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Low carb and vegetables
Replies
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You're low carb. Why do you have a garden? Oh, nevermind, it must be bait for the rabbits.lisawinning4losing wrote: »Now I have to Google a meatzza recipe. That looks delicious. And I even have a basil plant. Freshly picked basil is the best! I'll probably have a salad with low carb dressing on the side.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »From my standpoint, and the reason I take part in this particular debate is I feel that some are proliferating a myth that you can't eat a healthy amount of veggies and remain low carb, and that just isn't true.
But I have quite carefully explained that I am not saying that. For me counting vegetables would be counterproductive, but I believe you can have a perfectly healthy diet while low carbing.
What I am reacting to -- and some of this relates to past conversations -- are people pushing the notion that it's not important at all to eat vegetables and that when it comes to carbs the lower the better and the main problem with the US diet is carbs. I do think it's just the flip side of the fat fear and no more helpful.
So your entire argument is based off a few misguided extremist as opposed to the collective group? If so, maybe your views need to change slightly based on the majority...
If for every misguided extremist there were a handful of normal ones telling them to step back and rethink wtf they're talking about, there would be no problems, but that's not how it is. Often the extremists are the only ones in the discussion. That is probably also true for other topics.0 -
lisawinning4losing wrote: »OK, you all make fun of that, but if someone had a doughy pizza full of white flour, which every health expert tells you to avoid or minimize, and chemical laden chips or whatever, with no veggies at all, you'd be like "Hey it's cool just as long as it fits into your calories! There's no such thing as junk food!" But now meat and cheese are junk food?
[citation needed]
Also great straw man.
Also also, no one said meat and cheese are junk food just that some people think that low carb means not eating vegetables is healthy because vegetables = carbs and carbs = bad.0 -
lisawinning4losing wrote: »OK, you all make fun of that, but if someone had a doughy pizza full of white flour and processed meat, A.which every health expert tells you to avoid or minimize, and chemical laden chips or whatever, with no veggies at all, you'd be like B."Hey it's cool just as long as it fits into your calories! There's no such thing as junk food!" But now whole meat and cheese are junk food?
A. Footnote: for particular values of minimize, every, or health "expert".
B. I'm pretty sure the people who don't believe in junk food being a useful term are many of the people arguing everyone should eat vegetables regularly for health. The calories matter for mass.0 -
So do you both form your opinions based on extremes? I certainly don't. If I did, I would think all flexible dieters eat nothing but ice cream and sweets. And considering how many members argue against those strawman comments, I would expect that the flexible dieters wouldn't do the same.
I guess the question is, if the majority of the people you know who decide to do low carb are doing it partially in order to avoid eating so many vegetables, is it actually an extreme/outlier? Or are the people posting online about low carb that advocate for eating vegetables the outliers?
Is there any credible data on that? I think we tend to forget that just like the people we see IRL everyday aren't necessarily a good measure of the rest of the population, neither are the people whose posts we see everyday.
Oh, and FTR - the few people I know who tried low carb most definitely did so with the intent of avoiding vegetables (as defined as non-starchy, etc). Which is not surprising since they just plain don't like vegetables and would do that on any diet if at all possible.
This was me in my early 20s. I went low carb (<30) for about six months. One of the reasons it appealed to me was because I have a very narrow list of non-starchy veggies that I enjoy. Of course, at the time it was marketed to me as "you can eat all you want as long as you stay under 30g of carbs and you'll lose weight fast." (Stupid, of course, but who doesn't believe at least one stupid thing in their 20s?)
Don't worry, you're in good company. Plenty still believe that now. And these people are most definitely out of their 20s.0 -
Nope, the garden is for me. And my cats. They like the catnip.0
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lisawinning4losing wrote: »OK, you all make fun of that, but if someone had a doughy pizza full of white flour and processed meat, which every health expert tells you to avoid or minimize, and chemical laden chips full of hydrogenated oil (trans fat), with no veggies at all, you'd be like "Hey it's cool just as long as it fits into your calories! There's no such thing as junk food!" But now whole meat and cheese are junk food?
Edited.0 -
So do you both form your opinions based on extremes? I certainly don't. If I did, I would think all flexible dieters eat nothing but ice cream and sweets. And considering how many members argue against those strawman comments, I would expect that the flexible dieters wouldn't do the same.
I guess the question is, if the majority of the people you know who decide to do low carb are doing it partially in order to avoid eating so many vegetables, is it actually an extreme/outlier? Or are the people posting online about low carb that advocate for eating vegetables the outliers?
