Frustrated with caloric burn calculations.
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TamzFit777 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »TamzFit777 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »TamzFit777 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »TamzFit777 wrote: »That is if it is true, now you got me doubting what I learned in personal trainers courses, so Ill have to do more research, but then, how do I know whats legit information and what isnt?
So presumably on your course they taught you how to evaluate sources and identify how to extract information from them?
Don't your textbooks talk about the differing training effects of different modes of training and how a range of modalities bring wider benefit, rather than focusing on one piece of data that has limited utility, and high error potential?
Whilst true HIIT has considerable benefit the net effect on fuel sourcing and gross expenditure is negligible in most circumstances. That's fairly easily discernible following a critical review of the available literature.
Of course they did, but for this topic we are discussing HIIT and Tabata. HIIT was one of many exercises we were taught and also did in practice to show what it really actually was.
So I'm confused. You've got text books, yet ask the question here?
I'd also observed that HIIT is a protocol, not an exercise.
My question was about a 40lb load on a sled, and about Tabata calories burned per minute, because websites claim 15cals, and even 20cals for kettlebells swings per minute. The textbooks dont specify number of calories burned because so many other variables factor in, they are more focused on what exercise works what muscle, terms such as cardiorespiratory capacity, muscular capacity, power, strength, body composition, VO2 max, injuries, nutrition ect. The tabata was taught as a higher caloric burn than steady state cardio, and then we went to the gym and did it.
So I'm still surprised that training as a PT didn't encompass how to work out calorie expenditure from first principles.
Not specifically, I'm a level 2 PT with some CECs, I'm still learning. For more info, I have to pay more money for more courses and I dont have the money.
OK
So talking purely about your sled question, the main consideration is total distance, not your pace. Personally, at 160lbs, I burn c100 Cal's per mile running c50 Cal's walking.
You'll be lighter than me, so burn a bit less.
Don't get worked up about covering it in an interval fashion, the effect is negligible.0 -
TamzFit777 wrote: »Ok as an MFP rule I would suggest
Enter 50-75% of the closest approximation to your activity
So running
Or calisthenics
Monitor your weight over 6-8 weeks, if you lose more than you expected, eat back a higher percentage
Rinse and repeat
It's all just estimates
I've lost 7lbs since I got here. I do (im scared to call it "Tabata") 2x week, and 3 x strength training with calorie counting. (although 10 days ago i ate like 2800 calories)
7lbs over what time frame
Wait until you've got 6-8 weeks data, average loss over that time and adjust
I think you're making it all too complicated
It's fairly easy as a process0 -
TamzFit777 wrote: »Ok as an MFP rule I would suggest
Enter 50-75% of the closest approximation to your activity
So running
Or calisthenics
Monitor your weight over 6-8 weeks, if you lose more than you expected, eat back a higher percentage
Rinse and repeat
It's all just estimates
I've lost 7lbs since I got here. I do (im scared to call it "Tabata") 2x week, and 3 x strength training with calorie counting. (although 10 days ago i ate like 2800 calories)
7lbs over what time frame
Wait until you've got 6-8 weeks data, average loss over that time and adjust
I think you're making it all too complicated
It's fairly easy as a process
Maybe I am, Im a bit of a perfectionist, My goal is specific. I want to weigh 140lbs, 25% fat. So I want to make sure im building muscle and not just losing fat.
I started here on Feb 10th. My goal is 0.5 lbs a week. At the gym I initially gained 4lbs which prompted me to come to MFP. Since then, I weigh in on a tanita (body composition) scale at the gym, My body fat has lowered, my muscle mass has increased(only slightly) but my strength has increased quite favorably. I know 7lbs is a lot for 2 weeks but I think some of that was water retention.0 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »TamzFit777 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »TamzFit777 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »TamzFit777 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »TamzFit777 wrote: »That is if it is true, now you got me doubting what I learned in personal trainers courses, so Ill have to do more research, but then, how do I know whats legit information and what isnt?
