Gras Chaser (5K)
3/12 - Leprechaun Leap (5K)
3/20 - Excalibur 10 Miler
3/26 - Chicago Quarter Marathon
4/09 - Chi Town Half Marathon
5/28 - Soldier Field Run (10 miles)0 -
General question (for the group): how does one determine what their "easy" pace actually is? I suspect I'm running my easy runs too fast, but haven't found very consistent information from googling....
@ariceroni, I figure that out by singing to myself. If I can't sing a song without running out of breath while running, then I'm running too fast. After a while you get to learn what that effort feels like.
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I've been thinking a lot about @Stoshew71 post about training intensity and long runs. I've had a series of overtraining injuries in the past (tibial stress fracture, pulled hamstring, shin splints, cuboidal stress reaction, etc), I think because none of my training plans followed the 20/80 rule. Basically, your post has prompted me to rethink my entire training strategy and revamp my training plan. Thank you so much for posting such great advice!
General question (for the group): how does one determine what their "easy" pace actually is? I suspect I'm running my easy runs too fast, but haven't found very consistent information from googling....
Stan's post made me think too. I'll never have to use someone else's premade training plan.
The easy pace should be conversational. Not huffing and puffing. Everytime i hit a patch that feels "easy" i note my pace, which seems to be 10- 10:3.. It seem to vary depending on how rested i am. Some days no pace is easy and it all turns into a walk/ lame speed work exercise.
@7lenny7 I tried singing to myself yesterday, and all i could think about singing was " I'm a little tea pot short and stout..." I thought "well that does nothing for my self image" and abandoned the singing. If i take music, I just wanna dance...0 -
Date.................KM...................Total
2/7....................1.19.................1.19 (Run)
2/10..................1.85.................3.04 (Walk)
2/11..................1.88.................4.92 (Walk)
2/12..................8.8.................13.72 (Bird Count Exercise)
2/13..................4.2.................17.92 (Walk)
2/15..................5.27................23.19 (Run)
2/17..................5.32................28.51 (Walk)
This is first 5K I will be running, is there some days I should rest before the run?
First 5 K.................. 25th Feb
This is one of those scenarios where there are multiple answers with multiple levels of fitness. I never run the day before a race, infact I like 2 days rest before a race, extra sleep, lots of water and good food choices. I know there are others that are conditioned enough that have no problem with a pre-race run. So, best thing for you to do is base it on your personal experience with your body.
I can do a 5 or 10K no prior rest day (the race is just worked into my schedule), but a 15K or half, I would. When I first started a 5k was monumental.
Good luck on that race!0 -
@ariceroni I consider easy pace a pace that I don't need to focus too much on breathing and I can talk with someone without difficulties.0
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This video from Jack Daniels is all about Easy pace. You can sing, talk in a conversation with a running partner (or an imaginary one if no one is looking), recite your ABC's, the Pledge of Allegiance, The Our Father, The Hail Mary, Gettyburg Address, anything. If you can talk or sing in complete sentences without thinking about your breathing, then you are doing OK. If you can only get out 1 or 2 words before having to pause to breath, then you are going too fast. (especially if those 2 words are expletatives, then you are definetely going too fast).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veAQ73OJdwY 0 -
2/1 - Rest day. Semi-planned.
2/2 - Snow Day
2/3 - 4 miles on treadmill
2/4 - 5.1 miles on treadmill (Trek class). Sore knee this morning...hoping it is from shoveling and not running related. Didn't get worse when I ran, so I am going to cautiously push through.
2/5 - 4 miles on treadmill
2/6 - Life day...too busy to squeeze in a run :-(
2/7 - 5.4 windy miles, but warm for Feb.
2/8 - Another life day. Wife's mother in hospital not well, so she is out of town...gotta get kids to school, etc.
2/9 - 4 miles on treadmill. Convinced all three kids to go to the Y with me after dinner.
2/10 - 2/14 - Nothing.
2/15 - Again, 0.
2/16 - 4 miles on treadmill, hotter than blazes in the gym!
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"I ran a 10:15 pace but MFP only shows it as 11.5 minute pace, why is this?"
This has come up a couple of times recently on friend's MFP news feeds so I thought I'd post my explanation here.
