Obesity Journal study: It's not just CICO
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Hell big pharma is the reason why insulin shots exist.
NOPE, the man who won the Nobel for isolating insulin, Dr. Banting, gave his patent away for free because he believed this life-saving drug should be available to everyone who needed it. Big Pharma is the reason new (but not necessarily more effective) versions of insulin are constantly created when patents run out so that they can keep the prices as high as possible.
Insulin is an amazing drug for type 1 diabetics. It's the reason two of my immediate family members are still alive today. Insulin, however, is a horrible treatment for type 2 diabetics, and does nothing to cure the root cause of their disease, but instead exacerbates it.
Lantus was #6 in the top 10 most profitable drugs in 2014, grossing 7.28 billion. http://qz.com/349929/best-selling-drugs-in-the-world/
The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?
That nutrition advice is confusing garbage for good reason.
@psulemon1 -
FunkyTobias wrote: »
Ah, ok. "a small subset of people struggle with excessive insulin production," and meanwhile half the US is either diabetic or prediabetic.
"you can get fat even with lots of foods that dont drive insulin" Of course you can! It's just not as easy, quick, or enjoyable. Most people are not getting fat and IR because they are overeating whole foods.
Well, actually, it's not half. Potentially, about 1 out of 3 have diabetes. Of which, 9.3% are confirmed, and the rest are undiagnosed, which means it's estimated based on some population survey. Also, this takes into consideration that the US reduced the standard for what they consider prediabetic.
http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/2014statisticsreport.html
You are also failing to recognize that you can have a low to moderate fat diet with all whole foods, just like you can have a low carb diet or even keto full of ultra processed foods. Meaning, when dieting or trying to live a healthy life, food quality is important.
No, you are pigeonholing me--just like you did by bringing in Taubes and the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis. Any diet with all whole foods is going to have protective and satiating elements, such as fiber, which will mitigate the insulin response of those foods. Also, I never said insulin was the ONLY hormone, just the most prevailing one.
And excuse me, but even 1 in 3 does not sound like a "small subset."
Well when 27.8% of that 1/3 is undiagnosed (essentially 3x the confirmed number) you would need to know what are their assumptions. Last I recall, it was a survey of 100 people, but I could be a bit off.
And I am not pigeonholing. You are presenting observable data to support the claim that it violates CICO. There is no supporting scientific data outside of, "if you inject insulin into a person who doesn't have an issue, that it will cause weight gain". That doesn't support his hypothesis. And it fails just as much as Taubes's hypothesis.
And as an aside, non natural body builders will inject insulin to prolong MPS and stimulate muscle growth.
<-- So not too surprised that overloading a person with insulin is going to cause weight gain. But that doesn't mean it's conclusive to support that insulin causes weight gain.
@psulemon
From one of the biggest manufacturers of insulin, Novo Nordisk. Even they don't deny what every clinician already knows: Insulin causes weight gain. Check out their super helpful tips:
Does Insulin Cause Weight Gain?
People who start insulin often put on weight,2 but the amount of weight gain differs from person to person.3 Some people don't put on any weight at all.
Weight Gain and Insulin
When you don't have enough insulin, extra blood sugar is removed from your body through your urine. Taking insulin helps your body to naturally store the extra sugar as fat, so you might put on weight even if you are eating the same amount of food as you did before. This is why it's important to stay active.
Another reason some people gain weight is that they snack more to avoid low blood sugar levels.
Avoiding Weight Gain with Insulin
Hear are some tips for minimizing weight gain:
Eat healthy
Be active
Monitor your weight and adjust your eating and exercise
Monitor your blood sugar so that you don't have to snack
Never skip an injection. Skipping your insulin won't help you lose weight, and it could cause you to have high blood glucose levels. And, don't try to adjust the dose of insulin on your own. Always talk to your diabetes care team if you have any concerns about your insulin does.
http://www.novonordisk.com/patients/diabetes-care/managing-diabetes/medication/insulins/advance_insulin_understanding.html
Thank you, Novo Nordisk, for these "advanced insulin understandings." [I did not fix their typos].