So presumably on your course they taught you how to evaluate sources and identify how to extract information from them?
Don't your textbooks talk about the differing training effects of different modes of training and how a range of modalities bring wider benefit, rather than focusing on one piece of data that has limited utility, and high error potential?
Whilst true HIIT has considerable benefit the net effect on fuel sourcing and gross expenditure is negligible in most circumstances. That's fairly easily discernible following a critical review of the available literature.
Of course they did, but for this topic we are discussing HIIT and Tabata. HIIT was one of many exercises we were taught and also did in practice to show what it really actually was.
So I'm confused. You've got text books, yet ask the question here?
I'd also observed that HIIT is a protocol, not an exercise.
My question was about a 40lb load on a sled, and about Tabata calories burned per minute, because websites claim 15cals, and even 20cals for kettlebells swings per minute. The textbooks dont specify number of calories burned because so many other variables factor in, they are more focused on what exercise works what muscle, terms such as cardiorespiratory capacity, muscular capacity, power, strength, body composition, VO2 max, injuries, nutrition ect. The tabata was taught as a higher caloric burn than steady state cardio, and then we went to the gym and did it.
So I'm still surprised that training as a PT didn't encompass how to work out calorie expenditure from first principles.
Not specifically, I'm a level 2 PT with some CECs, I'm still learning. For more info, I have to pay more money for more courses and I dont have the money.
OK
So talking purely about your sled question, the main consideration is total distance, not your pace. Personally, at 160lbs, I burn c100 Cal's per mile running c50 Cal's walking.
You'll be lighter than me, so burn a bit less.
Don't get worked up about covering it in an interval fashion, the effect is negligible.
Ok I have no idea how big the school soccer field is. But thank you, I can work with that answer.0 -
TamzFit777 wrote: »TamzFit777 wrote: »Ok as an MFP rule I would suggest
Enter 50-75% of the closest approximation to your activity
So running
Or calisthenics
Monitor your weight over 6-8 weeks, if you lose more than you expected, eat back a higher percentage
Rinse and repeat
It's all just estimates
I've lost 7lbs since I got here. I do (im scared to call it "Tabata") 2x week, and 3 x strength training with calorie counting. (although 10 days ago i ate like 2800 calories)
7lbs over what time frame
Wait until you've got 6-8 weeks data, average loss over that time and adjust
I think you're making it all too complicated
It's fairly easy as a process
Maybe I am, Im a bit of a perfectionist, My goal is specific. I want to weigh 140lbs, 25% fat. So I want to make sure im building muscle and not just losing fat.
I started here on Feb 10th. My goal is 0.5 lbs a week. At the gym I initially gained 4lbs which prompted me to come to MFP. Since then, I weigh in on a tanita (body composition) scale at the gym, My body fat has lowered, my muscle mass has increased(only slightly) but my strength has increased quite favorably. I know 7lbs is a lot for 2 weeks but I think some of that was water retention.
Since Feb 10th you have not gained appreciable muscle mass in a defecit
The tanita scale doesn't give an accurate BF reading ..it would be OK for monitoring progress but over months not 16 days
7lbs weight loss in 2 weeks will be a large proportion water weight, less food in digestive system as you said
Just keep going
Follow a progressive resistance programme and eat sufficient protein (0.64-0.8g per lb of bodyweight minimum)
Monitor and adjust based on what your body is doing over time
0 -
TamzFit777 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »TamzFit777 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »TamzFit777 wrote: »That is if it is true, now you got me doubting what I learned in personal trainers courses, so Ill have to do more research, but then, how do I know whats legit information and what isnt?
So presumably on your course they taught you how to evaluate sources and identify how to extract information from them?
Don't your textbooks talk about the differing training effects of different modes of training and how a range of modalities bring wider benefit, rather than focusing on one piece of data that has limited utility, and high error potential?
Whilst true HIIT has considerable benefit the net effect on fuel sourcing and gross expenditure is negligible in most circumstances. That's fairly easily discernible following a critical review of the available literature.
