For Some of Us there ARE Bad Foods
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lemurcat12 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I have no medical reason not to eat any food, I still maintain that there are bad and good foods. I have never seen anything on this site or elsewhere to make me think otherwise.
Examples and rationale?
Its only in this forum that people insist we have to eat all foods moderately or you are a failed human being.
Sigh. Except that no one here has been saying you have to eat all foods moderately. No one.
I am. I demand everyone here eat moderate amounts of all possible foods this instant. It doesn't matter if you like them, or have a medical condition for it, you must do so now.
Will you hold my epi pen for me? I've got to go eat moderate amounts of shellfish now.
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BecomingBane wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I have no medical reason not to eat any food, I still maintain that there are bad and good foods. I have never seen anything on this site or elsewhere to make me think otherwise.
Examples and rationale?
Its only in this forum that people insist we have to eat all foods moderately or you are a failed human being.
Sigh. Except that no one here has been saying you have to eat all foods moderately. No one.
I am. I demand everyone here eat moderate amounts of all possible foods this instant. It doesn't matter if you like them, or have a medical condition for it, you must do so now.
Will you hold my epi pen for me? I've got to go eat moderate amounts of shellfish now.
Sure, no getting out of it with those veganism claims.
I figure MFP needs at least one person pretending to be as unreasonable as the forum gets strawmanned as being.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »distinctlybeautiful wrote: »I have been using MFP for some time, but have only recently started visiting this board. I find myself surprised at the number of people who say such things as "there are no bad foods" or "you can eat whatever you want" when they no nothing of the individual circumstances of the poster.
We know that people respond differently to medicines; we know that they respond differently to alcohol. Yet people seem to assume that whatever works for them apply to everyone else.
I find that most of the "itos" food group are bad foods for me. Consider the following situation:
I typically save calories so that if I get hungry in the evening, there is room for a snack. So lets assume I am going to "spend" 160 calories.
My choices:
A. Eat 1/4 cup of nuts B. 160 calories of raw veggies with hummus or C. 160 calories of Cheetos
If I were to select A or B, I would end up more full the whole evening, and I would experiences no strong urges to eat the entire pantry. If I were to select C., I would be REALLY hungry 15 minutes later and would have to fight back INTENSE cravings to eat more.
Now my willpower is usually very good; but even if it holds up, I am starving all night. However, if I have had a really bad day or am otherwise exhausted and feeling stressed, I may be vulnerable to succumbing.
Success for me means eliminating "itos". I have gone as long as 6-7 years without touching these foods, and my weight fluctuations are within about a 15-20 pound band. This band is much larger when I eat these kind of foods.
I understand that this does not apply to everyone. But I think we need to be careful about telling people they can succeed while eating everything they like to eat, because there are people for whom this generalization is simply not true.
It's the word "bad" people tend to object to. You're attaching morals to food.
Bad has many meaning that have nothing to do with morals. Substandard, poor, inferior, faulty, etc.
But the multiple posts I've seen here from people talking about the guilt they feel for making "bad" choices indicate that, for many people, "bad" is used in a moral sense.
Especially for many women, choosing "good" foods (and denying oneself "bad" ones) has a heavy component of moralism. Self-control is seen as moral, indulgence is seen as bad.
Yes, some people may be using "bad" to mean "substandard." But many people clearly are not.
Well sure, people are different. I don't think anyone has said that everyone needs to call foods bad, have they? To each his own.
There was a thread not long ago where the OP was arguing just that -- she was saying "admit it, these foods ARE bad, you just don't want to admit you are eating BAD food."
Oh, well I stand corrected. One poster has said it. Still think the posts saying "you shouldn't think of food as good/bad" are in the lead, though.
What about something like the post I mentioned earlier, with an OP talking about how she felt such guilt and shame whenever she ate a bad food like bread. I think for someone like that it is helpful (and kind) to encourage them to not think of foods as bad and good and certainly not to attach guilt and shame to eating decisions, and to talk about how trying to think really logically about foods and how they fit into an overall healthy diet has helped us and so on.
I wouldn't lecture her about not using the "bad foods" label, but I see her as someone who would be better off not using it (as I am). I think a lot of the discussion of this is about the theoretical example, or about why it doesn't work for us. I really don't think anyone cares if you use the term.
What I disagreed with here, with OP's post, wasn't that he personally considers Cheetos a bad food for him (I just consider it not tasty). It was that he seemed to be misunderstanding comments that there are no bad foods to mean that people didn't think there were differences between foods.
Your posts seem like you think I'm trying to change your mind about or telling you not to do something.
Personally I don't think it's bad to feel guilt when you overeat or have been eating poorly, and not being familiar with the post of which speak I can only say that feeling guilt over eating bread within the confines of a balanced diet seems like an issue beyond what I think calling or not calling foods good/bad would be likely to help. But it's hard to say since I only have your interpretation to go on and honestly I rarely interpret posts in the same manner as you.
