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Low carb and vegetables
Replies
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lithezebra wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »It's hard to find the WHO 5-a-day recommendations. According to Wikipedia, the WHO recommendation is a minimum of 400 grams of vegetables a day, excluding potatoes and other starchy tubers. And then there is a recommendation from a study out of University College, London, to double that recommendation, to 10-a-day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_A_Day
Oh, and here's the American iteration of 5-a-day, "More Matters," which adjusts the recommendations to anywhere from 2 to 6.5 cups of veggies/fruits a day, dependent on your caloric needs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruits_&_Veggies_–_More_Matters
http://www.fruitsandveggiesmorematters.org/
I also cannot find the original resolution, but here is an excerpt of the current recommendations:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs394/en/
So people keep referring to WHO recommendations, but the whole issue revolves around blatently ignoring the first recommendation:A healthy diet contains:- Fruits, vegetables, legumes (e.g. lentils, beans), nuts and whole grains (e.g. unprocessed maize, millet, oats, wheat, brown rice).
- At least 400 g (5 portions) of fruits and vegetables a day (2). Potatoes, sweet potatoes, cassava and other starchy roots are not classified as fruits or vegetables.
- Less than 10% of total energy intake from free sugars (2, 5) which is equivalent to 50 g (or around 12 level teaspoons) for a person of healthy body weight consuming approximately 2000 calories per day, but ideally less than 5% of total energy intake for additional health benefits (5). Most free sugars are added to foods or drinks by the manufacturer, cook or consumer, and can also be found in sugars naturally present in honey, syrups, fruit juices and fruit juice concentrates.
- Less than 30% of total energy intake from fats (1, 2, 3). Unsaturated fats (e.g. found in fish, avocado, nuts, sunflower, canola and olive oils) are preferable to saturated fats (e.g. found in fatty meat, butter, palm and coconut oil, cream, cheese, ghee and lard) (3). Industrial trans fats (found in processed food, fast food, snack food, fried food, frozen pizza, pies, cookies, margarines and spreads) are not part of a healthy diet.
- Less than 5 g of salt (equivalent to approximately 1 teaspoon) per day (6) and use iodized salt.
Guidelines that are very high in carbs don't work well for a lot of people suffering from blood sugar disorders. Many people also get blood lipid improvements with a lower carb diet. This thread is about eating vegetables on a low carb diet, not about eating them on a high carb diet.
Actually, the recommendation to limit saturated fats promotes blood sugar control.
Not to mention that many people have achieved blood sugar control through diet and exercise without having to go low carb.0 -
I've been doing a low carb style diet for a bit. Not sure if I will continue low carb for a long time. I was fearing vegetable intake and I know better.. So I'm going to eat my veggies lol. And it may raise my carb levels but it will be fine I'm sure.0
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I fail to understand why carbs are bad and then vegetables are also bad, because they put one over X carb intake...0
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Re: the whole "I eat more vegetables now I have gone low carb" idea.
Is that some form of perceived deprivation / scarcity = greater desirability and mindfulness to include in your diet type thing.
Anecdotally, many, many years ago I went on an all inclusive holiday. You know the drill - all the fried food, baked goods and watered down booze you can get down your gullet type thing.
After about two days the only thing I was really, really craving was a nice, home made stir fry made with a ton of veg and boiled basmati rice.
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I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).0 -
lithezebra wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »It's hard to find the WHO 5-a-day recommendations. According to Wikipedia, the WHO recommendation is a minimum of 400 grams of vegetables a day, excluding potatoes and other starchy tubers. And then there is a recommendation from a study out of University College, London, to double that recommendation, to 10-a-day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_A_Day
Oh, and here's the American iteration of 5-a-day, "More Matters," which adjusts the recommendations to anywhere from 2 to 6.5 cups of veggies/fruits a day, dependent on your caloric needs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruits_&_Veggies_–_More_Matters
http://www.fruitsandveggiesmorematters.org/
I also cannot find the original resolution, but here is an excerpt of the current recommendations:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs394/en/
So people keep referring to WHO recommendations, but the whole issue revolves around blatently ignoring the first recommendation:A healthy diet contains:- Fruits, vegetables, legumes (e.g. lentils, beans), nuts and whole grains (e.g. unprocessed maize, millet, oats, wheat, brown rice).
