Why Calories In and Calories Out... It really ISN'T that simple.....

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Replies

  • Carlos_421
    Carlos_421 Posts: 5,132 Member
    pucenavel wrote: »
    A cup of gasoline has around 2000 calories.

    A calorie is not a calorie. Nutrition counts too. Ever heard of vitamins? Minerals?

    And the calories in the gasoline have the same energy as a 2,000 calorie bowl of ice cream would have.

    It's not the calories, but the poison in the gas, that would kill you.
    Putting arsenic on mashed potatoes doesn't make the calories in the potatoes "bad calories." It makes them "calories that don't matter because the arsenic will kill you before anyone sees you've gained weight."
  • brianpperkins
    brianpperkins Posts: 6,124 Member
    pucenavel wrote: »
    A cup of gasoline has around 2000 calories.

    A calorie is not a calorie. Nutrition counts too. Ever heard of vitamins? Minerals?

    You are intermingling different things ... energy and nutrition. Nice strawman position though.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    I think part of the problem is that whenever someone says something like "a calorie isn't just a calorie, an apple is better than you than cake for weight loss", some people basically rush to start "shaming" that person, instead of a much more constructive comment like yours...

    No one is shamed, but the problem is it's an annoying and willful misunderstanding that ignores everything else people have posted and thus seems kind of rude to me.

    Again, as people have said over and over, a calorie is a calorie in that it's a unit of measurement and for weight loss purposes. A calorie is a calorie obviously does not mean a food is a food, so no one is questioning that an apple is different from a cake. (How they fit into a diet or will affect the day of a particular person trying to lose weight depends on the circumstances and the person and the rest of the person's diet, etc.)

    I honestly cannot understand why people insist upon pretending that a calorie is a calorie means all foods are the same when there are numerous posts explaining that is not what is being said. It's like you'd rather argue with a strawman than respect others enough to address the actual comments.

    (No, I don't expect an answer to this either, but feel free to surprise me.)
  • MommyL2015
    MommyL2015 Posts: 1,411 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »

    Again, as people have said over and over, a calorie is a calorie in that it's a unit of measurement and for weight loss purposes. A calorie is a calorie obviously does not mean a food is a food

    This.

    If folks could stop equating these things, that'd be great. Healthy eating does not guarantee weight loss. Eating at a caloric deficit does not guarantee good health.
  • jofjltncb6
    jofjltncb6 Posts: 34,415 Member
    The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".

    So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.

    It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.

    That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.

    That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!

    ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).

    That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.

    The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).

    Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.

    I think it's an important part of the discussion. Learning about how to feel full was psychological for me. But if you don't think so, that's just fine!

    Feelings don't change science.

    That's no news to me. As I wrote above: "But merely because a person ***knows*** CICO is true doesn't make them magically start losing weight out of nowhere."

    You keep injecting feelings and perceptions into a thread that claimed the body treats identical units of energy differently based source. CICO is the driving factor behind gaining, maintaining, or losing weight. If a person knows it to be true or not is irrelevant when it comes to if CICO works. If a person needs to address their psychological approach to food is irrelevant when it comes to if CICO works.

    I'm sorry to have disturbed you @brianpperkins

    I understood the thread as also being about "why CICO may not be enough for people," which OP had one opinion on, and I have another.

    The facticity of CICO (which I believe in) is entirely irrelevant to whether someone will actually be able to change their life habits.

    The only thing in your posts that disturbs me is your failed attempt at word games. Science (noun) is not changed by feelings. Your trying to say "science" isn't a "thing" ignores actual definitions.


    Oh no, they're not word games! It's just my thing, and I find the difference important. I'm a PhD in science studies, marrying a PhD in Chemistry. It's what I do...science!

    I explained it to someone else above, if you're interested in learning the difference.

    Back on topic: I think you've missed my point, but I'm OK with that.

    Best of luck.

    But are you a PhD?

    (I vaguely recall you mentioning once that you were, but I wasn't entirely certain.)

    Meanwhile, what brings you to MFP?
  • brianpperkins
    brianpperkins Posts: 6,124 Member
    The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".

    So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.

    It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.

    That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.

    That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!

    ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).

    That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.

    The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).

    Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.

    I think it's an important part of the discussion. Learning about how to feel full was psychological for me. But if you don't think so, that's just fine!

    Feelings don't change science.

