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Keto diet

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  • ksettle70ksettle70 Posts: 6Member Member Posts: 6Member Member
    Have you tried cashew milk or full fat Coconut milk from a can?

  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    I am curious about the effects of keto diets on cholesterol levels. Any insight or literature welcomed!

    As lemon says, people vary quite a bit on whether they react poorly to higher levels of sat fat. If you don't, just losing weight should lower cholesterol, although some people have poor levels regardless of diet and weight -- just unlucky.
    edited February 2016
  • ManiacalLaughManiacalLaugh Posts: 1,048Member Member Posts: 1,048Member Member
    I am curious about the effects of keto diets on cholesterol levels. Any insight or literature welcomed!

    I have a friend who went on the Keto diet last year. She is an example of what psulemon was talking about. She has a bad set of genes for the diet - and ended up with a cholesterol level of more than 300.

    Like I said though - that's not the diet itself. That's a likely combination of the diet with genetics. Even with the controversy of dietary fat and its relationship with cholesterol, her doctor pulled her off Keto immediately and put her on LFHC, with mostly greens and veggies. Her cholesterol is now normalizing, but she's still working on it.
    edited February 2016
  • Christine_72Christine_72 Posts: 16,074Member Member Posts: 16,074Member Member
    Clare0116 wrote: »
    I can't give up my 2x daily cuppa and have tried Arla Lactose Free whole milk' the lowest carb milk I can find. At only 2 teaspoons per cup, I'm hoping it won't stall my keto start? Ideas please ☕

    @Clare0116 I don't think 4 tsps of milk will stall you. You could try Heavy whipping cream, coconut milk or make a bullet proof coffee.
  • yarwellyarwell Posts: 10,573Member Member Posts: 10,573Member Member
    I am curious about the effects of keto diets on cholesterol levels. Any insight or literature welcomed!

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12097663 was a keto diet study without weight loss.

    Lower triglycerides (-33%) and a trend to higher HDL (+11.5%; P = 0.066) which is fairly typical of keto diets studies.

    Individual cholesterol responses :-
    F1.medium.gif
    edited February 2016
  • nvmomketonvmomketo Posts: 12,031Member Member Posts: 12,031Member Member
    I am curious about the effects of keto diets on cholesterol levels. Any insight or literature welcomed!

    Theses books discus cholesterol and the positive effect a very low carb high fat diet can have for most people's lipid panels:
    The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living
    Cholesterol Clarity
    The Great Cholesterol Con
    The Cholesterol Myth
  • senecarrsenecarr Posts: 5,377Member Member Posts: 5,377Member Member
    yarwell wrote: »
    I am curious about the effects of keto diets on cholesterol levels. Any insight or literature welcomed!

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12097663 was a keto diet study without weight loss.

    Lower triglycerides (-33%) and a trend to higher HDL (+11.5%; P = 0.066) which is fairly typical of keto diets studies.

    Individual cholesterol responses :-
    F1.medium.gif

    Protein percentage appeared to double. I wonder how much impact that had on HDL. Interesting that total and LDL remained neutral.
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 34,970Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 34,970Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    senecarr wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    I am curious about the effects of keto diets on cholesterol levels. Any insight or literature welcomed!

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12097663 was a keto diet study without weight loss.

    Lower triglycerides (-33%) and a trend to higher HDL (+11.5%; P = 0.066) which is fairly typical of keto diets studies.

    Individual cholesterol responses :-
    F1.medium.gif

    Protein percentage appeared to double. I wonder how much impact that had on HDL. Interesting that total and LDL remained neutral.

    One thing I would find interesting is if they would provide similar nutrition intervention for the control group. Meaning, that they maintain their macronutrients but improved the quality of food. Because with keto, their diet was very high heavy in MUFA and PUFAs.

    Oh and funded by Atkins, lol.
  • snikkinssnikkins Posts: 1,282Member Member Posts: 1,282Member Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    senecarr wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    I am curious about the effects of keto diets on cholesterol levels. Any insight or literature welcomed!

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12097663 was a keto diet study without weight loss.

