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Low carb and vegetables
yarwell
Posts: 10,477 Member
A follow on from psulemon's Calorie thread.
There are some people following a low carb diet / lifestyle who eat few or no vegetables, like Tommy in Sweden who often eats one large meat based meal a day with butter and posts them on his blog. A less extreme Swede is Dr Andreas Eenfeldt who says to eat all the vegetables you like as long as they grow above the ground. Atkins (US) has both a 20 and a 40 grams a day plan using "net carbs" (excluding fiber and sugar alcohols) which in the UK is 20g of carbohydrates (we don't lump fibre under carbs) in Phase 1 with 12-15 grams from vegetables.
So low carb does not mean no vegetables, although some individuals may make that choice just as there are people that eat high carb with zero vegetables.
The typical "Atkins" vegetables are not only low in carbohydrate content, but the GI of that carbohydrate is also very low -
Carbs g/100g
Green beans 3.2
Brussels sprouts 4.1
Cauliflower 3.0
Savoy cabbage 4.1
Spinach 1.6
Kale 1.4
Mushroom 0.4
Romaine lettuce 1.7
Asparagus 2.0
Broccoli 1.8
So one can eat 200 grams of veg (half of the WHO's "five a day") and take in less than 10g of carbohydrate, with a blood sugar impact equivalent to 2 grams of glucose or less. My n=1 experience of this is that a typical "meat and two veg" low carb meal accompanied by a glass of dry wine has literally zero effect on my blood sugar level measured continuously.
I propose that eating a low carbohydrate diet, even a ketogenic diet, is entirely compatible with vegetable consumption although obviously one has to avoid / limit the higher starch or sweeter root veg.
There are some people following a low carb diet / lifestyle who eat few or no vegetables, like Tommy in Sweden who often eats one large meat based meal a day with butter and posts them on his blog. A less extreme Swede is Dr Andreas Eenfeldt who says to eat all the vegetables you like as long as they grow above the ground. Atkins (US) has both a 20 and a 40 grams a day plan using "net carbs" (excluding fiber and sugar alcohols) which in the UK is 20g of carbohydrates (we don't lump fibre under carbs) in Phase 1 with 12-15 grams from vegetables.
So low carb does not mean no vegetables, although some individuals may make that choice just as there are people that eat high carb with zero vegetables.
The typical "Atkins" vegetables are not only low in carbohydrate content, but the GI of that carbohydrate is also very low -
Carbs g/100g
Green beans 3.2
Brussels sprouts 4.1
Cauliflower 3.0
Savoy cabbage 4.1
Spinach 1.6
Kale 1.4
Mushroom 0.4
Romaine lettuce 1.7
Asparagus 2.0
Broccoli 1.8
So one can eat 200 grams of veg (half of the WHO's "five a day") and take in less than 10g of carbohydrate, with a blood sugar impact equivalent to 2 grams of glucose or less. My n=1 experience of this is that a typical "meat and two veg" low carb meal accompanied by a glass of dry wine has literally zero effect on my blood sugar level measured continuously.
I propose that eating a low carbohydrate diet, even a ketogenic diet, is entirely compatible with vegetable consumption although obviously one has to avoid / limit the higher starch or sweeter root veg.
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Replies
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I eat LCHF. The majority of the carbs I eat come from vegetables. I know some low carb-ers eat no veggies but I don't think that's the norm.0
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I think it's weird to worry abut how many veg you eat. If someone low carb eats veg, though, good for them.0
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I eat more fruits (berries/melon/grapefruit) and veggies following LC than I normally did following a SAD.1
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I eat more fruits (berries/melon/grapefruit) and veggies following LC than I normally did following a SAD.
That always wondered me. By definition you have less of a window to allow for fruit and veggies on LC yet so many say they only started really eating them once they started LC.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »I eat more fruits (berries/melon/grapefruit) and veggies following LC than I normally did following a SAD.
That always wondered me. By definition you have less of a window to allow for fruit and veggies on LC yet so many say they only started really eating them once they started LC.