I'm not sure what you mean by "bad" in this context, but given my own personal experience and the dozens of posts I've seen around here, it doesn't seem like guilt around food choices is an emotion that helps drive anyone forward or make lasting changes in their life. It seems to only lead to misery, more emotional choices around food, and (sometimes) over-compensation. In this sense, I would say that guilt over food choices (or making food choice a moral issue) is a "bad" thing. It leads to more unhappiness in the world, something that we don't really need more of.
My experience has been very different. I usually feel some level of guilt when I overindulge. I think it's one of the things that has helped me control my weight.
I'm glad it works for you, but several people are trying to tell you that this type of thinking has been actively harmful to them.
Seriously? Wow, I totally didn't get that.
I'm not sure what response you are looking for. I have never (never, ever, ever) told anyone that they needed to think of food as good/bad. Never. Never, ever.
But if your intent is to assimilate me to the 'never call food good/bad' mindset it's not working.
I'm not looking for any particular response from you. I'm engaging in conversation.
I'm not sure how to take your comment about "assimilation." Can people share their point of view with you without looking to "assimilate" you?0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »1. They are so stupid that when presented with the statement "there are no bad foods" they accept this without question and uncritically and therefore run off to construct their diets entirely out of poptarts and dust and / or
2. They are so emotionally fragile that when presented with a viewpoint that goes against what they believe or may be construed an insensitive to their struggles that it causes a complete collapse in their motivation and they stop their efforts altogether
Would the opposite also be true? Must we say that there are no bad foods because of an assumption that someone is so stupid or emotionally fragile they will assume calling a food bad means they should never ever consume that food, and that doing so in any amount will cause them harm?
Once again, I personally don't object to someone saying a food is a bad food for them. I do think there is enough moralistic and disordered thinking about foods that the message that foods are bad or good (or what you eat makes you bad or good) should be countered. There was just another new thread yesterday from someone feeling guilt and shame when she eats bread.
What frustrates me is people twisting the statement "there are no bad foods" into a claim that nutrition doesn't matter. No one is saying that nutrition does not matter.
I don't know if I will ever get used to what seems to be common thinking on MFP that good and bad always have some moral connotation. If I stub my toe or stain my shirt, that's bad. It’s not morally wrong, but still not good.
I do agree with your last paragraph, though I get just as frustrated when calling foods bad = never eating them and eventually failing or binge eating.
Actually, having a toe stubbed or shirt stained could be morally bad if the ethics system doesn't regard intent and blame. In such ethics, the world where your toe is stubbed is morally worse compared to an identical world where it isn't. Saying you believe morals requires intent doesn't even fix the comparison because almost all adults eating involves the intent of the adults.
For me personally, my biggest problem is that categorical statements are usually wrong (though to avoid the trap myself, I won't say they are always wrong!). A Twinkie is a bad food - well unless you're starving to death, or you're about to go into hypoglycemic shock, or you've been eating some odd diet that has left you thiamine deficient and now that oh-so-unclean food's B vitamin enrichment will fill in the deficiency - suddenly it is a good food because the food can't be judged outside of the context of use. It is like saying a tool like a hammer is bad - well sure, if you try to recreate the 3 Stooges with it, it is very bad, but most people use it for something good like building birdhouses or whatnot.
For someone that is starving would you say that a Twinkie, while maybe lifesaving, is not the best food for that person? That there would a better food if it were available?
Well now you're not discussing if a food is good, you're discussing if it is the best. So are good foods ones that meet a context and nothing could meet that context better? Does food being good depend on what is available to you, or are there foods that are always good, not just waiting for what's better to displace them? This seems another time I'm forced to use the phrase making the perfect the enemy of the good.
How can we have better or best without having good/bad?
How can we have any without context?
So if I hurt my toe do I need context for that to be bad?
Yes. If you did it saving an orphanage, is it as bad as hurting it in the context of you picked a lousy place for your nightstand?
Yes, I would think so. Saving the orphanage would be good, but hurting my toe would still be bad. If your child died saving an orphanage, would you not think their death was bad?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I have no medical reason not to eat any food, I still maintain that there are bad and good foods. I have never seen anything on this site or elsewhere to make me think otherwise.
Examples and rationale?
Its only in this forum that people insist we have to eat all foods moderately or you are a failed human being.
Sigh. Except that no one here has been saying you have to eat all foods moderately. No one.
I was told* I had a bad relationship with food because I don't haven't eaten cheesecake in over a decade.
*not this thread, but on an MFP forum0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »distinctlybeautiful wrote: »I have been using MFP for some time, but have only recently started visiting this board. I find myself surprised at the number of people who say such things as "there are no bad foods" or "you can eat whatever you want" when they no nothing of the individual circumstances of the poster.