- At least 400 g (5 portions) of fruits and vegetables a day (2). Potatoes, sweet potatoes, cassava and other starchy roots are not classified as fruits or vegetables.
- Less than 10% of total energy intake from free sugars (2, 5) which is equivalent to 50 g (or around 12 level teaspoons) for a person of healthy body weight consuming approximately 2000 calories per day, but ideally less than 5% of total energy intake for additional health benefits (5). Most free sugars are added to foods or drinks by the manufacturer, cook or consumer, and can also be found in sugars naturally present in honey, syrups, fruit juices and fruit juice concentrates.
- Less than 30% of total energy intake from fats (1, 2, 3). Unsaturated fats (e.g. found in fish, avocado, nuts, sunflower, canola and olive oils) are preferable to saturated fats (e.g. found in fatty meat, butter, palm and coconut oil, cream, cheese, ghee and lard) (3). Industrial trans fats (found in processed food, fast food, snack food, fried food, frozen pizza, pies, cookies, margarines and spreads) are not part of a healthy diet.
- Less than 5 g of salt (equivalent to approximately 1 teaspoon) per day (6) and use iodized salt.
Guidelines that are very high in carbs don't work well for a lot of people suffering from blood sugar disorders. Many people also get blood lipid improvements with a lower carb diet. This thread is about eating vegetables on a low carb diet, not about eating them on a high carb diet.
Actually, the recommendation to limit saturated fats promotes blood sugar control.
Directly, or indirectly? I've seen recommendations that claim that limiting saturated fat promotes blood sugar control by preventing obesity, and I'm somewhat skeptical that saturated fat should be singled out. I'm also skeptical because I come from a family of thin type 2 diabetics. I've seen some claims that fat raises blood sugar directly, for some people. A lot of people seem to get better blood sugar control by eating less sugar, and less grain.
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I wasn't speaking of keto.amusedmonkey wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »I find this discussion really interesting to read. If someone asked me how to do a low carb diet I'd say: protein (meat) and veg with every meal.
I wouldn't go as far as "with every meal". At least not in any reasonable portions. There simply is not enough carbs in the typical 20 net carb keto plan to accommodate a reasonable portion with every meal, unless you severely limit the vegetable choices or their portions. Now a 50 gram net carbs plan would be more reasonable. Here is a snack I had today:
Clearly eating a tomato and a green beans would not be the best choices for vegetables since that would consume 16 grams of net carbs, even though they are not starchy or high carb per se. If you had cheese or a few nuts on that day, you're basically done for the day and can't fit in any more vegetables.
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DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
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DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
Irrelevant to what though? Given the number of people that say low carb or keto caused their weight loss, curbed their appetite, fixed their cat's lock of stealing socks, or as some I've seen, even said it has cured medical needs for rather serious prescriptions that should not be started or stopped lightly, I have to ask how is it not relevant to question the low carb part as the cure when diet was so poor to begin with? It seems like it could have just been the case that any alteration to the diet would have been an improvement, and it would have the bonus that you're not getting guilt by association with people that claim they're living healthier by never eating a vegetable.0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
Why? It's equally possible that they eat the veg and reduce protein and fat sources. Plenty of dieters, esp vegetarians/vegans do the 'if I eat all these really good veg, then I can have those sweets/veg*n sweets'. Since veg is usually pretty low in calories, they can have a good amount of those sweets and still easily hit 5-a-day.
If they're not careful, they won't consistently hit protein and fat minimums on this type of diet so it's usually not a healthy way to go, but I don't think it's all that unusual.0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I ate low starch, but got plenty of veg and some sweets on 1250. Feel free to look back to 2014, when I logged more consistently.0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
Why? It's equally possible that they eat the veg and reduce protein and fat sources. Plenty of dieters, esp vegetarians/vegans do the 'if I eat all these really good veg, then I can have those sweets/veg*n sweets'. Since veg is usually pretty low in calories, they can have a good amount of those sweets and still easily hit 5-a-day.