Of course they did, but for this topic we are discussing HIIT and Tabata. HIIT was one of many exercises we were taught and also did in practice to show what it really actually was.
So I'm confused. You've got text books, yet ask the question here?
I'd also observed that HIIT is a protocol, not an exercise.
My question was about a 40lb load on a sled, and about Tabata calories burned per minute, because websites claim 15cals, and even 20cals for kettlebells swings per minute. The textbooks dont specify number of calories burned because so many other variables factor in, they are more focused on what exercise works what muscle, terms such as cardiorespiratory capacity, muscular capacity, power, strength, body composition, VO2 max, injuries, nutrition ect. The tabata was taught as a higher caloric burn than steady state cardio, and then we went to the gym and did it.
websites can claim what they want,doesnt make it true. when I was over 200lbs and doing kettlebell workouts I was not burning 15 or 20 cal/minute and that was working hard enough I was out of breath and feeling like I was going to puke. now at 169 lbs I still dont burn that much per minute. its actually even a little less because I weigh less. The most I have ever burned with any exercise even when I was over 200lbs was 10 cal/minute. now its more like 5-7 for the same exercises at a lower weight.even lower if Im not putting all my effort in. now maybe if I had a lot of muscle I might burn 11 or maybe 12 if that but somehow I doubt that would happen.0 -
There is no good, reliable way to measure calorie burns for these types of workouts.
IMO, when using RPE, go by the following (and only count work intervals, NOT rest intervals):
moderate intensity - 7 cals per minute
can speak in broken sentences, can sustain the effort for longer periods of time
high intensity - 10 cals per minute
can speak a couple of words at a time, sustainable for short periods of time (i.e. 2-3 minutes)
maximal intensity - 12 cals per minute
can't speak, can only sustain effort for very short periods of time (i.e. up to 30 seconds)0 -
It's all an estimate, and you don't ever want to overestimate calorie burn since it will ultimately affect your weight loss.
I use 12 calories per working minute for a CrossFit WOD. I don't count strength training or the warmup - only working minutes. Then, I round down. If I get 232, I might log 200.
It's all (including food) an estimate anyway.0 -
@TamzFit777
I found the below on MET value, though I'd suggest double checking the numbers:
sports rope jumping, fast pace, 120-160 skips/min 12.3
sports rope jumping, moderate pace, 100-120 skips/min, general, 2 foot skip, plain bounce 11.8
sports rope jumping, slow pace, < 100 skips/min, 2 foot skip, rhythm bounce 8.8
The last number is the MET value. From there calculate MET minutes, to include your weight.
cooperinstitute.org/2012/04/met-minutes-a-simple-common-value-to-track-exercise-progress/
That link has a formula, and you can check with the below calculator as well.
lamb.cc/calories-burned-calculator/
The above links should get you in a ballpark range for the rope jumping. I can't verify accuracy, but if you cross check other sources you can often find studies on some pages/calculators that verify where they got the formula's from.
As for the running, I am in general agreement with what @MeanderingMammal stated for calorie burn. I think the general formula he is using is at the bottom of this web page below:
runnersworld.com/weight-loss/how-many-calories-are-you-really-burning
The only thing I would add on the running intervals is whatever effort the sled created in extra drag. Only you know that, but the below calculator might give you an idea if you could compare it to running up a grade.
exrx.net/Calculators/WalkRunMETs.html
And even though I don't know your weight, I still maintain that unless you are fairly small, 10 calories a minute is not that hard, and 15 per minute isn't out of the question for many unless you are that fairly small person.
At 180 pounds, my warm up on the elliptical is usually more than 10 calories a minute, and true Tabata HIIT intensity is around 25. And though I can't tell how hard you are putting out or know your weight, I'm guessing you aren't 2.5 times smaller than me. Only because I'd assume a 75 pound person wouldn't drag around a 40 pound kid.