First let's talk about METs. The amount of energy used performing an activity can be calculated using METs. MET is Metabolic Equivalent of Task, and is a ratio of the energy expenditure (calories burned) during a physical activity as compared to being at rest. If a MET value for an activity is 2, you're burning twice as many calories as if you would if you were sitting down doing nothing but existing (Sleeping, btw, has a MET value of 0.9). You can use MET values, combined with your weight and the duration of the activity to come up with calories burned with this equation:
Calories burned = (MET value) x (activity duration in minutes) x (weight in kg) x 0.0175 (this is a constant)
So if I run for 60 minutes, at a 11.5 minute pace (MET value of 9.0), and I weigh 100kg (220lb), then I burned:
Calories burned = (9.0) x (60 minutes) x (100 kg) x (0.0175), or 945 calories.
One KEY point is that this includes the calories you would have burned anyway. If you want to find out how many EXTRA calories you burned because you ran, you need to subtract 1.0 from the MET value, because
Extra Calories = Total Calories(MET value of activity) minus Calories I would have burned anyway (MET value of 1.0)
For our example
Extra Calories = (9.0 - 1.0) x (60 minutes) x (100kg) x (0.0175) = 840 calories
Researchers in lab coats and holding clip boards made the effort to actually figure out MET values for a wide variety of activities by hooking up people to sensors and gizmos and having them do lots of stuff. When they published these values, the running METs are show for 15 different discrete paces, or speeds. These paces range from a 4.3 minute mile to a 15 minute mile.
Let's talk about MFP now. MFP uses the published MET values which are tied to specific paces. Instead of using the pace you actually ran, MFP uses the next slower published pace. One would reasonably think that you could interpolate between two published paces and get a more accurate number for the pace you ran, but MFP doesn't do this.
The MET value for 11.5 min/mile is 9.0 while the MET value for 10 min/mile is 9.8, so if you run at 10:01, your MET value would likely be extremely close to 9.8, but MFP looks at the next slowest speed so it uses 9.0. This results in a reported calorie burn that is nearly 8% less than what it probably should be.
You can see the published MET values for running here:
https://sites.google.com/site/compendiumofphysicalactivities/Activity-Categories/running
The values for all activities are here:
https://sites.google.com/site/compendiumofphysicalactivities/Activity-Categories0 -
On the other hand, if the two words you get out without a pause are words like antidisestablishmentarianism or pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism, you might still be fine. At least where the running pace is concernedIf you can only get out 1 or 2 words before having to pause to breath, then you are going too fast. (especially if those 2 words are expletatives, then you are definetely going too fast).
On another note: my shirts arrived today. Woohoo! They fit nicely, and I love the color. Will have to go for a test run tonight.
I expected it to take much longer. Thanks again for the shipping, @Elise4270 !
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General question (for the group): how does one determine what their "easy" pace actually is? I suspect I'm running my easy runs too fast, but haven't found very consistent information from googling....
I started using the 80/20 rule right out of the book "80/20 Running". There is guidance on ways to figure out your lactate threshold and calculate your target training zones from there. Then I started training with a heart rate monitor. I was a-mazed at how far off of my target zone I had been training. It was very tough to slow down at first, but once I did the improvements came very quickly. Within a year, I was back to running my easy runs at the pace I had been before, only this time my heart rate was actually in its target zone. It really helped to improve my overall endurance and allowed me to run pretty big negative splits at my last marathon, which I personally feel is very important for a successful marathon. I rarely use a HRM anymore because I have a good idea of where I am within my target zones now based on perceived rate of exertion. Every so often I will take it along as a check and I have been pretty accurate. It almost becomes like muscle memory.0 -
1/31 Rest
2/1 6.25 @ 12.00 on the treadmill
2/2 3.5 (3 @ 11:50 and .5 walking) and strength training
2/3 Rest day
2/4 10.25 @ 11:46 on the treadmill.
2/5 Planned rest day--taking my daughter on her first college visit!
2/6 5 @ 10:35 on the treadmill
(25/25 for the week)
2/7 Rest
2/8 5 @ 11:23 on the treadmill. Knees were giving me a little trouble at the beginning but warmed up ok.
2/9 3.25 @ 10:46 on the treadmill and strength training
2/10 11 @ 12:00 on the treadmill. Dear goodness golly that was awful.
2/11 Rest
2/12 6.25 @ 11:23 on the treadmill.
2/13 Rest
(25.5/25 for the week)
2/14 No race day.
It was 7 degrees with a wind chill that made it feel like -5. I just couldn't do it. Last time I ran in temps like that I had painful lungs for days after, and I don't want to risk being ill or hurting next Sunday.