If they're not careful, they won't consistently hit protein and fat minimums on this type of diet so it's usually not a healthy way to go, but I don't think it's all that unusual.
well, that wouldn't be a standard reduced-calorie diet, but I see that we agree that it wouldn't be healthy anyway.
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Irrelevant to what though? Given the number of people that say low carb or keto caused their weight loss, curbed their appetite, fixed their cat's lock of stealing socks, or as some I've seen, even said it has cured medical needs for rather serious prescriptions that should not be started or stopped lightly, I have to ask how is it not relevant to question the low carb part as the cure when diet was so poor to begin with? It seems like it could have just been the case that any alteration to the diet would have been an improvement, and it would have the bonus that you're not getting guilt by association with people that claim they're living healthier by never eating a vegetable.
Irrelevant because the question is if low carb encourages vegetable consumption, which I agree it does. So then I was equally irrelevant in suggesting the main benefit of a low carb diet as opposed to a diet which follows the macros laid out by MFP (assuming calories are the same, CICO and all that for weight loss) is that it is more satiating than this model. This would be easier to stick to for a lot of people as there is no need to battle "cravings" or even actual hunger signals. There are a lot of benefits to fat consumption. Is there a thread for that already?
Everyone I have seen announce a change in medication did so after visiting their doctors and being told they could do so due to positive results in their numbers (diabetes or cholesterol related, generally).
But this isn't a low carb pro/con thread. Do a majority of low carbers generally eat more vegetables than SAD? Yes. Do vegetarians eat more vegetables then low carbers? Yes! Is more necessarily better? Only up to a point.0 -
I am not really dedicated to following a low carb plan on purpose, but have completely eliminated all "bad" carbs such as potatoes, rice, baked goods, all processed foods, etc. I also have an allergy to dairy so have not consumed any for years, plus have given up all wheat about 2 years ago when my husband realized he had an intolerance. I try to get in protein at each meal and have absolutely no limit on veggies, I eat those until Im full.
I did not eat unhealthy in the past, have not had any processed anything for years but did notice that when I became a bit more strict about limiting "white" carbs and wheat my energy rebounded, and I felt more alert and active.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I ate low starch, but got plenty of veg and some sweets on 1250. Feel free to look back to 2014, when I logged more consistently.
OK, let's run a report on April 2014, shall we?
So as I see you ate ice cream or gelato... twice, on 5th and 20th.
In both occasions, you went over your calorie allotment (1441 and 1568).
That should be already enough, to prove my point, but if we look closer, we can see that on April 5th you ate just 356 g of vegetables (no fruit), so slightly below the 400g recommendation...
April 5, 2014
FOODS Calories Carbs Fat Protein Cholest Sodium Sugars Fiber
Early Morning
Squash - Zucchini, includes skin, raw, 91 g 15 3g 0g 1g 0mg 9mg 2g 1g
Cauliflower - Raw, 80 g 20 4g 0g 2g 0mg 24mg 2g 2g
Pearson - Blackeye Peas, 1/4 cup (85g) (3oz) 59 11g 0g 4g 0mg 153mg 1g 3g
Beef - Loin, bottom sirloin butt, tri-tip steak, lean only, raw, 3 oz 131 0g 7g 18g 55mg 47mg 0g 0g
Oil - Olive, 0.3 tablespoon 36 0g 4g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Essential Everyday - 1% Low Fat Cottage Cheese, 1/2 cup (115g) 90 5g 2g 13g 10mg 450mg 4g 0g
Lunch
Butter - Unsalted, 1 tbsp 102 0g 12g 0g 31mg 2mg 0g 0g
Oil - Vegetable, canola, 1 tbsp 124 0g 14g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Tomatoes - Green, raw, 5 slice or wedge 23 5g 0g 1g 0mg 13mg 4g 1g
Beef - Short Ribs, 6 oz 330 0g 23g 39g 119mg 74mg 0g 0g
Potatoes - White, flesh and skin, raw, 200 g 140 31g 0g 3g 0mg 12mg 2g 5g
Wheat flour - White, all-purpose, enriched, bleached, 0.2 cup 91 19g 0g 3g 0mg 1mg 0g 1g
Afternoon
Bryers - Butter Pecan Ice Cream, 1 cup 280 36g 12g 4g 20mg 200mg 24g 0g
TOTAL: 1,441 114g 74g 88g 235mg 985mg 39g 13g
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I am not really dedicated to following a low carb plan on purpose, but have completely eliminated all "bad" carbs such as potatoes, rice, baked goods, all processed foods, etc. I also have an allergy to dairy so have not consumed any for years, plus have given up all wheat about 2 years ago when my husband realized he had an intolerance. I try to get in protein at each meal and have absolutely no limit on veggies, I eat those until Im full.