We know that people respond differently to medicines; we know that they respond differently to alcohol. Yet people seem to assume that whatever works for them apply to everyone else.
I find that most of the "itos" food group are bad foods for me. Consider the following situation:
I typically save calories so that if I get hungry in the evening, there is room for a snack. So lets assume I am going to "spend" 160 calories.
My choices:
A. Eat 1/4 cup of nuts B. 160 calories of raw veggies with hummus or C. 160 calories of Cheetos
If I were to select A or B, I would end up more full the whole evening, and I would experiences no strong urges to eat the entire pantry. If I were to select C., I would be REALLY hungry 15 minutes later and would have to fight back INTENSE cravings to eat more.
Now my willpower is usually very good; but even if it holds up, I am starving all night. However, if I have had a really bad day or am otherwise exhausted and feeling stressed, I may be vulnerable to succumbing.
Success for me means eliminating "itos". I have gone as long as 6-7 years without touching these foods, and my weight fluctuations are within about a 15-20 pound band. This band is much larger when I eat these kind of foods.
I understand that this does not apply to everyone. But I think we need to be careful about telling people they can succeed while eating everything they like to eat, because there are people for whom this generalization is simply not true.
It's the word "bad" people tend to object to. You're attaching morals to food.
Bad has many meaning that have nothing to do with morals. Substandard, poor, inferior, faulty, etc.
But the multiple posts I've seen here from people talking about the guilt they feel for making "bad" choices indicate that, for many people, "bad" is used in a moral sense.
Especially for many women, choosing "good" foods (and denying oneself "bad" ones) has a heavy component of moralism. Self-control is seen as moral, indulgence is seen as bad.
Yes, some people may be using "bad" to mean "substandard." But many people clearly are not.
Well sure, people are different. I don't think anyone has said that everyone needs to call foods bad, have they? To each his own.
There was a thread not long ago where the OP was arguing just that -- she was saying "admit it, these foods ARE bad, you just don't want to admit you are eating BAD food."
Oh, well I stand corrected. One poster has said it. Still think the posts saying "you shouldn't think of food as good/bad" are in the lead, though.
What about something like the post I mentioned earlier, with an OP talking about how she felt such guilt and shame whenever she ate a bad food like bread. I think for someone like that it is helpful (and kind) to encourage them to not think of foods as bad and good and certainly not to attach guilt and shame to eating decisions, and to talk about how trying to think really logically about foods and how they fit into an overall healthy diet has helped us and so on.
I wouldn't lecture her about not using the "bad foods" label, but I see her as someone who would be better off not using it (as I am). I think a lot of the discussion of this is about the theoretical example, or about why it doesn't work for us. I really don't think anyone cares if you use the term.
What I disagreed with here, with OP's post, wasn't that he personally considers Cheetos a bad food for him (I just consider it not tasty). It was that he seemed to be misunderstanding comments that there are no bad foods to mean that people didn't think there were differences between foods.
Your posts seem like you think I'm trying to change your mind about or telling you not to do something.
Personally I don't think it's bad to feel guilt when you overeat or have been eating poorly, and not being familiar with the post of which speak I can only say that feeling guilt over eating bread within the confines of a balanced diet seems like an issue beyond what I think calling or not calling foods good/bad would be likely to help. But it's hard to say since I only have your interpretation to go on and honestly I rarely interpret posts in the same manner as you.
I'm not sure what you mean by "bad" in this context, but given my own personal experience and the dozens of posts I've seen around here, it doesn't seem like guilt around food choices is an emotion that helps drive anyone forward or make lasting changes in their life. It seems to only lead to misery, more emotional choices around food, and (sometimes) over-compensation. In this sense, I would say that guilt over food choices (or making food choice a moral issue) is a "bad" thing. It leads to more unhappiness in the world, something that we don't really need more of.
My experience has been very different. I usually feel some level of guilt when I overindulge. I think it's one of the things that has helped me control my weight.
I'm glad it works for you, but several people are trying to tell you that this type of thinking has been actively harmful to them.
Seriously? Wow, I totally didn't get that.
I'm not sure what response you are looking for. I have never (never, ever, ever) told anyone that they needed to think of food as good/bad. Never. Never, ever.
But if your intent is to assimilate me to the 'never call food good/bad' mindset it's not working.
I'm not looking for any particular response from you. I'm engaging in conversation.
I'm not sure how to take your comment about "assimilation." Can people share their point of view with you without looking to "assimilate" you?
Oh sure. It seemed to me as if you were trying to convince me of something. My bad. ::flowerforyou::0 -
I just showed up and jumped straight to page 11.
Did I miss anything that doesn't happen every single time one of these threads shows up?0 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »I just showed up and jumped straight to page 11.
Did I miss anything that doesn't happen every single time one of these threads shows up?
