20 Rep Squat Program
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I'm not saying 1 rep wasn't important- and ultimately that IS what 20 reps will do for you but at the heart of it- it's based on a 5 rep max.
I'm a powerlifter- my most important goal is putting weight on the bar as well- but this program isn't designed around the 1 rep max. I think if you're using that as the base number to work off of for a program like this- you're likely to A. not get the most out of it- and B. going to over tax yourself much more quickly- leading to the A result.
I don't care if you want to trial and error your program- but I just wanted to make it clear THIS specific program IS based on a 5 rep max- and based on your previous post it wasn't clear that you understood that.
You're free to do what ever you want- I personally don't care- so no need to go ham on trying to logic me to death on it.3 -
The problem I already see with this is that, unlike my 1RM program, there are no drop/work sets to increase the base of strength in order to attempt the next higher weight. I'll have to see if I need to incorporate the drop/work sets w/the 20 rep program or if it's even realistic or practical to do so.
I understand what you're trying to do. It is thought out and logical. As far as what you state above, you shouldn't need the drop sets because of the number of reps accounting for your volume.
My only contention back to you would be training efficiency. You're training 2x a day, 5 days a week (I don't know for how long). I'm training 3x a week, each about 45-60 min. The first time I ran this program, I added 50lbs to my max squat in 6 weeks. The way you've laid out your program, you'll add 50lbs in 10 weeks *if* you can maintain adding the 5lbs every Friday. I'd contend the strict program give you more bang for your buck.
Also, that was measured added to my max...the theoretical(which you are using) went from 315 to 458...so really those 10 weeks might actually be more like 29 weeks. Food for thought.1 -
If all goes very, very well, my 20 rep sets will finish at 220, so my first time ever lifting 225 could be for close to 20 reps (at least that's what I'm hoping).
I did something like this. My first time hitting 300 I was shaky as all get out, so I backed down to 225 for lots of reps (5-10 sets of 10 reps) for a few months before trying 300 again. Lo and behold, not only did I get a solid 300, but actually managed 315 for a set of 5 that day.
Incidentally, I tried the same theory for breaking past 400, sticking with sets of 10 at a lower weight before doing a heavy single. It worked (sort of), allowing me a decent-ish 405, though definitely not a set of five.
Unfortunately, as I approached 500 (got up to 485 1RM), I didn't have the time to try the same tactic before I hurt my shoulder benching and had to miss out on a few months' of lifting. After returning I've never come close to that weight again (squatting 405 felt like my spine was being driven through the ground), and as I'm pushing 40 next summer I may have missed my window of opportunity, especially since work isn't allowing me long daily workouts anymore.
But the premise remains solid. Good luck to you!
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how much are you jumping up each lift?
I think you are misunderstanding a little bit- this program is an actual program- not just something he's doing randomly- he has tweaked it a little bit- but the base model still remains.
And at the heart of this program is the fact you are NOT using your 1RMP to plan- the 20 rep program uses your 5 rep max to work up from.
I understand completely what the OP is doing. It's just not what I want to do.
I use to do SL 5x5 and SL 3x5 but I've been doing a daily 1RM program of my own design with success for DL & SQT (adapted from published programs). I described above the DL program that I am doing this week. It is not a randomly designed program. There is thought, structure and purpose behind it.
Designing a lifting program is not rocket science and I believe that most (if not all) existing programs were "discovered" based on trial & error as tested by the author or by an adaptation of an existing program based on the learned weaknesses or limitations of that program and the specific needs/goals of the person who modified it.
I am in the latter camp. I am not interested in and have no need to set 5x5 as my lifting objective. All strength charts and lift calculators are based on a 1RM lift or equivalent.
So, my main objective is simply to get stronger using the 1RM as the standard of measurement. This is the same whether I do only 1 rep or 20. As long as I am progressively increasing my 1RM (or equivalent) then I am getting stronger. That's all that I care about.