I did not eat unhealthy in the past, have not had any processed anything for years but did notice that when I became a bit more strict about limiting "white" carbs and wheat my energy rebounded, and I felt more alert and active.
I just want to point out that rice and potatoes aren't unhealthy. In fact, potatoes are full of nutrients: potassium, vitamin C, magnesium and more. On top of that, the potato will satiate people more than fat will. In fact, it's one of the highest rated foods in terms of satiety. They, along with rice, get a bad name because people don't understand dietary context.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I ate low starch, but got plenty of veg and some sweets on 1250. Feel free to look back to 2014, when I logged more consistently.
Thanks for offering. No sarcasm or anything, I'm really thankful for people like you who have logged well and are willing to share.
I just did a quick sample of 2 weeks from 3/23/2014 - 4/8/2014 and I did find it interesting to note that you were low carb during that time, averaging 79g with your highest total being 140 and lowest being 48. It's not consistently low enough for keto, but it was a nice regimen for a low carber who is afraid that they will be required to give up veggies.0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
Why? It's equally possible that they eat the veg and reduce protein and fat sources. Plenty of dieters, esp vegetarians/vegans do the 'if I eat all these really good veg, then I can have those sweets/veg*n sweets'. Since veg is usually pretty low in calories, they can have a good amount of those sweets and still easily hit 5-a-day.
If they're not careful, they won't consistently hit protein and fat minimums on this type of diet so it's usually not a healthy way to go, but I don't think it's all that unusual.
well, that wouldn't be a standard reduced-calorie diet, but I see that we agree that it wouldn't be healthy anyway.
Is there a standard? Or do you mean if you just reduce cals and follow SAD?
Honestly, if one is careful, it's not all that hard to hit 5-a-day and get your macros in on 1300 cals. The trick is to make the sweets/starch do double duty and contain a decent amount of fat and/or protein. Like cottage cheese pancakes with melted chocolate and peanut butter, for example.
ETA: Meant to say 'and still have sweets/starches'. Man, it's been a long day already.0 -
I am not really dedicated to following a low carb plan on purpose, but have completely eliminated all "bad" carbs such as potatoes, rice, baked goods, all processed foods, etc. I also have an allergy to dairy so have not consumed any for years, plus have given up all wheat about 2 years ago when my husband realized he had an intolerance. I try to get in protein at each meal and have absolutely no limit on veggies, I eat those until Im full.
I did not eat unhealthy in the past, have not had any processed anything for years but did notice that when I became a bit more strict about limiting "white" carbs and wheat my energy rebounded, and I felt more alert and active.
why are potatoes and rice bad carbs?0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
I wasn't speaking of keto.amusedmonkey wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »I find this discussion really interesting to read. If someone asked me how to do a low carb diet I'd say: protein (meat) and veg with every meal.
I wouldn't go as far as "with every meal". At least not in any reasonable portions. There simply is not enough carbs in the typical 20 net carb keto plan to accommodate a reasonable portion with every meal, unless you severely limit the vegetable choices or their portions. Now a 50 gram net carbs plan would be more reasonable. Here is a snack I had today:
Clearly eating a tomato and a green beans would not be the best choices for vegetables since that would consume 16 grams of net carbs, even though they are not starchy or high carb per se. If you had cheese or a few nuts on that day, you're basically done for the day and can't fit in any more vegetables.
On general low carb diet, you would be correct. I even stated it would be reasonable on a milder version of keto.0 -
DorkothyParker wrote: »Do a majority of low carbers generally eat more vegetables than SAD? Yes.
There's no basis for this claim.