    Lower triglycerides (-33%) and a trend to higher HDL (+11.5%; P = 0.066) which is fairly typical of keto diets studies.

    Individual cholesterol responses :-
    F1.medium.gif

    Protein percentage appeared to double. I wonder how much impact that had on HDL. Interesting that total and LDL remained neutral.

    One thing I would find interesting is if they would provide similar nutrition intervention for the control group. Meaning, that they maintain their macronutrients but improved the quality of food. Because with keto, their diet was very high heavy in MUFA and PUFAs.

    Oh and funded by Atkins, lol.

    I hate when studies get clearly biased by the people paying for them. People walk away from it assuming all research is biased and can be dismissed. /rant
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 34,970Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 34,970Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    snikkins wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    senecarr wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    I am curious about the effects of keto diets on cholesterol levels. Any insight or literature welcomed!

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12097663 was a keto diet study without weight loss.

    Lower triglycerides (-33%) and a trend to higher HDL (+11.5%; P = 0.066) which is fairly typical of keto diets studies.

    Individual cholesterol responses :-
    F1.medium.gif

    Protein percentage appeared to double. I wonder how much impact that had on HDL. Interesting that total and LDL remained neutral.

    One thing I would find interesting is if they would provide similar nutrition intervention for the control group. Meaning, that they maintain their macronutrients but improved the quality of food. Because with keto, their diet was very high heavy in MUFA and PUFAs.

    Oh and funded by Atkins, lol.

    I hate when studies get clearly biased by the people paying for them. People walk away from it assuming all research is biased and can be dismissed. /rant

    Personally, even if it was funded by atkins but was designed a bit better, I would be ok. And maybe I didn't see it, but if we are going to compare two diets, we should have similar nutritional standards. Having one group follow a very nutrient dense diet vs another with no control on the quality of food is a bit battling and makes me wonder how this would compare if it looked at keto vs vegan or even Mediterranean.
  • snikkinssnikkins Posts: 1,282Member Member Posts: 1,282Member Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    snikkins wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    senecarr wrote: »
    yarwell wrote: »
    I am curious about the effects of keto diets on cholesterol levels. Any insight or literature welcomed!

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12097663 was a keto diet study without weight loss.

    Lower triglycerides (-33%) and a trend to higher HDL (+11.5%; P = 0.066) which is fairly typical of keto diets studies.

    Individual cholesterol responses :-
    F1.medium.gif

    Protein percentage appeared to double. I wonder how much impact that had on HDL. Interesting that total and LDL remained neutral.

    One thing I would find interesting is if they would provide similar nutrition intervention for the control group. Meaning, that they maintain their macronutrients but improved the quality of food. Because with keto, their diet was very high heavy in MUFA and PUFAs.

    Oh and funded by Atkins, lol.

    I hate when studies get clearly biased by the people paying for them. People walk away from it assuming all research is biased and can be dismissed. /rant

    Personally, even if it was funded by atkins but was designed a bit better, I would be ok. And maybe I didn't see it, but if we are going to compare two diets, we should have similar nutritional standards. Having one group follow a very nutrient dense diet vs another with no control on the quality of food is a bit battling and makes me wonder how this would compare if it looked at keto vs vegan or even Mediterranean.

    Exactly. It being funded by Atkins doesn't make it inherently biased. Setting the study up to potentially benefit the Atkins diet does.
  • yarwellyarwell Posts: 10,573Member Member Posts: 10,573Member Member
    senecarr wrote: »
    Protein percentage appeared to double. I wonder how much impact that had on HDL. Interesting that total and LDL remained neutral.

    They didn't do that so we don't know, but it is routine for low carbohydrate diet studies to show reduced triglycerides and increased HDL.

    Plenty of reading linked from http://www.ketotic.org/2013/09/the-ketogenic-diet-reverses-indicators.html
  • yarwellyarwell Posts: 10,573Member Member Posts: 10,573Member Member
    psuLemon wrote: »
    Oh and funded by Atkins, lol.

    So what difference exactly would that have made ? Did they fabricate the results to satisfy the funder ? Would government funding be free of potential bias ?

