Why Calories In and Calories Out... It really ISN'T that simple.....
Replies
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Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
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Mapalicious wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
But it doesn't matter if you're "emotionally able" to handle CICO being accurate. That's like saying that once you're "emotionally able" to accept gravity, it'll start working on you. Facts don't care if you believe them or not.0 -
Mapalicious wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
Strategy vs tactics.
Strategy: Reduce body weight by eating in a caloric deficit, following conservation of energy principles.
Tactics: Habits and plans to implement the strategy. Log food, exercise more, bank calories, find lower cal alternatives for favorite foods, etc.
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OneHundredToLose wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
But it doesn't matter if you're "emotionally able" to handle CICO being accurate. That's like saying that once you're "emotionally able" to accept gravity, it'll start working on you. Facts don't care if you believe them or not.
Well I would presume that's pretty obvious that the truth of a fact isn't based on someone's emotional ability to handle it. But merely because a person ***knows*** CICO is true doesn't make them magically start losing weight out of nowhere.
The point is, someone can "know" that fact and still be emotionally/psychologically unable to change anything about what they're doing regardless of their minds "KNOWING" the fact about their bodies' metabolism. Therefore...yes it is a true fact, and that's great. But weightloss itself won't happen magically because a person KNOWS something.0 -
Mapalicious wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.
The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).
Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.0 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.
The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).
Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.
I think it's an important part of the discussion. Learning about how to feel full was another psychological process for me...and just as important as "knowing" that CICO was true. But if you don't think so, that's just fine!0 -
Mapalicious wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
Strategy vs tactics.
Strategy: Reduce body weight by eating in a caloric deficit, following conservation of energy principles.
Tactics: Habits and plans to implement the strategy. Log food, exercise more, bank calories, find lower cal alternatives for favorite foods, etc.
@Jruzer I love this breakdown! Absolutely. Those old habits may take a lot to break, and new ones may take a lot to make!0 -
Mapalicious wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.
The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).
Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.
I think it's an important part of the discussion. Learning about how to feel full was psychological for me. But if you don't think so, that's just fine!
Feelings don't change science.0 -
brianpperkins wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.
The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).
Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.
I think it's an important part of the discussion. Learning about how to feel full was psychological for me. But if you don't think so, that's just fine!
Feelings don't change science.
That's no news to me. As I wrote above: "But merely because a person ***knows*** CICO is true doesn't make them magically start losing weight out of nowhere."
PS: as a scientist, i'd like to remind you that "science" is not a thing, it's a method and a process. Do you mean to say "feelings don't change scientifically derived facts"?0 -
Mapalicious wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.
The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).
Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.
I think it's an important part of the discussion. Learning about how to feel full was psychological for me. But if you don't think so, that's just fine!
Feelings don't change science.
That's no news to me. As I wrote above: "But merely because a person ***knows*** CICO is true doesn't make them magically start losing weight out of nowhere."
You keep injecting feelings and perceptions into a thread that claimed the body treats identical units of energy differently based source. CICO is the driving factor behind gaining, maintaining, or losing weight. If a person knows it to be true or not is irrelevant when it comes to if CICO works. If a person needs to address their psychological approach to food is irrelevant when it comes to if CICO works.0 -
brianpperkins wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.
The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).
Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.
I think it's an important part of the discussion. Learning about how to feel full was psychological for me. But if you don't think so, that's just fine!
Feelings don't change science.
That's no news to me. As I wrote above: "But merely because a person ***knows*** CICO is true doesn't make them magically start losing weight out of nowhere."
You keep injecting feelings and perceptions into a thread that claimed the body treats identical units of energy differently based source. CICO is the driving factor behind gaining, maintaining, or losing weight. If a person knows it to be true or not is irrelevant when it comes to if CICO works. If a person needs to address their psychological approach to food is irrelevant when it comes to if CICO works.
I'm sorry to have disturbed you @brianpperkins
I understood the thread as also being about "why CICO may not be enough for people," which OP had one opinion on, and I have another.
The facticity of CICO (which I believe in) is entirely irrelevant to whether someone will actually be able to change their life habits.0 -
Mapalicious wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.
The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).
Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.