Unlike SL & SS, I do NOT immediately increase the weight after I have lifted a higher weight. I continue to lift at that weight for at least 4 days and only attempt a higher weight at +5# on the 5th day. This allows for developing a foundation of strength upon which to attempt the next higher weight, something that is lacking in SL and SS.
Another important part of my 1RM program are the 3 drop/work sets which are based on the 1RM +5# equivalent. These sets are what actually build the strength to do the lift at the next level, which are also lacking in the SL & SS.
This 1RM program has worked well for me in the DL by helping me to overcome a sticking point at 290 and increasing my 1RM/PR in DL to 315 in just a month. It has also worked well in increasing my 1RM/PR in SQT from 220 to 240 over the same time period.
However, I'm finding it difficult to continue doing the 1RM program for the SQT because the weight at 1RM is just getting too heavy IMO for me to continue to do it safely, which accounts for my interest in the 20 rep program. I should add that I already switched to a 10 rep 1RM equivalent set because of this concern, before thinking about switching to a 20 rep 1RM equivalent set at an even lower weight instead.
Turning to the 20 rep program, my current 1RM/PR for the SQT is 240. According to the Strength Levels calculator, 1x20x144# is the 1RM 240 equivalent, which I did last night and will do again tonight. The 1RM 245 equivalent is 1x20x147 (a 3# increase) which I will try to do the day after tomorrow (my 5th training day this week). If I fail to do the 20x147, I'll just do 20x144 the 1st 4 days and 20x147 the 5th day next week.
The problem I already see with this is that, unlike my 1RM program, there are no drop/work sets to increase the base of strength in order to attempt the next higher weight. I'll have to see if I need to incorporate the drop/work sets w/the 20 rep program or if it's even realistic or practical to do so.
We'll just have to see what happens . . . It's an experiment and will take some trial & error to perfect it according to my needs (assuming it's even possible to do so).
I should also add that I designed my 1RM program and am attempting to adapt the OP'S 20 rep SQT program ONLY for my personal use. I am not suggesting and do not intend that anyone else try to do what I am doing.
I am just conveying my thoughts and experiences on the topic, which may be of interest and value to others in designing a training program of their own.
I have a couple of questions and opinions:
I'm curious why you would use a 20 rep squat program if the goal is to increase 1rm strength in the squat?
Regarding drop sets -- the main purpose of this is to increase total training volume while (typically) remaining within a reasonable intensity threshold for the adaptations you're trying to obtain. I'm not sure this is necessary or even a good idea given the rather astounding weekly volume you're currently doing on this program.
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I have a couple of questions and opinions:
I'm curious why you would use a 20 rep squat program if the goal is to increase 1rm strength in the squat?
As I mentioned above, my goal is to increase strength using the 1RM (or its equivalent) as the basis of measurement. Doesn't matter in terms of strength progression if I do 1RM or 20 reps equivalent to the 1RM. As long as I'm increasing the weight lifted over time, I am getting stronger.
However, it makes a huge difference in terms of risk of injury to me personally if I do a 1RM SQT lift at max weight vs the 20 rep equivalent of the 1RM weight. Currently, it's the difference between 240# vs 144# on the bar.
The back squat is not my best lift. I can do it w/proper form and I have actually done a 1RM at 240# (which is 1.5x my BW) but I have hurt myself seriously doing squats in the past and the possibility of another injury is always in the back of my mind. The bar is just feeling way too heavy on my back now and I just don't want to risk injury (more than necessary) again.
Doing 20 reps at 144# daily is a lot easier for me to do than a 240 1RM daily and presents much less of a risk of injury. That's my reason for doing 20 reps daily instead. However, at some point, I will have to actually retest my ability to do a real 1RM at 240 or greater but this will just be 1 lift; not 4 lifts at 240 plus an attempt at 245 during the week, as I have been doing to date.Regarding drop sets -- the main purpose of this is to increase total training volume while (typically) remaining within a reasonable intensity threshold for the adaptations you're trying to obtain.
The purpose of doing drop sets in my 1RM program is not to increase training volume. My training volume is actually quite low. The purpose of the drop sets is to build the strength necessary to increase the weight lifted to 1RM + 5#.