Well, for most people transitioning into LCHF, I assume they were eating carbs in places of vegetables to feel more full. Personally, I eat way more vegetables doing Keto/LCHF because I'm not stuffing my face with potatoes or rice.
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stevencloser wrote: »I eat more fruits (berries/melon/grapefruit) and veggies following LC than I normally did following a SAD.
That always wondered me. By definition you have less of a window to allow for fruit and veggies on LC yet so many say they only started really eating them once they started LC.
If I have bacon, eggs and hashbrowns for breakfast that doesn't leave much room (volume) for anything else. So now that I cut out the carbs from the hashbrowns I replaced them with the carbs from fruit. Instead of cake for dessert I'll have 100g of strawberries with whipped cream.
Instead of mashed potatoes I have cauliflower mash, rice was replaced with cauliflower rice mixed with konjac rice. When Pasta is needed to carry a dish, I use zoodles etc.
If I'm still hungry and have no calories/macros left, I'll have lettuce with vinegarette to fill me up.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I think it's weird to worry abut how many veg you eat. If someone low carb eats veg, though, good for them.
Weird to worry that you're eating too many, that you're not eating enough, or both?0 -
I eat more fruits (berries/melon/grapefruit) and veggies following LC than I normally did following a SAD.
That was because you ate a poor diet before going low carb.
It's not like it's tough to eat adequate veg and fruit (I don't think fruit matters, but it's tasty) on a normal diet.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I think it's weird to worry abut how many veg you eat. If someone low carb eats veg, though, good for them.
Weird to worry that you're eating too many, that you're not eating enough, or both?
Weird to worry you are eating too many. I log veg, but don't limit them and think limiting them would be weird.
Also "about" -- don't know what was wrong with me.0 -
auntchiladas wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I eat more fruits (berries/melon/grapefruit) and veggies following LC than I normally did following a SAD.
That always wondered me. By definition you have less of a window to allow for fruit and veggies on LC yet so many say they only started really eating them once they started LC.
Well, for most people transitioning into LCHF, I assume they were eating carbs in places of vegetables to feel more full. Personally, I eat way more vegetables doing Keto/LCHF because I'm not stuffing my face with potatoes or rice.
+1
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lemurcat12 wrote: »I think it's weird to worry abut how many veg you eat. If someone low carb eats veg, though, good for them.
Who's "worrying" about it. Some people seem to get stressed about what others eat, others are just making personal choices.1 -
If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
I eat more veg than average for the UK now, and probably did before. As someone said further up the thread I have more veg on the plate now the beige stuff is gone.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
I eat more veg than average for the UK now, and probably did before. As someone said further up the thread I have more veg on the plate now the beige stuff is gone.
That you ate a bad diet before is not a recommendation.
I agree that one CAN eat a sensible diet despite being low carb, of course, but lowering veg consumption is usually not a good idea and if one didn't eat veg before going low carb, that was because you ate a bad diet.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I think it's weird to worry abut how many veg you eat. If someone low carb eats veg, though, good for them.
Who's "worrying" about it. Some people seem to get stressed about what others eat, others are just making personal choices.
I'm a special case, but I was one of the people who "worried" about them when I tried the diet because almost everything has at least a gram or two of carbs (like tea, coffee, cheese, cream, nuts, some types of cold cuts and sausages..etc) which left me with about 10 grams or less of net carbs for vegetables. That's the amount of vegetables I'm accustomed to consuming for a single snack, let alone a full meal. No wonder I felt neurotic about having to limit my vegetables and felt hungry all the time.
Curious: how do people on low carb handle these stray carbs in stuff? Or do they tend to consume things that don't have them in order to fit in vegetables? Or was I being too obsessive counting each cup of tea (large 16 oz cup) as a gram of carbs?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
I eat more veg than average for the UK now, and probably did before. As someone said further up the thread I have more veg on the plate now the beige stuff is gone.
That you ate a bad diet before is not a recommendation.