Is there any credible data on that? I think we tend to forget that just like the people we see IRL everyday aren't necessarily a good measure of the rest of the population, neither are the people whose posts we see everyday.
Oh, and FTR - the few people I know who tried low carb most definitely did so with the intent of avoiding vegetables (as defined as non-starchy, etc). Which is not surprising since they just plain don't like vegetables and would do that on any diet if at all possible.
Why would they need low carb to do that?
Because at least some people interpret low carb as meaning eat as much meat and cheese as you want and it's "healthy?"
But this meatzza clearly has basil on it. Totally counts, right?
I don't usually like meat, but this looks like an exception (if I play the ground beef right with my usual additions that make it less "meaty"). Wonder how many calories a slice of that would be. Possibly 500?0 -
Doesn't matter, the important thing is to watch the carbs in the basil.amusedmonkey wrote: »So do you both form your opinions based on extremes? I certainly don't. If I did, I would think all flexible dieters eat nothing but ice cream and sweets. And considering how many members argue against those strawman comments, I would expect that the flexible dieters wouldn't do the same.
I guess the question is, if the majority of the people you know who decide to do low carb are doing it partially in order to avoid eating so many vegetables, is it actually an extreme/outlier? Or are the people posting online about low carb that advocate for eating vegetables the outliers?
Is there any credible data on that? I think we tend to forget that just like the people we see IRL everyday aren't necessarily a good measure of the rest of the population, neither are the people whose posts we see everyday.
Oh, and FTR - the few people I know who tried low carb most definitely did so with the intent of avoiding vegetables (as defined as non-starchy, etc). Which is not surprising since they just plain don't like vegetables and would do that on any diet if at all possible.
Why would they need low carb to do that?
Because at least some people interpret low carb as meaning eat as much meat and cheese as you want and it's "healthy?"
But this meatzza clearly has basil on it. Totally counts, right?
I don't usually like meat, but this looks like an exception (if I play the ground beef right with my usual additions that make it less "meaty"). Wonder how many calories a slice of that would be. Possibly 500?0 -
Never had cats before, at least not that I know of. Let me know how it turns out.lisawinning4losing wrote: »Nope, the garden is for me. And my cats. They like the catnip.
/sarcasm
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So do you both form your opinions based on extremes? I certainly don't. If I did, I would think all flexible dieters eat nothing but ice cream and sweets. And considering how many members argue against those strawman comments, I would expect that the flexible dieters wouldn't do the same.
I guess the question is, if the majority of the people you know who decide to do low carb are doing it partially in order to avoid eating so many vegetables, is it actually an extreme/outlier? Or are the people posting online about low carb that advocate for eating vegetables the outliers?
Is there any credible data on that? I think we tend to forget that just like the people we see IRL everyday aren't necessarily a good measure of the rest of the population, neither are the people whose posts we see everyday.
Oh, and FTR - the few people I know who tried low carb most definitely did so with the intent of avoiding vegetables (as defined as non-starchy, etc). Which is not surprising since they just plain don't like vegetables and would do that on any diet if at all possible.
Why would they need low carb to do that?
Because at least some people interpret low carb as meaning eat as much meat and cheese as you want and it's "healthy?"
But this meatzza clearly has basil on it. Totally counts, right?
A balanced meal according to the Atkins Diet
Yes, but that's not what seems to be getting popular all over facebook. Which is the point. What is becoming popular is building off the concept of the diet, but is not actually following the diet, and my not be healthy.0 -
Low carb doesn't mean NO carb. There are a few extremists, some who call themselves carnivores or meatatarians, but that's not most of us. Anything can be taken to extremes. There's also something called the 80/10/10 diet with 80 percent carbs. There the "starch solution" which is literally nothing but starchy food. Anything can go overboard. There are CICO fundamentalists who eat almost nothing but fast food, processed food, frozen dinners, etc. Because hey, you can still lose weight, but whether you'll keep it off is another matter.
It's all about balance. One debate tactic is to pick out the extremists in a group and try to knock down the whole group based on that. Like, saying that extreme fundamentalist Christians represent all Christians. (I'm not religious myself, but just using that as an example.)0 -
lisawinning4losing wrote: »OK, you all make fun of that, but if someone had a doughy pizza full of white flour and processed meat, which every health expert tells you to avoid or minimize, and chemical laden chips full of hydrogenated oil (trans fat), with no veggies at all, you'd be like "Hey it's cool just as long as it fits into your calories! There's no such thing as junk food!" But now whole meat and cheese are junk food?
