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Low carb and vegetables
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I ate low starch, but got plenty of veg and some sweets on 1250. Feel free to look back to 2014, when I logged more consistently.
OK, let's run a report on April 2014, shall we?
So as I see you ate ice cream or gelato... twice, on 5th and 20th.
In both occasions, you went over your calorie allotment (1441 and 1568).
That should be already enough, to prove my point, but if we look closer, we can see that on April 5th you ate just 356 g of vegetables (no fruit), so slightly below the 400g recommendation...
April 5, 2014
FOODS Calories Carbs Fat Protein Cholest Sodium Sugars Fiber
Early Morning
Squash - Zucchini, includes skin, raw, 91 g 15 3g 0g 1g 0mg 9mg 2g 1g
Cauliflower - Raw, 80 g 20 4g 0g 2g 0mg 24mg 2g 2g
Pearson - Blackeye Peas, 1/4 cup (85g) (3oz) 59 11g 0g 4g 0mg 153mg 1g 3g
Beef - Loin, bottom sirloin butt, tri-tip steak, lean only, raw, 3 oz 131 0g 7g 18g 55mg 47mg 0g 0g
Oil - Olive, 0.3 tablespoon 36 0g 4g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Essential Everyday - 1% Low Fat Cottage Cheese, 1/2 cup (115g) 90 5g 2g 13g 10mg 450mg 4g 0g
Lunch
Butter - Unsalted, 1 tbsp 102 0g 12g 0g 31mg 2mg 0g 0g
Oil - Vegetable, canola, 1 tbsp 124 0g 14g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Tomatoes - Green, raw, 5 slice or wedge 23 5g 0g 1g 0mg 13mg 4g 1g
Beef - Short Ribs, 6 oz 330 0g 23g 39g 119mg 74mg 0g 0g
Potatoes - White, flesh and skin, raw, 200 g 140 31g 0g 3g 0mg 12mg 2g 5g
Wheat flour - White, all-purpose, enriched, bleached, 0.2 cup 91 19g 0g 3g 0mg 1mg 0g 1g
Afternoon
Bryers - Butter Pecan Ice Cream, 1 cup 280 36g 12g 4g 20mg 200mg 24g 0g
TOTAL: 1,441 114g 74g 88g 235mg 985mg 39g 13g
Point?
My question exactly.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I ate low starch, but got plenty of veg and some sweets on 1250. Feel free to look back to 2014, when I logged more consistently.
OK, let's run a report on April 2014, shall we?
So as I see you ate ice cream or gelato... twice, on 5th and 20th.
In both occasions, you went over your calorie allotment (1441 and 1568).
That should be already enough, to prove my point, but if we look closer, we can see that on April 5th you ate just 356 g of vegetables (no fruit), so slightly below the 400g recommendation...
April 5, 2014
FOODS Calories Carbs Fat Protein Cholest Sodium Sugars Fiber
Early Morning
Squash - Zucchini, includes skin, raw, 91 g 15 3g 0g 1g 0mg 9mg 2g 1g
Cauliflower - Raw, 80 g 20 4g 0g 2g 0mg 24mg 2g 2g
Pearson - Blackeye Peas, 1/4 cup (85g) (3oz) 59 11g 0g 4g 0mg 153mg 1g 3g
Beef - Loin, bottom sirloin butt, tri-tip steak, lean only, raw, 3 oz 131 0g 7g 18g 55mg 47mg 0g 0g
Oil - Olive, 0.3 tablespoon 36 0g 4g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Essential Everyday - 1% Low Fat Cottage Cheese, 1/2 cup (115g) 90 5g 2g 13g 10mg 450mg 4g 0g
Lunch
Butter - Unsalted, 1 tbsp 102 0g 12g 0g 31mg 2mg 0g 0g
Oil - Vegetable, canola, 1 tbsp 124 0g 14g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Tomatoes - Green, raw, 5 slice or wedge 23 5g 0g 1g 0mg 13mg 4g 1g
Beef - Short Ribs, 6 oz 330 0g 23g 39g 119mg 74mg 0g 0g
Potatoes - White, flesh and skin, raw, 200 g 140 31g 0g 3g 0mg 12mg 2g 5g
Wheat flour - White, all-purpose, enriched, bleached, 0.2 cup 91 19g 0g 3g 0mg 1mg 0g 1g
Afternoon
Bryers - Butter Pecan Ice Cream, 1 cup 280 36g 12g 4g 20mg 200mg 24g 0g
TOTAL: 1,441 114g 74g 88g 235mg 985mg 39g 13g
Point?...those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I think it was that while you seem to indicate (though don't specifically say) that you were able to restrict calories, eat sugary treats and eat plenty of veggies, the reviewed instances in which you did eat sugary treats you did not quite meet the standard veggie servings.
That suggests there's a connection, and there's not. Veggies are low cal, so one is not likely to limit veg to make room for sugar. My typical plan is to include a sugary treat when I have left over calories at the end of the day. I don't cut out veg to create a greater deficit -- I tend to eat more veg to have a more filling day and mostly based on what happens to be available. Low veg days are more likely just bad planning. (In that case, too few meals -- I have to eat 3 to get in my preferred veg amount when eating meat.)
Also, coming from someone who brags about eating few veg I think it's funny you are criticizing that day.