I agree that one CAN eat a sensible diet despite being low carb, of course, but lowering veg consumption is usually not a good idea and if one didn't eat veg before going low carb, that was because you ate a bad diet.
Yeah, but my understanding was that there is an opinion that a low carb eating plan is undesirable because it essentially limits the amount of veggies which can be consumed and that is bad. I think the stance taken by @Yarwell is that while the carb limiting does cap the amount of veggies, it doesn't do so to an extent that it is detrimental to health.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.1 -
hopeandtheabsurd wrote: »Wow. Apparently I missed the memo that lemurcat12 is the sole arbiter of what is a bad diet.
I also ate more veggies when eating low carb. They replaced starchier carbs (grains and starchy veggies).
If you somehow eat more vegetables at <50 grams of carbs available and in a deficit than with 300+ at maintenance, your diet was pretty bad probably.
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stevencloser wrote: »I eat more fruits (berries/melon/grapefruit) and veggies following LC than I normally did following a SAD.
That always wondered me. By definition you have less of a window to allow for fruit and veggies on LC yet so many say they only started really eating them once they started LC.
If I have bacon, eggs and hashbrowns for breakfast that doesn't leave much room (volume) for anything else. So now that I cut out the carbs from the hashbrowns I replaced them with the carbs from fruit. Instead of cake for dessert I'll have 100g of strawberries with whipped cream.
Instead of mashed potatoes I have cauliflower mash, rice was replaced with cauliflower rice mixed with konjac rice. When Pasta is needed to carry a dish, I use zoodles etc.
If I'm still hungry and have no calories/macros left, I'll have lettuce with vinegarette to fill me up.
That's the confusing thing. Nothing stopped you eating any of that before going low carb. In fact you could've probably had any of that on top of the carbs you were already eating with no problem.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I eat more fruits (berries/melon/grapefruit) and veggies following LC than I normally did following a SAD.
That always wondered me. By definition you have less of a window to allow for fruit and veggies on LC yet so many say they only started really eating them once they started LC.
If I have bacon, eggs and hashbrowns for breakfast that doesn't leave much room (volume) for anything else. So now that I cut out the carbs from the hashbrowns I replaced them with the carbs from fruit. Instead of cake for dessert I'll have 100g of strawberries with whipped cream.
Instead of mashed potatoes I have cauliflower mash, rice was replaced with cauliflower rice mixed with konjac rice. When Pasta is needed to carry a dish, I use zoodles etc.
If I'm still hungry and have no calories/macros left, I'll have lettuce with vinegarette to fill me up.
That's the confusing thing. Nothing stopped you eating any of that before going low carb. In fact you could've probably had any of that on top of the carbs you were already eating with no problem.
Precisely!0 -
hopeandtheabsurd wrote: »Wow. Apparently I missed the memo that lemurcat12 is the sole arbiter of what is a bad diet.
I also ate more veggies when eating low carb. They replaced starchier carbs (grains and starchy veggies).
You didn't miss the memo for that. You missed all the memos from a lot experts that lemurcat12 is basing her statements on.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
I eat more veg than average for the UK now, and probably did before. As someone said further up the thread I have more veg on the plate now the beige stuff is gone.
That you ate a bad diet before is not a recommendation.
I agree that one CAN eat a sensible diet despite being low carb, of course, but lowering veg consumption is usually not a good idea and if one didn't eat veg before going low carb, that was because you ate a bad diet.
Yeah, but my understanding was that there is an opinion that a low carb eating plan is undesirable because it essentially limits the amount of veggies which can be consumed and that is bad. I think the stance taken by @Yarwell is that while the carb limiting does cap the amount of veggies, it doesn't do so to an extent that it is detrimental to health.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Like I said before, I think low carb diets can be healthy and not.
Low carb + no veg is unhealthy (and apparently a thing in the low carb forum) but not necessary. Low carb plus veg is great, although if you didn't eat veg before going low carb it's on you.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I agree. Yet MANY folks on here eat virtually no vegetables.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I think you're kind of overlooking the fact that many vegetables are low carb. So when shifting to a low carb plan, you would naturally shift to low carb options.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I think you're kind of overlooking the fact that many vegetables are low carb. So when shifting to a low carb plan, you would naturally shift to low carb options.