So, all of my drop sets are actually work sets, which are set at the equivalent of 1RM+5# (or greater). For example, my current DL 1RM is 315#. I do 3 warm up sets at: 1x10x165, 1x6x215 and 1x3x265 and then do the 1RM at 315. This is to build muscle memory and the base strength to maintain my ability to lift at 315.
However, in order to increase my strength and the ability to lift at 320, I do 3 subsequent drop/work sets, which today were: 1x3x295=327, 1x6x270=325 and 1x9x245=325.
As I'm sure you know, the calculated 1RM weight doesn't always directly translate into the actual ability to do a single lift at the calculated 1RM but it obviously makes no sense to try to lift the heavier weight unless you've attempted to develop the additional strength necessary to do so.
What never made sense to me in SL 5x5 and SS 3x5 was to immediately increase the weight to be lifted in the next workout after you've successfully lifted the weight for the current session w/o doing anything to try to build the additional strength necessary to do so. That's what my drops sets are for.
In the current example, this week's DL drop sets were set at a calculated 1RM equivalent of 325. So, in theory, I should be able to do a 1RM of 325 but my next 1RM attempt tomorrow (the 5th day of the week) will only be at 320. If I achieve this, I will re-calculate my drop/work sets so that they are at the 1RM equivalent of 330 and attempt the next 1RM at 325 . . . and so on.
BTW, a 1RM of 320 in DL is 2x my BW was my original goal but 325 will put me in the "Elite" class (according to Strength Levels, if it is to be believed) for men my age (66) and weight (160). So, that is my current goal for the DL which I should be able to achieve by Xmas or New Year's Eve.I'm not sure this is necessary or even a good idea given the rather astounding weekly volume you're currently doing on this program.
I know that the conventional wisdom is to not do too much deadlifting because it's too hard on the body but the DL is my best lift and I never felt that the doing the very limited 1x5 DL set per week in SS or SL was enough.
After reading a variety of articles about doing daily squats and daily deadlifts and reviewing just about every recent DL workout program published and available on the Net, I decided to try to develop a 1RM program for both on my own. What I came up with is described above and it has worked very well for me, especially for the DL. It is no longer ideal for me in terms of the SQT for the reasons previously mentioned, which is why I'm experimenting w/the 20 rep option for SQTs instead.
However, I never felt that I was over-training or exhausted doing the 1RM program daily for boths SQTs and DLs. The reasons for this, I believe are: 1) there are actually a very limited number of sets/lifts involved in doing the program; 2) I take A LOT of rest between sets/lifts; 3) I usually do not do DLs and SQTs during the same workout session -- I do DLs in the AM or afternoon and I do SQTs in the PM at least 6 hours after I do DLs -- and this gives me more than enough time for rest and recovery between workout sessions; 4) I do not do any lifting at all on the weekend, which again gives me more than enough time to fully recover from 1 week to the next and 5) I only do a few other lifts and exercises -- the BP, OHP, Rows and Farmer's Walks plus pushups/pullups and dips (which together I consider equivalent to a separate "lift") -- but I arrange my schedule so that I do not do more than 2 different lifts a session, which minimizes the possibility of over-training.
It also helps that I'm retired, live alone and have a fully equipped gym in my garage.
So, it's easy for me to do all this. I actually view doing my workouts as my job and devote all of my spare time to doing them. It would not be so easy for people who are married, have children, regular jobs and other responsibilities that would interfere w/the time/focus necessary to do so.0 -
I appreciate the thorough reply. I thought you mentioned your goal was to increase your 1rm but I appreciate you clarifying that.
We may be saying the same thing indirectly but what I was getting at with drop sets is still correct. The reason the drop sets are contributing to the development of strength is because they are providing additional volume within an appropriate intensity range towards your goal. (You are getting additional training stimulus using a loading range that is specific to the goal).
Regarding Starting Strength and SL the reason it makes sense has more to do with the idea that these programs are designed for sub-intermediate level lifters (as far as training experience and distance from genetic limits) and so this population does not require additional training volume to add weight to the barbell. Of course that only lasts for so long until a slower rate of progression is needed.
