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Low carb and vegetables
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lemurcat12 wrote: »That, and the keto-evangelism generally, plus claims that we are all going to get dementia from the carbs.
Whatever the problems with the average American diet, focusing on carb percentage seems unlikely to be the issue given the many healthy traditional diets with as high or higher carb percentages. Which is not to say that lowering carbs might not be a sustainable and healthy way to diet for some -- I'm a carb agnostic when it comes to percentages -- but the constant banging on about carbs being bad is annoying.
And I really don't think it's cool to evangelize for a particular way of eating beyond just generally saying it's sensible to eat a generally nutritious diet. (It's like how lots of low carbers insist that fat is satiating, when for many it's not, and that going low carb will prevent you from being hungry all the time when many or most people probably don't have that as an issue.)
But that's what mostly everybody does. Hunger might not be an issue for some. So if a low carber says "You wont be hungry on this diet, I would hope that they would say "Hunger isn't my issue, what else is out there?" The same way that someone who has a problem eating just one donut should answer someone saying "Eat whatever you want as long as you eat at deficit." with "I can't eat whatever I want and remain at a deficit, what else is out there?" Everyone should be encouraged to find the WOE that is the right fit for them. From my standpoint, and the reason I take part in this particular debate is I feel that some are proliferating a myth that you can't eat a healthy amount of veggies and remain low carb, and that just isn't true.
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I don't agree that relatively few people would find low carb disadvantageous to their current diet since compliance with a WOE is probably the most important factor. However, I don't think that is the topic at hand, so I'll leave it be.
As a vegetarian who sometimes did low carb dieting...the idea that the diet promotes the eating of vegetables sends me laughing out of the forums. I also get thoroughly annoyed with the misinformation being bandied about with that wonky study that carbs cause cancer. It's stuff like that...that ends up being the undercurrent on the conversation we are currently having.
Well, I kind of understand that. Would you be willing to be open to the possibility of it being true?0 -
From my standpoint, and the reason I take part in this particular debate is I feel that some are proliferating a myth that you can't eat a healthy amount of veggies and remain low carb, and that just isn't true.
But I have quite carefully explained that I am not saying that. For me counting vegetables would be counterproductive, but I believe you can have a perfectly healthy diet while low carbing.
What I am reacting to -- and some of this relates to past conversations -- are people pushing the notion that it's not important at all to eat vegetables and that when it comes to carbs the lower the better and the main problem with the US diet is carbs. I do think it's just the flip side of the fat fear and no more helpful.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »From my standpoint, and the reason I take part in this particular debate is I feel that some are proliferating a myth that you can't eat a healthy amount of veggies and remain low carb, and that just isn't true.
But I have quite carefully explained that I am not saying that. For me counting vegetables would be counterproductive, but I believe you can have a perfectly healthy diet while low carbing.
What I am reacting to -- and some of this relates to past conversations -- are people pushing the notion that it's not important at all to eat vegetables and that when it comes to carbs the lower the better and the main problem with the US diet is carbs. I do think it's just the flip side of the fat fear and no more helpful.
So your entire argument is based off a few misguided extremist as opposed to the collective group? If so, maybe your views need to change slightly based on the majority...0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »From my standpoint, and the reason I take part in this particular debate is I feel that some are proliferating a myth that you can't eat a healthy amount of veggies and remain low carb, and that just isn't true.
But I have quite carefully explained that I am not saying that. For me counting vegetables would be counterproductive, but I believe you can have a perfectly healthy diet while low carbing.
What I am reacting to -- and some of this relates to past conversations -- are people pushing the notion that it's not important at all to eat vegetables and that when it comes to carbs the lower the better and the main problem with the US diet is carbs. I do think it's just the flip side of the fat fear and no more helpful.
So your entire argument is based off a few misguided extremist as opposed to the collective group? If so, maybe your views need to change slightly based on the majority...
I think often the low carb advocates at MFP seem to be dominated by the extremists who insist we will get dementia and all that or that vegetables are completely unimportant.
But yes, my mea culpa earlier today was intended to correct for being overly frustrated/affected by the more extreme sorts, since I have said (over and over and over) that I think it's perfectly possible to have a healthy diet that's low carb. Did you not see that (or my numerous prior posts in which I've said the same thing)?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »From my standpoint, and the reason I take part in this particular debate is I feel that some are proliferating a myth that you can't eat a healthy amount of veggies and remain low carb, and that just isn't true.