2/15 5 @ 12 ish on the treadmill-saurus in my basement since we're having another stinking snow day
2/16 5 @ 12 ish on the treadmill at home. My legs/ankles/whatever are not feeling great today
2/17 5 @ 11 on the treadmill at the gym and strength training.
2/18
2/19
2/20
(15/20 for the week)
Upcoming Races:
Feb. 21 Disney Princess Half Marathon, Orlando, FL
In spite of rice krispie knees (snap! crackle! pop!) and a head cold (not to mention staying up a good chunk of the night with a croupy little boy) I'm getting very excited about my trip to FL!! Before you know it, I will be a half-marathoner. That is an amazing thought to this woman who 18 months ago weighed nearly 300 pounds and couldn't walk around the block without wheezing. I am so grateful to have this second chance at living a full and healthy life, and I'm so grateful that running is part of it.
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@stoshew71 LOL on the expletives! I tend to use them a lot when I run. @ariceroni I agree with others though if you can chat, sing, curse or let your mind wander you are probably at your easy pace. My gage is if I'm not yelling at Skip out of breath "STOP TALKING TO ME!" then I'm doing an easy run.
@3dogsrunning sorry about the job! Regrouping is always a good thing, see you in March.
@kristinegift love the graphs, so spot on
@adrianchr92 watched the videos, no just no. When Skip and I trail run I send her first so she gets the webs in the face, parenting at it's finest.
@instantmartian and @5BeautifulDays I too have big respect for gym folks, especially treadmill folks. My favorite lady at the gym is older and has had work done obviously since her boobs can be used as a shelf. Anyway one day I was in the locker room and she was pulling her girls up and her top down so they would show more. I almost laughed myself silly every time she walked past my treadmill. We have talked a few times, very nice lady, but I still laugh.
@whatmerunning great job on the 5K PR
@7lenny7 so you didn't hurt my head enough in the newsfeed you had to post all your math here ha ha! Great explanation!
No running this morning, since the PT doesn't want me to run on PT days. I think he likes to be the one to give me pain.0 -
@ariceroni - That is a good question and I suspect @Stoshew71 will have a great answer. I can tell you how I eventually came across mine (in 3 different ways in fact).
Before doing any of these, you should know your resting HR. I always found the best way to get mine was to take it first thing when I woke up, before getting out of bed. I would either look at a clock for a full minute while manually taking my pulse, or better yet I began charging my phone within reach of my bed overnight and I would just grab my phone and use the stopwatch function in the clock app to get a 20 second reading and calculate from there. The hands down best way though, I bought one of these. I set it next to my bed and take it in the morning every now and then, particularly before any big efforts to make sure I am rested. Not everyone may want to spend a little money on something like this though when you can take your pulse for free. I just found this the easiest way to make sure I got it done and it was not that much money, really.
As for methods to determine my proper paces, the first was via this online tool. This will give you HR ranges for various paces, from which you can run at and begin figuring out what your pace at those efforts are. This is not the most accurate as it is pretty much a "one size fits all" sort of deal. However, I used these paces for my slow, easy miles as I built up a base all of last summer to run my first 3 marathons last fall. So it worked for me.
The second was was via the Jack Daniels tables, which you can download a version of in Excel format here. Just plug in your info, and your most recent PR time for a certain distance to get it going. I did find some variation in my particular case between short and long distances here, a pretty big on in fact. For almost everyone I have heard that use these however, these Jack Daniels tables are pretty damn spot on for most everyone.
The third method which I am currently using (and also validating against the Jack Daniels tables above) cost me some money and I'm not 100% sure I recommend it. I feel I got my money's worth, but also feel for many people they could do better if they offered a little more for the cost. I purchased a McMillan Pro membership for this site. As I recall, you can get some info for free, but the info I mainly use came with the Pro membership. You can get your estimated paces for various distances by entering a current PR time for one distance, and even get a target pace for a goal distance/pace you have in mind. For the added money however, you can get recommended training paces from your current times, and can also plug in resting HR and age to get your target HR ranges at those paces. I have found this to be the closest to reality for myself so far. Again, the Jack Daniels tables are spot on for me at 10k or shorter distances. Once I get into HM territory though things change for me and I find the McMillan numbers to be more in tune with reality.
Hope that helps, and if not, hope someone has something that helps.
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