Newp.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I have no medical reason not to eat any food, I still maintain that there are bad and good foods. I have never seen anything on this site or elsewhere to make me think otherwise.
Examples and rationale?
Its only in this forum that people insist we have to eat all foods moderately or you are a failed human being.
Sigh. Except that no one here has been saying you have to eat all foods moderately. No one.
I am. I demand everyone here eat moderate amounts of all possible foods this instant. It doesn't matter if you like them, or have a medical condition for it, you must do so now.
You, sir, are rather immoderate in your moderation.0 -
Soooo... We can't talk about good and bad weather any longer? Yikes! I think it's bad that the words good and bad cannot be used here without inciting a moralistic argument.0
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »distinctlybeautiful wrote: »I have been using MFP for some time, but have only recently started visiting this board. I find myself surprised at the number of people who say such things as "there are no bad foods" or "you can eat whatever you want" when they no nothing of the individual circumstances of the poster.
We know that people respond differently to medicines; we know that they respond differently to alcohol. Yet people seem to assume that whatever works for them apply to everyone else.
I find that most of the "itos" food group are bad foods for me. Consider the following situation:
I typically save calories so that if I get hungry in the evening, there is room for a snack. So lets assume I am going to "spend" 160 calories.
My choices:
A. Eat 1/4 cup of nuts B. 160 calories of raw veggies with hummus or C. 160 calories of Cheetos
If I were to select A or B, I would end up more full the whole evening, and I would experiences no strong urges to eat the entire pantry. If I were to select C., I would be REALLY hungry 15 minutes later and would have to fight back INTENSE cravings to eat more.
Now my willpower is usually very good; but even if it holds up, I am starving all night. However, if I have had a really bad day or am otherwise exhausted and feeling stressed, I may be vulnerable to succumbing.
Success for me means eliminating "itos". I have gone as long as 6-7 years without touching these foods, and my weight fluctuations are within about a 15-20 pound band. This band is much larger when I eat these kind of foods.
I understand that this does not apply to everyone. But I think we need to be careful about telling people they can succeed while eating everything they like to eat, because there are people for whom this generalization is simply not true.
It's the word "bad" people tend to object to. You're attaching morals to food.
Bad has many meaning that have nothing to do with morals. Substandard, poor, inferior, faulty, etc.
But the multiple posts I've seen here from people talking about the guilt they feel for making "bad" choices indicate that, for many people, "bad" is used in a moral sense.
Especially for many women, choosing "good" foods (and denying oneself "bad" ones) has a heavy component of moralism. Self-control is seen as moral, indulgence is seen as bad.
Yes, some people may be using "bad" to mean "substandard." But many people clearly are not.
Well sure, people are different. I don't think anyone has said that everyone needs to call foods bad, have they? To each his own.
There was a thread not long ago where the OP was arguing just that -- she was saying "admit it, these foods ARE bad, you just don't want to admit you are eating BAD food."
Oh, well I stand corrected. One poster has said it. Still think the posts saying "you shouldn't think of food as good/bad" are in the lead, though.
What about something like the post I mentioned earlier, with an OP talking about how she felt such guilt and shame whenever she ate a bad food like bread. I think for someone like that it is helpful (and kind) to encourage them to not think of foods as bad and good and certainly not to attach guilt and shame to eating decisions, and to talk about how trying to think really logically about foods and how they fit into an overall healthy diet has helped us and so on.
I wouldn't lecture her about not using the "bad foods" label, but I see her as someone who would be better off not using it (as I am). I think a lot of the discussion of this is about the theoretical example, or about why it doesn't work for us. I really don't think anyone cares if you use the term.
What I disagreed with here, with OP's post, wasn't that he personally considers Cheetos a bad food for him (I just consider it not tasty). It was that he seemed to be misunderstanding comments that there are no bad foods to mean that people didn't think there were differences between foods.
Your posts seem like you think I'm trying to change your mind about or telling you not to do something.
Personally I don't think it's bad to feel guilt when you overeat or have been eating poorly, and not being familiar with the post of which speak I can only say that feeling guilt over eating bread within the confines of a balanced diet seems like an issue beyond what I think calling or not calling foods good/bad would be likely to help. But it's hard to say since I only have your interpretation to go on and honestly I rarely interpret posts in the same manner as you.
I'm not sure what you mean by "bad" in this context, but given my own personal experience and the dozens of posts I've seen around here, it doesn't seem like guilt around food choices is an emotion that helps drive anyone forward or make lasting changes in their life. It seems to only lead to misery, more emotional choices around food, and (sometimes) over-compensation. In this sense, I would say that guilt over food choices (or making food choice a moral issue) is a "bad" thing. It leads to more unhappiness in the world, something that we don't really need more of.
My experience has been very different. I usually feel some level of guilt when I overindulge. I think it's one of the things that has helped me control my weight.