Believes the insulin company when it supports her viewsI also can't help but share all their detailed nutrition advice. (It's just your basic low fat, calorie-restricted, CICO-based approach, which has been tried-and-proven-false for decades.) Oh! And they also say make sure you space your eating throughout the day (so you can keep stimulating your insulin response) and don't skip meals (i.e., intermittent fasting is a horrible idea).
Healthy tips
Healthy eating isn't that tough. It's all about eating balanced portions and a wide variety. You don't have to change everything at once. Just keep making small changes over time.
Eat a wide variety of healthy foods
Balance the number of calories you eat with your activity level
Choose foods rich in whole grains, vegetables, fruits and fat-free/low-fat milk products
Eat lean meats (such as poultry and fish) and beans for protein
Limit your intake of saturated fats, trans fats and cholesterol
Limit your intake of salt
Cut down on added sugars - that includes regular soft drinks which are high in calories
Keep to sensible amounts of alcohol
Have a proper breakfast every morning to stimulate your metabolism
Space your eating throughout the day
Don't skip meals
Try picking a few small changes that are important to you. Pick ones you feel confident that you can achieve and focus on those.
As you make these changes a part of the normal way you eat, you'll find that you're ready to take on something new.
Don't expect to be perfect - it's nearly impossible to eat right all of the time. It's okay to have a treat every now and then as long you stay motivated and on track most of the time.
http://www.novonordisk.com/patients/diabetes-care/managing-diabetes/diet/healthyTips.html
But I'm sure we can trust nutrition advice from an insulin company--no conflicts of interest there, right? I do commend them for saying avoid added sugars, but the reason behind it is simply because they are "empty calories." Smh. And lumping trans fats with saturated fats? A very smooth move there.
Bur when the company conflicts with her dogma?
Can you say cognitive dissonance?
@FunkyTobias
I think you missed my sarcasm in calling them "super helpful" tips--by which I meant "not helpful in the least." Both sections from the site are mostly BS, IMO.0 -
So, what of the things are BS IYO? Eating amounts of food according to your activity level?
A varied diet of healthy foods?
Lots of vegetables and fruit?
Limiting trans fats and sat fats?
Not too much salt?
Reducing added sugars?
Sensible amounts of alcohol?
Making sustainable changes?
Man, just look at all that crap.12 -
The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?
LOL No. Big pharma likes non-compliant patients.0 -
NotSoPerfectPam wrote: »New York Times story details that a study of Biggest Loser contestants found they regained much of the weight they lost and ruined their metabolism -- all had metabolisms that burned much less than a person their weight should have been burning.
So, OK, it is CICO, but if you're overweight and trying to lose weight, it may mean that your calories in is a lot lower than your calculated BMR or TDEE. So the question is, how do we get our BMR really tested....
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html
This study debunks the popular myth that metabolism isn't slowed by dieting.
For people who ate an aggressively low number of calories while doing an aggressively high amount of exercise for an extended period of time, yes. Not the conditions the average person diets under.
My body fights to put back weight and I have never eaten aggressively lower than 1200 calories while exercising for an extended time. I'm happy you don't experience this. I struggle to lose pounds and my body seriously wants to put them back as soon as I go back to maintenance mode. It is a battle! Now I actively diet just to stay at maintenance weight, so I feel like I am always dieting. My Body Used To Work INTUITUVELY to maintain. Now I must force it to maintain at my new and lower weight.1 -
The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?
LOL No. Big pharma likes non-compliant patients.
You better believe it! XD0 -
stevencloser wrote: »So, what of the things are BS IYO? Eating amounts of food according to your activity level?
A varied diet of healthy foods?
Lots of vegetables and fruit?
Limiting trans fats and sat fats?
Not too much salt?
Reducing added sugars?
Sensible amounts of alcohol?
Making sustainable changes?
Man, just look at all that crap.
It's funny how you left out certian items that even you know are indefensible garbage.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »So, what of the things are BS IYO? Eating amounts of food according to your activity level?
A varied diet of healthy foods?
Lots of vegetables and fruit?
Limiting trans fats and sat fats?
Not too much salt?
Reducing added sugars?
Sensible amounts of alcohol?
Making sustainable changes?
Man, just look at all that crap.