But I have quite carefully explained that I am not saying that. For me counting vegetables would be counterproductive, but I believe you can have a perfectly healthy diet while low carbing.
What I am reacting to -- and some of this relates to past conversations -- are people pushing the notion that it's not important at all to eat vegetables and that when it comes to carbs the lower the better and the main problem with the US diet is carbs. I do think it's just the flip side of the fat fear and no more helpful.
So your entire argument is based off a few misguided extremist as opposed to the collective group? If so, maybe your views need to change slightly based on the majority...
In my life, the anti-veg low carbers are the majority. It really depends on who you know.
Groups are defined by their extremes.
I personally think that MFPers of all sorts are not likely the average of whatever group they feel like they belong to and are generally more health conscious.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »From my standpoint, and the reason I take part in this particular debate is I feel that some are proliferating a myth that you can't eat a healthy amount of veggies and remain low carb, and that just isn't true.
But I have quite carefully explained that I am not saying that. For me counting vegetables would be counterproductive, but I believe you can have a perfectly healthy diet while low carbing.
What I am reacting to -- and some of this relates to past conversations -- are people pushing the notion that it's not important at all to eat vegetables and that when it comes to carbs the lower the better and the main problem with the US diet is carbs. I do think it's just the flip side of the fat fear and no more helpful.
So your entire argument is based off a few misguided extremist as opposed to the collective group? If so, maybe your views need to change slightly based on the majority...
I think often the low carb advocates at MFP seem to be dominated by the extremists who insist we will get dementia and all that or that vegetables are completely unimportant.
But yes, my mea culpa earlier today was intended to correct for being overly frustrated/affected by the more extreme sorts, since I have said (over and over and over) that I think it's perfectly possible to have a healthy diet that's low carb. Did you not see that (or my numerous prior posts in which I've said the same thing)?
I did see your prior post.
Also, I haven't seen anyone suggest that carbs cause dementia, but rather keto can improve dementia...0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »From my standpoint, and the reason I take part in this particular debate is I feel that some are proliferating a myth that you can't eat a healthy amount of veggies and remain low carb, and that just isn't true.
But I have quite carefully explained that I am not saying that. For me counting vegetables would be counterproductive, but I believe you can have a perfectly healthy diet while low carbing.
What I am reacting to -- and some of this relates to past conversations -- are people pushing the notion that it's not important at all to eat vegetables and that when it comes to carbs the lower the better and the main problem with the US diet is carbs. I do think it's just the flip side of the fat fear and no more helpful.
So your entire argument is based off a few misguided extremist as opposed to the collective group? If so, maybe your views need to change slightly based on the majority...
I think often the low carb advocates at MFP seem to be dominated by the extremists who insist we will get dementia and all that or that vegetables are completely unimportant.
But yes, my mea culpa earlier today was intended to correct for being overly frustrated/affected by the more extreme sorts, since I have said (over and over and over) that I think it's perfectly possible to have a healthy diet that's low carb. Did you not see that (or my numerous prior posts in which I've said the same thing)?
I did see your prior post.
Also, I haven't seen anyone suggest that carbs cause dementia, but rather keto can improve dementia...
You've missed all the posts about dementia being Type 3 diabetes?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »From my standpoint, and the reason I take part in this particular debate is I feel that some are proliferating a myth that you can't eat a healthy amount of veggies and remain low carb, and that just isn't true.
But I have quite carefully explained that I am not saying that. For me counting vegetables would be counterproductive, but I believe you can have a perfectly healthy diet while low carbing.
What I am reacting to -- and some of this relates to past conversations -- are people pushing the notion that it's not important at all to eat vegetables and that when it comes to carbs the lower the better and the main problem with the US diet is carbs. I do think it's just the flip side of the fat fear and no more helpful.
So your entire argument is based off a few misguided extremist as opposed to the collective group? If so, maybe your views need to change slightly based on the majority...
I think often the low carb advocates at MFP seem to be dominated by the extremists who insist we will get dementia and all that or that vegetables are completely unimportant.
But yes, my mea culpa earlier today was intended to correct for being overly frustrated/affected by the more extreme sorts, since I have said (over and over and over) that I think it's perfectly possible to have a healthy diet that's low carb. Did you not see that (or my numerous prior posts in which I've said the same thing)?
