High vs. Low carbs
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I never said that you said that.
I am just pointing out the flaws in the webMD article and am saying that LC is not any healthier than any other WOE.
They reduced their cardiovascular risk because they lose weight, not because they replaced carbs with anything.
Really? The reduced cardiovascular risk of the group consuming low carb compared to the group consuming high carb is because of weight loss? Last time I checked, when the results are different, the factor that is chosen to correlate with the different results needs to be different. The two groups experienced substantially identical weigh loss. So, no. Weight loss does not explain the better results achieved by those consuming a low carb diet.
Here's another study over a period of nearly 4 years, with the same results - including individuals who switched from high carb to low carb after the first 6 months so there are direct comparisons between the same individual consuming 20% carbohydrates and 55-65% carbohydrates.
"We have examined medical charts for episodes of cardiovascular disease beginning 3 months after the initiation of the diet therapy.
Among the 16 patients in the low-carbohydrate diet group (41 months observations time) and among the 7 controls that changed from the high-carbohydrate diet to the opposite (33 months observations time) – totalling 23 patients – 2 patients have suffered cardiovascular disease, stroke and heart failure respectively (8.5%. 95% confidence interval (CI 95%): 1.0–28.0). One patient without known cardiac disease has died suddenly. Autopsy showed no sign of coronary thrombosis, myocardial infarction or stroke. The cause of death unknown but assumed to be general atherosclerosis.
As for the 3 controls who switched diet at later dates, there has been no occurrence of cardiovascular disease.
Four patients (80%. CI 95%: 28.3–99.5) among the 5 controls that never attempted any change of diet have suffered several heart infarctions followed by heart failure. Two of them have died from their heart disease (p = 0.025. Fischer Exact)."
http://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-5-14
that is a study of people with type 2 diabetes...I assumed we were talking about people with no known medical condition...
ETA - I am not really understanding how they "tested" for cardiovascular disease? They took obese people and then reviewed their charts after the diet, but what if they had already done the damage through previous years of overeating and no exercise? They also say that two people on the low carb diet suffered heart disease...
Read the study. It answers your questions.
Basic math is your friend, by the way. Yes, two people on the low carb diet had cardiovascular incidents. That is two out of 23 - roughly 9%. Of the five who continued eating the high carb diet traditionally recommended to diabetics for the full length of the study, 4 had cardiovascular incidents - 80%.
No one has said that eating low carb will prevent 100% of cardiovascular incidents - but there is growing data suggesting that it does decreases the risk more than a high carb diet, in a population that is particularly at risk for heart disease (despite relatively dramatically increased fat consumption).0 -
I never said that you said that.
I am just pointing out the flaws in the webMD article and am saying that LC is not any healthier than any other WOE.
They reduced their cardiovascular risk because they lose weight, not because they replaced carbs with anything.
Really? The reduced cardiovascular risk of the group consuming low carb compared to the group consuming high carb is because of weight loss? Last time I checked, when the results are different, the factor that is chosen to correlate with the different results needs to be different. The two groups experienced substantially identical weigh loss. So, no. Weight loss does not explain the better results achieved by those consuming a low carb diet.
Here's another study over a period of nearly 4 years, with the same results - including individuals who switched from high carb to low carb after the first 6 months so there are direct comparisons between the same individual consuming 20% carbohydrates and 55-65% carbohydrates.
"We have examined medical charts for episodes of cardiovascular disease beginning 3 months after the initiation of the diet therapy.
Among the 16 patients in the low-carbohydrate diet group (41 months observations time) and among the 7 controls that changed from the high-carbohydrate diet to the opposite (33 months observations time) – totalling 23 patients – 2 patients have suffered cardiovascular disease, stroke and heart failure respectively (8.5%. 95% confidence interval (CI 95%): 1.0–28.0). One patient without known cardiac disease has died suddenly. Autopsy showed no sign of coronary thrombosis, myocardial infarction or stroke. The cause of death unknown but assumed to be general atherosclerosis.