I'm glad it works for you, but several people are trying to tell you that this type of thinking has been actively harmful to them.
Seriously? Wow, I totally didn't get that.
I'm not sure what response you are looking for. I have never (never, ever, ever) told anyone that they needed to think of food as good/bad. Never. Never, ever.
But if your intent is to assimilate me to the 'never call food good/bad' mindset it's not working.
I'm not looking for any particular response from you. I'm engaging in conversation.
I'm not sure how to take your comment about "assimilation." Can people share their point of view with you without looking to "assimilate" you?
Oh sure. It seemed to me as if you were trying to convince me of something. My bad. ::flowerforyou::
In many instances where people don't see things eye-to-eye, people may share what they think the most compelling argument for their POV is. But that doesn't mean they are looking for only one response from someone else. When I state an argument online, I'm much more interested in whatever that person's authentic and genuine response is (whether it's "Oh, now I see what you're saying and I agree" or "I see what you're saying, I still don't agree, and here is why . . . ").
Do I think my argument is convincing? Yes, I do. Am I looking for a specific response from you? No.
(I will also note it would be especially silly for me to expect a certain response from you because I don't think I've ever seen you change your mind or alter your position once).0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »distinctlybeautiful wrote: »I have been using MFP for some time, but have only recently started visiting this board. I find myself surprised at the number of people who say such things as "there are no bad foods" or "you can eat whatever you want" when they no nothing of the individual circumstances of the poster.
We know that people respond differently to medicines; we know that they respond differently to alcohol. Yet people seem to assume that whatever works for them apply to everyone else.
I find that most of the "itos" food group are bad foods for me. Consider the following situation:
I typically save calories so that if I get hungry in the evening, there is room for a snack. So lets assume I am going to "spend" 160 calories.
My choices:
A. Eat 1/4 cup of nuts B. 160 calories of raw veggies with hummus or C. 160 calories of Cheetos
If I were to select A or B, I would end up more full the whole evening, and I would experiences no strong urges to eat the entire pantry. If I were to select C., I would be REALLY hungry 15 minutes later and would have to fight back INTENSE cravings to eat more.
Now my willpower is usually very good; but even if it holds up, I am starving all night. However, if I have had a really bad day or am otherwise exhausted and feeling stressed, I may be vulnerable to succumbing.
Success for me means eliminating "itos". I have gone as long as 6-7 years without touching these foods, and my weight fluctuations are within about a 15-20 pound band. This band is much larger when I eat these kind of foods.
I understand that this does not apply to everyone. But I think we need to be careful about telling people they can succeed while eating everything they like to eat, because there are people for whom this generalization is simply not true.
It's the word "bad" people tend to object to. You're attaching morals to food.
Bad has many meaning that have nothing to do with morals. Substandard, poor, inferior, faulty, etc.
But the multiple posts I've seen here from people talking about the guilt they feel for making "bad" choices indicate that, for many people, "bad" is used in a moral sense.
Especially for many women, choosing "good" foods (and denying oneself "bad" ones) has a heavy component of moralism. Self-control is seen as moral, indulgence is seen as bad.
Yes, some people may be using "bad" to mean "substandard." But many people clearly are not.
Well sure, people are different. I don't think anyone has said that everyone needs to call foods bad, have they? To each his own.
There was a thread not long ago where the OP was arguing just that -- she was saying "admit it, these foods ARE bad, you just don't want to admit you are eating BAD food."
Oh, well I stand corrected. One poster has said it. Still think the posts saying "you shouldn't think of food as good/bad" are in the lead, though.
What about something like the post I mentioned earlier, with an OP talking about how she felt such guilt and shame whenever she ate a bad food like bread. I think for someone like that it is helpful (and kind) to encourage them to not think of foods as bad and good and certainly not to attach guilt and shame to eating decisions, and to talk about how trying to think really logically about foods and how they fit into an overall healthy diet has helped us and so on.
I wouldn't lecture her about not using the "bad foods" label, but I see her as someone who would be better off not using it (as I am). I think a lot of the discussion of this is about the theoretical example, or about why it doesn't work for us. I really don't think anyone cares if you use the term.
What I disagreed with here, with OP's post, wasn't that he personally considers Cheetos a bad food for him (I just consider it not tasty). It was that he seemed to be misunderstanding comments that there are no bad foods to mean that people didn't think there were differences between foods.
Your posts seem like you think I'm trying to change your mind about or telling you not to do something.
Personally I don't think it's bad to feel guilt when you overeat or have been eating poorly, and not being familiar with the post of which speak I can only say that feeling guilt over eating bread within the confines of a balanced diet seems like an issue beyond what I think calling or not calling foods good/bad would be likely to help. But it's hard to say since I only have your interpretation to go on and honestly I rarely interpret posts in the same manner as you.