So when you say "why add weight without doing anything to build the necessary strength" - in the population that those programs are designed for, they are doing enough to build the necessary strength by simply doing it in 1 session. Until of course, that no longer works in which case they deload to dump cumulative fatigue, and ramp back up again and many times this does the job. It's far more efficient if the goal is to develop strength as fast as possible.
However, I think most people stick with these programs for too long.
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One additional question I'd have that I'd pose to anyone who cares to chime in:
Under what context would a 20 rep squat be better than something like 3x12, or 4x8, where you could use loading ranges that more closely resemble thresholds at which hypertrophy would occur at a greater rate, and heavier loads that would quite likely better translate to more absolute strength gains? Not to mention a greater number of repetitions at peak fiber recruitment?
To be clear, I think it's cool if someone wants to do these, as ballsy as they sound. I just question the contexts in which this is even close to optimal.
Sort of how I view GVT training in a way. In the majority of examples of GVT you could replace "some of that volume" with "something else" and end up with a much better program for most people and most goal sets.1 -
One additional question I'd have that I'd pose to anyone who cares to chime in:
Under what context would a 20 rep squat be better than something like 3x12, or 4x8, where you could use loading ranges that more closely resemble thresholds at which hypertrophy would occur at a greater rate, and heavier loads that would quite likely better translate to more absolute strength gains? Not to mention a greater number of repetitions at peak fiber recruitment?
To be clear, I think it's cool if someone wants to do these, as ballsy as they sound. I just question the contexts in which this is even close to optimal.
Sort of how I view GVT training in a way. In the majority of examples of GVT you could replace "some of that volume" with "something else" and end up with a much better program for most people and most goal sets.
@sidesteel to answer your question...I don't know...I just know my experience. I'm still young in my lifting career and had read about the 20 rep program and had seen @JoRocka post about doing it. I was doing 5/3/1, but found that on my 5's week, I was getting up in the low teens and felt like I might black out from lack of oxygen even though I thought my muscles could do more. (Maybe I just have those slow twitch muscles that are better for endurance instead of speed/power.) This is meant to be a short program and not a training program that you can do indefinitely. 6 weeks +/-.
All I know that the first time I ran it this summer, my 1RM went up 50lbs in 6 weeks. 3x12 or 4x8 might be better...all I know is this worked for me once and I'm trying it again. If nothing else, it's a test in mental fortitude that helped me grind out some sessions afterward.0 -
Thanks, and hopefully you don't take my comments as dickish as they might seem, lol. I'm glad it's working for you and given the results you've gotten I can't blame you for doing it again.0
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Thanks, and hopefully you don't take my comments as dickish as they might seem, lol. I'm glad it's working for you and given the results you've gotten I can't blame you for doing it again.
No dickish-ness taken lol. It's a legitimate question, I just don't have a good answer as to WHY it works, but it does for lots of people. If you ever have a 6 week break in programming, I would recommend you give it a try. Just take your current 5RM, subtract 90 lbs and then squat 3x a week adding 5lbs each time. It doesn't really start to suck until about 3-4 weeks in. Then you just dread going to the gym LOL0 -
Thanks, and hopefully you don't take my comments as dickish as they might seem, lol. I'm glad it's working for you and given the results you've gotten I can't blame you for doing it again.
No dickish-ness taken lol. It's a legitimate question, I just don't have a good answer as to WHY it works, but it does for lots of people. If you ever have a 6 week break in programming, I would recommend you give it a try. Just take your current 5RM, subtract 90 lbs and then squat 3x a week adding 5lbs each time. It doesn't really start to suck until about 3-4 weeks in. Then you just dread going to the gym LOL
If I take my best 5rm and subtract 90 I don't think I could get more than about 15 reps and that would be a big PR as is.