I did see your prior post.
Also, I haven't seen anyone suggest that carbs cause dementia, but rather keto can improve dementia...
You've missed all the posts about dementia being Type 3 diabetes?
I have seen a few post regarding the potential of dementia being considered to be Type 3.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »From my standpoint, and the reason I take part in this particular debate is I feel that some are proliferating a myth that you can't eat a healthy amount of veggies and remain low carb, and that just isn't true.
But I have quite carefully explained that I am not saying that. For me counting vegetables would be counterproductive, but I believe you can have a perfectly healthy diet while low carbing.
What I am reacting to -- and some of this relates to past conversations -- are people pushing the notion that it's not important at all to eat vegetables and that when it comes to carbs the lower the better and the main problem with the US diet is carbs. I do think it's just the flip side of the fat fear and no more helpful.
So your entire argument is based off a few misguided extremist as opposed to the collective group? If so, maybe your views need to change slightly based on the majority...
I think often the low carb advocates at MFP seem to be dominated by the extremists who insist we will get dementia and all that or that vegetables are completely unimportant.
But yes, my mea culpa earlier today was intended to correct for being overly frustrated/affected by the more extreme sorts, since I have said (over and over and over) that I think it's perfectly possible to have a healthy diet that's low carb. Did you not see that (or my numerous prior posts in which I've said the same thing)?
I did see your prior post.
Also, I haven't seen anyone suggest that carbs cause dementia, but rather keto can improve dementia...
You've missed all the posts about dementia being Type 3 diabetes?
Yes, this is what I was thinking of, and absolutely it was stated that too many carbs give us Alzheimers.0 -
So do you both form your opinions based on extremes? I certainly don't. If I did, I would think all flexible dieters eat nothing but ice cream and sweets. And considering how many members argue against those strawman comments, I would expect that the flexible dieters wouldn't do the same.0
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lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »From my standpoint, and the reason I take part in this particular debate is I feel that some are proliferating a myth that you can't eat a healthy amount of veggies and remain low carb, and that just isn't true.
But I have quite carefully explained that I am not saying that. For me counting vegetables would be counterproductive, but I believe you can have a perfectly healthy diet while low carbing.
What I am reacting to -- and some of this relates to past conversations -- are people pushing the notion that it's not important at all to eat vegetables and that when it comes to carbs the lower the better and the main problem with the US diet is carbs. I do think it's just the flip side of the fat fear and no more helpful.
So your entire argument is based off a few misguided extremist as opposed to the collective group? If so, maybe your views need to change slightly based on the majority...
I think often the low carb advocates at MFP seem to be dominated by the extremists who insist we will get dementia and all that or that vegetables are completely unimportant.
But yes, my mea culpa earlier today was intended to correct for being overly frustrated/affected by the more extreme sorts, since I have said (over and over and over) that I think it's perfectly possible to have a healthy diet that's low carb. Did you not see that (or my numerous prior posts in which I've said the same thing)?
I did see your prior post.
Also, I haven't seen anyone suggest that carbs cause dementia, but rather keto can improve dementia...
You've missed all the posts about dementia being Type 3 diabetes?
Yes, this is what I was thinking of, and absolutely it was stated that too many carbs give us Alzheimers.
Yes, exactly. Because we all know that carbs cause diabetes. /sarcasm0 -
So do you both form your opinions based on extremes? I certainly don't. If I did, I would think all flexible dieters eat nothing but ice cream and sweets. And considering how many members argue against those strawman comments, I would expect that the flexible dieters wouldn't do the same.
That's quite a jump you've made.
I was pointing out that @lemurcat12's experiences with low carbers is not unique to her since those are my experiences as well. No strawmanning at all since I'm not trying to pretend the plural of anecdote is data or make up some absurd diet that no one advocates for and apply it to the entire group. But, nice try.
As for defining groups by their extremes, I did not say that I do. I'm just pointing out, again, that it tends to happen. People constantly have to be aware of their own biases and we all slip up. @lemurcat12 was big enough to acknowledge that that may be what had happened and you opted to basically ignore it. So, I pointed out that lots of people define groups by their extremes. Good for you, I guess, for never doing it?0 -
Is it disingenuous that a diet that promotes that one can eat whatever they want within a deficit promotes healthy food choices? As many have said, no one suggests that all your calories come from ice cream.I don't agree that relatively few people would find low carb disadvantageous to their current diet since compliance with a WOE is probably the most important factor. However, I don't think that is the topic at hand, so I'll leave it be.