1. I don't brag about eating few veg. Stating that I don't like them is no more bragging than you noting that it is odd that people overeat on pasta and bread is bragging about not eating those foods. ETA: In fact, if anything, I would be bragging (not really, but I could see how you might think that) about eating more veggies now than I did before.
2. I did not criticize that day at all. In fact, I didn't even bring it up. You seemed to be at a loss for what someone else's "point" was for bringing it up. I only attempted to articulate my understanding of the debate in terms which I thought you would understand.0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I ate low starch, but got plenty of veg and some sweets on 1250. Feel free to look back to 2014, when I logged more consistently.
OK, let's run a report on April 2014, shall we?
So as I see you ate ice cream or gelato... twice, on 5th and 20th.
In both occasions, you went over your calorie allotment (1441 and 1568).
That should be already enough, to prove my point, but if we look closer, we can see that on April 5th you ate just 356 g of vegetables (no fruit), so slightly below the 400g recommendation...
April 5, 2014
FOODS Calories Carbs Fat Protein Cholest Sodium Sugars Fiber
Early Morning
Squash - Zucchini, includes skin, raw, 91 g 15 3g 0g 1g 0mg 9mg 2g 1g
Cauliflower - Raw, 80 g 20 4g 0g 2g 0mg 24mg 2g 2g
Pearson - Blackeye Peas, 1/4 cup (85g) (3oz) 59 11g 0g 4g 0mg 153mg 1g 3g
Beef - Loin, bottom sirloin butt, tri-tip steak, lean only, raw, 3 oz 131 0g 7g 18g 55mg 47mg 0g 0g
Oil - Olive, 0.3 tablespoon 36 0g 4g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Essential Everyday - 1% Low Fat Cottage Cheese, 1/2 cup (115g) 90 5g 2g 13g 10mg 450mg 4g 0g
Lunch
Butter - Unsalted, 1 tbsp 102 0g 12g 0g 31mg 2mg 0g 0g
Oil - Vegetable, canola, 1 tbsp 124 0g 14g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Tomatoes - Green, raw, 5 slice or wedge 23 5g 0g 1g 0mg 13mg 4g 1g
Beef - Short Ribs, 6 oz 330 0g 23g 39g 119mg 74mg 0g 0g
Potatoes - White, flesh and skin, raw, 200 g 140 31g 0g 3g 0mg 12mg 2g 5g
Wheat flour - White, all-purpose, enriched, bleached, 0.2 cup 91 19g 0g 3g 0mg 1mg 0g 1g
Afternoon
Bryers - Butter Pecan Ice Cream, 1 cup 280 36g 12g 4g 20mg 200mg 24g 0g
TOTAL: 1,441 114g 74g 88g 235mg 985mg 39g 13g
Yes, it proves a point about something alright. I imagine we'd disagree what point and who about it makes the point about though.0 -
I am more puzzled by the fact that I apparently ate canola oil and Bryers, neither of which I remembered having in my diet. Lots change in 2 years, I guess.0
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Studies have found that a person's dietary saturated fat is associated with insulin sensitivity. People eating less of it tend to have less diabetes, and slower of progression though prediabetes. This doesn't suggest to you that saturated fat affects diabetes? This most recent study found that it appears if the person's insulin control is poor because of skeletal muscle lacking insulin sensitivity, it is improved by replacing saturated fats with polyunsaturated fats. Now this isn't animal versus plant, but there is a tendency for animal and plant to have different portions of the two, saturated being more often animal in origin.lisawinning4losing wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »It's hard to find the WHO 5-a-day recommendations. According to Wikipedia, the WHO recommendation is a minimum of 400 grams of vegetables a day, excluding potatoes and other starchy tubers. And then there is a recommendation from a study out of University College, London, to double that recommendation, to 10-a-day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_A_Day
Oh, and here's the American iteration of 5-a-day, "More Matters," which adjusts the recommendations to anywhere from 2 to 6.5 cups of veggies/fruits a day, dependent on your caloric needs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruits_&_Veggies_–_More_Matters
http://www.fruitsandveggiesmorematters.org/
I also cannot find the original resolution, but here is an excerpt of the current recommendations:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs394/en/
So people keep referring to WHO recommendations, but the whole issue revolves around blatently ignoring the first recommendation:A healthy diet contains:- Fruits, vegetables, legumes (e.g. lentils, beans), nuts and whole grains (e.g. unprocessed maize, millet, oats, wheat, brown rice).
- At least 400 g (5 portions) of fruits and vegetables a day (2). Potatoes, sweet potatoes, cassava and other starchy roots are not classified as fruits or vegetables.
- Less than 10% of total energy intake from free sugars (2, 5) which is equivalent to 50 g (or around 12 level teaspoons) for a person of healthy body weight consuming approximately 2000 calories per day, but ideally less than 5% of total energy intake for additional health benefits (5). Most free sugars are added to foods or drinks by the manufacturer, cook or consumer, and can also be found in sugars naturally present in honey, syrups, fruit juices and fruit juice concentrates.
- Less than 30% of total energy intake from fats (1, 2, 3). Unsaturated fats (e.g. found in fish, avocado, nuts, sunflower, canola and olive oils) are preferable to saturated fats (e.g. found in fatty meat, butter, palm and coconut oil, cream, cheese, ghee and lard) (3). Industrial trans fats (found in processed food, fast food, snack food, fried food, frozen pizza, pies, cookies, margarines and spreads) are not part of a healthy diet.