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robertw486 wrote: »@TamzFit777
I found the below on MET value, though I'd suggest double checking the numbers:
sports rope jumping, fast pace, 120-160 skips/min 12.3
sports rope jumping, moderate pace, 100-120 skips/min, general, 2 foot skip, plain bounce 11.8
sports rope jumping, slow pace, < 100 skips/min, 2 foot skip, rhythm bounce 8.8
The last number is the MET value. From there calculate MET minutes, to include your weight.
cooperinstitute.org/2012/04/met-minutes-a-simple-common-value-to-track-exercise-progress/
That link has a formula, and you can check with the below calculator as well.
lamb.cc/calories-burned-calculator/
The above links should get you in a ballpark range for the rope jumping. I can't verify accuracy, but if you cross check other sources you can often find studies on some pages/calculators that verify where they got the formula's from.
As for the running, I am in general agreement with what @MeanderingMammal stated for calorie burn. I think the general formula he is using is at the bottom of this web page below:
runnersworld.com/weight-loss/how-many-calories-are-you-really-burning
The only thing I would add on the running intervals is whatever effort the sled created in extra drag. Only you know that, but the below calculator might give you an idea if you could compare it to running up a grade.
exrx.net/Calculators/WalkRunMETs.html
And even though I don't know your weight, I still maintain that unless you are fairly small, 10 calories a minute is not that hard, and 15 per minute isn't out of the question for many unless you are that fairly small person.
At 180 pounds, my warm up on the elliptical is usually more than 10 calories a minute, and true Tabata HIIT intensity is around 25. And though I can't tell how hard you are putting out or know your weight, I'm guessing you aren't 2.5 times smaller than me. Only because I'd assume a 75 pound person wouldn't drag around a 40 pound kid.
Thank You. I am currently 147lbs. And for all the other commenters here, do you have something to support that Tabata burns 25? I'm on board with the 15 which is what I originally posted, but many would beg to differ.
I was hitting 72 skips per 25 seconds in my tabata but around the 6th rep i slowed to around 60 per 25 secondsThere is no good, reliable way to measure calorie burns for these types of workouts.
IMO, when using RPE, go by the following (and only count work intervals, NOT rest intervals):
moderate intensity - 7 cals per minute
can speak in broken sentences, can sustain the effort for longer periods of time
high intensity - 10 cals per minute
can speak a couple of words at a time, sustainable for short periods of time (i.e. 2-3 minutes)
maximal intensity - 12 cals per minute
can't speak, can only sustain effort for very short periods of time (i.e. up to 30 seconds)
Now you're speaking my language, (aerobic, anaerobic, glycolytic, oxidative systems), so how long does it take to recover from maximal intensity if you're going for 20 seconds? If you can recover in 10 seconds then do you think it possible to burn 12 cals per minute, for each of the 8 repetitions in tabata?? (before you answer I already think I have the answer im just curious about yours)0 -
TamzFit777 wrote: »TamzFit777 wrote: »Ok as an MFP rule I would suggest
Enter 50-75% of the closest approximation to your activity
So running
Or calisthenics
Monitor your weight over 6-8 weeks, if you lose more than you expected, eat back a higher percentage
Rinse and repeat
It's all just estimates
I've lost 7lbs since I got here. I do (im scared to call it "Tabata") 2x week, and 3 x strength training with calorie counting. (although 10 days ago i ate like 2800 calories)
7lbs over what time frame
Wait until you've got 6-8 weeks data, average loss over that time and adjust
I think you're making it all too complicated
It's fairly easy as a process
Maybe I am, Im a bit of a perfectionist, My goal is specific. I want to weigh 140lbs, 25% fat. So I want to make sure im building muscle and not just losing fat.
I started here on Feb 10th. My goal is 0.5 lbs a week. At the gym I initially gained 4lbs which prompted me to come to MFP. Since then, I weigh in on a tanita (body composition) scale at the gym, My body fat has lowered, my muscle mass has increased(only slightly) but my strength has increased quite favorably. I know 7lbs is a lot for 2 weeks but I think some of that was water retention.