I'm not sure what you mean by "bad" in this context, but given my own personal experience and the dozens of posts I've seen around here, it doesn't seem like guilt around food choices is an emotion that helps drive anyone forward or make lasting changes in their life. It seems to only lead to misery, more emotional choices around food, and (sometimes) over-compensation. In this sense, I would say that guilt over food choices (or making food choice a moral issue) is a "bad" thing. It leads to more unhappiness in the world, something that we don't really need more of.
My experience has been very different. I usually feel some level of guilt when I overindulge. I think it's one of the things that has helped me control my weight.
I'm glad it works for you, but several people are trying to tell you that this type of thinking has been actively harmful to them.
Seriously? Wow, I totally didn't get that.
I'm not sure what response you are looking for. I have never (never, ever, ever) told anyone that they needed to think of food as good/bad. Never. Never, ever.
But if your intent is to assimilate me to the 'never call food good/bad' mindset it's not working.
I'm not looking for any particular response from you. I'm engaging in conversation.
I'm not sure how to take your comment about "assimilation." Can people share their point of view with you without looking to "assimilate" you?
Oh sure. It seemed to me as if you were trying to convince me of something. My bad. ::flowerforyou::
In many instances where people don't see things eye-to-eye, people may share what they think the most compelling argument for their POV is. But that doesn't mean they are looking for only one response from someone else. When I state an argument online, I'm much more interested in whatever that person's authentic and genuine response is (whether it's "Oh, now I see what you're saying and I agree" or "I see what you're saying, I still don't agree, and here is why . . . ").
Do I think my argument is convincing? Yes, I do. Am I looking for a specific response from you? No.
(I will also note it would be especially silly for me to expect a certain response from you because I don't think I've ever seen you change your mind or alter your position once).
Fair point. I can't think of an instance where anything I've read on MFP has changed my thinking re: food. But then I've never really had food issues I needed to correct. Other than overeating from time to time, but there really is only one way to correct that. 0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »distinctlybeautiful wrote: »I have been using MFP for some time, but have only recently started visiting this board. I find myself surprised at the number of people who say such things as "there are no bad foods" or "you can eat whatever you want" when they no nothing of the individual circumstances of the poster.
We know that people respond differently to medicines; we know that they respond differently to alcohol. Yet people seem to assume that whatever works for them apply to everyone else.
I find that most of the "itos" food group are bad foods for me. Consider the following situation:
I typically save calories so that if I get hungry in the evening, there is room for a snack. So lets assume I am going to "spend" 160 calories.
My choices:
A. Eat 1/4 cup of nuts B. 160 calories of raw veggies with hummus or C. 160 calories of Cheetos
If I were to select A or B, I would end up more full the whole evening, and I would experiences no strong urges to eat the entire pantry. If I were to select C., I would be REALLY hungry 15 minutes later and would have to fight back INTENSE cravings to eat more.
Now my willpower is usually very good; but even if it holds up, I am starving all night. However, if I have had a really bad day or am otherwise exhausted and feeling stressed, I may be vulnerable to succumbing.
Success for me means eliminating "itos". I have gone as long as 6-7 years without touching these foods, and my weight fluctuations are within about a 15-20 pound band. This band is much larger when I eat these kind of foods.
I understand that this does not apply to everyone. But I think we need to be careful about telling people they can succeed while eating everything they like to eat, because there are people for whom this generalization is simply not true.
It's the word "bad" people tend to object to. You're attaching morals to food.
Bad has many meaning that have nothing to do with morals. Substandard, poor, inferior, faulty, etc.
But the multiple posts I've seen here from people talking about the guilt they feel for making "bad" choices indicate that, for many people, "bad" is used in a moral sense.
Especially for many women, choosing "good" foods (and denying oneself "bad" ones) has a heavy component of moralism. Self-control is seen as moral, indulgence is seen as bad.
Yes, some people may be using "bad" to mean "substandard." But many people clearly are not.
Well sure, people are different. I don't think anyone has said that everyone needs to call foods bad, have they? To each his own.
There was a thread not long ago where the OP was arguing just that -- she was saying "admit it, these foods ARE bad, you just don't want to admit you are eating BAD food."
Oh, well I stand corrected. One poster has said it. Still think the posts saying "you shouldn't think of food as good/bad" are in the lead, though.
What about something like the post I mentioned earlier, with an OP talking about how she felt such guilt and shame whenever she ate a bad food like bread. I think for someone like that it is helpful (and kind) to encourage them to not think of foods as bad and good and certainly not to attach guilt and shame to eating decisions, and to talk about how trying to think really logically about foods and how they fit into an overall healthy diet has helped us and so on.
I wouldn't lecture her about not using the "bad foods" label, but I see her as someone who would be better off not using it (as I am). I think a lot of the discussion of this is about the theoretical example, or about why it doesn't work for us. I really don't think anyone cares if you use the term.