- Less than 5 g of salt (equivalent to approximately 1 teaspoon) per day (6) and use iodized salt.
Guidelines that are very high in carbs don't work well for a lot of people suffering from blood sugar disorders. Many people also get blood lipid improvements with a lower carb diet. This thread is about eating vegetables on a low carb diet, not about eating them on a high carb diet.
Actually, the recommendation to limit saturated fats promotes blood sugar control.
Not to mention that many people have achieved blood sugar control through diet and exercise without having to go low carb.
Fat is much better for blood sugar control than carbs because it digests and absorbs into the bloodstream much more slowly, which means that it doesn't cause the spikes and drops in blood sugar that carbs cause. It keeps you more stable. It could very well be true that people have achieved blood sugar control without having to go "low carb", but telling people to cut animal fat is the old fashioned advice that we're now learning is wrong. We're even rethinking things like heart disease, since it's been shown the high blood sugar levels increase inflammation and damage the heart and arteries. Even the American Heart Association is now recommending that people limit their intake of sugar. Animal fat is a natural source of food, found in nature, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it.
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2015/03/how-carbohydrates-can-affect-your-heart-health/
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2016-03/kcl-epf031816.php
The idea of sugar spiking and lowering is a bit of a misunderstanding. Ideally, a healthy person's insulin will drop their glucose back to resting level quickly. That's the indicator that their body reacts to insulin and is very good at storing it.
The unhealthy problem is when blood sugar spikes and stays high the body stops reacting to the insulin signalling to store it.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I am more puzzled by the fact that I apparently ate canola oil and Bryers, neither of which I remembered having in my diet. Lots change in 2 years, I guess.
Lazy logging?
Actually, my vote is some crazy bug with entries you had used being deleted from the database and "close" ones replaced instead.
/conspiracytheory0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I am more puzzled by the fact that I apparently ate canola oil and Bryers, neither of which I remembered having in my diet. Lots change in 2 years, I guess.
Lazy logging?
Actually, my vote is some crazy bug with entries you had used being deleted from the database and "close" ones replaced instead.
/carbspiracytheory
FTFY
FYI, auddi and I are friends, the FTFY is not an attack.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I am more puzzled by the fact that I apparently ate canola oil and Bryers, neither of which I remembered having in my diet. Lots change in 2 years, I guess.
Lazy logging?
Actually, my vote is some crazy bug with entries you had used being deleted from the database and "close" ones replaced instead.
/carbspiracytheory
FTFY
FYI, auddi and I are friends, the FTFY is not an attack and we both agree that a massive bug with MFP is the most likely explanation because, just look around .0 -
lisawinning4losing wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »It's hard to find the WHO 5-a-day recommendations. According to Wikipedia, the WHO recommendation is a minimum of 400 grams of vegetables a day, excluding potatoes and other starchy tubers. And then there is a recommendation from a study out of University College, London, to double that recommendation, to 10-a-day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_A_Day
Oh, and here's the American iteration of 5-a-day, "More Matters," which adjusts the recommendations to anywhere from 2 to 6.5 cups of veggies/fruits a day, dependent on your caloric needs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruits_&_Veggies_–_More_Matters
http://www.fruitsandveggiesmorematters.org/
I also cannot find the original resolution, but here is an excerpt of the current recommendations:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs394/en/
So people keep referring to WHO recommendations, but the whole issue revolves around blatently ignoring the first recommendation:A healthy diet contains:- Fruits, vegetables, legumes (e.g. lentils, beans), nuts and whole grains (e.g. unprocessed maize, millet, oats, wheat, brown rice).
- At least 400 g (5 portions) of fruits and vegetables a day (2). Potatoes, sweet potatoes, cassava and other starchy roots are not classified as fruits or vegetables.
- Less than 10% of total energy intake from free sugars (2, 5) which is equivalent to 50 g (or around 12 level teaspoons) for a person of healthy body weight consuming approximately 2000 calories per day, but ideally less than 5% of total energy intake for additional health benefits (5). Most free sugars are added to foods or drinks by the manufacturer, cook or consumer, and can also be found in sugars naturally present in honey, syrups, fruit juices and fruit juice concentrates.
- Less than 30% of total energy intake from fats (1, 2, 3). Unsaturated fats (e.g. found in fish, avocado, nuts, sunflower, canola and olive oils) are preferable to saturated fats (e.g. found in fatty meat, butter, palm and coconut oil, cream, cheese, ghee and lard) (3). Industrial trans fats (found in processed food, fast food, snack food, fried food, frozen pizza, pies, cookies, margarines and spreads) are not part of a healthy diet.
- Less than 5 g of salt (equivalent to approximately 1 teaspoon) per day (6) and use iodized salt.
Guidelines that are very high in carbs don't work well for a lot of people suffering from blood sugar disorders. Many people also get blood lipid improvements with a lower carb diet. This thread is about eating vegetables on a low carb diet, not about eating them on a high carb diet.
Actually, the recommendation to limit saturated fats promotes blood sugar control.
Not to mention that many people have achieved blood sugar control through diet and exercise without having to go low carb.