    We've read the shirtless playbook already, if you have studies that show a ketogenic diet has a detrimental effect on blood lipids that would help answer the question then we would like to see them.

    I did not post this study to compare anything but merely to answer the question about what a ketogenic diet does to blood lipids in the absence of weight loss. I would have equally happy if there was no control but then you would be harping on about it not being an RCT.
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 34,970Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 34,970Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    yarwell wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    Oh and funded by Atkins, lol.

    So what difference exactly would that have made ? Did they fabricate the results to satisfy the funder ? Would government funding be free of potential bias ?

    We've read the shirtless playbook already, if you have studies that show a ketogenic diet has a detrimental effect on blood lipids that would help answer the question then we would like to see them.

    I did not post this study to compare anything but merely to answer the question about what a ketogenic diet does to blood lipids in the absence of weight loss. I would have equally happy if there was no control but then you would be harping on about it not being an RCT.

    First question - if you are going to make that argument that people can stay unbiased based on funding source, then I am fine with it. But then when it needs to be consistent since two weeks ago, you talked about a bias when there was no long term difference in diabetes treats. And its further no different than when you link tons of LCHF Kevin Hall studies that show benefit in real life application, but when I post the newest KH study, it's now considered half baked.


    Second, lets not be obtuse here. Any diet that is highly focused on quality of food is going to be beneficial. Not arguing the fact that Keto produced these kinds of results. It's pretty well known that diets high in unsaturated fats helps reduce cholesterol levels.. why do you think the Mediterranean diet is so beneficial.

    edit - one thing I would point out, that the average person who implements LCHF or Keto does not follow the parameters of this study. Most I have seen have diets very high in saturated fats (bullet proof coffee, heavy whipping creams, etc...).
    edited February 2016
  • QuavercatQuavercat Posts: 6Member Member Posts: 6Member Member
    Morning Everyone,
    I have browsed these comments with great interest. I have begun to use the Keto plan, not beause I want to lose weight, but because I am living with cancer. Carbohydrates of any sort are converted to glucose. Cancer thrives on glucose, so by starving them of it one hopes to limit their ability to proliferate. With limited carbs the body goes into ketosis and uses the fat for the energy it needs. SInce cancer cells cannot create energy from fat the theory is that they canot grow. It seems to be very useful for those with brain cancer, so why not other forms of cancer.

    My difficulty in using MFP is setting my personal macros. There is no precision here. I have to chose the closest percentage rather than the actual percentge. When entering my foods. I find the system very unhelpful because so often I cannot enter the type of units accurately. I do not find having to say how many 1gram units I have used reliable. Butter goes AWOL doing this! I Want to enter the number of grams I have weighed out, not the number of servings! It is all very 'general'. Sometimes I find bizarre readings for things like cucumber. Trying to create a recipe from raw ingredients so that I can log the meal made from this recipe is also very limited. I cannot specify the units precisely. Neither can I specify servings according to those units. In tracking what I eat, there needs to be more precision at this stage.
    Out of interest, Is there a way of importing a recipe directly from the internet? I'd value your tips as well as any exchange from those of you using Keto for health reasons, rather than weight loss.
  • Sued0nimSued0nim Posts: 17,504Member Member Posts: 17,504Member Member
    Quavercat wrote: »
    Morning Everyone,
    I have browsed these comments with great interest. I have begun to use the Keto plan, not beause I want to lose weight, but because I am living with cancer. Carbohydrates of any sort are converted to glucose. Cancer thrives on glucose, so by starving them of it one hopes to limit their ability to proliferate. With limited carbs the body goes into ketosis and uses the fat for the energy it needs. SInce cancer cells cannot create energy from fat the theory is that they canot grow. It seems to be very useful for those with brain cancer, so why not other forms of cancer.