So far as I can tell most low carbers were anti veg which is what caused them to incline to low carb.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I ate low starch, but got plenty of veg and some sweets on 1250. Feel free to look back to 2014, when I logged more consistently.
Thanks for offering. No sarcasm or anything, I'm really thankful for people like you who have logged well and are willing to share.
I just did a quick sample of 2 weeks from 3/23/2014 - 4/8/2014 and I did find it interesting to note that you were low carb during that time, averaging 79g with your highest total being 140 and lowest being 48. It's not consistently low enough for keto, but it was a nice regimen for a low carber who is afraid that they will be required to give up veggies.
I didn't try to eat low carb at all -- that's just how my preferences are, as I have to try to force myself to eat more starches. I find it odd that people overeat pasta or bread.0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I ate low starch, but got plenty of veg and some sweets on 1250. Feel free to look back to 2014, when I logged more consistently.
OK, let's run a report on April 2014, shall we?
So as I see you ate ice cream or gelato... twice, on 5th and 20th.
In both occasions, you went over your calorie allotment (1441 and 1568).
That should be already enough, to prove my point, but if we look closer, we can see that on April 5th you ate just 356 g of vegetables (no fruit), so slightly below the 400g recommendation...
April 5, 2014
FOODS Calories Carbs Fat Protein Cholest Sodium Sugars Fiber
Early Morning
Squash - Zucchini, includes skin, raw, 91 g 15 3g 0g 1g 0mg 9mg 2g 1g
Cauliflower - Raw, 80 g 20 4g 0g 2g 0mg 24mg 2g 2g
Pearson - Blackeye Peas, 1/4 cup (85g) (3oz) 59 11g 0g 4g 0mg 153mg 1g 3g
Beef - Loin, bottom sirloin butt, tri-tip steak, lean only, raw, 3 oz 131 0g 7g 18g 55mg 47mg 0g 0g
Oil - Olive, 0.3 tablespoon 36 0g 4g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Essential Everyday - 1% Low Fat Cottage Cheese, 1/2 cup (115g) 90 5g 2g 13g 10mg 450mg 4g 0g
Lunch
Butter - Unsalted, 1 tbsp 102 0g 12g 0g 31mg 2mg 0g 0g
Oil - Vegetable, canola, 1 tbsp 124 0g 14g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Tomatoes - Green, raw, 5 slice or wedge 23 5g 0g 1g 0mg 13mg 4g 1g
Beef - Short Ribs, 6 oz 330 0g 23g 39g 119mg 74mg 0g 0g
Potatoes - White, flesh and skin, raw, 200 g 140 31g 0g 3g 0mg 12mg 2g 5g
Wheat flour - White, all-purpose, enriched, bleached, 0.2 cup 91 19g 0g 3g 0mg 1mg 0g 1g
Afternoon
Bryers - Butter Pecan Ice Cream, 1 cup 280 36g 12g 4g 20mg 200mg 24g 0g
TOTAL: 1,441 114g 74g 88g 235mg 985mg 39g 13g
Point?0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I ate low starch, but got plenty of veg and some sweets on 1250. Feel free to look back to 2014, when I logged more consistently.
OK, let's run a report on April 2014, shall we?
So as I see you ate ice cream or gelato... twice, on 5th and 20th.
In both occasions, you went over your calorie allotment (1441 and 1568).
That should be already enough, to prove my point, but if we look closer, we can see that on April 5th you ate just 356 g of vegetables (no fruit), so slightly below the 400g recommendation...
