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A quick refresher on a calorie is a calorie ....
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
I have had my A1C tested at the doctor's office on two separate occasions.ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
wait, so have you been to a doctor or have you self diagnosed yourself?
Did the doctor have suggestions or refer you to a RD?0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
oh lord, lets not go there....
I take it this is not a new thing...0 -
Are you trying to add size or cut fat?ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.0 -
His initial suggestion was for me to watch my sugar intake and make sure I'm exercising. After the second time he said I should keep up exercising and also mentioned to try a low carb diet. While I haven't gone truly low carb, I am definitely keeping my carb intake (especially the amount at one sitting) under better control.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I have had my A1C tested at the doctor's office on two separate occasions.ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
wait, so have you been to a doctor or have you self diagnosed yourself?
Did the doctor have suggestions or refer you to a RD?
0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
His initial suggestion was for me to watch my sugar intake and make sure I'm exercising. After the second time he said I should keep up exercising and also mentioned to try a low carb diet. While I haven't gone truly low carb, I am definitely keeping my carb intake (especially the amount at one sitting) under better control.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I have had my A1C tested at the doctor's office on two separate occasions.ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
wait, so have you been to a doctor or have you self diagnosed yourself?
Did the doctor have suggestions or refer you to a RD?
What was your A1C?0 -
As I posted a page or two back, I have very little fat to lose (I have visible abs along with a 27" waist). It's possible that losing another pound or two of fat (I've already dropped a couple over the past several months) would help (since body fat is implicated in insulin resistance), but I have to question if that's even worth it given my size.
Are you trying to add size or cut fat?ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
Before the diagnosis I had played with the idea of whether I wanted to slowly gain or just maintain. Since I'm 3-4 lbs lighter than I was before my initial test, I kind of want to gain back that weight (this time obviously in LBM). But since it would be easier on my system to maintain, I was thinking of doing that in the short term for now while I (hopefully) get my blood sugar down.0 -
5.7 the first time, then when I got it retested months later it was up to 6.0.queenliz99 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
His initial suggestion was for me to watch my sugar intake and make sure I'm exercising. After the second time he said I should keep up exercising and also mentioned to try a low carb diet. While I haven't gone truly low carb, I am definitely keeping my carb intake (especially the amount at one sitting) under better control.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I have had my A1C tested at the doctor's office on two separate occasions.ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
wait, so have you been to a doctor or have you self diagnosed yourself?
Did the doctor have suggestions or refer you to a RD?
What was your A1C?
0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »As I posted a page or two back, I have very little fat to lose (I have visible abs along with a 27" waist). It's possible that losing another pound or two of fat (I've already dropped a couple over the past several months) would help (since body fat is implicated in insulin resistance), but I have to question if that's even worth it given my size.
Before the diagnosis I had played with the idea of whether I wanted to slowly gain or just maintain. Since I'm 3-4 lbs lighter than I was before my initial test, I kind of want to gain back that weight (this time obviously in LBM). But since it would be easier on my system to maintain, I was thinking of doing that in the short term for now while I (hopefully) get my blood sugar down.
I doubt you have enough fat on you to be of any significance in regards to insulin resistance. I am no doctor though so take that with a grain..
If you want to add size, I would focus on lifting. It is my opinion that in that area, training is underemphasized.0 -
A1C is a quick check. The real question is what happens if they give you fasting glucose challenge. Unfortunately, doctors are reluctant to do those because it involves having a patient stay in the office for several hours, taking up the patient's time and occasional draws by a nurse.ForecasterJason wrote: »
5.7 the first time, then when I got it retested months later it was up to 6.0.queenliz99 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
His initial suggestion was for me to watch my sugar intake and make sure I'm exercising. After the second time he said I should keep up exercising and also mentioned to try a low carb diet. While I haven't gone truly low carb, I am definitely keeping my carb intake (especially the amount at one sitting) under better control.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I have had my A1C tested at the doctor's office on two separate occasions.ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
wait, so have you been to a doctor or have you self diagnosed yourself?
Did the doctor have suggestions or refer you to a RD?
What was your A1C?
0 -
Do you mean the test that's taken after ingesting glucose? If so I've not had that done.