I think it's an important part of the discussion. Learning about how to feel full was psychological for me. But if you don't think so, that's just fine!
Feelings don't change science.
That's no news to me. As I wrote above: "But merely because a person ***knows*** CICO is true doesn't make them magically start losing weight out of nowhere."
PS: as a scientist, i'd like to remind you that "science" is not a thing, it's a method and a process. Do you mean to say "feelings don't change scientifically derived facts"?
Maybe it does. When I finally woke up and realized how simple losing weight really is....that there doesn't have to be all these special rules to live by in order to see the scales go down, I started to truly have real, sustainable success.
Yes, it works for some people, which I've stated above. That's so great!!! Congrats
But certainly not for others! Therefore, knowing it is only part of the picture.0 -
Mapalicious wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.
The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).
Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.
I think it's an important part of the discussion. Learning about how to feel full was psychological for me. But if you don't think so, that's just fine!
Feelings don't change science.
That's no news to me. As I wrote above: "But merely because a person ***knows*** CICO is true doesn't make them magically start losing weight out of nowhere."
You keep injecting feelings and perceptions into a thread that claimed the body treats identical units of energy differently based source. CICO is the driving factor behind gaining, maintaining, or losing weight. If a person knows it to be true or not is irrelevant when it comes to if CICO works. If a person needs to address their psychological approach to food is irrelevant when it comes to if CICO works.
I'm sorry to have disturbed you @brianpperkins
I understood the thread as also being about "why CICO may not be enough for people," which OP had one opinion on, and I have another.
The facticity of CICO (which I believe in) is entirely irrelevant to whether someone will actually be able to change their life habits.
The link OP cited did not say "to control calories one may have to control behavior or appetite and food choice may play into that." I actually don't agree that learning to eat properly is all that difficult or that it's hard for people to figure out how to eat to be satiated,* but I agree that's important. It said "calories don't matter." That, I believe, is a flat out lie.
*Of course eating within your calories over time may still be challenging, but I think it's because people like food and don't want to think about how much they are eating, not because they genuinely cannot figure out how to not be hungry (for the most part). I don't believe that most people who overeat do so because they are actually hungry, so I think the theories that people today are eating insane numbers of calories in many cases because of that reason start with the wrong premise.0 -
Mapalicious wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.
The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).
Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.
I think it's an important part of the discussion. Learning about how to feel full was psychological for me. But if you don't think so, that's just fine!
Feelings don't change science.
That's no news to me. As I wrote above: "But merely because a person ***knows*** CICO is true doesn't make them magically start losing weight out of nowhere."
You keep injecting feelings and perceptions into a thread that claimed the body treats identical units of energy differently based source. CICO is the driving factor behind gaining, maintaining, or losing weight. If a person knows it to be true or not is irrelevant when it comes to if CICO works. If a person needs to address their psychological approach to food is irrelevant when it comes to if CICO works.
I'm sorry to have disturbed you @brianpperkins
I understood the thread as also being about "why CICO may not be enough for people," which OP had one opinion on, and I have another.
The facticity of CICO (which I believe in) is entirely irrelevant to whether someone will actually be able to change their life habits.
The only thing in your posts that disturbs me is your failed attempt at word games. Science (noun) is not changed by feelings. Your trying to say "science" isn't a "thing" ignores actual definitions.0 -
Mapalicious wrote: »OneHundredToLose wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
But it doesn't matter if you're "emotionally able" to handle CICO being accurate. That's like saying that once you're "emotionally able" to accept gravity, it'll start working on you. Facts don't care if you believe them or not.
Well I would presume that's pretty obvious that the truth of a fact isn't based on someone's emotional ability to handle it. But merely because a person ***knows*** CICO is true doesn't make them magically start losing weight out of nowhere.
The point is, someone can "know" that fact and still be emotionally/psychologically unable to change anything about what they're doing regardless of their minds "KNOWING" the fact about their bodies' metabolism. Therefore...yes it is a true fact, and that's great. But weightloss itself won't happen magically because a person KNOWS something.