    My difficulty in using MFP is setting my personal macros. There is no precision here. I have to chose the closest percentage rather than the actual percentge. When entering my foods. I find the system very unhelpful because so often I cannot enter the type of units accurately. I do not find having to say how many 1gram units I have used reliable. Butter goes AWOL doing this! I Want to enter the number of grams I have weighed out, not the number of servings! It is all very 'general'. Sometimes I find bizarre readings for things like cucumber. Trying to create a recipe from raw ingredients so that I can log the meal made from this recipe is also very limited. I cannot specify the units precisely. Neither can I specify servings according to those units. In tracking what I eat, there needs to be more precision at this stage.
    Out of interest, Is there a way of importing a recipe directly from the internet? I'd value your tips as well as any exchange from those of you using Keto for health reasons, rather than weight loss.

    Hi Quavercat

    I'm sorry to hear of your diagnosis but have been interested in the research regarding ketogenic diet in cancer, there is certainly a lot of promising trials and room for much more research so I wish you luck

    In terms of using MFP to monitor your intake

    1) I believe in the Premium version you can set macros by grams
    2) the type of unit you can enter depends on the food entry you choose, there are many incorrect ones on MFP. I would recommend that you either
    a) continue to look until you find an appropriate entry that does have grams entry (a lot do) but double check against pack and other nutritional calorie sites
    b) enter your own foods and only use your recent / frequent list - you can add your name to the entry so that you are clear this is your personal entry

    The recipe builder in the App is more responsive but you do have to search for each individual ingredient and select the correct one and repeat for each ingredient
    Then weigh the final cooked dish and enter as either grams / 100g so that when you eat that recipe you can enter the exact number of grams you have used

    Yes you can import by entering the recipe URL into the recipe builder - but again please do check ingredient by ingredient, checking nutritional guidelines and quantity
    - again editing in the app is much easier - it is really only onerous the first time

    I have to say that there are lots and lots of incorrect entries in the MFP database but with care you can use it to monitor your intake .. and really despite the glitches and issues I haven't yet found a better food entry system (though I keep looking)

    Good luck
  • senecarrsenecarr Posts: 5,377Member Member Posts: 5,377Member Member
    Quavercat wrote: »
    Morning Everyone,
    I have browsed these comments with great interest. I have begun to use the Keto plan, not beause I want to lose weight, but because I am living with cancer. Carbohydrates of any sort are converted to glucose. Cancer thrives on glucose, so by starving them of it one hopes to limit their ability to proliferate. With limited carbs the body goes into ketosis and uses the fat for the energy it needs. SInce cancer cells cannot create energy from fat the theory is that they canot grow. It seems to be very useful for those with brain cancer, so why not other forms of cancer.

    My difficulty in using MFP is setting my personal macros. There is no precision here. I have to chose the closest percentage rather than the actual percentge. When entering my foods. I find the system very unhelpful because so often I cannot enter the type of units accurately. I do not find having to say how many 1gram units I have used reliable. Butter goes AWOL doing this! I Want to enter the number of grams I have weighed out, not the number of servings! It is all very 'general'. Sometimes I find bizarre readings for things like cucumber. Trying to create a recipe from raw ingredients so that I can log the meal made from this recipe is also very limited. I cannot specify the units precisely. Neither can I specify servings according to those units. In tracking what I eat, there needs to be more precision at this stage.
    Out of interest, Is there a way of importing a recipe directly from the internet? I'd value your tips as well as any exchange from those of you using Keto for health reasons, rather than weight loss.

    Has any physician, particularly one that is actually a researcher in that area, actually recommended a ketogenic diet for your specific type of cancer?

    Mice models have been showing that the idea of using ketogenic diets to cut out and limit glucose (which you can't truly do, you'll always have glucose in your body) just lead to fat adapted cancer cells.