Oh look. Exactly what NO ONE said. Shocking, you're just flailing around words and acting injured while missing the point entirely.0 -
Yeah, guess what happens when the 80/10/10 raw frugivores post?lisawinning4losing wrote: »Low carb doesn't mean NO carb. There are a few extremists, some who call themselves carnivores or meatatarians, but that's not most of us. Anything can be taken to extremes. There's also something called the 80/10/10 diet with 80 percent carbs. There the "starch solution" which is literally nothing but starchy food. Anything can go overboard. There are CICO fundamentalists who eat almost nothing but fast food, processed food, frozen dinners, etc. Because hey, you can still lose weight, but whether you'll keep it off is another matter.
It's all about balance. One debate tactic is to pick out the extremists in a group and try to knock down the whole group based on that. Like, saying that extreme fundamentalist Christians represent all Christians. (I'm not religious myself, but just using that as an example.)
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lisawinning4losing wrote: »OK, you all make fun of that, but if someone had a doughy pizza full of white flour and processed meat, which every health expert tells you to avoid or minimize, and chemical laden chips full of hydrogenated oil (trans fat), with no veggies at all, you'd be like "Hey it's cool just as long as it fits into your calories! There's no such thing as junk food!" But now whole meat and cheese are junk food?
Oh look. Exactly what NO ONE said. Shocking, you're just flailing around words and acting injured while missing the point entirely.
That's exactly what people, a lot of people, say here every day, and anyone who raises an objection gets shouted down.
Oh, maybe you meant the part about whole meat and cheese being junk food. Yes, but it's said here that it should be limited. Yet oddly, anyone who says that ultra processed foods should be limited is told that they're wrong. So you should limit meat and cheese, but freely eat food loaded with HFCS and trans fats? That's what I don't understand.0 -
So do you both form your opinions based on extremes? I certainly don't. If I did, I would think all flexible dieters eat nothing but ice cream and sweets. And considering how many members argue against those strawman comments, I would expect that the flexible dieters wouldn't do the same.
I guess the question is, if the majority of the people you know who decide to do low carb are doing it partially in order to avoid eating so many vegetables, is it actually an extreme/outlier? Or are the people posting online about low carb that advocate for eating vegetables the outliers?
Is there any credible data on that? I think we tend to forget that just like the people we see IRL everyday aren't necessarily a good measure of the rest of the population, neither are the people whose posts we see everyday.
Oh, and FTR - the few people I know who tried low carb most definitely did so with the intent of avoiding vegetables (as defined as non-starchy, etc). Which is not surprising since they just plain don't like vegetables and would do that on any diet if at all possible.
I actually dont make a judgement of a diet based on the people who "follow" the plan but rather the implementation plan established for said plan. If people who follow that diet chose to restrict a specific food group, outside of the recommendations of the plan, then its on them. But in real life, and a lot of people i know here, tend to eat more veggies on a low carb diet. I know fewer who dont eat them (2 only come to mind). And while some are more vocal, it doesnt mean, by any standard, that a diet does not encourage the eating of veggies but rather recommends particular veggies based on nutrient profiles.
And personally, i know as many high carbers who restrict or dont each veggies. I, for one, probably dont eat as many veggies as i should but thats because fruit is better and many veggies are not convient to me outside of dinner.
I also think that we should make less judgments against one diet or another based on extremes people within those diets. I think by making such judgements of a diet based on the people following them, it can and will be disingenuous.
And FTR, i know people who do flexible dieting just because it allows them to eat ice cream.0 -
You're low carb. Why do you have a garden? Oh, nevermind, it must be bait for the rabbits.lisawinning4losing wrote: »Now I have to Google a meatzza recipe. That looks delicious. And I even have a basil plant. Freshly picked basil is the best! I'll probably have a salad with low carb dressing on the side.
*snort*0 -
lisawinning4losing wrote: »lisawinning4losing wrote: »OK, you all make fun of that, but if someone had a doughy pizza full of white flour and processed meat, which every health expert tells you to avoid or minimize, and chemical laden chips full of hydrogenated oil (trans fat), with no veggies at all, you'd be like "Hey it's cool just as long as it fits into your calories! There's no such thing as junk food!" But now whole meat and cheese are junk food?
Oh look. Exactly what NO ONE said. Shocking, you're just flailing around words and acting injured while missing the point entirely.
That's exactly what people, a lot of people, say here every day, and anyone who raises an objection gets shouted down.
Oh, maybe you meant the part about whole meat and cheese being junk food. Yes, but it's said here that it should be limited. Yet oddly, anyone who says that ultra processed foods should be limited is told that they're wrong. So you should limit meat and cheese, but freely eat food loaded with HFCS and trans fats? That's what I don't understand.