    That's no news to me. As I wrote above: "But merely because a person ***knows*** CICO is true doesn't make them magically start losing weight out of nowhere."

    You keep injecting feelings and perceptions into a thread that claimed the body treats identical units of energy differently based source. CICO is the driving factor behind gaining, maintaining, or losing weight. If a person knows it to be true or not is irrelevant when it comes to if CICO works. If a person needs to address their psychological approach to food is irrelevant when it comes to if CICO works.

    I'm sorry to have disturbed you @brianpperkins

    I understood the thread as also being about "why CICO may not be enough for people," which OP had one opinion on, and I have another.

    The facticity of CICO (which I believe in) is entirely irrelevant to whether someone will actually be able to change their life habits.

    The only thing in your posts that disturbs me is your failed attempt at word games. Science (noun) is not changed by feelings. Your trying to say "science" isn't a "thing" ignores actual definitions.


    Oh no, they're not word games! It's just my thing, and I find the difference important. I'm a PhD in science studies, marrying a PhD in Chemistry. It's what I do...science!

    I explained it to someone else above, if you're interested in learning the difference.

    Back on topic: I think you've missed my point, but I'm OK with that.

    Best of luck.

    "It's" (science is) what you do ... used as a noun (thing) in your own declaration.
  • auddii
    auddii Posts: 15,357 Member
    The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".

    So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.

    It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.

    That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.

    That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!

    ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).

    That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.

    The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).

    Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.

    I think it's an important part of the discussion. Learning about how to feel full was psychological for me. But if you don't think so, that's just fine!

    Feelings don't change science.

    That's no news to me. As I wrote above: "But merely because a person ***knows*** CICO is true doesn't make them magically start losing weight out of nowhere."

    You keep injecting feelings and perceptions into a thread that claimed the body treats identical units of energy differently based source. CICO is the driving factor behind gaining, maintaining, or losing weight. If a person knows it to be true or not is irrelevant when it comes to if CICO works. If a person needs to address their psychological approach to food is irrelevant when it comes to if CICO works.

    I'm sorry to have disturbed you @brianpperkins

    I understood the thread as also being about "why CICO may not be enough for people," which OP had one opinion on, and I have another.

    The facticity of CICO (which I believe in) is entirely irrelevant to whether someone will actually be able to change their life habits.

    The only thing in your posts that disturbs me is your failed attempt at word games. Science (noun) is not changed by feelings. Your trying to say "science" isn't a "thing" ignores actual definitions.


    Oh no, they're not word games! It's just my thing, and I find the difference important. I'm a PhD in science studies, marrying a PhD in Chemistry. It's what I do...science!

    I explained it to someone else above, if you're interested in learning the difference.

    Back on topic: I think you've missed my point, but I'm OK with that.

    Best of luck.

    "It's" (science is) what you do ... used as a noun (thing) in your own declaration.

    To be fair, she doesn't do science; she reads books about people who did science in the past.
  • stealthq
    stealthq Posts: 4,298 Member
    edited February 2016
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".

    So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.

    It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.

    That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.

    That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!

    ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).

    That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.

    The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).

    Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.

    I think it's an important part of the discussion. Learning about how to feel full was psychological for me. But if you don't think so, that's just fine!

    Feelings don't change science.

    That's no news to me. As I wrote above: "But merely because a person ***knows*** CICO is true doesn't make them magically start losing weight out of nowhere."


    PS: as a scientist, i'd like to remind you that "science" is not a thing, it's a method and a process. Do you mean to say "feelings don't change scientifically derived facts"?

    Methods and processes are things.

    Actually...they are different! Here, @Carlos_421 let me explain it to you so you'll know :)

    I can say "e=mc(squared)" and that is not "science." It's a theory that most people would call something close to a scientifically deduced "fact". The science are the methods by which Einstein figured that out. That is the difference. And it's the same with CICO. It's not "science" it is a theory that most people would call something close to a scientifically deduced "fact." Science is the method and process by which people found it to be true to the extent that it has never been proven otherwise.

    You're speaking to a PhD in the history of science, who is getting married to a PhD in Chemistry. I love my science!

    Hey, you learned something today!

    If you're going to be picking nits over the meaning of the word 'science', you ought to be more precise. Science is defined as 1) the systematic study of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment 2) a particular field of this type of study, and 3) a systematic body of knowledge on a particular subject.