Fat is much better for blood sugar control than carbs because it digests and absorbs into the bloodstream much more slowly, which means that it doesn't cause the spikes and drops in blood sugar that carbs cause. It keeps you more stable. It could very well be true that people have achieved blood sugar control without having to go "low carb", but telling people to cut animal fat is the old fashioned advice that we're now learning is wrong. We're even rethinking things like heart disease, since it's been shown the high blood sugar levels increase inflammation and damage the heart and arteries. Even the American Heart Association is now recommending that people limit their intake of sugar. Animal fat is a natural source of food, found in nature, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it.
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2015/03/how-carbohydrates-can-affect-your-heart-health/
i stopped reading at good carbs and bad carbs....0 -
lisawinning4losing wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »It's hard to find the WHO 5-a-day recommendations. According to Wikipedia, the WHO recommendation is a minimum of 400 grams of vegetables a day, excluding potatoes and other starchy tubers. And then there is a recommendation from a study out of University College, London, to double that recommendation, to 10-a-day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_A_Day
Oh, and here's the American iteration of 5-a-day, "More Matters," which adjusts the recommendations to anywhere from 2 to 6.5 cups of veggies/fruits a day, dependent on your caloric needs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruits_&_Veggies_–_More_Matters
http://www.fruitsandveggiesmorematters.org/
I also cannot find the original resolution, but here is an excerpt of the current recommendations:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs394/en/
So people keep referring to WHO recommendations, but the whole issue revolves around blatently ignoring the first recommendation:A healthy diet contains:- Fruits, vegetables, legumes (e.g. lentils, beans), nuts and whole grains (e.g. unprocessed maize, millet, oats, wheat, brown rice).
- At least 400 g (5 portions) of fruits and vegetables a day (2). Potatoes, sweet potatoes, cassava and other starchy roots are not classified as fruits or vegetables.
- Less than 10% of total energy intake from free sugars (2, 5) which is equivalent to 50 g (or around 12 level teaspoons) for a person of healthy body weight consuming approximately 2000 calories per day, but ideally less than 5% of total energy intake for additional health benefits (5). Most free sugars are added to foods or drinks by the manufacturer, cook or consumer, and can also be found in sugars naturally present in honey, syrups, fruit juices and fruit juice concentrates.
- Less than 30% of total energy intake from fats (1, 2, 3). Unsaturated fats (e.g. found in fish, avocado, nuts, sunflower, canola and olive oils) are preferable to saturated fats (e.g. found in fatty meat, butter, palm and coconut oil, cream, cheese, ghee and lard) (3). Industrial trans fats (found in processed food, fast food, snack food, fried food, frozen pizza, pies, cookies, margarines and spreads) are not part of a healthy diet.
- Less than 5 g of salt (equivalent to approximately 1 teaspoon) per day (6) and use iodized salt.
Guidelines that are very high in carbs don't work well for a lot of people suffering from blood sugar disorders. Many people also get blood lipid improvements with a lower carb diet. This thread is about eating vegetables on a low carb diet, not about eating them on a high carb diet.
Actually, the recommendation to limit saturated fats promotes blood sugar control.
Not to mention that many people have achieved blood sugar control through diet and exercise without having to go low carb.
Fat is much better for blood sugar control than carbs because it digests and absorbs into the bloodstream much more slowly, which means that it doesn't cause the spikes and drops in blood sugar that carbs cause. It keeps you more stable. It could very well be true that people have achieved blood sugar control without having to go "low carb", but telling people to cut animal fat is the old fashioned advice that we're now learning is wrong. We're even rethinking things like heart disease, since it's been shown the high blood sugar levels increase inflammation and damage the heart and arteries. Even the American Heart Association is now recommending that people limit their intake of sugar. Animal fat is a natural source of food, found in nature, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it.
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2015/03/how-carbohydrates-can-affect-your-heart-health/
i stopped reading at good carbs and bad carbs....
BG meters are very judgemental about where your food came from...0 -
lisawinning4losing wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »It's hard to find the WHO 5-a-day recommendations. According to Wikipedia, the WHO recommendation is a minimum of 400 grams of vegetables a day, excluding potatoes and other starchy tubers. And then there is a recommendation from a study out of University College, London, to double that recommendation, to 10-a-day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_A_Day
Oh, and here's the American iteration of 5-a-day, "More Matters," which adjusts the recommendations to anywhere from 2 to 6.5 cups of veggies/fruits a day, dependent on your caloric needs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruits_&_Veggies_–_More_Matters
http://www.fruitsandveggiesmorematters.org/
I also cannot find the original resolution, but here is an excerpt of the current recommendations:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs394/en/
So people keep referring to WHO recommendations, but the whole issue revolves around blatently ignoring the first recommendation:A healthy diet contains:- Fruits, vegetables, legumes (e.g. lentils, beans), nuts and whole grains (e.g. unprocessed maize, millet, oats, wheat, brown rice).
- At least 400 g (5 portions) of fruits and vegetables a day (2). Potatoes, sweet potatoes, cassava and other starchy roots are not classified as fruits or vegetables.
- Less than 10% of total energy intake from free sugars (2, 5) which is equivalent to 50 g (or around 12 level teaspoons) for a person of healthy body weight consuming approximately 2000 calories per day, but ideally less than 5% of total energy intake for additional health benefits (5). Most free sugars are added to foods or drinks by the manufacturer, cook or consumer, and can also be found in sugars naturally present in honey, syrups, fruit juices and fruit juice concentrates.