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/ketogenic-diets-for-cancer-hype-versus-science/
  • QuavercatQuavercat Posts: 6Member Member Posts: 6Member Member
    Thanks for this. No I haven't discussed this with a physician yet - I am not aware that oncologists study nutrition!!!! I do have an appointment with the Nutrition Doctor soon, so I will be able to to get some further insights. Most of my knowledge and understanding comes from researching Pubmed articles.
    This is a very useful website with well researched information: http://www.canceractive.com/cancer-active-page-link.aspx?n=3117 This is also a helpful resource: http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/cancer-treatments.html
    Some schools suggest that the Rainbow diet is more effective. Rest assured, I am not interested in ALTERNATIVES to cancer treatment, but ways of eating that help my body heal the immune system and keep it doing what it should do - find and destroy rogue cells. What is certain is that sugar feeds cancer cells, so even a basic low carb diet ought to help. However as a friend said to me recently, carbohydrates are still carbohydrates whether refined or not, and the body still uses them to produce glucose! What cancer cells go for next is the glutamine produced from protein digestion. So maintaining low levels of protein is also important. I guess this is why a lot of cancer dieticians recommend the vegetarian approach. It is a complicated field, and I suppose at the end of the day we must find the right balance for ourselves. How well we feel is a good guide. Currently I feel extremely well, better than ever!
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Posts: 34,970Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator Posts: 34,970Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium MFP Moderator
    Quavercat wrote: »
    Thanks for this. No I haven't discussed this with a physician yet - I am not aware that oncologists study nutrition!!!! I do have an appointment with the Nutrition Doctor soon, so I will be able to to get some further insights. Most of my knowledge and understanding comes from researching Pubmed articles.
    This is a very useful website with well researched information: http://www.canceractive.com/cancer-active-page-link.aspx?n=3117 This is also a helpful resource: http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/cancer-treatments.html
    Some schools suggest that the Rainbow diet is more effective. Rest assured, I am not interested in ALTERNATIVES to cancer treatment, but ways of eating that help my body heal the immune system and keep it doing what it should do - find and destroy rogue cells. What is certain is that sugar feeds cancer cells, so even a basic low carb diet ought to help. However as a friend said to me recently, carbohydrates are still carbohydrates whether refined or not, and the body still uses them to produce glucose! What cancer cells go for next is the glutamine produced from protein digestion. So maintaining low levels of protein is also important. I guess this is why a lot of cancer dieticians recommend the vegetarian approach. It is a complicated field, and I suppose at the end of the day we must find the right balance for ourselves. How well we feel is a good guide. Currently I feel extremely well, better than ever!

    Your body runs on glucose. It will still create that even on a Keto diet.


    BTW, you will find similar links for cancer prevents with Vegan/Vegetarians (high fiber/nutrient dense) and the Mediterranean Diet (high unsaturated fats, high fiber, nutrient dense). So in the end, if you going to do keto, do high fiber, high unsaturated fats as well.

    At the end of the day, we all wish you the best.
  • senecarrsenecarr Posts: 5,377Member Member Posts: 5,377Member Member
    Quavercat wrote: »
    Thanks for this. No I haven't discussed this with a physician yet - I am not aware that oncologists study nutrition!!!! I do have an appointment with the Nutrition Doctor soon, so I will be able to to get some further insights. Most of my knowledge and understanding comes from researching Pubmed articles.
    This is a very useful website with well researched information: http://www.canceractive.com/cancer-active-page-link.aspx?n=3117 This is also a helpful resource: http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/cancer-treatments.html
    Some schools suggest that the Rainbow diet is more effective. Rest assured, I am not interested in ALTERNATIVES to cancer treatment, but ways of eating that help my body heal the immune system and keep it doing what it should do - find and destroy rogue cells. What is certain is that sugar feeds cancer cells, so even a basic low carb diet ought to help. However as a friend said to me recently, carbohydrates are still carbohydrates whether refined or not, and the body still uses them to produce glucose! What cancer cells go for next is the glutamine produced from protein digestion. So maintaining low levels of protein is also important. I guess this is why a lot of cancer dieticians recommend the vegetarian approach. It is a complicated field, and I suppose at the end of the day we must find the right balance for ourselves. How well we feel is a good guide. Currently I feel extremely well, better than ever!

    Cancer cells aren't one monolithic thing. They don't all have the same metabolic preferences.
    The idea behind ketogenic diets for cancer came from brain cancer specifically because brain cells tend to need to use glucose, lactic acid, or ketones for all energy as nothing else can fit between the tight synaptic gaps. That idea doesn't extend to most other body cells, which means it wouldn't apply to cancer.

    Preferring glucose followed by glutamine would probably describe 90% of your non-nervous system cells, healthy or otherwise.
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