As for the 3 controls who switched diet at later dates, there has been no occurrence of cardiovascular disease.
Four patients (80%. CI 95%: 28.3–99.5) among the 5 controls that never attempted any change of diet have suffered several heart infarctions followed by heart failure. Two of them have died from their heart disease (p = 0.025. Fischer Exact)."
http://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-5-14
that is a study of people with type 2 diabetes...I assumed we were talking about people with no known medical condition...
ETA - I am not really understanding how they "tested" for cardiovascular disease? They took obese people and then reviewed their charts after the diet, but what if they had already done the damage through previous years of overeating and no exercise? They also say that two people on the low carb diet suffered heart disease...
Read the study. It answers your questions.
Basic math is your friend, by the way. Yes, two people on the low carb diet had cardiovascular incidents. That is two out of 23 - roughly 9%. Of the five who continued eating the high carb diet traditionally recommended to diabetics for the full length of the study, 4 had cardiovascular incidents - 80%.
No one has said that eating low carb will prevent 100% of cardiovascular incidents - but there is growing data suggesting that it does decreases the risk more than a high carb diet, in a population that is particularly at risk for heart disease (despite relatively dramatically increased fat consumption).
this is all they say about it:
Cardiovascular disease
We have examined medical charts for episodes of cardiovascular disease beginning 3 months after the initiation of the diet therapy.
Among the 16 patients in the low-carbohydrate diet group (41 months observations time) and among the 7 controls that changed from the high-carbohydrate diet to the opposite (33 months observations time) – totalling 23 patients – 2 patients have suffered cardiovascular disease, stroke and heart failure respectively (8.5%. 95% confidence interval (CI 95%): 1.0–28.0). One patient without known cardiac disease has died suddenly. Autopsy showed no sign of coronary thrombosis, myocardial infarction or stroke. The cause of death unknown but assumed to be general atherosclerosis.
As for the 3 controls who switched diet at later dates, there has been no occurrence of cardiovascular disease.
Four patients (80%. CI 95%: 28.3–99.5) among the 5 controls that never attempted any change of diet have suffered several heart infarctions followed by heart failure. Two of them have died from their heart disease (p = 0.025. Fischer Exact).
Again, if they already had heart disease from bad diet and exercise, not really sure what that proves. I don't have time to read the whole thing right now..0 -
biggsterjackster wrote: »
I find that VERY hard to believe.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
Some varieties of chips and cookies are just as much of a carb source as they are fat. In some cases, cookies have more calories from carbs than fat.PlantBasedKnight wrote: »@Wetcoaster I agree. and I will clarify what I meant by carbs:
Carbs when I mention them are:
whole Fruits (not only juice or canned)
whole Vegetables (raw or steamed or lightly cooked)
whole Root vegetables (steamed or boiled) ****
Squashes (steamed boiled or roasted)
Whole grains (wheat, rice, corn, barley, oats etc..) boiled, or made into a dough. minimally processed ****
whole Legumes (cooked steamed or roasted)
non of the above should be prepared fried, with oil/butter, or any type of fat on earth.
**** This does not include in any case the following: chips, crisps, white flour products, supermarket cakes and cookies and biscuits as they are actually fats not carbs, pretzels and processed junk alike.
That God you're here man. Some people on MFP forums preach HFLC and have no idea what they're doing to themselves and their bodies. Many ppl associate carbs with ice cream, cookies, chips, and oils. You and I, as HCLF, put those foods in the fat category, not carbs. You're a blessing to see in this forum my friend, so many ppl are uniformed.
As I stated,"You (the person I was replying to) and I, as HCLF, put those foods in the fat category, not carbs." Cookies and chips are HIGH FAT foods for a person on a HCLF diet. They are not carb foods, they are fats foods.0 -
Some varieties of chips and cookies are just as much of a carb source as they are fat. In some cases, cookies have more calories from carbs than fat.ForecasterJason wrote: »
That God you're here man. Some people on MFP forums preach HFLC and have no idea what they're doing to themselves and their bodies. Many ppl associate carbs with ice cream, cookies, chips, and oils. You and I, as HCLF, put those foods in the fat category, not carbs. You're a blessing to see in this forum my friend, so many ppl are uniformed.