- Less than 30% of total energy intake from fats (1, 2, 3). Unsaturated fats (e.g. found in fish, avocado, nuts, sunflower, canola and olive oils) are preferable to saturated fats (e.g. found in fatty meat, butter, palm and coconut oil, cream, cheese, ghee and lard) (3). Industrial trans fats (found in processed food, fast food, snack food, fried food, frozen pizza, pies, cookies, margarines and spreads) are not part of a healthy diet.
- Less than 5 g of salt (equivalent to approximately 1 teaspoon) per day (6) and use iodized salt.
Guidelines that are very high in carbs don't work well for a lot of people suffering from blood sugar disorders. Many people also get blood lipid improvements with a lower carb diet. This thread is about eating vegetables on a low carb diet, not about eating them on a high carb diet.
Actually, the recommendation to limit saturated fats promotes blood sugar control.
Not to mention that many people have achieved blood sugar control through diet and exercise without having to go low carb.
Fat is much better for blood sugar control than carbs because it digests and absorbs into the bloodstream much more slowly, which means that it doesn't cause the spikes and drops in blood sugar that carbs cause. It keeps you more stable. It could very well be true that people have achieved blood sugar control without having to go "low carb", but telling people to cut animal fat is the old fashioned advice that we're now learning is wrong. We're even rethinking things like heart disease, since it's been shown the high blood sugar levels increase inflammation and damage the heart and arteries. Even the American Heart Association is now recommending that people limit their intake of sugar. Animal fat is a natural source of food, found in nature, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it.
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2015/03/how-carbohydrates-can-affect-your-heart-health/
i stopped reading at good carbs and bad carbs....
BG meters are very judgemental about where your food came from...
so they are not supportive like MFP is????0 -
lisawinning4losing wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »It's hard to find the WHO 5-a-day recommendations. According to Wikipedia, the WHO recommendation is a minimum of 400 grams of vegetables a day, excluding potatoes and other starchy tubers. And then there is a recommendation from a study out of University College, London, to double that recommendation, to 10-a-day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_A_Day
Oh, and here's the American iteration of 5-a-day, "More Matters," which adjusts the recommendations to anywhere from 2 to 6.5 cups of veggies/fruits a day, dependent on your caloric needs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruits_&_Veggies_–_More_Matters
http://www.fruitsandveggiesmorematters.org/
I also cannot find the original resolution, but here is an excerpt of the current recommendations:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs394/en/
So people keep referring to WHO recommendations, but the whole issue revolves around blatently ignoring the first recommendation:A healthy diet contains:- Fruits, vegetables, legumes (e.g. lentils, beans), nuts and whole grains (e.g. unprocessed maize, millet, oats, wheat, brown rice).
- At least 400 g (5 portions) of fruits and vegetables a day (2). Potatoes, sweet potatoes, cassava and other starchy roots are not classified as fruits or vegetables.
- Less than 10% of total energy intake from free sugars (2, 5) which is equivalent to 50 g (or around 12 level teaspoons) for a person of healthy body weight consuming approximately 2000 calories per day, but ideally less than 5% of total energy intake for additional health benefits (5). Most free sugars are added to foods or drinks by the manufacturer, cook or consumer, and can also be found in sugars naturally present in honey, syrups, fruit juices and fruit juice concentrates.
- Less than 30% of total energy intake from fats (1, 2, 3). Unsaturated fats (e.g. found in fish, avocado, nuts, sunflower, canola and olive oils) are preferable to saturated fats (e.g. found in fatty meat, butter, palm and coconut oil, cream, cheese, ghee and lard) (3). Industrial trans fats (found in processed food, fast food, snack food, fried food, frozen pizza, pies, cookies, margarines and spreads) are not part of a healthy diet.
- Less than 5 g of salt (equivalent to approximately 1 teaspoon) per day (6) and use iodized salt.
Guidelines that are very high in carbs don't work well for a lot of people suffering from blood sugar disorders. Many people also get blood lipid improvements with a lower carb diet. This thread is about eating vegetables on a low carb diet, not about eating them on a high carb diet.
Actually, the recommendation to limit saturated fats promotes blood sugar control.
Not to mention that many people have achieved blood sugar control through diet and exercise without having to go low carb.
Fat is much better for blood sugar control than carbs because it digests and absorbs into the bloodstream much more slowly, which means that it doesn't cause the spikes and drops in blood sugar that carbs cause. It keeps you more stable. It could very well be true that people have achieved blood sugar control without having to go "low carb", but telling people to cut animal fat is the old fashioned advice that we're now learning is wrong. We're even rethinking things like heart disease, since it's been shown the high blood sugar levels increase inflammation and damage the heart and arteries. Even the American Heart Association is now recommending that people limit their intake of sugar. Animal fat is a natural source of food, found in nature, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it.
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2015/03/how-carbohydrates-can-affect-your-heart-health/
i stopped reading at good carbs and bad carbs....
BG meters are very judgemental about where your food came from...
so they are not supportive like MFP is????
Just the food, not the eater.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »Do a majority of low carbers generally eat more vegetables than SAD? Yes.
There's no basis for this claim.
So far as I can tell most low carbers were anti veg which is what caused them to incline to low carb.