    Science is not actually the method or the process. That would be the 'scientific method' which is interchangeable with the less frequently used 'scientific process'.

    And the word science is still a noun, and therefore a thing, regardless, as Carlos already mentioned (as is the scientific method).

    I get that if the history of science is your field of study you're going to have a knee-jerk reaction to such things, but restraint would serve you better, especially if it is not really relevant to and doesn't clarify the main discussion.
  • ames105
    ames105 Posts: 288 Member
    It IS NOT as easy as calories in/calories out for SOME people (for others, that truly does work). I wish people would put that caveat on their statement because it can confuse a lot of people. Many women here suffer from underactive thyroids and hormone conditions like PCOS or menopause. In those cases, its a lot about what you eat. The hormone condition I have responds very well to low carb, which is ironic because I always considered low carb to be a fad type of diet, not sustainable in the long term. But I no longer have a gall bladder, I have NAFLD and a sluggish digestive system. Sugar and high glycemic carbs, even if I remain exactly at 1200 calories (measured, weighed food), will cause a weight gain for me, not to mention a bloated belly and some digestive issues. But, as soon as I go to a high protein food plan, the weight starts melting off very quickly, my stomach flattens again and I feel so much better.

    I know someone is going to say CICO is a proven formula and I understand the mathematics behind it. I am just pointing out that for some people (especially woman and there are more than a few), certain combinations of foods work better than others. I don't want someone to get stuck on CICO when changing a few items might help them out even more.
  • IsMollyReallyHungry
    IsMollyReallyHungry Posts: 15,385 Member
    robs_ready wrote: »
    I'm not criticising but the majority of people already know that a banana is better than eating a bag of crisps, and will feel you up for longer.

    However CICO is designed to provide simple effective guidelines that the majority of people can follow. Its not perfect but it's by far the best way to keep tabs on what your shoving in your mouth.

    Most people will lose weight in a calorie deficit, regardless of what they are eating

    100% agree
  • msf74
    msf74 Posts: 3,498 Member
    ames105 wrote: »

    I know someone is going to say CICO is a proven formula and I understand the mathematics behind it. I am just pointing out that for some people (especially woman and there are more than a few), certain combinations of foods work better than others. I don't want someone to get stuck on CICO when changing a few items might help them out even more.

    I think the problem is that on many occasions CICO and the act of calorie counting get mixed up.

    CICO describes a theory of energy balance whereas calorie counting describes one practical way to achieve the state of energy balance the individual requires to meet their goals (negative energy balance aka a calorie deficit which is required to lose weight for example.)

    So energy balance will be applicable to all individuals no matter their circumstances but the most suitable practical methods for achieving that required state successfully can vary wildly between them depending on a number of factors.
  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
    ames105 wrote: »
    It IS NOT as easy as calories in/calories out for SOME people (for others, that truly does work). I wish people would put that caveat on their statement because it can confuse a lot of people. Many women here suffer from underactive thyroids and hormone conditions like PCOS or menopause. In those cases, its a lot about what you eat. The hormone condition I have responds very well to low carb, which is ironic because I always considered low carb to be a fad type of diet, not sustainable in the long term. But I no longer have a gall bladder, I have NAFLD and a sluggish digestive system. Sugar and high glycemic carbs, even if I remain exactly at 1200 calories (measured, weighed food), will cause a weight gain for me, not to mention a bloated belly and some digestive issues. But, as soon as I go to a high protein food plan, the weight starts melting off very quickly, my stomach flattens again and I feel so much better.

    I know someone is going to say CICO is a proven formula and I understand the mathematics behind it. I am just pointing out that for some people (especially woman and there are more than a few), certain combinations of foods work better than others. I don't want someone to get stuck on CICO when changing a few items might help them out even more.

    CICO is not only a proven formula, it is immutable. You do not get around it, not even with PCOS. You do not start losing fat at the same calorie intake just from changing your foods around, unless your body is even worse at absorbing the new diet and it lowers your intake significantly.
  • LBuehrle8
    LBuehrle8 Posts: 4,044 Member
    ames105 wrote: »
    It IS NOT as easy as calories in/calories out for SOME people (for others, that truly does work). I wish people would put that caveat on their statement because it can confuse a lot of people. Many women here suffer from underactive thyroids and hormone conditions like PCOS or menopause. In those cases, its a lot about what you eat. The hormone condition I have responds very well to low carb, which is ironic because I always considered low carb to be a fad type of diet, not sustainable in the long term. But I no longer have a gall bladder, I have NAFLD and a sluggish digestive system. Sugar and high glycemic carbs, even if I remain exactly at 1200 calories (measured, weighed food), will cause a weight gain for me, not to mention a bloated belly and some digestive issues. But, as soon as I go to a high protein food plan, the weight starts melting off very quickly, my stomach flattens again and I feel so much better.