A1C is a quick check. The real question is what happens if they give you fasting glucose challenge. Unfortunately, doctors are reluctant to do those because it involves having a patient stay in the office for several hours, taking up the patient's time and occasional draws by a nurse.ForecasterJason wrote: »
5.7 the first time, then when I got it retested months later it was up to 6.0.queenliz99 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
His initial suggestion was for me to watch my sugar intake and make sure I'm exercising. After the second time he said I should keep up exercising and also mentioned to try a low carb diet. While I haven't gone truly low carb, I am definitely keeping my carb intake (especially the amount at one sitting) under better control.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I have had my A1C tested at the doctor's office on two separate occasions.ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
wait, so have you been to a doctor or have you self diagnosed yourself?
Did the doctor have suggestions or refer you to a RD?
What was your A1C?
(I did have my fasting blood glucose checked the first time and it was normal, but I've also read that in some cases that's the last of the tests to indicate problems).0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
Do you mean the test that's taken after ingesting glucose? If so I've not had that done.
A1C is a quick check. The real question is what happens if they give you fasting glucose challenge. Unfortunately, doctors are reluctant to do those because it involves having a patient stay in the office for several hours, taking up the patient's time and occasional draws by a nurse.ForecasterJason wrote: »
5.7 the first time, then when I got it retested months later it was up to 6.0.queenliz99 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
His initial suggestion was for me to watch my sugar intake and make sure I'm exercising. After the second time he said I should keep up exercising and also mentioned to try a low carb diet. While I haven't gone truly low carb, I am definitely keeping my carb intake (especially the amount at one sitting) under better control.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I have had my A1C tested at the doctor's office on two separate occasions.ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
wait, so have you been to a doctor or have you self diagnosed yourself?
Did the doctor have suggestions or refer you to a RD?
What was your A1C?
(I did have my fasting blood glucose checked the first time and it was normal, but I've also read that in some cases that's the last of the tests to indicate problems).
Yes. Typically you'd come in fasted, get a blood test, drink a not greatest tasting sweet orange drink (give or take your doctor's supplier), take a blod draw, wait, take a blood draw.
Some doctors may diagnose patients as diabetic based on their A1C, but many question using just A1C as the established standard is reaction on a glucose challenge is my understanding.
I'd also second looking into a good progressive overload resistance training program and a slight surplus if your goal is to add lean body mass - assuming you have the doctor's okay. Programs worth throwing out are Starting Strength, Ice Cream Fitness / Juggernaut Fitness / Jason Blaha (he's had to change his channel name for odd reasons), Greyskull LP. Probably a lot of people that can rattle off a lot more of them than I can.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »I made a graphic.
Works for me!!0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
Do you mean the test that's taken after ingesting glucose? If so I've not had that done.
A1C is a quick check. The real question is what happens if they give you fasting glucose challenge. Unfortunately, doctors are reluctant to do those because it involves having a patient stay in the office for several hours, taking up the patient's time and occasional draws by a nurse.ForecasterJason wrote: »
5.7 the first time, then when I got it retested months later it was up to 6.0.queenliz99 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
His initial suggestion was for me to watch my sugar intake and make sure I'm exercising. After the second time he said I should keep up exercising and also mentioned to try a low carb diet. While I haven't gone truly low carb, I am definitely keeping my carb intake (especially the amount at one sitting) under better control.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I have had my A1C tested at the doctor's office on two separate occasions.ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
wait, so have you been to a doctor or have you self diagnosed yourself?
Did the doctor have suggestions or refer you to a RD?
What was your A1C?
(I did have my fasting blood glucose checked the first time and it was normal, but I've also read that in some cases that's the last of the tests to indicate problems).
Yes. Typically you'd come in fasted, get a blood test, drink a not greatest tasting sweet orange drink (give or take your doctor's supplier), take a blod draw, wait, take a blood draw.
Some doctors may diagnose patients as diabetic based on their A1C, but many question using just A1C as the established standard is reaction on a glucose challenge is my understanding.
I'd also second looking into a good progressive overload resistance training program and a slight surplus if your goal is to add lean body mass - assuming you have the doctor's okay. Programs worth throwing out are Starting Strength, Ice Cream Fitness / Juggernaut Fitness* / Jason Blaha (he's had to change his channel name for odd reasons), Greyskull LP. Probably a lot of people that can rattle off a lot more of them than I can.
*Why have I not heard of this program before??!0 -
juggernaut1974 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Do you mean the test that's taken after ingesting glucose? If so I've not had that done.