I think the definition of SAD generally refers to processed and "fast foods," consumption of soda pop/sugary beverages, and a lack of vegetables. Healthy, well-rounded diets are not referred to as SAD.
So far as you can tell? Based on what exactly? How many low-carbers do you know? Go to /r/keto on Reddit and you will see tons of people pumping up their love of veggies and reminding others to consume them! And this is on the low end of the carb spectrum (net <20)
The fact is, low-carb and keto diets are not inherently antithetical to high vegetable consumption. Especially when you look at rice and noodle replacements like cauliflower and zucchini which are prevalent in keto recipes.
Do you want to start a separate thread for your other claims? Debating the merits of fat is not the intent of this thread.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »Do a majority of low carbers generally eat more vegetables than SAD? Yes.
There's no basis for this claim.
So far as I can tell most low carbers were anti veg which is what caused them to incline to low carb.
Where is the basis that "most" low carbers hated vegetables? The majority of low-carbers (and I include Keto - slow carbers in that) I've come across are the exact opposite. I've heard people who became exposed to new kinds of vegetables or new ways of cooking them. In all of the low carb groups I've come across there have only been a small few that don't each vegetables. They readily admit to being outside the norm and I've never seen anyone actually promote the removal of vegetables from their diet. I'll grant you this is my experience and not based on any study. I'm not sure there are studies about that (shrug).
1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »Do a majority of low carbers generally eat more vegetables than SAD? Yes.
There's no basis for this claim.
So far as I can tell most low carbers were anti veg which is what caused them to incline to low carb.
Where is the basis that "most" low carbers hated vegetables? The majority of low-carbers (and I include Keto - slow carbers in that) I've come across are the exact opposite. I've heard people who became exposed to new kinds of vegetables or new ways of cooking them. In all of the low carb groups I've come across there have only been a small few that don't each vegetables. They readily admit to being outside the norm and I've never seen anyone actually promote the removal of vegetables from their diet. I'll grant you this is my experience and not based on any study. I'm not sure there are studies about that (shrug).
This has been my experience as well...1 -
lisawinning4losing wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »It's hard to find the WHO 5-a-day recommendations. According to Wikipedia, the WHO recommendation is a minimum of 400 grams of vegetables a day, excluding potatoes and other starchy tubers. And then there is a recommendation from a study out of University College, London, to double that recommendation, to 10-a-day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_A_Day
Oh, and here's the American iteration of 5-a-day, "More Matters," which adjusts the recommendations to anywhere from 2 to 6.5 cups of veggies/fruits a day, dependent on your caloric needs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruits_&_Veggies_–_More_Matters
http://www.fruitsandveggiesmorematters.org/
I also cannot find the original resolution, but here is an excerpt of the current recommendations:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs394/en/
So people keep referring to WHO recommendations, but the whole issue revolves around blatently ignoring the first recommendation:A healthy diet contains:- Fruits, vegetables, legumes (e.g. lentils, beans), nuts and whole grains (e.g. unprocessed maize, millet, oats, wheat, brown rice).
- At least 400 g (5 portions) of fruits and vegetables a day (2). Potatoes, sweet potatoes, cassava and other starchy roots are not classified as fruits or vegetables.
- Less than 10% of total energy intake from free sugars (2, 5) which is equivalent to 50 g (or around 12 level teaspoons) for a person of healthy body weight consuming approximately 2000 calories per day, but ideally less than 5% of total energy intake for additional health benefits (5). Most free sugars are added to foods or drinks by the manufacturer, cook or consumer, and can also be found in sugars naturally present in honey, syrups, fruit juices and fruit juice concentrates.
- Less than 30% of total energy intake from fats (1, 2, 3). Unsaturated fats (e.g. found in fish, avocado, nuts, sunflower, canola and olive oils) are preferable to saturated fats (e.g. found in fatty meat, butter, palm and coconut oil, cream, cheese, ghee and lard) (3). Industrial trans fats (found in processed food, fast food, snack food, fried food, frozen pizza, pies, cookies, margarines and spreads) are not part of a healthy diet.
- Less than 5 g of salt (equivalent to approximately 1 teaspoon) per day (6) and use iodized salt.
Guidelines that are very high in carbs don't work well for a lot of people suffering from blood sugar disorders. Many people also get blood lipid improvements with a lower carb diet. This thread is about eating vegetables on a low carb diet, not about eating them on a high carb diet.
Actually, the recommendation to limit saturated fats promotes blood sugar control.
Not to mention that many people have achieved blood sugar control through diet and exercise without having to go low carb.
Fat is much better for blood sugar control than carbs because it digests and absorbs into the bloodstream much more slowly, which means that it doesn't cause the spikes and drops in blood sugar that carbs cause. It keeps you more stable. It could very well be true that people have achieved blood sugar control without having to go "low carb", but telling people to cut animal fat is the old fashioned advice that we're now learning is wrong. We're even rethinking things like heart disease, since it's been shown the high blood sugar levels increase inflammation and damage the heart and arteries. Even the American Heart Association is now recommending that people limit their intake of sugar. Animal fat is a natural source of food, found in nature, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it.
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2015/03/how-carbohydrates-can-affect-your-heart-health/
i stopped reading at good carbs and bad carbs....