What I disagreed with here, with OP's post, wasn't that he personally considers Cheetos a bad food for him (I just consider it not tasty). It was that he seemed to be misunderstanding comments that there are no bad foods to mean that people didn't think there were differences between foods.
Your posts seem like you think I'm trying to change your mind about or telling you not to do something.
Personally I don't think it's bad to feel guilt when you overeat or have been eating poorly, and not being familiar with the post of which speak I can only say that feeling guilt over eating bread within the confines of a balanced diet seems like an issue beyond what I think calling or not calling foods good/bad would be likely to help. But it's hard to say since I only have your interpretation to go on and honestly I rarely interpret posts in the same manner as you.
I'm not sure what you mean by "bad" in this context, but given my own personal experience and the dozens of posts I've seen around here, it doesn't seem like guilt around food choices is an emotion that helps drive anyone forward or make lasting changes in their life. It seems to only lead to misery, more emotional choices around food, and (sometimes) over-compensation. In this sense, I would say that guilt over food choices (or making food choice a moral issue) is a "bad" thing. It leads to more unhappiness in the world, something that we don't really need more of.
My experience has been very different. I usually feel some level of guilt when I overindulge. I think it's one of the things that has helped me control my weight.
Edit: On second thought, I think regret might be a better description. Unless I was sneaking cookies behind my mom's back or something. Not that I personally ever did that.
I would consider regret a very different reaction than guilt or shame, which I think typically can be counterproductive.
Also, I think regret for overindulging or going off plan is not the same as feeling bad about eating a particular food within a plan. For example, I go off plan plenty of times and recognize it as such and figure out what the issue was or how to do better (or I realize it was a one-off day and don't worry about it). That I'd call logical thinking about food.
The illogical thinking that can be destructive, as others have discussed, is the idea that you ate a bad food so are bad or ruined everything -- even if there are no logical negative results from eating a donut within your calories on a day where you overall ate a pretty good diet.
Again, I get that you are not prone to this kind of thinking, and that's great for you, but I think it's really common.
I'm also (again) not trying to tell you not to think of/call foods as bad and good if you want. If you can happily eat something you label a bad food, we are different as to what the label means to us, cool. I think the confusion came in because you have jumped into threads where the OP was arguing that foods SHOULD be labeled bad and good or JUST ARE bad and good, and seemed to be arguing for that position.
I guess I'm really not seeing any remaining disagreement, but you seem to think there is one, which I find puzzling.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »distinctlybeautiful wrote: »I have been using MFP for some time, but have only recently started visiting this board. I find myself surprised at the number of people who say such things as "there are no bad foods" or "you can eat whatever you want" when they no nothing of the individual circumstances of the poster.
We know that people respond differently to medicines; we know that they respond differently to alcohol. Yet people seem to assume that whatever works for them apply to everyone else.
I find that most of the "itos" food group are bad foods for me. Consider the following situation:
I typically save calories so that if I get hungry in the evening, there is room for a snack. So lets assume I am going to "spend" 160 calories.
My choices:
A. Eat 1/4 cup of nuts B. 160 calories of raw veggies with hummus or C. 160 calories of Cheetos
If I were to select A or B, I would end up more full the whole evening, and I would experiences no strong urges to eat the entire pantry. If I were to select C., I would be REALLY hungry 15 minutes later and would have to fight back INTENSE cravings to eat more.
Now my willpower is usually very good; but even if it holds up, I am starving all night. However, if I have had a really bad day or am otherwise exhausted and feeling stressed, I may be vulnerable to succumbing.
Success for me means eliminating "itos". I have gone as long as 6-7 years without touching these foods, and my weight fluctuations are within about a 15-20 pound band. This band is much larger when I eat these kind of foods.
I understand that this does not apply to everyone. But I think we need to be careful about telling people they can succeed while eating everything they like to eat, because there are people for whom this generalization is simply not true.
It's the word "bad" people tend to object to. You're attaching morals to food.
Bad has many meaning that have nothing to do with morals. Substandard, poor, inferior, faulty, etc.
But the multiple posts I've seen here from people talking about the guilt they feel for making "bad" choices indicate that, for many people, "bad" is used in a moral sense.
Especially for many women, choosing "good" foods (and denying oneself "bad" ones) has a heavy component of moralism. Self-control is seen as moral, indulgence is seen as bad.
Yes, some people may be using "bad" to mean "substandard." But many people clearly are not.
Well sure, people are different. I don't think anyone has said that everyone needs to call foods bad, have they? To each his own.
There was a thread not long ago where the OP was arguing just that -- she was saying "admit it, these foods ARE bad, you just don't want to admit you are eating BAD food."
Oh, well I stand corrected. One poster has said it. Still think the posts saying "you shouldn't think of food as good/bad" are in the lead, though.
