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A quick refresher on a calorie is a calorie ....
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I can see how someone could confuse digestion and metabolism. Without digestion there can be no metabolism. Digestion could be viewed as the first stage of metabolism, or the "overall" metabolism.
Well technically digestion isn't completely necessary if you have a severe medical condition and are given TPN (I get this through a picc line straight to my heart when my Crohn's is bad and I can't absorb nutrients) but that is very rare for it to be used
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It happens with other topics as well (such as the weight of pound of muscle vs a pound of fat). That's how our society is.ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yes. I initially brought this up in one of the early pages that there's a discrepancy behind using terminology in casual conversation vs technical meanings.lemurcat12 wrote: »Usually when people say "not all calories are equal" they are using "calories" as a synonym for foods and saying that different foods provide different nutrients or help more with satiety.
This is where the misunderstanding begins...
That's a pretty big area to confuse though, no?0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »
Nautical miles? Roman, Italian, Chinese?
Are you sure?
Say kilometers if you prefer. I was only using same terminology as was used in the analogy. 0 -
I love this topic - the reality of this topic is - most peeeps just want to lose weight so if I am counting my calories and at the end of the night when I finish my food logging it says always_smilin_D was under her calories today - it is a matter of celebration, NO? There is a difference between seeking to be healthy and wanting to lose weight. When seeking healthy or improved quality of life - cuz not every obese person is sick, nor not all skinny person is healthy - we only look at # calories consumed - never mind that when mindfully eating high nutritional food the diary looks as you ate all damn day long, cuz omg can you eat and eat and eat and have a hard time hitting them 1200 -- I know I do...
You gotta be seeking healthier, better quality of life to actually pay attention to the nutritional value of what you are consuming... uff the benefits of eating nutrient dense foots is endless - but if all I am caring about is the # on the scale in the morning - who cares how I do it? right? - I am still going to get results as long as in deficit...0 -
Let's for a moment, pretend they are the same thing. I want to know, how does insoluble fiber speed up the metabolism...? I know it slows down digestion. Not sure how it speeds up metabolism though...singingflutelady wrote: »I can see how someone could confuse digestion and metabolism. Without digestion there can be no metabolism. Digestion could be viewed as the first stage of metabolism, or the "overall" metabolism.
Well technically digestion isn't completely necessary if you have a severe medical condition and are given TPN (I get this through a picc line straight to my heart when my Crohn's is bad and I can't absorb nutrients) but that is very rare for it to be used0 -
I made a graphic.
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Let's for a moment, pretend they are the same thing. I want to know, how does insoluble fiber speed up the metabolism...? I know it slows down digestion. Not sure how it speeds up metabolism though...singingflutelady wrote: »I can see how someone could confuse digestion and metabolism. Without digestion there can be no metabolism. Digestion could be viewed as the first stage of metabolism, or the "overall" metabolism.
Well technically digestion isn't completely necessary if you have a severe medical condition and are given TPN (I get this through a picc line straight to my heart when my Crohn's is bad and I can't absorb nutrients) but that is very rare for it to be used
I was just trying to be annoying. I know that digestion and metabolism are not the same thing lol. My body couldn't digest but my metabolism didn't stop or change or anything
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stevencloser wrote: »I made a graphic.
❤️0 -
singingflutelady wrote: »
Let's for a moment, pretend they are the same thing. I want to know, how does insoluble fiber speed up the metabolism...? I know it slows down digestion. Not sure how it speeds up metabolism though...singingflutelady wrote: »I can see how someone could confuse digestion and metabolism. Without digestion there can be no metabolism. Digestion could be viewed as the first stage of metabolism, or the "overall" metabolism.