They're only low carb by virtue of being low cal and as such would fit into any eating plan. By percentage of calories, most vegetables are nowhere near low carb if you were to have more than a handful of calories of them.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
I eat more veg than average for the UK now, and probably did before. As someone said further up the thread I have more veg on the plate now the beige stuff is gone.
That you ate a bad diet before is not a recommendation.
I agree that one CAN eat a sensible diet despite being low carb, of course, but lowering veg consumption is usually not a good idea and if one didn't eat veg before going low carb, that was because you ate a bad diet.
Yeah, but my understanding was that there is an opinion that a low carb eating plan is undesirable because it essentially limits the amount of veggies which can be consumed and that is bad. I think the stance taken by @Yarwell is that while the carb limiting does cap the amount of veggies, it doesn't do so to an extent that it is detrimental to health.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Like I said before, I think low carb diets can be healthy and not.
Low carb + no veg is unhealthy (and apparently a thing in the low carb forum) but not necessary. Low carb plus veg is great, although if you didn't eat veg before going low carb it's on you.
I would say that it CAN be unhealthy. I might even go as far to say it is somewhat risky, but necessarily always unhealthy.
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They are low carb in terms of carbs per serving, which is the main focus of most low carb plans.stevencloser wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I think you're kind of overlooking the fact that many vegetables are low carb. So when shifting to a low carb plan, you would naturally shift to low carb options.
They're only low carb by virtue of being low cal and as such would fit into any eating plan. By percentage of calories, most vegetables are nowhere near low carb if you were to have more than a handful of calories of them.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
Nope. It's not. That said, many folks vastly improve their diets when they begin eating low carb. And, yes, many eat more plant foods than the folks who tell them a low carb diet isn't healthy. That's part of the irony.
I just think it's weird to eat so few veg that you eat more by going low carb. Super weird.
I think you're kind of overlooking the fact that many vegetables are low carb. So when shifting to a low carb plan, you would naturally shift to low carb options.
It seems unlikely that going low carb by itself is going to lead to increasing vegetable intake, given carb limits means vegetables will push out other items people usually prefer. This doesn't mean people going low carb don't ever increase vegetables - I don't know the statistics. I would just imagine that the drive behind the increase is not that they have less carbs available to them (seems contradictory) but either they are trying to improve their health (both with increased vegetables and low carbing to reduce weight) or improve satiety.
I do concur that from what I see, there do appear to be low carbers that take up low carb as a rational for avoiding vegetables. Which it is their body, they can do what they want, but I don't think the science backs up the notion of it being a particularly healthy WOE at that point.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If one ate fewer veg before going low carb (and limiting veg), one ate a ridiculously poor diet and is not a good example.
Yes, lots of Americans eat a poor diet. This is not a recommendation.
I eat more veg than average for the UK now, and probably did before. As someone said further up the thread I have more veg on the plate now the beige stuff is gone.
That you ate a bad diet before is not a recommendation.
I agree that one CAN eat a sensible diet despite being low carb, of course, but lowering veg consumption is usually not a good idea and if one didn't eat veg before going low carb, that was because you ate a bad diet.
Yeah, but my understanding was that there is an opinion that a low carb eating plan is undesirable because it essentially limits the amount of veggies which can be consumed and that is bad. I think the stance taken by @Yarwell is that while the carb limiting does cap the amount of veggies, it doesn't do so to an extent that it is detrimental to health.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Like I said before, I think low carb diets can be healthy and not.
Low carb + no veg is unhealthy (and apparently a thing in the low carb forum) but not necessary. Low carb plus veg is great, although if you didn't eat veg before going low carb it's on you.
I don't know how much it is "a thing", but I tend to think it may be an effect of the "carb war", that actually push people to extremism...0
This discussion has been closed.
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