April 5, 2014
FOODS Calories Carbs Fat Protein Cholest Sodium Sugars Fiber
Early Morning
Squash - Zucchini, includes skin, raw, 91 g 15 3g 0g 1g 0mg 9mg 2g 1g
Cauliflower - Raw, 80 g 20 4g 0g 2g 0mg 24mg 2g 2g
Pearson - Blackeye Peas, 1/4 cup (85g) (3oz) 59 11g 0g 4g 0mg 153mg 1g 3g
Beef - Loin, bottom sirloin butt, tri-tip steak, lean only, raw, 3 oz 131 0g 7g 18g 55mg 47mg 0g 0g
Oil - Olive, 0.3 tablespoon 36 0g 4g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Essential Everyday - 1% Low Fat Cottage Cheese, 1/2 cup (115g) 90 5g 2g 13g 10mg 450mg 4g 0g
Lunch
Butter - Unsalted, 1 tbsp 102 0g 12g 0g 31mg 2mg 0g 0g
Oil - Vegetable, canola, 1 tbsp 124 0g 14g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Tomatoes - Green, raw, 5 slice or wedge 23 5g 0g 1g 0mg 13mg 4g 1g
Beef - Short Ribs, 6 oz 330 0g 23g 39g 119mg 74mg 0g 0g
Potatoes - White, flesh and skin, raw, 200 g 140 31g 0g 3g 0mg 12mg 2g 5g
Wheat flour - White, all-purpose, enriched, bleached, 0.2 cup 91 19g 0g 3g 0mg 1mg 0g 1g
Afternoon
Bryers - Butter Pecan Ice Cream, 1 cup 280 36g 12g 4g 20mg 200mg 24g 0g
TOTAL: 1,441 114g 74g 88g 235mg 985mg 39g 13g
so you found two days where she went over, spaced out in between 15 days...?
funny, on april 7th she hit about 1300 and had gelato....
missed that day?0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
That's not entirely correct. Since it's possible to get the minimum vegetable recommendation on a 50 gram carb diet, that's roughly 100-200 calories of vegetables. If you add 300-400 calories of protein, I'd say it's possible to have sugary treats AND have a relatively healthy and balanced diet. A 2-finger kitkat is only 100 calories. Heck, even a standard candy bar is usually around 200-250 calories, leaving 400 calories for fat and other stuff on a 1200 calorie diet.
I don't understand this double standard when a typical low carb high fat dieter consumes the majority of their calories in fat, which doesn't really come with an impressive nutrient density per calorie.
This shows that with a bit of attention and planning, one can consume a relatively healthy diet even on the most restrictive diets. I would even argue a standard very low calorie diet (800 calories) is capable of accommodating the minimum 5-a day.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I ate low starch, but got plenty of veg and some sweets on 1250. Feel free to look back to 2014, when I logged more consistently.
OK, let's run a report on April 2014, shall we?
So as I see you ate ice cream or gelato... twice, on 5th and 20th.
In both occasions, you went over your calorie allotment (1441 and 1568).
That should be already enough, to prove my point, but if we look closer, we can see that on April 5th you ate just 356 g of vegetables (no fruit), so slightly below the 400g recommendation...
April 5, 2014
FOODS Calories Carbs Fat Protein Cholest Sodium Sugars Fiber
Early Morning
Squash - Zucchini, includes skin, raw, 91 g 15 3g 0g 1g 0mg 9mg 2g 1g
Cauliflower - Raw, 80 g 20 4g 0g 2g 0mg 24mg 2g 2g
Pearson - Blackeye Peas, 1/4 cup (85g) (3oz) 59 11g 0g 4g 0mg 153mg 1g 3g
Beef - Loin, bottom sirloin butt, tri-tip steak, lean only, raw, 3 oz 131 0g 7g 18g 55mg 47mg 0g 0g
Oil - Olive, 0.3 tablespoon 36 0g 4g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Essential Everyday - 1% Low Fat Cottage Cheese, 1/2 cup (115g) 90 5g 2g 13g 10mg 450mg 4g 0g
Lunch
Butter - Unsalted, 1 tbsp 102 0g 12g 0g 31mg 2mg 0g 0g
Oil - Vegetable, canola, 1 tbsp 124 0g 14g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Tomatoes - Green, raw, 5 slice or wedge 23 5g 0g 1g 0mg 13mg 4g 1g
Beef - Short Ribs, 6 oz 330 0g 23g 39g 119mg 74mg 0g 0g
Potatoes - White, flesh and skin, raw, 200 g 140 31g 0g 3g 0mg 12mg 2g 5g
Wheat flour - White, all-purpose, enriched, bleached, 0.2 cup 91 19g 0g 3g 0mg 1mg 0g 1g
Afternoon
Bryers - Butter Pecan Ice Cream, 1 cup 280 36g 12g 4g 20mg 200mg 24g 0g
TOTAL: 1,441 114g 74g 88g 235mg 985mg 39g 13g
Point?...those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I think it was that while you seem to indicate (though don't specifically say) that you were able to restrict calories, eat sugary treats and eat plenty of veggies, the reviewed instances in which you did eat sugary treats you did not quite meet the standard veggie servings.