I used to think that way too, until I read some papers on resistant starch, and on the effects of a reduced sugar diet in obese children, where carbs were not reduced. The way that glucose molecules are put together, structurally, in a starch, and whether the starch is raw or cooked, makes the difference between you using them in typical glycolytic pathways, and gut microbes using them to make short chain fatty acids, which have beneficial effects.
The children on a reduced sugar diet, with the same calories and macros, had reductions in diastolic blood pressure, blood triglycerides and cholesterol, improvements in glucose tolerance and hyperinsulinemia, and reductions in body fat.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oby.21371/abstract
There may well be good carbs and bad carbs.1 -
lithezebra wrote: »lisawinning4losing wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »It's hard to find the WHO 5-a-day recommendations. According to Wikipedia, the WHO recommendation is a minimum of 400 grams of vegetables a day, excluding potatoes and other starchy tubers. And then there is a recommendation from a study out of University College, London, to double that recommendation, to 10-a-day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_A_Day
Oh, and here's the American iteration of 5-a-day, "More Matters," which adjusts the recommendations to anywhere from 2 to 6.5 cups of veggies/fruits a day, dependent on your caloric needs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruits_&_Veggies_–_More_Matters
http://www.fruitsandveggiesmorematters.org/
I also cannot find the original resolution, but here is an excerpt of the current recommendations:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs394/en/
So people keep referring to WHO recommendations, but the whole issue revolves around blatently ignoring the first recommendation:A healthy diet contains:- Fruits, vegetables, legumes (e.g. lentils, beans), nuts and whole grains (e.g. unprocessed maize, millet, oats, wheat, brown rice).
- At least 400 g (5 portions) of fruits and vegetables a day (2). Potatoes, sweet potatoes, cassava and other starchy roots are not classified as fruits or vegetables.
- Less than 10% of total energy intake from free sugars (2, 5) which is equivalent to 50 g (or around 12 level teaspoons) for a person of healthy body weight consuming approximately 2000 calories per day, but ideally less than 5% of total energy intake for additional health benefits (5). Most free sugars are added to foods or drinks by the manufacturer, cook or consumer, and can also be found in sugars naturally present in honey, syrups, fruit juices and fruit juice concentrates.
- Less than 30% of total energy intake from fats (1, 2, 3). Unsaturated fats (e.g. found in fish, avocado, nuts, sunflower, canola and olive oils) are preferable to saturated fats (e.g. found in fatty meat, butter, palm and coconut oil, cream, cheese, ghee and lard) (3). Industrial trans fats (found in processed food, fast food, snack food, fried food, frozen pizza, pies, cookies, margarines and spreads) are not part of a healthy diet.
- Less than 5 g of salt (equivalent to approximately 1 teaspoon) per day (6) and use iodized salt.
Guidelines that are very high in carbs don't work well for a lot of people suffering from blood sugar disorders. Many people also get blood lipid improvements with a lower carb diet. This thread is about eating vegetables on a low carb diet, not about eating them on a high carb diet.
Actually, the recommendation to limit saturated fats promotes blood sugar control.
Not to mention that many people have achieved blood sugar control through diet and exercise without having to go low carb.
Fat is much better for blood sugar control than carbs because it digests and absorbs into the bloodstream much more slowly, which means that it doesn't cause the spikes and drops in blood sugar that carbs cause. It keeps you more stable. It could very well be true that people have achieved blood sugar control without having to go "low carb", but telling people to cut animal fat is the old fashioned advice that we're now learning is wrong. We're even rethinking things like heart disease, since it's been shown the high blood sugar levels increase inflammation and damage the heart and arteries. Even the American Heart Association is now recommending that people limit their intake of sugar. Animal fat is a natural source of food, found in nature, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it.
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2015/03/how-carbohydrates-can-affect-your-heart-health/
i stopped reading at good carbs and bad carbs....
I used to think that way too, until I read some papers on resistant starch, and on the effects of a reduced sugar diet in obese children, where carbs were not reduced. The way that glucose molecules are put together, structurally, in a starch, and whether the starch is raw or cooked, makes the difference between you using them in typical glycolytic pathways, and gut microbes using them to make short chain fatty acids, which have beneficial effects.
The children on a reduced sugar diet, with the same calories and macros, had reductions in diastolic blood pressure, blood triglycerides and cholesterol, improvements in glucose tolerance and hyperinsulinemia, and reductions in body fat.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oby.21371/abstract
There may well be good carbs and bad carbs.
Jeeze, I knew it was Lustig from the description before opening the link.
It's quackery. The change in health markers happened because some of the kids lost weight. All the statistical power comes from it. The experiment had no control, so he has not evidence that any of it happened from switching foods, only that it happened from being in a diet study that involved switching foods.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I ate low starch, but got plenty of veg and some sweets on 1250. Feel free to look back to 2014, when I logged more consistently.
OK, let's run a report on April 2014, shall we?
So as I see you ate ice cream or gelato... twice, on 5th and 20th.
In both occasions, you went over your calorie allotment (1441 and 1568).
That should be already enough, to prove my point, but if we look closer, we can see that on April 5th you ate just 356 g of vegetables (no fruit), so slightly below the 400g recommendation...