Since Feb 10th you have not gained appreciable muscle mass in a defecit
The tanita scale doesn't give an accurate BF reading ..it would be OK for monitoring progress but over months not 16 days
7lbs weight loss in 2 weeks will be a large proportion water weight, less food in digestive system as you said
Just keep going
Follow a progressive resistance programme and eat sufficient protein (0.64-0.8g per lb of bodyweight minimum)
Monitor and adjust based on what your body is doing over time
Yes thats right. Tanita isnt accurate but useful, i dont have skin calipers or any other device on the market handy at the moment. And yes, I have progressively increased my load thats how i know im stronger.0 -
The studies on burn from exercise rarely mention if the totals are gross or net from exercise.0
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TamzFit777 wrote: »TamzFit777 wrote: »Ok as an MFP rule I would suggest
Enter 50-75% of the closest approximation to your activity
So running
Or calisthenics
Monitor your weight over 6-8 weeks, if you lose more than you expected, eat back a higher percentage
Rinse and repeat
It's all just estimates
I've lost 7lbs since I got here. I do (im scared to call it "Tabata") 2x week, and 3 x strength training with calorie counting. (although 10 days ago i ate like 2800 calories)
7lbs over what time frame
Wait until you've got 6-8 weeks data, average loss over that time and adjust
I think you're making it all too complicated
It's fairly easy as a process
Maybe I am, Im a bit of a perfectionist, My goal is specific. I want to weigh 140lbs, 25% fat. So I want to make sure im building muscle and not just losing fat.
I started here on Feb 10th. My goal is 0.5 lbs a week. At the gym I initially gained 4lbs which prompted me to come to MFP. Since then, I weigh in on a tanita (body composition) scale at the gym, My body fat has lowered, my muscle mass has increased(only slightly) but my strength has increased quite favorably. I know 7lbs is a lot for 2 weeks but I think some of that was water retention.
Since Feb 10th you have not gained appreciable muscle mass in a defecit
The tanita scale doesn't give an accurate BF reading ..it would be OK for monitoring progress but over months not 16 days
7lbs weight loss in 2 weeks will be a large proportion water weight, less food in digestive system as you said
Just keep going
Follow a progressive resistance programme and eat sufficient protein (0.64-0.8g per lb of bodyweight minimum)
Monitor and adjust based on what your body is doing over time
Yeah OP, young men with plentiful testosterone lifting in a heavy and progressive lifting program WHILE eating at a calorie surplus are lucky to put on 1/2lb a month. You should probably expect to gain no muscle while losing weight. That's why people cut and bulk. If people could gain muscle by doing HIIT than body builders wouldn't be lifting weights or consuming protein or getting their T levels checked.0 -
blues4miles wrote: »TamzFit777 wrote: »TamzFit777 wrote: »Ok as an MFP rule I would suggest
Enter 50-75% of the closest approximation to your activity
So running
Or calisthenics
Monitor your weight over 6-8 weeks, if you lose more than you expected, eat back a higher percentage
Rinse and repeat
It's all just estimates
I've lost 7lbs since I got here. I do (im scared to call it "Tabata") 2x week, and 3 x strength training with calorie counting. (although 10 days ago i ate like 2800 calories)
7lbs over what time frame
Wait until you've got 6-8 weeks data, average loss over that time and adjust
I think you're making it all too complicated
It's fairly easy as a process
Maybe I am, Im a bit of a perfectionist, My goal is specific. I want to weigh 140lbs, 25% fat. So I want to make sure im building muscle and not just losing fat.
I started here on Feb 10th. My goal is 0.5 lbs a week. At the gym I initially gained 4lbs which prompted me to come to MFP. Since then, I weigh in on a tanita (body composition) scale at the gym, My body fat has lowered, my muscle mass has increased(only slightly) but my strength has increased quite favorably. I know 7lbs is a lot for 2 weeks but I think some of that was water retention.