Well technically digestion isn't completely necessary if you have a severe medical condition and are given TPN (I get this through a picc line straight to my heart when my Crohn's is bad and I can't absorb nutrients) but that is very rare for it to be used
I was just trying to be annoying. I know that digestion and metabolism are not the same thing lol. My body couldn't digest but my metabolism didn't stop or change or anything
Oh I know... 0 -
I actually think my metabolism went up. I was getting 2000+ calories a day directly in my bloodstream plus I was allowed "clear fluids" (jello, broth, popsicles, Apple juice) and other than the 20+ trips to the bathroom I was very sedentary (lying in a hospital bed). My weight didn't budge (and I was on Prednisone and other meds and I was very underweight at the time).0
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stevencloser wrote: »I made a graphic.
Nifty, but shouldn't "definite" and "possible" be swapped?
Unless I am just misreading it?0 -
stevencloser wrote: »I made a graphic.
Nifty, but shouldn't "definite" and "possible" be swapped?
Unless I am just misreading it?
The smallest one is the definite loss, if your CI is at the highest it could be and CO at the lowest it could be.0 -
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.0 -
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
oh lord, lets not go there....0 -
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
wait, so have you been to a doctor or have you self diagnosed yourself?0 -
I have had my A1C tested at the doctor's office on two separate occasions.ForecasterJason wrote: »
At one point I was doing a lot of low to moderate intensity exercise (walking), some upper body resistance training, but very little vigorous cardio. After doing that for 2-3 months, my long term blood sugar control worsened (based on my analysis that may have been partly due to too many carbs for my system to handle).ForecasterJason wrote: »
Yeah, ideally a more significant clean bulk would be better so that I can build up more LBM. But in the short term I need to get my muscles to stop being as resistant to insulin as they are. So, eating at maintenance is probably best for right now.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I don't know for sure, but based on my medical condition I think that gaining as little as a pound of fat may cause a lot of harm. If I can get at least 20 of those 30 calories to go into increasing LBM, over the course of a few months it could make a noticeable change depending on where it's gained. In the past I gained about 3 lbs of LBM in my upper body and family members thought that was "a lot" of muscle gained based on how it affected my physique.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For medical reasons it would be best that I avoid gaining more than a pound of fat over the next several months, while at the same time I'd like to increase my LBM.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
why are you trying to gain .25 pounds per month? who does that/???
Do you think those 30 cals is going to add a significant amount of LBM? or fat?
what is this medical condition?
and a gain of .25 a month and trying to gain any appreciable LBM is the poster child for spinning your wheels...
Pre-diabetesEvgeniZyntx wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The crazy thing is that I'm at a BMI of 19 with a waist size of 27 inches (and have visible abs), so I shouldn't need to lose weight.EvgeniZyntx wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I don't eat almonds, the funny thing is that with my overall goals, 30 calories a day may actually be significant. If I want to try to gain 0.25 lb a month, it would matter in that regard.stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Istevencloser wrote: »"A calorie is just a calorie."
100 calories of chicken, 100 calories of french fries. Both give energy, but the chicken does more. It's just that simple.
It's all great and wonderful until you compare molecules and how it works in the body. It's the same energy, true, but how the body reacts to that energy is what really matters. Life isn't about a scale and counting calories everyday we were never meant to do that. But if it works for you GREAT.
Do what works for you, but don't proclaim it will works for all, if it did the world would not have a obesity problem.
"A mile is just a mile."
Until you compare the terrain. It's the same distance.
I want to see anyone walk 1 mile on flat ground. Then I want to see someone walk one mile on mountainous terrain.
The distance was the same, but it wasn't the same situation.
As the OP said very clearly...
There is nothing clear in any of it. As simple as it's trying to be made to be, it's just not.
I think if you want to make it complicated you can - there are a myriad of minutiae, with supporting scientific peer reviewed studies that can brought to bear
But the question is 'Are they relevant to your goals?'
The issue with not taking things back to the lowest common denominator is, as I see it, visible in many different fields of expertise .. it causes inertia
A failure to make a decision or commit to a path because one just needs to consider this other information which will at best result in a couple of percentage points difference
Sometimes good enough is just that
It's good enough to achieve your goals
(I remove elite athletes at the top of their game from this .. but only them)
There is plenty of evidence that goes against a calorie being a calorie. The definition is true, until applied, then what? This is why you have an argument in the first place. A cow is just a cow until it's a hamburger, a hamburger is just a hamburger until it's digested now it's a calorie. The point, a calorie is just a calorie when categorizing, after that they are not the same as we see in proteins, fats, carbs, then we dig deeper layer of layer. It's not simple.