What about something like the post I mentioned earlier, with an OP talking about how she felt such guilt and shame whenever she ate a bad food like bread. I think for someone like that it is helpful (and kind) to encourage them to not think of foods as bad and good and certainly not to attach guilt and shame to eating decisions, and to talk about how trying to think really logically about foods and how they fit into an overall healthy diet has helped us and so on.
I wouldn't lecture her about not using the "bad foods" label, but I see her as someone who would be better off not using it (as I am). I think a lot of the discussion of this is about the theoretical example, or about why it doesn't work for us. I really don't think anyone cares if you use the term.
What I disagreed with here, with OP's post, wasn't that he personally considers Cheetos a bad food for him (I just consider it not tasty). It was that he seemed to be misunderstanding comments that there are no bad foods to mean that people didn't think there were differences between foods.
Your posts seem like you think I'm trying to change your mind about or telling you not to do something.
Personally I don't think it's bad to feel guilt when you overeat or have been eating poorly, and not being familiar with the post of which speak I can only say that feeling guilt over eating bread within the confines of a balanced diet seems like an issue beyond what I think calling or not calling foods good/bad would be likely to help. But it's hard to say since I only have your interpretation to go on and honestly I rarely interpret posts in the same manner as you.
I'm not sure what you mean by "bad" in this context, but given my own personal experience and the dozens of posts I've seen around here, it doesn't seem like guilt around food choices is an emotion that helps drive anyone forward or make lasting changes in their life. It seems to only lead to misery, more emotional choices around food, and (sometimes) over-compensation. In this sense, I would say that guilt over food choices (or making food choice a moral issue) is a "bad" thing. It leads to more unhappiness in the world, something that we don't really need more of.
My experience has been very different. I usually feel some level of guilt when I overindulge. I think it's one of the things that has helped me control my weight.
Edit: On second thought, I think regret might be a better description. Unless I was sneaking cookies behind my mom's back or something. Not that I personally ever did that.
I would consider regret a very different reaction than guilt or shame, which I think typically can be counterproductive.
Also, I think regret for overindulging or going off plan is not the same as feeling bad about eating a particular food within a plan. For example, I go off plan plenty of times and recognize it as such and figure out what the issue was or how to do better (or I realize it was a one-off day and don't worry about it). That I'd call logical thinking about food.
The illogical thinking that can be destructive, as others have discussed, is the idea that you ate a bad food so are bad or ruined everything -- even if there are no logical negative results from eating a donut within your calories on a day where you overall ate a pretty good diet.
Again, I get that you are not prone to this kind of thinking, and that's great for you, but I think it's really common.
I'm also (again) not trying to tell you not to think of/call foods as bad and good if you want. If you can happily eat something you label a bad food, we are different as to what the label means to us, cool. I think the confusion came in because you have jumped into threads where the OP was arguing that foods SHOULD be labeled bad and good or JUST ARE bad and good, and seemed to be arguing for that position.
I guess I'm really not seeing any remaining disagreement, but you seem to think there is one, which I find puzzling.
I get the sense that there is disagreement because I keep getting several posts with opposing viewpoints to pretty much every one of my posts. And yes I do see the irony.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I have no medical reason not to eat any food, I still maintain that there are bad and good foods. I have never seen anything on this site or elsewhere to make me think otherwise.
Examples and rationale?
Its only in this forum that people insist we have to eat all foods moderately or you are a failed human being.
Sigh. Except that no one here has been saying you have to eat all foods moderately. No one.
I am. I demand everyone here eat moderate amounts of all possible foods this instant. It doesn't matter if you like them, or have a medical condition for it, you must do so now.
You, sir, are rather immoderate in your moderation.
I follow moderation Apollo style -moderation in all things, including moderation in moderation.0 -
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Soooo... We can't talk about good and bad weather any longer? Yikes! I think it's bad that the words good and bad cannot be used here without inciting a moralistic argument.
Read up the thread and you'll see bad weather isn't as helpful as saying "the weather here today is rainy and I don't care for it," because while you might say that is bad weather, Shirley Manson would say your bad weather is the only time she's happy.0 -
Soooo... We can't talk about good and bad weather any longer? Yikes! I think it's bad that the words good and bad cannot be used here without inciting a moralistic argument.
Read up the thread and you'll see bad weather isn't as helpful as saying "the weather here today is rainy and I don't care for it," because while you might say that is bad weather, Shirley Manson would say your bad weather is the only time she's happy.
+10 -
Soooo... We can't talk about good and bad weather any longer? Yikes! I think it's bad that the words good and bad cannot be used here without inciting a moralistic argument.
Read up the thread and you'll see bad weather isn't as helpful as saying "the weather here today is rainy and I don't care for it," because while you might say that is bad weather, Shirley Manson would say your bad weather is the only time she's happy.
What!? That's garbage!0
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