ETA:I didn't try to eat low carb at all -- that's just how my preferences are, as I have to try to force myself to eat more starches. I find it odd that people overeat pasta or bread.
Intent is irrelevant. It is kind of similar to someone who is restricting carbs and in doing so ends up restricting calories. Just because they didn't intend to restrict CI doesn't mean they didn't.
0 -
Correction: I ate my exercise calories. We are shaming people for eating back exercise calories now? Way to go, Gianfranco!0
-
lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »DorkothyParker wrote: »I would say I eat vegetables about the same. But I agree, most low carbers still have a mindset that a plate should have protein plus side dishes. Replacing said sides with cruciferous greens and such instead of rice, noodles, bread, or potatoes is likely to occur.
Meatitarians are the exception, not the rule. And I, for one, appreciate their commitment to their n=1 experiments and sharing them with us, though it is not a choice I would make for myself.
I get the whole "If you eat more veggies on low carb, then you had a crap diet" but that's sort of irrelevant. Equally irrelevant, I would say it's *easier* to be low carb on 1300 k/cal and be satiated than on a standard reduced-calorie 1300 k/cal diet, even if they are both eating the same vegetables. I would also argue that if you are satiated on a 1300 kcal diet, then maybe, if you look at your *net* carb intake, you might realize you are technically low-carb (not necessarily keto).
I would add that those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I ate low starch, but got plenty of veg and some sweets on 1250. Feel free to look back to 2014, when I logged more consistently.
OK, let's run a report on April 2014, shall we?
So as I see you ate ice cream or gelato... twice, on 5th and 20th.
In both occasions, you went over your calorie allotment (1441 and 1568).
That should be already enough, to prove my point, but if we look closer, we can see that on April 5th you ate just 356 g of vegetables (no fruit), so slightly below the 400g recommendation...
April 5, 2014
FOODS Calories Carbs Fat Protein Cholest Sodium Sugars Fiber
Early Morning
Squash - Zucchini, includes skin, raw, 91 g 15 3g 0g 1g 0mg 9mg 2g 1g
Cauliflower - Raw, 80 g 20 4g 0g 2g 0mg 24mg 2g 2g
Pearson - Blackeye Peas, 1/4 cup (85g) (3oz) 59 11g 0g 4g 0mg 153mg 1g 3g
Beef - Loin, bottom sirloin butt, tri-tip steak, lean only, raw, 3 oz 131 0g 7g 18g 55mg 47mg 0g 0g
Oil - Olive, 0.3 tablespoon 36 0g 4g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Essential Everyday - 1% Low Fat Cottage Cheese, 1/2 cup (115g) 90 5g 2g 13g 10mg 450mg 4g 0g
Lunch
Butter - Unsalted, 1 tbsp 102 0g 12g 0g 31mg 2mg 0g 0g
Oil - Vegetable, canola, 1 tbsp 124 0g 14g 0g 0mg 0mg 0g 0g
Tomatoes - Green, raw, 5 slice or wedge 23 5g 0g 1g 0mg 13mg 4g 1g
Beef - Short Ribs, 6 oz 330 0g 23g 39g 119mg 74mg 0g 0g
Potatoes - White, flesh and skin, raw, 200 g 140 31g 0g 3g 0mg 12mg 2g 5g
Wheat flour - White, all-purpose, enriched, bleached, 0.2 cup 91 19g 0g 3g 0mg 1mg 0g 1g
Afternoon
Bryers - Butter Pecan Ice Cream, 1 cup 280 36g 12g 4g 20mg 200mg 24g 0g
TOTAL: 1,441 114g 74g 88g 235mg 985mg 39g 13g
Point?...those who are on a standard reduced-calorie of 1200/1300 cal diet and keep eating sugary treats and starchy foods are surely not meeting the 5-a-day recommendation...