    I know someone is going to say CICO is a proven formula and I understand the mathematics behind it. I am just pointing out that for some people (especially woman and there are more than a few), certain combinations of foods work better than others. I don't want someone to get stuck on CICO when changing a few items might help them out even more.

    It's about the amount of what you eat.
  • vivmom2014
    vivmom2014 Posts: 1,649 Member
    ames105 wrote: »
    It IS NOT as easy as calories in/calories out for SOME people (for others, that truly does work). I wish people would put that caveat on their statement because it can confuse a lot of people. Many women here suffer from underactive thyroids and hormone conditions like PCOS or menopause.

    Whoa, menopause is something I suffer from? No! Actually it's simply a biological function that indicates health. It's not always a day at the beach, I grant you that, but it's also not that big of a deal. And I've lost the most weight and kept it off after menopause because of one thing: CICO.

  • blues4miles
    blues4miles Posts: 1,481 Member
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".

    So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.

    It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.

    That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.

    That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!

    ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).

    That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.

    The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).

    Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.

    I think it's an important part of the discussion. Learning about how to feel full was psychological for me. But if you don't think so, that's just fine!

    Feelings don't change science.

    That's no news to me. As I wrote above: "But merely because a person ***knows*** CICO is true doesn't make them magically start losing weight out of nowhere."


    PS: as a scientist, i'd like to remind you that "science" is not a thing, it's a method and a process. Do you mean to say "feelings don't change scientifically derived facts"?

    Methods and processes are things.

    Actually...they are different! Here, @Carlos_421 let me explain it to you so you'll know :)

    I can say "e=mc(squared)" and that is not "science." It's a theory that most people would call something close to a scientifically deduced "fact". The science are the methods by which Einstein figured that out. That is the difference. And it's the same with CICO. It's not "science" it is a theory that most people would call something close to a scientifically deduced "fact." Science is the method and process by which people found it to be true to the extent that it has never been proven otherwise.

    You're speaking to a PhD in the history of science, who is getting married to a PhD in Chemistry. I love my science!

    Hey, you learned something today!

    WRONG. To quote Dr. Spaceman...

    tumblr_mof6m5CeWW1qh1g19o1_500.gif
  • vivmom2014
    vivmom2014 Posts: 1,649 Member
    However, as others have pointed out, you are going to feel less full on something like ice cream than the caloric equivalent of veggies.

    Not necessarily. The way I eat ice cream I stay full for a loooong time.

  • LBuehrle8
    LBuehrle8 Posts: 4,044 Member
    vivmom2014 wrote: »
    However, as others have pointed out, you are going to feel less full on something like ice cream than the caloric equivalent of veggies.

    Not necessarily. The way I eat ice cream I stay full for a loooong time.

    Same here, and for whatever reason veggies usually leave me feeling more hungry than I was before I ate them. Raw veggies that is.
  • vivmom2014
    vivmom2014 Posts: 1,649 Member
    law102189 wrote: »
    I've struggled with weight issues most of my adult life. Lost up to 40 lbs at various times through a variety of methods-Atkins, South Beach, Weight Watchers, SlimFasy, gluten-free, etc. Each time I thought "this is it, I've found a way to trick my body and I don't have to bother with weighing and measuring food, or with counting calories. Yippee me!"
    HOWEVER, once I started to eat more normally, I always put the weight + back on within a few months -and always much faster than it took me to lose it. I am 100% certain that CICO is the only forever solution for me. While it does mean a lifetime of logging food, I feel liberated because I know I can eat anything I want as long as I stay within my calorie target. I do choose to focus on whole grains, lean proteins and lots of veggies and fruits, mainly because they keep me full longer and I can stay under my calories, even saving enough for wine on Fridays and Saturdays (yes, I am that person that prefers wine over cake)
    I've been on MFP for about 3 weeks now and love it.

    Good for you.