A1C is a quick check. The real question is what happens if they give you fasting glucose challenge. Unfortunately, doctors are reluctant to do those because it involves having a patient stay in the office for several hours, taking up the patient's time and occasional draws by a nurse.ForecasterJason wrote: »
5.7 the first time, then when I got it retested months later it was up to 6.0.queenliz99 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
His initial suggestion was for me to watch my sugar intake and make sure I'm exercising. After the second time he said I should keep up exercising and also mentioned to try a low carb diet. While I haven't gone truly low carb, I am definitely keeping my carb intake (especially the amount at one sitting) under better control.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I have had my A1C tested at the doctor's office on two separate occasions.ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
wait, so have you been to a doctor or have you self diagnosed yourself?
Did the doctor have suggestions or refer you to a RD?
What was your A1C?
(I did have my fasting blood glucose checked the first time and it was normal, but I've also read that in some cases that's the last of the tests to indicate problems).
Yes. Typically you'd come in fasted, get a blood test, drink a not greatest tasting sweet orange drink (give or take your doctor's supplier), take a blod draw, wait, take a blood draw.
Some doctors may diagnose patients as diabetic based on their A1C, but many question using just A1C as the established standard is reaction on a glucose challenge is my understanding.
I'd also second looking into a good progressive overload resistance training program and a slight surplus if your goal is to add lean body mass - assuming you have the doctor's okay. Programs worth throwing out are Starting Strength, Ice Cream Fitness / Juggernaut Fitness* / Jason Blaha (he's had to change his channel name for odd reasons), Greyskull LP. Probably a lot of people that can rattle off a lot more of them than I can.
*Why have I not heard of this program before??!
And more importantly, where are they sending your royalty checks if not to you?0 -
Well he switched from Ice Cream Fitness to Juggernaut over Layne Norton's lawsuit. What's another name change.WinoGelato wrote: »juggernaut1974 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Do you mean the test that's taken after ingesting glucose? If so I've not had that done.
A1C is a quick check. The real question is what happens if they give you fasting glucose challenge. Unfortunately, doctors are reluctant to do those because it involves having a patient stay in the office for several hours, taking up the patient's time and occasional draws by a nurse.ForecasterJason wrote: »
5.7 the first time, then when I got it retested months later it was up to 6.0.queenliz99 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
His initial suggestion was for me to watch my sugar intake and make sure I'm exercising. After the second time he said I should keep up exercising and also mentioned to try a low carb diet. While I haven't gone truly low carb, I am definitely keeping my carb intake (especially the amount at one sitting) under better control.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I have had my A1C tested at the doctor's office on two separate occasions.ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
wait, so have you been to a doctor or have you self diagnosed yourself?
Did the doctor have suggestions or refer you to a RD?
What was your A1C?
(I did have my fasting blood glucose checked the first time and it was normal, but I've also read that in some cases that's the last of the tests to indicate problems).
Yes. Typically you'd come in fasted, get a blood test, drink a not greatest tasting sweet orange drink (give or take your doctor's supplier), take a blod draw, wait, take a blood draw.
Some doctors may diagnose patients as diabetic based on their A1C, but many question using just A1C as the established standard is reaction on a glucose challenge is my understanding.
I'd also second looking into a good progressive overload resistance training program and a slight surplus if your goal is to add lean body mass - assuming you have the doctor's okay. Programs worth throwing out are Starting Strength, Ice Cream Fitness / Juggernaut Fitness* / Jason Blaha (he's had to change his channel name for odd reasons), Greyskull LP. Probably a lot of people that can rattle off a lot more of them than I can.
*Why have I not heard of this program before??!
And more importantly, where are they sending your royalty checks if not to you?0 -
Well he switched from Ice Cream Fitness to Juggernaut over Layne Norton's lawsuit. What's another name change.WinoGelato wrote: »juggernaut1974 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Do you mean the test that's taken after ingesting glucose? If so I've not had that done.
A1C is a quick check. The real question is what happens if they give you fasting glucose challenge. Unfortunately, doctors are reluctant to do those because it involves having a patient stay in the office for several hours, taking up the patient's time and occasional draws by a nurse.ForecasterJason wrote: »
5.7 the first time, then when I got it retested months later it was up to 6.0.queenliz99 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
His initial suggestion was for me to watch my sugar intake and make sure I'm exercising. After the second time he said I should keep up exercising and also mentioned to try a low carb diet. While I haven't gone truly low carb, I am definitely keeping my carb intake (especially the amount at one sitting) under better control.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I have had my A1C tested at the doctor's office on two separate occasions.ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
wait, so have you been to a doctor or have you self diagnosed yourself?