I think it was that while you seem to indicate (though don't specifically say) that you were able to restrict calories, eat sugary treats and eat plenty of veggies, the reviewed instances in which you did eat sugary treats you did not quite meet the standard veggie servings.
That suggests there's a connection, and there's not. Veggies are low cal, so one is not likely to limit veg to make room for sugar. My typical plan is to include a sugary treat when I have left over calories at the end of the day. I don't cut out veg to create a greater deficit -- I tend to eat more veg to have a more filling day and mostly based on what happens to be available. Low veg days are more likely just bad planning. (In that case, too few meals -- I have to eat 3 to get in my preferred veg amount when eating meat.)
Also, coming from someone who brags about eating few veg I think it's funny you are criticizing that day.0 -
lithezebra wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »It's hard to find the WHO 5-a-day recommendations. According to Wikipedia, the WHO recommendation is a minimum of 400 grams of vegetables a day, excluding potatoes and other starchy tubers. And then there is a recommendation from a study out of University College, London, to double that recommendation, to 10-a-day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_A_Day
Oh, and here's the American iteration of 5-a-day, "More Matters," which adjusts the recommendations to anywhere from 2 to 6.5 cups of veggies/fruits a day, dependent on your caloric needs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruits_&_Veggies_–_More_Matters
http://www.fruitsandveggiesmorematters.org/
I also cannot find the original resolution, but here is an excerpt of the current recommendations:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs394/en/
So people keep referring to WHO recommendations, but the whole issue revolves around blatently ignoring the first recommendation:A healthy diet contains:- Fruits, vegetables, legumes (e.g. lentils, beans), nuts and whole grains (e.g. unprocessed maize, millet, oats, wheat, brown rice).
- At least 400 g (5 portions) of fruits and vegetables a day (2). Potatoes, sweet potatoes, cassava and other starchy roots are not classified as fruits or vegetables.
- Less than 10% of total energy intake from free sugars (2, 5) which is equivalent to 50 g (or around 12 level teaspoons) for a person of healthy body weight consuming approximately 2000 calories per day, but ideally less than 5% of total energy intake for additional health benefits (5). Most free sugars are added to foods or drinks by the manufacturer, cook or consumer, and can also be found in sugars naturally present in honey, syrups, fruit juices and fruit juice concentrates.
- Less than 30% of total energy intake from fats (1, 2, 3). Unsaturated fats (e.g. found in fish, avocado, nuts, sunflower, canola and olive oils) are preferable to saturated fats (e.g. found in fatty meat, butter, palm and coconut oil, cream, cheese, ghee and lard) (3). Industrial trans fats (found in processed food, fast food, snack food, fried food, frozen pizza, pies, cookies, margarines and spreads) are not part of a healthy diet.
- Less than 5 g of salt (equivalent to approximately 1 teaspoon) per day (6) and use iodized salt.
Guidelines that are very high in carbs don't work well for a lot of people suffering from blood sugar disorders. Many people also get blood lipid improvements with a lower carb diet. This thread is about eating vegetables on a low carb diet, not about eating them on a high carb diet.
Actually, the recommendation to limit saturated fats promotes blood sugar control.
Not to mention that many people have achieved blood sugar control through diet and exercise without having to go low carb.
Fat is much better for blood sugar control than carbs because it digests and absorbs into the bloodstream much more slowly, which means that it doesn't cause the spikes and drops in blood sugar that carbs cause. It keeps you more stable. It could very well be true that people have achieved blood sugar control without having to go "low carb", but telling people to cut animal fat is the old fashioned advice that we're now learning is wrong. We're even rethinking things like heart disease, since it's been shown the high blood sugar levels increase inflammation and damage the heart and arteries. Even the American Heart Association is now recommending that people limit their intake of sugar. Animal fat is a natural source of food, found in nature, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it.
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2015/03/how-carbohydrates-can-affect-your-heart-health/
0 -
The standard advice from nutrition experts is still to cut down on animal fat, despite the desire by the MFP "carnivores" to pretend otherwise.
http://bigthink.com/videos/david-katz-on-what-we-know-about-diet
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/science-compared-every-diet-and-the-winner-is-real-food/284595/
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-eating-plate/0
This discussion has been closed.
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