I honestly don't see myself trying this but I'll certainly follow along on your next run of this
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So this morning was rough...and I knew it was going to be. I play an exhausting game of basketball Wednesday and was definitely feeling that in combination with Wednesday's squat and DL. Then yesterday I had a double header for volleyball. On my 30 min drive home, I got a flat tire and ended up not getting home until 9:30. Still had to take a shower and eat. Ended up eating a lower than usual calorie dinner (500ish cal) and didn't get to bed until 10:30. 5:45 came way too early for me LOL All of that to say that I was sore, tired and under-fed.
I was able to push through my squat and did 255 for all 20. Bench was where I felt the repercussions the most...210lbs. It felt heavy from the first set first rep. I was able to get all 5 for the first two sets, only 4 on the third (in video) and then 3 for the final two sets. I finished by dropping down to 135 and doing another 5 rep set. Row was...ehhh. I probably "cheated" a little with my legs, but oh well.
Squat 255x20
pin press 210x5,5,4,3,3 135x5
row 190 5x5
https://youtu.be/Xe_Mk03j1EE 0 -
One additional question I'd have that I'd pose to anyone who cares to chime in:
Under what context would a 20 rep squat be better than something like 3x12, or 4x8, where you could use loading ranges that more closely resemble thresholds at which hypertrophy would occur at a greater rate, and heavier loads that would quite likely better translate to more absolute strength gains? Not to mention a greater number of repetitions at peak fiber recruitment?
To be clear, I think it's cool if someone wants to do these, as ballsy as they sound. I just question the contexts in which this is even close to optimal.
Sort of how I view GVT training in a way. In the majority of examples of GVT you could replace "some of that volume" with "something else" and end up with a much better program for most people and most goal sets.
Unlike McCloud and JoRocka, for me the reason is partially just ignorance of other options
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My only other squat experience has been SL 5x5, and I was starting to be unhappy with how that was going. I was progressing, but I was starting to feel like I was adding weight to a shaky foundation --- there were some specific form and mobility issues that I wanted to work on, and I felt like I needed more endurance. A trainer told me when I was at 210 on SL that I had the leg strength to lift more, but that I needed better mobility and to tighten my upper back more and control my knees better. The 20 rep program seemed like a good way to build endurance for a while at lighter weight while still getting stronger. One thing I had read is that the longer time under the bar for a set of 20 forces you to keep your back tight and develops some strength there, which sounded good (don't know if that makes sense).
I am trying to be pretty aware of McCloud's remarks that this program is not meant for novice lifters (which I am) and also that for most people form tends to break down with lots of reps. So far (195 yesterday), it's been fairly easy -- my 5RM was only 220, so I started at 130 which is pretty light for a 190# guy. I know that the mental part of this is a big part of the program, and I will embrace that to the extent that I will try not to bail just because I'm tired, but I will definitely bail if I feel my form going. At this relatively light weight, I could grind out reps with bad form, but I am really committed to not doing that. I've been doing daily deep body ("third world") squats to try to improve my hip mobility and learn to keep my back straight in a squat, and squats do feel totally different now than they did 4 weeks ago when I started.1 -
One additional question I'd have that I'd pose to anyone who cares to chime in:
Under what context would a 20 rep squat be better than something like 3x12, or 4x8, where you could use loading ranges that more closely resemble thresholds at which hypertrophy would occur at a greater rate, and heavier loads that would quite likely better translate to more absolute strength gains? Not to mention a greater number of repetitions at peak fiber recruitment?
To be clear, I think it's cool if someone wants to do these, as ballsy as they sound. I just question the contexts in which this is even close to optimal.
Sort of how I view GVT training in a way. In the majority of examples of GVT you could replace "some of that volume" with "something else" and end up with a much better program for most people and most goal sets.
I cannot speak for others- or of anyone modifying the program for a long term program.
My understanding of the implementation of this program- and the reason why you would use are sort of faceets of the same square if you will. If you consider this program as a lego block- a "filler' 6 week program It is very temporary- and not something you run endless- or something you would use to prep you for a meet.
On a psychological level its' purely a gut check- it's one of the most mentally grueling 6 week programs I've ever done.