    And also - you may not have to log for a lifetime. It is possible to step away from logging and maintain weight loss successfully.

  • brianpperkins
    brianpperkins Posts: 6,124 Member
    ames105 wrote: »
    It IS NOT as easy as calories in/calories out for SOME people (for others, that truly does work). I wish people would put that caveat on their statement because it can confuse a lot of people. Many women here suffer from underactive thyroids and hormone conditions like PCOS or menopause. In those cases, its a lot about what you eat. The hormone condition I have responds very well to low carb, which is ironic because I always considered low carb to be a fad type of diet, not sustainable in the long term. But I no longer have a gall bladder, I have NAFLD and a sluggish digestive system. Sugar and high glycemic carbs, even if I remain exactly at 1200 calories (measured, weighed food), will cause a weight gain for me, not to mention a bloated belly and some digestive issues. But, as soon as I go to a high protein food plan, the weight starts melting off very quickly, my stomach flattens again and I feel so much better.

    I know someone is going to say CICO is a proven formula and I understand the mathematics behind it. I am just pointing out that for some people (especially woman and there are more than a few), certain combinations of foods work better than others. I don't want someone to get stuck on CICO when changing a few items might help them out even more.

    An underactive thyroid impacts the calories out side of the equation but CICO remains true.
  • PaulaWallaDingDong
    PaulaWallaDingDong Posts: 4,641 Member
    Naive as I am, I can't believe that the OP contains a url that literally states "calories don't matter" and people are supporting it because "but nutrition!" and "gasoline is bad for you!"
  • amusedmonkey
    amusedmonkey Posts: 10,330 Member
    ames105 wrote: »
    It IS NOT as easy as calories in/calories out for SOME people (for others, that truly does work). I wish people would put that caveat on their statement because it can confuse a lot of people. Many women here suffer from underactive thyroids and hormone conditions like PCOS or menopause. In those cases, its a lot about what you eat. The hormone condition I have responds very well to low carb, which is ironic because I always considered low carb to be a fad type of diet, not sustainable in the long term. But I no longer have a gall bladder, I have NAFLD and a sluggish digestive system. Sugar and high glycemic carbs, even if I remain exactly at 1200 calories (measured, weighed food), will cause a weight gain for me, not to mention a bloated belly and some digestive issues. But, as soon as I go to a high protein food plan, the weight starts melting off very quickly, my stomach flattens again and I feel so much better.

    I know someone is going to say CICO is a proven formula and I understand the mathematics behind it. I am just pointing out that for some people (especially woman and there are more than a few), certain combinations of foods work better than others. I don't want someone to get stuck on CICO when changing a few items might help them out even more.

    I do have PCOS and borderline low thyroid (not low enough to be medicated but low enough to create a difference). I consume quite a bit of sugars in form of fruits and my diet is generally moderate-high in carbs. It's still calories in and calories out for us, but what's tricky is finding our personal individual calorie out which could be lower than usual formulas. According to MFP formula I should be maintaining at 2280 calories but I find myself maintaining at around 2050 - 2100. No problem, I reassessed and recalculated accordingly and everything smoothed out. Knowing that my condition is highly hormonal, which means severe weight fluctuations, I weigh myself daily to establish a trend and a range, and I give myself more time than any other healthy person would before I judge any changes. I could end up gaining for a week, two, or even three, but as long as my lowest low keeps getting lower and my highest high doesn't go higher I know I'm losing. And here I am, 70 pounds down and counting without any special food considerations.
  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
    Naive as I am, I can't believe that the OP contains a url that literally states "calories don't matter" and people are supporting it because "but nutrition!" and "gasoline is bad for you!"

    Oh, my sweet summer child...
  • CoffeeNCardio
    CoffeeNCardio Posts: 1,847 Member
    Naive as I am, I can't believe that the OP contains a url that literally states "calories don't matter" and people are supporting it because "but nutrition!" and "gasoline is bad for you!"

    ahh... you take me back....
  • sbermud
    sbermud Posts: 58 Member
    Nutrition wise it's not the same but for weight loss it is the same...
    100 calories is energy and weight loss is a deficit and that's all that matters to lose weight.
    Doesn't matter what the macros are in that 100 calories...
    My weight loss proves it .
    I don't care about macros and I still lose weight.