As I stated,"You (the person I was replying to) and I, as HCLF, put those foods in the fat category, not carbs." Cookies and chips are HIGH FAT foods for a person on a HCLF diet. They are not carb foods, they are fats foods.[/quote]
Gee, last time I checked, they contribute to both carb and fat macros, and there's this miraculous app that tracks both of them so you aren't forced to put them in a single category. (Except for oils, which no person with a smidgen of knowledge about foods would describe as a carb, since oils are pure fat.)
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Again, if they already had heart disease from bad diet and exercise, not really sure what that proves. I don't have time to read the whole thing right now..
There's your problem: I don't have time to read the whole thing right now. They excluded people with certain conditions -including heart conditions.
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CamilleRose237 wrote: »Since I started eating clean and watching macros (I don't count every meal), I have limited the carbs I eat in terms of pastas, whit breads, etc. I weight train every day and do cardio. However I've seen little change in my body fat on my stomach. Recently I've been eating a "carb load" in the morning with my usual breakfast and limiting them for the rest of the day and am seeing slight improvement. Any advice on eating higher or lower carbs to cut body fat?
OP I have no idea if you are still around or if you have run screaming for the hills (which would be understandable given the way this thread has gone). But to try to bring it back around to your specific question if you are still here, maybe you could start by providing us more details such as: height, weight, goal weight, and what your current calorie level is set at. Also, you said "I don't count every meal". What does that mean? Does that mean you don't track your calorie intake for every meal? Are you logging here on MFP? Are you using a food scale? Often people who aren't seeing the results they want are not logging accurately, it has less to do with the macro breakdown they are eating and more to do with the fact that they are eating more total calories than they think.
Also, you may find these two threads helpful based on your comments about wanting to reduce body fat and in particular in your stomach area:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/1161603/so-you-want-a-nice-stomach/p1
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10177803/recomposition-maintaining-weight-while-losing-fat/p1
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Some varieties of chips and cookies are just as much of a carb source as they are fat. In some cases, cookies have more calories from carbs than fat.ForecasterJason wrote: »
That God you're here man. Some people on MFP forums preach HFLC and have no idea what they're doing to themselves and their bodies. Many ppl associate carbs with ice cream, cookies, chips, and oils. You and I, as HCLF, put those foods in the fat category, not carbs. You're a blessing to see in this forum my friend, so many ppl are uniformed.
As I stated,"You (the person I was replying to) and I, as HCLF, put those foods in the fat category, not carbs." Cookies and chips are HIGH FAT foods for a person on a HCLF diet. They are not carb foods, they are fats foods.
Gee, last time I checked, they contribute to both carb and fat macros, and there's this miraculous app that tracks both of them so you aren't forced to put them in a single category. (Except for oils, which no person with a smidgen of knowledge about foods would describe as a carb, since oils are pure fat.)
[/quote]
Yes they contribute to both carbs and fat, but they are considered high fat foods to a person on a HCLF lifestyle.0 -
Mischievous_Rascal wrote: »
Wrong! Basics need to be applied individually to each person. If I netted 1500 calories a day I'd be a scarecrow, not to mention hormonally imbalanced. Please stop posting generic advice like this without knowing anything about the individual you're speaking to. It's dangerous.
Weight loss is calories in vs. calories out. You can't argue that.
I'm not arguing that at all. I am arguing your advice of a blanket 2000-500 equation applying to everyone. That's the dangerous advice you were spouting.
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CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »ok what i want to know is why someone who is saying carbs are the answer yet says that people should eat grains,veggies and fruits and then their diary contains little to no fruits and veggies on most days and most of it is processed carbs and cereal? sorry but I dont think that you should tell people to eat the "healthier" carbs and to avoid the junk food(processed carbs" yet you are doing just that. dont preach to the choir unless you have your sermon in check.