Did the doctor have suggestions or refer you to a RD?
What was your A1C?
(I did have my fasting blood glucose checked the first time and it was normal, but I've also read that in some cases that's the last of the tests to indicate problems).
Yes. Typically you'd come in fasted, get a blood test, drink a not greatest tasting sweet orange drink (give or take your doctor's supplier), take a blod draw, wait, take a blood draw.
Some doctors may diagnose patients as diabetic based on their A1C, but many question using just A1C as the established standard is reaction on a glucose challenge is my understanding.
I'd also second looking into a good progressive overload resistance training program and a slight surplus if your goal is to add lean body mass - assuming you have the doctor's okay. Programs worth throwing out are Starting Strength, Ice Cream Fitness / Juggernaut Fitness* / Jason Blaha (he's had to change his channel name for odd reasons), Greyskull LP. Probably a lot of people that can rattle off a lot more of them than I can.
*Why have I not heard of this program before??!
And more importantly, where are they sending your royalty checks if not to you?
Ah...didn't realize he changed the name...
Probably too late to sue now
0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
Do you mean the test that's taken after ingesting glucose? If so I've not had that done.
A1C is a quick check. The real question is what happens if they give you fasting glucose challenge. Unfortunately, doctors are reluctant to do those because it involves having a patient stay in the office for several hours, taking up the patient's time and occasional draws by a nurse.ForecasterJason wrote: »
5.7 the first time, then when I got it retested months later it was up to 6.0.queenliz99 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
His initial suggestion was for me to watch my sugar intake and make sure I'm exercising. After the second time he said I should keep up exercising and also mentioned to try a low carb diet. While I haven't gone truly low carb, I am definitely keeping my carb intake (especially the amount at one sitting) under better control.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I have had my A1C tested at the doctor's office on two separate occasions.ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
wait, so have you been to a doctor or have you self diagnosed yourself?
Did the doctor have suggestions or refer you to a RD?
What was your A1C?
(I did have my fasting blood glucose checked the first time and it was normal, but I've also read that in some cases that's the last of the tests to indicate problems).
Yes. Typically you'd come in fasted, get a blood test, drink a not greatest tasting sweet orange drink (give or take your doctor's supplier), take a blod draw, wait, take a blood draw.
Some doctors may diagnose patients as diabetic based on their A1C, but many question using just A1C as the established standard is reaction on a glucose challenge is my understanding.
I'd also second looking into a good progressive overload resistance training program and a slight surplus if your goal is to add lean body mass - assuming you have the doctor's okay. Programs worth throwing out are Starting Strength, Ice Cream Fitness / Juggernaut Fitness / Jason Blaha (he's had to change his channel name for odd reasons), Greyskull LP. Probably a lot of people that can rattle off a lot more of them than I can.
That sounds like the OGTT (oral glucose tolerance test). The take blood every 30 minutes for about two hours.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
So a calorie is only a calorie in weight gain if there are enough of them ?0 -
How so? It repeated those words many times in the study itself.
The PR (and perhaps parts of the text) was potentially misleading because there was actually no difference in the measured (DEXA) fat loss between the two diets in men. The calorie deficit was different between the two diets too - it was greater in the reduced fat diet (p=0.014)
Supplementary table S3 shows that there was no significant measured fat loss in the female subjects on either diet - in fact their % body fat went up (NS).
This wasn't made clear in the headlines, which are all about the calculated extrapolated fat loss.
You're telling me the media misrepresents science?
Nope, never happens.
The scientists misrepresented their own science in this instance.
0 -
If anyone thinks there's a single definition of the calorie they might enjoy the nine different definitions listed by the UN's FAO in Table 3.7 at http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/y5022e/y5022e04.htm
Some of the variations depend on where you stop on this diagram :-
These aren't different definitions of a calorie.
They are different definitions of the FOOD ENERGY CONVERSION FACTORS
I didn't realise this was a debate about a calorie being 4.18 kJ as opposed to something related to Nutrition and the effect on the human body. The self same product labelled in the UK has a different calorie value in the US, but the calorie would indeed be the same physical unit so have a round of applause for that.0
This discussion has been closed.
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