Because it's silly to limit food based on how processed it is. It should be limited or not based on the actual food.0 -
I had rabbit meat once. It was actually pretty good.0
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Yeah, guess what happens when the 80/10/10 raw frugivores post?lisawinning4losing wrote: »Low carb doesn't mean NO carb. There are a few extremists, some who call themselves carnivores or meatatarians, but that's not most of us. Anything can be taken to extremes. There's also something called the 80/10/10 diet with 80 percent carbs. There the "starch solution" which is literally nothing but starchy food. Anything can go overboard. There are CICO fundamentalists who eat almost nothing but fast food, processed food, frozen dinners, etc. Because hey, you can still lose weight, but whether you'll keep it off is another matter.
It's all about balance. One debate tactic is to pick out the extremists in a group and try to knock down the whole group based on that. Like, saying that extreme fundamentalist Christians represent all Christians. (I'm not religious myself, but just using that as an example.)
What, you mean this thread didn't go exactly the way the raw vegan wanted?!
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10329769/too-much-protein/p1
Shocked. Shocked I tell you.0 -
Not enough fat though.lisawinning4losing wrote: »I had rabbit meat once. It was actually pretty good.
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lisawinning4losing wrote: »I had rabbit meat once. It was actually pretty good.
Spitting out the buckshot though, who ever can find the time?0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »So do you both form your opinions based on extremes? I certainly don't. If I did, I would think all flexible dieters eat nothing but ice cream and sweets. And considering how many members argue against those strawman comments, I would expect that the flexible dieters wouldn't do the same.
I guess the question is, if the majority of the people you know who decide to do low carb are doing it partially in order to avoid eating so many vegetables, is it actually an extreme/outlier? Or are the people posting online about low carb that advocate for eating vegetables the outliers?
Is there any credible data on that? I think we tend to forget that just like the people we see IRL everyday aren't necessarily a good measure of the rest of the population, neither are the people whose posts we see everyday.
Oh, and FTR - the few people I know who tried low carb most definitely did so with the intent of avoiding vegetables (as defined as non-starchy, etc). Which is not surprising since they just plain don't like vegetables and would do that on any diet if at all possible.
Why would they need low carb to do that?
Because at least some people interpret low carb as meaning eat as much meat and cheese as you want and it's "healthy?"
But this meatzza clearly has basil on it. Totally counts, right?
I don't usually like meat, but this looks like an exception (if I play the ground beef right with my usual additions that make it less "meaty"). Wonder how many calories a slice of that would be. Possibly 500?
I'd assume it depends on kind of meat used and percent fat. The leaner the meat, the less likely it would be to stick together. Personally, I like more veggies than that on my pizza in general. And I feel like the cheese to meat ratio is off for it to be a "pizza". More like a meatloaf with cheese on top.0 -
So do you both form your opinions based on extremes? I certainly don't. If I did, I would think all flexible dieters eat nothing but ice cream and sweets. And considering how many members argue against those strawman comments, I would expect that the flexible dieters wouldn't do the same.
I guess the question is, if the majority of the people you know who decide to do low carb are doing it partially in order to avoid eating so many vegetables, is it actually an extreme/outlier? Or are the people posting online about low carb that advocate for eating vegetables the outliers?
Is there any credible data on that? I think we tend to forget that just like the people we see IRL everyday aren't necessarily a good measure of the rest of the population, neither are the people whose posts we see everyday.
Oh, and FTR - the few people I know who tried low carb most definitely did so with the intent of avoiding vegetables (as defined as non-starchy, etc). Which is not surprising since they just plain don't like vegetables and would do that on any diet if at all possible.
I actually dont make a judgement of a diet based on the people who "follow" the plan but rather the implementation plan established for said plan. If people who follow that diet chose to restrict a specific food group, outside of the recommendations of the plan, then its on them. But in real life, and a lot of people i know here, tend to eat more veggies on a low carb diet. I know fewer who dont eat them (2 only come to mind). And while some are more vocal, it doesnt mean, by any standard, that a diet does not encourage the eating of veggies but rather recommends particular veggies based on nutrient profiles.
And personally, i know as many high carbers who restrict or dont each veggies. I, for one, probably dont eat as many veggies as i should but thats because fruit is better and many veggies are not convient to me outside of dinner.
I also think that we should make less judgments against one diet or another based on extremes people within those diets. I think by making such judgements of a diet based on the people following them, it can and will be disingenuous.
And FTR, i know people who do flexible dieting just because it allows them to eat ice cream.