As a vegetarian who sometimes did low carb dieting...the idea that the diet promotes the eating of vegetables sends me laughing out of the forums. I also get thoroughly annoyed with the misinformation being bandied about with that wonky study that carbs cause cancer. It's stuff like that...that ends up being the undercurrent on the conversation we are currently having.
Well, I kind of understand that. Would you be willing to be open to the possibility of it being true?
I don't think so. It's disingenuous that a diet that is often described as a limit of 50 carbs promotes eating vegetables. It can and most often does include vegetables and it's not devoid of them, it's not a diet that promotes it.
LC indirectly promotes veggies in the same way that calorie counting indirectly promotes healthy eating by encouraging/forcing the dieter to budget. Sure, when I was only concerned with a deficit, I could eat the Honeybun from the vending machine a few steps from my office, but the 460 calories would take up nearly a third of a 1500 calorie allotment. If I only have 50 carbs to work with, I am more likely to forgo the baked potato of 64 g and opt instead for up to 300 grams of broccoli of 21g.
ETA: I know "healthy" is a vague term, but work with me here.
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So do you both form your opinions based on extremes? I certainly don't. If I did, I would think all flexible dieters eat nothing but ice cream and sweets. And considering how many members argue against those strawman comments, I would expect that the flexible dieters wouldn't do the same.
I guess the question is, if the majority of the people you know who decide to do low carb are doing it partially in order to avoid eating so many vegetables, is it actually an extreme/outlier? Or are the people posting online about low carb that advocate for eating vegetables the outliers?
Is there any credible data on that? I think we tend to forget that just like the people we see IRL everyday aren't necessarily a good measure of the rest of the population, neither are the people whose posts we see everyday.
Oh, and FTR - the few people I know who tried low carb most definitely did so with the intent of avoiding vegetables (as defined as non-starchy, etc). Which is not surprising since they just plain don't like vegetables and would do that on any diet if at all possible.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »From my standpoint, and the reason I take part in this particular debate is I feel that some are proliferating a myth that you can't eat a healthy amount of veggies and remain low carb, and that just isn't true.
But I have quite carefully explained that I am not saying that. For me counting vegetables would be counterproductive, but I believe you can have a perfectly healthy diet while low carbing.
What I am reacting to -- and some of this relates to past conversations -- are people pushing the notion that it's not important at all to eat vegetables and that when it comes to carbs the lower the better and the main problem with the US diet is carbs. I do think it's just the flip side of the fat fear and no more helpful.
So your entire argument is based off a few misguided extremist as opposed to the collective group? If so, maybe your views need to change slightly based on the majority...
In my life, the anti-veg low carbers are the majority. It really depends on who you know.
Groups are defined by their extremes.
I personally think that MFPers of all sorts are not likely the average of whatever group they feel like they belong to and are generally more health conscious.
So are the no vegetable, multi-vitamins for your micro's IIFYMers and low carbers the horse-shoe politics of ways of eating?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »From my standpoint, and the reason I take part in this particular debate is I feel that some are proliferating a myth that you can't eat a healthy amount of veggies and remain low carb, and that just isn't true.
But I have quite carefully explained that I am not saying that. For me counting vegetables would be counterproductive, but I believe you can have a perfectly healthy diet while low carbing.
What I am reacting to -- and some of this relates to past conversations -- are people pushing the notion that it's not important at all to eat vegetables and that when it comes to carbs the lower the better and the main problem with the US diet is carbs. I do think it's just the flip side of the fat fear and no more helpful.
So your entire argument is based off a few misguided extremist as opposed to the collective group? If so, maybe your views need to change slightly based on the majority...
In my life, the anti-veg low carbers are the majority. It really depends on who you know.
Groups are defined by their extremes.
I personally think that MFPers of all sorts are not likely the average of whatever group they feel like they belong to and are generally more health conscious.
So are the no vegetable, multi-vitamins for your micro's IIFYMers and low carbers the horse-shoe politics of ways of eating?
Ha! I think you might be onto something.0
This discussion has been closed.
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