Explain why I eat unprocessed carbs and still weigh 153 lbs then. Carbs are carbs.
you dont eat many unprocessed carbs I see a lot of cereal,gummies, cookies,etc on your diary,yet you are saying those things will cause my high cholesterol and so on. I dont hardly eat those things like I said. I never said carbs werent carbs. you are the one who says that those things cause health issues and proceeded to promote fruits,veggies and grains yet your diary shows you dont eat much when it comes to fruits and veggies. more grains and processed food than anything. what I am saying is,dont promote one way of eating if you arent going to do it yourself. dont tell people to avoid thing because they will cause health issues yet you do it. as for your weight. you are obviously eating at maintenance and its not going to matter what you eat. if you havent gained or lost then you are in maintenance. its that easy to figure out.
It's hard to get the right kind of foods when your college dining hall doesn't always have the best options.
so you are saying that a college dining hall(your college at that) doesnt have fruits and veggies? if not I would probably go to the store and buy some fruits and veggies,or pack my own lunch. but thats just me.if you have a mini fridge it can be done(if you stay in the dorms).0 -
Yes they contribute to both carbs and fat, but they are considered high fat foods to a person on a HCLF lifestyle.
You consider them a high fat food. You are not all people on a HCLF lifestyle.
Stop representing your opinions as fact. No matter how you are eating, the foods you have mentioned are definitely high carb and may also be high fat. Except, of course, for the oil - which is entirely fat.
The character of food does not change based on the dietary goals of the person eating it.0 -
Yes they contribute to both carbs and fat, but they are considered high fat foods to a person on a HCLF lifestyle.
You consider them a high fat food. You are not all people on a HCLF lifestyle.
Stop representing your opinions as fact. No matter how you are eating, the foods you have mentioned are definitely high carb and may also be high fat. Except, of course, for the oil - which is entirely fat.
The character of food does not change based on the dietary goals of the person eating it.
If you're on a HCLF lifestyle, then you're probably hitting numbers like 75/15/10. To eat a couple cookies, say 4, and for that to have 15g of fat, that'd be a lot of fat for one snack on a HCLF lifestyle.0 -
Yes they contribute to both carbs and fat, but they are considered high fat foods to a person on a HCLF lifestyle.
You consider them a high fat food. You are not all people on a HCLF lifestyle.
Stop representing your opinions as fact. No matter how you are eating, the foods you have mentioned are definitely high carb and may also be high fat. Except, of course, for the oil - which is entirely fat.
The character of food does not change based on the dietary goals of the person eating it.
If you're on a HCLF lifestyle, then you're probably hitting numbers like 75/15/10. To eat a couple cookies, say 4, and for that to have 15g of fat, that'd be a lot of fat for one snack on a HCLF lifestyle.
That does not make them "fat foods".0 -
This thread is sad. I hope the OP starts another one if she still wants advice.0
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ClosetBayesian wrote: »Yes they contribute to both carbs and fat, but they are considered high fat foods to a person on a HCLF lifestyle.
You consider them a high fat food. You are not all people on a HCLF lifestyle.
Stop representing your opinions as fact. No matter how you are eating, the foods you have mentioned are definitely high carb and may also be high fat. Except, of course, for the oil - which is entirely fat.
The character of food does not change based on the dietary goals of the person eating it.
If you're on a HCLF lifestyle, then you're probably hitting numbers like 75/15/10. To eat a couple cookies, say 4, and for that to have 15g of fat, that'd be a lot of fat for one snack on a HCLF lifestyle.
That does not make them "fat foods".
Yes, that exactly makes them "Fatty foods" if they contain 15g of fat in one snack. People on a HCLF diet would eat only maybe 20-30g a day of fat. So that 15g of 4 cookies takes up a majority of their fats for the day; hence they are High Fat Foods.0 -
Low carb you will see the best results!
Stick with organic oatmeal, organic potatoes and low carb organic bread for the carbs and lots of protein and veggies!0
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