Thank you, I appreciate that. I honestly believe that different things work for different people. Also, the best diet is the one that you can stick to, and that's going to be different for everyone, based on biological, psychological, and cultural differences between people.
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lisawinning4losing wrote: »lisawinning4losing wrote: »OK, you all make fun of that, but if someone had a doughy pizza full of white flour and processed meat, which every health expert tells you to avoid or minimize, and chemical laden chips full of hydrogenated oil (trans fat), with no veggies at all, you'd be like "Hey it's cool just as long as it fits into your calories! There's no such thing as junk food!" But now whole meat and cheese are junk food?
Oh look. Exactly what NO ONE said. Shocking, you're just flailing around words and acting injured while missing the point entirely.
That's exactly what people, a lot of people, say here every day, and anyone who raises an objection gets shouted down.
Oh, maybe you meant the part about whole meat and cheese being junk food. Yes, but it's said here that it should be limited. Yet oddly, anyone who says that ultra processed foods should be limited is told that they're wrong. So you should limit meat and cheese, but freely eat food loaded with HFCS and trans fats? That's what I don't understand.
Because it's silly to limit food based on how processed it is. It should be limited or not based on the actual food.
But then why are people saying that it's unhealthy to eat too much meat or cheese?
Also, I'm not even sure what this means. I'm saying that ultra processed food should be limited based on the actual food, which is crap.0 -
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lisawinning4losing wrote: »lisawinning4losing wrote: »OK, you all make fun of that, but if someone had a doughy pizza full of white flour and processed meat, which every health expert tells you to avoid or minimize, and chemical laden chips full of hydrogenated oil (trans fat), with no veggies at all, you'd be like "Hey it's cool just as long as it fits into your calories! There's no such thing as junk food!" But now whole meat and cheese are junk food?
Oh look. Exactly what NO ONE said. Shocking, you're just flailing around words and acting injured while missing the point entirely.
That's exactly what people, a lot of people, say here every day, and anyone who raises an objection gets shouted down.
Oh, maybe you meant the part about whole meat and cheese being junk food. Yes, but it's said here that it should be limited. Yet oddly, anyone who says that ultra processed foods should be limited is told that they're wrong. So you should limit meat and cheese, but freely eat food loaded with HFCS and trans fats? That's what I don't understand.
Actually they don't. What is often said is "if it fits your macros" which is different than "if it fits your calories."
I also don't feel that anything is shouted down here. Misinformation is confronted, but that's a completely different thing.
If a calorie is a calorie, then why do macros even matter at all? Why couldn't you just eat all protein, or all carbs, or all fat? A calorie is a calorie, right?0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »So do you both form your opinions based on extremes? I certainly don't. If I did, I would think all flexible dieters eat nothing but ice cream and sweets. And considering how many members argue against those strawman comments, I would expect that the flexible dieters wouldn't do the same.
I guess the question is, if the majority of the people you know who decide to do low carb are doing it partially in order to avoid eating so many vegetables, is it actually an extreme/outlier? Or are the people posting online about low carb that advocate for eating vegetables the outliers?
Is there any credible data on that? I think we tend to forget that just like the people we see IRL everyday aren't necessarily a good measure of the rest of the population, neither are the people whose posts we see everyday.
Oh, and FTR - the few people I know who tried low carb most definitely did so with the intent of avoiding vegetables (as defined as non-starchy, etc). Which is not surprising since they just plain don't like vegetables and would do that on any diet if at all possible.
Why would they need low carb to do that?
Because at least some people interpret low carb as meaning eat as much meat and cheese as you want and it's "healthy?"
But this meatzza clearly has basil on it. Totally counts, right?
I don't usually like meat, but this looks like an exception (if I play the ground beef right with my usual additions that make it less "meaty"). Wonder how many calories a slice of that would be. Possibly 500?
I'd assume it depends on kind of meat used and percent fat. The leaner the meat, the less likely it would be to stick together. Personally, I like more veggies than that on my pizza in general. And I feel like the cheese to meat ratio is off for it to be a "pizza". More like a meatloaf with cheese on top.
We don't have lean beef, so I'm likely to use quite a bit less meat. Being the veggie lover I am, of course I would top it with more veggies (and mushrooms). It just "looks" interesting. Just like the "cauliflower crust" looked interesting... but turned out nasty. Sadly, my dog didn't like it either, but I'm sure he would like this one if I didn't.0 -
Not enough fat though.lisawinning4losing wrote: »I had rabbit meat once. It was actually pretty good.
If I had a farm, I could fatten them up first. 0
This discussion has been closed.
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