I think where things get muddy is that CICO isn't a diet, or a strategy or a tactic. It's not even exclusive to weight loss. It describes energy balance, that calories in equal calories out for an individual in maintenance, and that CI<CO results in weight loss and CI>CO results in weight gain.
Understanding that all calories are equal from an energy perspective has more to do with basic science and math than it does from an approach to weight loss (or gain as not everyone here is trying to lose).
So CICO is a mathematical equation and is indisputable. The approach I choose to follow to achieve my goals is flexible dieting, but others may choose to implement a different approach (LCHF, Paleo, etc). Or they may choose not to actively manage their weight at all, that doesn't negate CICO for them. They are just ignoring it. Which is fine, I did it for nearly 40 years. Some years I was underweight, some years I was overweight. The whole time, CICO applied to me.
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Well thankyou each and every person i really have enjoyed all the post made. I have been inspired in my weight loss journey learned a few things now i will get up and move around to get a little calories out thank you all0
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I've struggled with weight issues most of my adult life. Lost up to 40 lbs at various times through a variety of methods-Atkins, South Beach, Weight Watchers, SlimFasy, gluten-free, etc. Each time I thought "this is it, I've found a way to trick my body and I don't have to bother with weighing and measuring food, or with counting calories. Yippee me!"
HOWEVER, once I started to eat more normally, I always put the weight + back on within a few months -and always much faster than it took me to lose it. I am 100% certain that CICO is the only forever solution for me. While it does mean a lifetime of logging food, I feel liberated because I know I can eat anything I want as long as I stay within my calorie target. I do choose to focus on whole grains, lean proteins and lots of veggies and fruits, mainly because they keep me full longer and I can stay under my calories, even saving enough for wine on Fridays and Saturdays (yes, I am that person that prefers wine over cake)
I've been on MFP for about 3 weeks now and love it.
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Mapalicious wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Mapalicious wrote: »The ability of a person to lose weight doesn't come down to ONLY math. Why? Because we're complex social and psychological beings. Food is part of that complex social and psychological life that we all lead. Therefore, weightloss is a complex psychological as well as physiological process. So tabling the debate of "fat loss vs. nutrition"...there is still more to be said about whether CICO is ultimately "right" or "useful".
So here's my opinion: Yes, CICO is a great fact to learn that can shape your relationship to food. But there is also willpower, feeling full, letting go of unhealthy emotional attachments to food, creating new habits that don't cause you to spiral back into over-eating later in life.
It's a nice quip, and can be a useful leverage for many people! However, I sometimes see it harshly thrown in people's faces when they're struggling with the knowledge of how to re-fashion their relationships to their bodies and to food. Comments along the lines of, "eat less than you burn it's that simple" may help some, and may entirely discourage others.
That's what it comes down to. No matter what, when, where, how or who you decide to eat, CICO is the thing that ends up making you lose weight.
That's lovely idea and absolutely true in mechanical form, @stevencloser but I think my point went entirely over your head!
ONCE SOMEONE IS ABLE to learn how to eat less and have a new relationship to food, CICO will be the underlying mathematical function that helps them lose weight. I know. I lost 125 lbs. But to GET TO THAT POINT where they are actually eating less will take lots of other work. We are not machines, we are thinking, feeling beings (at least, most of us are).
That's not this discussion though and I rarely see people not add caveats about behaviour and disordered relationships with food when people ask for such advice.
The point of this discussion is the OPs assertion that somehow 10 calories from nuts is used differently by the human body than 10 calories of chocolate. Or further on those that somehow think being a firm advocate of just using CICO as your base method to lose weight is fundamentally flawed scientifically and those the advocate for it are living off pizza and chocolate (partially true for me to be fair).
Start and end of weight loss and weight gain from a scientific perspective is CICO. Ability to implement the science is a separate issue.
I think it's an important part of the discussion. Learning about how to feel full was psychological for me. But if you don't think so, that's just fine!
Feelings don't change science.
That's no news to me. As I wrote above: "But merely because a person ***knows*** CICO is true doesn't make them magically start losing weight out of nowhere."
PS: as a scientist, i'd like to remind you that "science" is not a thing, it's a method and a process. Do you mean to say "feelings don't change scientifically derived facts"?
Methods and processes are things.0
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