Carbs, fats and protein, when used as fuel will always be turned into ATP providing an amount of calories. the way they get turned into that is different but the end product is the same.
So actually, they're different until they're not anymore.
Wrong. you are so stuck on looking at fats, proteins, carbs you always forget the others. Fiber is a huge one. Fiber slows down the metabolic rate which uses less calories to process the food, so instead of 160 calories worth of almonds it becomes 130. As I said, it's not that simple.
As I told robert, if you're in a place where a 30 calorie difference is somehow fatal to your goals, you're doing something wrong.
I think @EvgeniZyntx once showed that such a small surplus is unlikely to be realizable as the body would counteract it to become maintenance.
Yep, we had that a while back.
Let's say that one is at maintenance - add 30 cals and ... nothing will happen.
Why? Because the body up regulates slight metabolic activity, NEAT, etc.
Maintenance isn't a single point - it's a spread of about 100 to 200 cals. Eat anywhere in between and, boom, no change. But let's say you add those 30 cals right at the edge of the spread. And you go up a whole .25 lb a month.
There is no medical situation that counter-indicates a gain of a lb a month that isn't better served by losing 2 a week. If you are not supposed to gain weight at all shouldn't you be losing weight?
Get to a manageable weight, then bulk - otherwise you are spinning your wheels.
Ok, I don't know your medical condition and would suggest that you actively discuss this with your physician. If you have a BMI of 19 what makes you think that your condition will worsen with a 1 lb gain/month?
Please feel free to NOT answer if you feel that you would rather that type of personal info remain private.
If you do wish to gain LBM - at some point you will need a bit of an increase in calories - and any gain will result at least in a little fat gain (which you can then lose, on a cut). If you feel that you do not want to see a lot of fat, then yes, work on shorter cycles of gain and loss (but anything shorter than 4 weeks give your body less time to ramp up synthesis - you basically lose 3-5 days each time you cycle up).
Edit: the point in the discussion is that 30 cals a day is not the level of accuracy you can expect from calorie counting. Each day is usually accurate within say 50-100 based on true density of food, absorption, TEF, sleep, movement, etc. Think of it as general guidance rather than absolute measures.
I understand that, but since in this thread we are discussing extracting calories from food on a miniscule level, it makes me wonder if I can tweak my diet to just barely overcompensate for the effects of increased NEAT.
In my opinion, that path leads to bad places. The only way one can control calorie content to that level is if you stop eating regular food and move over to solvent-type preparations. A banana will vary in calorie value based on ripeness alone by 10-15 cals. A potato? Add or subtract 10 cals based on duration of cooking. How marbled was your steak? 4% or 5%. And that's just the CI part of the equation. Did you walk 15 more minutes? Got up 20 minutes late? etc...
Calorie counting isn't an exact science despite the science behind it. Think of trying to get a length of string and the only tools you are allowed to use are inch measuring tape. Don't concern yourself with the fact that silk string expands less than cotton string by a tenth of a inch per yard when all we are doing is guesstimating inches.
If you are concerned about pre-diabetes - discuss with your doc your goals of gaining lean muscle and whether you can gain 4-5 lbs over a few months with the idea of then cutting. While weight is a factor - a few pounds do not seem to lend themselves to significant increase in risk - but again - since it is medical... talk to your doc.
Oops, didn't lick the plate, calorie surplus fine.
I'd say he should see if he can talk to an endocrinologist, particularly one with some sports medicine background if possible.
There is some evidence that I posted in the diabetes and insulin sensitivity thread that greater lean body mass is associated with less diabetes risk.
What does your training look like?
Lately I have been doing a little more vigorous cardio (running) and still do a good bit of walking.
wait, so have you been to a doctor or have you self diagnosed yourself?
0
This discussion has been closed.
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