    Dr. Mark Hyman... maker of the movie Fed Up (you need to see it if you haven't) addresses the real reason that NOT ALL CALORIES ARE THE SAME....

    Why I will choose....
    100 calories of almonds vs. a processed 100 calorie granola bar.......
    100 calories of berries vs. 100 calories of sugar added yogurt.......

    drhyman.com/blog/2014/04/10/calories-dont-matter/

  • AigreDoux
    AigreDoux Posts: 594 Member
    That's a sensationalist article and I wouldn't trust that guy.

    And CICO is true. Problem is that we suck at measuring both CI and CO, which makes the math not at all simple. I like this NOVA article http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/is-a-calorie-a-calorie.html

    It's not an excuse not to lose weight and calorie counting works for me, but there is evidence that the amount of energy absorbed from different foods varies based on how it is processed, the individual's gut bacteria, and other factors that we probably don't even know about yet.
  • CoffeeNCardio
    CoffeeNCardio Posts: 1,847 Member
    AigreDoux wrote: »
    That's a sensationalist article and I wouldn't trust that guy.

    And CICO is true. Problem is that we suck at measuring both CI and CO, which makes the math not at all simple. I like this NOVA article http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/is-a-calorie-a-calorie.html

    It's not an excuse not to lose weight and calorie counting works for me, but there is evidence that the amount of energy absorbed from different foods varies based on how it is processed, the individual's gut bacteria, and other factors that we probably don't even know about yet.

    Well, there is correlation to the things you're referring to, I wouldn't necessarily call it evidence this early. And in any case, those are such limited differences, they aren't significant enough to affect CICO overall, for the vast majority of people. Ten gallons of water is a lot of water. Until you're measuring its effect on the depth of a lake...
  • ClosetBayesian
    ClosetBayesian Posts: 836 Member
    stealthq wrote: »
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".

    So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.

    It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.

    That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.

    That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!

    ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).

    That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.

    The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).

    Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.

    I think it's an important part of the discussion. Learning about how to feel full was psychological for me. But if you don't think so, that's just fine!

    Feelings don't change science.

    That's no news to me. As I wrote above: "But merely because a person ***knows*** CICO is true doesn't make them magically start losing weight out of nowhere."


    PS: as a scientist, i'd like to remind you that "science" is not a thing, it's a method and a process. Do you mean to say "feelings don't change scientifically derived facts"?

    Methods and processes are things.

    Actually...they are different! Here, @Carlos_421 let me explain it to you so you'll know :)

    I can say "e=mc(squared)" and that is not "science." It's a theory that most people would call something close to a scientifically deduced "fact". The science are the methods by which Einstein figured that out. That is the difference. And it's the same with CICO. It's not "science" it is a theory that most people would call something close to a scientifically deduced "fact." Science is the method and process by which people found it to be true to the extent that it has never been proven otherwise.

    You're speaking to a PhD in the history of science, who is getting married to a PhD in Chemistry. I love my science!

    Hey, you learned something today!

    If you're going to be picking nits over the meaning of the word 'science', you ought to be more precise. Science is defined as 1) the systematic study of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment 2) a particular field of this type of study, and 3) a systematic body of knowledge on a particular subject.

    Science is not actually the method or the process. That would be the 'scientific method' which is interchangeable with the less frequently used 'scientific process'.

    And the word science is still a noun, and therefore a thing, regardless, as Carlos already mentioned (as is the scientific method).

    I get that if the history of science is your field of study you're going to have a knee-jerk reaction to such things, but restraint would serve you better, especially if it is not really relevant to and doesn't clarify the main discussion.

    There are several types of scientific method; it is not just limited to one.
  • AigreDoux
    AigreDoux Posts: 594 Member
    AigreDoux wrote: »
    That's a sensationalist article and I wouldn't trust that guy.

    And CICO is true. Problem is that we suck at measuring both CI and CO, which makes the math not at all simple. I like this NOVA article http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/is-a-calorie-a-calorie.html

    It's not an excuse not to lose weight and calorie counting works for me, but there is evidence that the amount of energy absorbed from different foods varies based on how it is processed, the individual's gut bacteria, and other factors that we probably don't even know about yet.

    Well, there is correlation to the things you're referring to, I wouldn't necessarily call it evidence this early. And in any case, those are such limited differences, they aren't significant enough to affect CICO overall, for the vast majority of people. Ten gallons of water is a lot of water. Until you're measuring its effect on the depth of a lake...