It's a little like sheiko/smolov where it's ALL THE SQUATS ALL THE TIME- you squat 3 times a week- so one of the first reasons I did it was because I needed to push my squats to a new level- I was plateaued at 200 pounds and felt like I was really struggling in a lot of ways. When you use your 5 rep max and subtract 90- the goal is to be able to squat your 5 rep max 20 times at the end of 6 weeks. you have no choice but to get better at squatting- and get more comfortable under more weight- it's just the nature of the product.
Thirdly this is an excellent, uncomplicated size program for your legs if you're looking to put on size.
This is not a program to be run regularly- I think anyone thinking this is a long term solution to their training is deeply misinformed.
For me this is a lego- something to do between cycles for strength training- it's a change of pace- a gut check and a way to up my base level of squat strength. I've used it once a year in the last 2 years- always when I'm bulking (I will again this year also)- and my 1 rep squat has gone from 200 to 275. I repped 225 for 6 this season- which is an all knew "base line" for me going forward. So it serves a purpose- but I think reading into it for long term training is misguided.1 -
@mreichard just speaking to other options, when you get done with the 20rep program, maybe look at wendler's 5/3/1. I found that I really liked it and the flexibility of it after moving on from SL5x5. It does have a much slower progression though, so if you're looking to add weight to your lifts quickly, you'll probably have to do extra sets after the main "work" sets. Get the book, it's all laid out in there.
As far as form and technique. I found that I had to widen my stance a bit to get proper depth for the mobility part. As far as keeping a tight back, the easiest way for me to do this is to bring my hands in as close as possible. If you feel a little loose in the back, try bringing your and placement in an inch at a time to find a good balance of still being able to get the bar back there with shoulder mobility, but having a nice tight back.1 -
To give my unscientific two cents, I believe the legs are a bit different when it comes to their ability to build muscle with more reps/work. How many heavy guys have you seen with just huge quads and calves that haven't stepped foot in the gym. Why is this? All they do is eat and walk. I have read about high rep squats and their ability to add muscle but had never consistently tried anything until recently. For the past four months I have done high rep leg press(back injury makes squating difficult) every four days. My strength has went through the roof and the size of my legs has increased dramatically all with just two working sets per workout of one exercise. I do one regular set and one deep stretching set with a pause at the bottom. Yesterday both my sets went for 100 reps...the most I have ever gotten.0
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Have nothing to put into this except to say- this was a great read.
I play mind games all the time and thought I was the only one
Both the daily reports and the one on one conversations were enlightening to say the least.
Thanks for the thread revival.
Cheers, h.0 -
middlehaitch wrote: »Have nothing to put into this except to say- this was a great read.
I play mind games all the time and thought I was the only one
Both the daily reports and the one on one conversations were enlightening to say the least.
Thanks for the thread revival.
Cheers, h.
Glad you've enjoyed them! I've done it as much for my own benefit and as just a place to keep record as anything, but it's nice to know others are getting something out of it0 -
To give my unscientific two cents, I believe the legs are a bit different when it comes to their ability to build muscle with more reps/work. How many heavy guys have you seen with just huge quads and calves that haven't stepped foot in the gym. Why is this? All they do is eat and walk. I have read about high rep squats and their ability to add muscle but had never consistently tried anything until recently. For the past four months I have done high rep leg press(back injury makes squating difficult) every four days. My strength has went through the roof and the size of my legs has increased dramatically all with just two working sets per workout of one exercise. I do one regular set and one deep stretching set with a pause at the bottom. Yesterday both my sets went for 100 reps...the most I have ever gotten.
I've read that legs respond differently as well. Are you using heavy weights? 200 reps seems insane0 -
Did 20x200 today, and I have to say the notion that you guys mentioned to think of them in groups of 5 really helped. Today was the first time that I was starting to wonder at about 8 reps if I was good for all 20 (didn't help that I was short on sleep and didn't eat well the 24 hours before). Focusing on 5 at a time made it feel like doing 4x5, except that I was standing under the bar between sets and the breaks were really short. Definitely easier than thinking of it as 20.0
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