Since Feb 10th you have not gained appreciable muscle mass in a defecit
The tanita scale doesn't give an accurate BF reading ..it would be OK for monitoring progress but over months not 16 days
7lbs weight loss in 2 weeks will be a large proportion water weight, less food in digestive system as you said
Just keep going
Follow a progressive resistance programme and eat sufficient protein (0.64-0.8g per lb of bodyweight minimum)
Monitor and adjust based on what your body is doing over time
Yeah OP, young men with plentiful testosterone lifting in a heavy and progressive lifting program WHILE eating at a calorie surplus are lucky to put on 1/2lb a month. You should probably expect to gain no muscle while losing weight. That's why people cut and bulk. If people could gain muscle by doing HIIT than body builders wouldn't be lifting weights or consuming protein or getting their T levels checked.
After my long rest, I started lifting Jan 1st, was eating surplus, then I gained 5lbs OMG! So I started here, Feb 10th. Lost 7lbs. Phew! From then (Jan 1) until now, I think its fair to say I added muscle, even though it was "very little" as I said earlier in the thread. My exercise started before I came here, the diet started when I got here. Hope that makes more sense.0 -
Anyway thank you everyone for your comments, opinions, answers and help. I have a lot of information to work with now, when calculating calories burned during HIIT, Tabata, Running with sled, and strength training.
Wishing you all the best with your fitness goals. I'm not always right and I don't know as much as I would like, but don't be offended if I challenge your answers, I'm here to learn that's why I ask questions so thank you.0 -
TamzFit777 wrote: »
Thank You. I am currently 147lbs. And for all the other commenters here, do you have something to support that Tabata burns 25? I'm on board with the 15 which is what I originally posted, but many would beg to differ.
I was hitting 72 skips per 25 seconds in my tabata but around the 6th rep i slowed to around 60 per 25 seconds
Just for clarification, the 25 calories a minute was just for me, at 170% of my VO2max. Even if you are equally as fit pound per pound, it would be lower for you since you are lighter. The weight is a driving factor in any measure of calories per minute when you are supporting or moving your weight.
I'm not sure if I could do a true Tabata running, as I don't know if I could accelerate or run that fast for 20 seconds.TamzFit777 wrote: »Now you're speaking my language, (aerobic, anaerobic, glycolytic, oxidative systems), so how long does it take to recover from maximal intensity if you're going for 20 seconds? If you can recover in 10 seconds then do you think it possible to burn 12 cals per minute, for each of the 8 repetitions in tabata?? (before you answer I already think I have the answer im just curious about yours)
I know this was aimed elsewhere, but when I did the true Tabata protocol on my elliptical, there was essentially NO recovery in the 10 second rest. HR went up, only dropped maybe a few beats per minute every rest period, and climbed through every interval. My breathing was very taxed. My legs could have probably done another interval or three. My heart rate (and doctor) would not agree.
But recovery or not, I know a lot of people your weight that could burn 12 calories a minute, so I have no reason to doubt that you could do it. I actually wouldn't doubt if you could do it for a longer period of time even without a break. It works out to about a 7.5 MPH run at your weight to burn that many calories per minute.0 -
TamzFit777 wrote: »There is no good, reliable way to measure calorie burns for these types of workouts.
IMO, when using RPE, go by the following (and only count work intervals, NOT rest intervals):
moderate intensity - 7 cals per minute
can speak in broken sentences, can sustain the effort for longer periods of time
high intensity - 10 cals per minute
can speak a couple of words at a time, sustainable for short periods of time (i.e. 2-3 minutes)
maximal intensity - 12 cals per minute
can't speak, can only sustain effort for very short periods of time (i.e. up to 30 seconds)
Now you're speaking my language, (aerobic, anaerobic, glycolytic, oxidative systems), so how long does it take to recover from maximal intensity if you're going for 20 seconds? If you can recover in 10 seconds then do you think it possible to burn 12 cals per minute, for each of the 8 repetitions in tabata?? (before you answer I already think I have the answer im just curious about yours)
I think there are too many variables to really answer that. Is it possible to burn 12 cals per minute during eight 20second efforts? Definitely. Are you? Hard to say.0
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