    Yeah, but the general message of this website is to measure everything out by the gram :) So we all agree that small inaccuracies can make a real difference over time. I'm just saying there is a lot that medicine doesn't understand about how the calorie measured in the calorimeter is REALLY what we absorb. "In a 2012 study, USDA scientist Janet Novotny and her colleagues found that the measured energy content of a 28-gram serving of almonds was actually 32 percent less than the Atwater values estimate."

    Heck, I'm counting calories and I think it's the best way to go for weight loss, but I also think/hope over the next 10 years we can refine the equation with even more precision. So I don't think it's all so simple as people are fond of saying here.
  • CoffeeNCardio
    CoffeeNCardio Posts: 1,847 Member
    edited February 2016
    AigreDoux wrote: »
    AigreDoux wrote: »
    That's a sensationalist article and I wouldn't trust that guy.

    And CICO is true. Problem is that we suck at measuring both CI and CO, which makes the math not at all simple. I like this NOVA article http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/is-a-calorie-a-calorie.html

    It's not an excuse not to lose weight and calorie counting works for me, but there is evidence that the amount of energy absorbed from different foods varies based on how it is processed, the individual's gut bacteria, and other factors that we probably don't even know about yet.

    Well, there is correlation to the things you're referring to, I wouldn't necessarily call it evidence this early. And in any case, those are such limited differences, they aren't significant enough to affect CICO overall, for the vast majority of people. Ten gallons of water is a lot of water. Until you're measuring its effect on the depth of a lake...

    Yeah, but the general message of this website is to measure everything out by the gram :) So we all agree that small inaccuracies can make a real difference over time. I'm just saying there is a lot that medicine doesn't understand about how the calorie measured in the calorimeter is REALLY what we absorb. "In a 2012 study, USDA scientist Janet Novotny and her colleagues found that the measured energy content of a 28-gram serving of almonds was actually 32 percent less than the Atwater values estimate."

    Heck, I'm counting calories and I think it's the best way to go for weight loss, but I also think/hope over the next 10 years we can refine the equation with even more precision. So I don't think it's all so simple as people are fond of saying here.

    Well I can't say I'm surprised they found inaccuracies in an equation that was designed in the later part of the 19th century. But even so. It's not a significant enough difference to matter. It would be significant if it made it impossible to lose weight on CICO, but I think the very existence of this website is evidence enough that it's not. For people without extra-biological factors like medical conditions, it really is that simple.
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
    AigreDoux wrote: »
    AigreDoux wrote: »
    That's a sensationalist article and I wouldn't trust that guy.

    And CICO is true. Problem is that we suck at measuring both CI and CO, which makes the math not at all simple. I like this NOVA article http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/is-a-calorie-a-calorie.html

    It's not an excuse not to lose weight and calorie counting works for me, but there is evidence that the amount of energy absorbed from different foods varies based on how it is processed, the individual's gut bacteria, and other factors that we probably don't even know about yet.

    Well, there is correlation to the things you're referring to, I wouldn't necessarily call it evidence this early. And in any case, those are such limited differences, they aren't significant enough to affect CICO overall, for the vast majority of people. Ten gallons of water is a lot of water. Until you're measuring its effect on the depth of a lake...

    Yeah, but the general message of this website is to measure everything out by the gram :) So we all agree that small inaccuracies can make a real difference over time. I'm just saying there is a lot that medicine doesn't understand about how the calorie measured in the calorimeter is REALLY what we absorb. "In a 2012 study, USDA scientist Janet Novotny and her colleagues found that the measured energy content of a 28-gram serving of almonds was actually 32 percent less than the Atwater values estimate."

    Heck, I'm counting calories and I think it's the best way to go for weight loss, but I also think/hope over the next 10 years we can refine the equation with even more precision. So I don't think it's all so simple as people are fond of saying here.

    Well I can't say I'm surprised they found inaccuracies in an equation that was designed in the later part of the 19th century. But even so. It's not a significant enough difference to matter. It would be significant if it made it impossible to lose weight on CICO, but I think the very existence of this website is evidence enough that it's not. For people without extra-biological factors like medical conditions, it really is that simple.

    Everyone admits that it is all a best estimate and that you need to work with your own collated data over time to tweak the results desired. Minor flaws in the numbers doesn't negate the facts and premise of CICO.