April 5, 2014
FOODS Calories Carbs Fat Protein Cholest Sodium Sugars Fiber
Early Morning
Squash - Zucchini, includes skin, raw, 91 g 15 3g 0g 1g 0mg 9mg 2g 1g
Cauliflower - Raw, 80 g 20 4g 0g 2g 0mg 24mg 2g 2g
Pearson - Blackeye Peas, 1/4 cup (85g) (3oz) 59 11g 0g 4g 0mg 153mg 1g 3g
Beef - Loin, bottom sirloin butt, tri-tip steak, lean only, raw, 3 oz 131 0g 7g 18g 55mg 47mg 0g 0g
Oil - Olive, 0.3 tablespoon 36 0g 4g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Essential Everyday - 1% Low Fat Cottage Cheese, 1/2 cup (115g) 90 5g 2g 13g 10mg 450mg 4g 0g
Lunch
Butter - Unsalted, 1 tbsp 102 0g 12g 0g 31mg 2mg 0g 0g
Oil - Vegetable, canola, 1 tbsp 124 0g 14g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Tomatoes - Green, raw, 5 slice or wedge 23 5g 0g 1g 0mg 13mg 4g 1g
Beef - Short Ribs, 6 oz 330 0g 23g 39g 119mg 74mg 0g 0g
Potatoes - White, flesh and skin, raw, 200 g 140 31g 0g 3g 0mg 12mg 2g 5g
Wheat flour - White, all-purpose, enriched, bleached, 0.2 cup 91 19g 0g 3g 0mg 1mg 0g 1g
Afternoon
Bryers - Butter Pecan Ice Cream, 1 cup 280 36g 12g 4g 20mg 200mg 24g 0g
TOTAL: 1,441 114g 74g 88g 235mg 985mg 39g 13g
Point?
My question exactly.
I was moving from DorkothyParker's observation that the carb level on a standard 1200 cal diet can be considered "low carb". And in fact, on such a diet, 50% carb means 150 grams and 40% means 120g.
Eat some bread, a portion of pasta, 2 scoops of ice cream and there is no way you can find space for adequate amount of fruit and vegetables (while on the other hand, low carber tipically avoid those foods because of their high glycemix index).
People coming from the SAD should be educated on getting proper nutrition, instead of being told to eat treats every day otherwise they will go insane...
1 -
I would just like to say, for the record, that even at <20 carbs, you can still eat a lot of veggies. According to my little package here, 3 oz of baby butter lettuce and baby kale has 3 grams of carbs, and 1 gram of that is fiber. And 3 oz of fresh green beans has 6 grams of carbs. Seems to me like you could eat a load of vegetables and be still be under 20 grams of carbs.1
-
Gianfranco_R wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I ate low starch, but got plenty of veg and some sweets on 1250. Feel free to look back to 2014, when I logged more consistently.
OK, let's run a report on April 2014, shall we?
So as I see you ate ice cream or gelato... twice, on 5th and 20th.
In both occasions, you went over your calorie allotment (1441 and 1568).
That should be already enough, to prove my point, but if we look closer, we can see that on April 5th you ate just 356 g of vegetables (no fruit), so slightly below the 400g recommendation...
April 5, 2014
FOODS Calories Carbs Fat Protein Cholest Sodium Sugars Fiber
Early Morning
Squash - Zucchini, includes skin, raw, 91 g 15 3g 0g 1g 0mg 9mg 2g 1g
Cauliflower - Raw, 80 g 20 4g 0g 2g 0mg 24mg 2g 2g
Pearson - Blackeye Peas, 1/4 cup (85g) (3oz) 59 11g 0g 4g 0mg 153mg 1g 3g
Beef - Loin, bottom sirloin butt, tri-tip steak, lean only, raw, 3 oz 131 0g 7g 18g 55mg 47mg 0g 0g
Oil - Olive, 0.3 tablespoon 36 0g 4g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Essential Everyday - 1% Low Fat Cottage Cheese, 1/2 cup (115g) 90 5g 2g 13g 10mg 450mg 4g 0g
Lunch
Butter - Unsalted, 1 tbsp 102 0g 12g 0g 31mg 2mg 0g 0g
Oil - Vegetable, canola, 1 tbsp 124 0g 14g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Tomatoes - Green, raw, 5 slice or wedge 23 5g 0g 1g 0mg 13mg 4g 1g
Beef - Short Ribs, 6 oz 330 0g 23g 39g 119mg 74mg 0g 0g
Potatoes - White, flesh and skin, raw, 200 g 140 31g 0g 3g 0mg 12mg 2g 5g
Wheat flour - White, all-purpose, enriched, bleached, 0.2 cup 91 19g 0g 3g 0mg 1mg 0g 1g
Afternoon
Bryers - Butter Pecan Ice Cream, 1 cup 280 36g 12g 4g 20mg 200mg 24g 0g
TOTAL: 1,441 114g 74g 88g 235mg 985mg 39g 13g
Point?
My question exactly.
I was moving from DorkothyParker's observation that the carb level on a standard 1200 cal diet can be considered "low carb". And in fact, on such a diet, 50% carb means 150 grams and 40% means 120g.
Eat some bread, a portion of pasta, 2 scoops of ice cream and there is no way you can find space for adequate amount of fruit and vegetables (while on the other hand, low carber tipically avoid those foods because of their high glycemix index).
People coming from the SAD should be educated on getting proper nutrition, instead of being told to eat treats every day otherwise they will go insane...
But... that would make sense.0
This discussion has been closed.
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