It's funny how you left out certian items that even you know are indefensible garbage.
Yeah, because having breakfast, spacing meals throughout the day, and not skipping meals is what causes obesity and diabetes.7 -
The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?
LOL No. Big pharma likes non-compliant patients.
You better believe it! XD
My point is that you're laying a whole lotta s.h.i.t. at the feet of "big pharma," but as a nurse, I can tell you that so many people can't lay off the damn ice cream and chips and incorporate a friggin' salad every so often to drop some tonnage and reverse or at least diminish some of their health problems. You are outside your mind if you think those companies are fostering disease. They just happen to be profiting because fat bas.tards can't shut their pie holes.
Non-compliance = Job security.6 -
The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?
LOL No. Big pharma likes non-compliant patients.
You better believe it! XD
My point is that you're laying a whole lotta s.h.i.t. at the feet of "big pharma," but as a nurse, I can tell you that so many people can't lay off the damn ice cream and chips and incorporate a friggin' salad every so often to drop some tonnage and reverse or at least diminish some of their health problems. You are outside your mind if you think those companies are fostering disease. They just happen to be profiting because fat bas.tards can't shut their pie holes.
Job security.
Yup, I'm a nurse too. I see you've bought into the same lie as many other healthcare professionals: blame the patient.
I'm past that now, but I understand. I used to have the same damning perspective.
EDIT: in case anyone was wondering, this person poignantly expresses exactly how most doctors and nurses judge you for being sick and obese.4 -
Ah, ok. "a small subset of people struggle with excessive insulin production," and meanwhile half the US is either diabetic or prediabetic.
"you can get fat even with lots of foods that dont drive insulin" Of course you can! It's just not as easy, quick, or enjoyable. Most people are not getting fat and IR because they are overeating whole foods.
Well, actually, it's not half. Potentially, about 1 out of 3 have diabetes. Of which, 9.3% are confirmed, and the rest are undiagnosed, which means it's estimated based on some population survey. Also, this takes into consideration that the US reduced the standard for what they consider prediabetic.
http://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/2014statisticsreport.html
You are also failing to recognize that you can have a low to moderate fat diet with all whole foods, just like you can have a low carb diet or even keto full of ultra processed foods. Meaning, when dieting or trying to live a healthy life, food quality is important.
No, you are pigeonholing me--just like you did by bringing in Taubes and the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis. Any diet with all whole foods is going to have protective and satiating elements, such as fiber, which will mitigate the insulin response of those foods. Also, I never said insulin was the ONLY hormone, just the most prevailing one.
And excuse me, but even 1 in 3 does not sound like a "small subset."
Once you consider NAFLD, PCOS and Alzheimer's, along with people who have prediabetes and T2D, whether they realize it or not, those with IR is closer to 50%.What I don't understand is why people quibble with other people who are successfully making adaptations in their diets that benefit them and do no harm?
There are lots of people who engage in low carb dieting to lose weight, but unsuccessful maintain it because they couldn't adapt to it long term.
I'm one of those trainers that don't believe in dieting, doesn't believe in "clean eating", and directly deal with people on an everyday basis of implementing weight loss and fitness. In the beginning, I was taught the "clean eating" and low carb, regimens to advise to my clients. Did they lose weight? Sure. But a few months later, I'd see them again with weight regained. So could that be harm? Psychologically I guess it could be. Getting down to a certain weight, then regaining could easily give the person a sense of failure and conceding that it's too hard to stay lean, so why even bother.
There are some ways that work better for others, but the reality is CICO is the gist of weight loss/gain/maintenance regardless of how it's approached.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
As you know, the bolded is true of all diets. It has to be maintainable.
I eat LCHF. The first 4-5 months I lost weight while doing it. The last 7-8 months I have maintained while doing it. I don't consider it a "diet" but just the way I eat for improved health.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Galadrial60 wrote: »Oh honey...wrong forum. People who never had metabolism issues DON'T BELIEVE it. I read the same article you did. I found it fascinating. I also work with special needs adults in group home settings. We give our clients low fat, healthy balanced meals. They have no access to food unless we serve it. Yet 6 adults are all over the charts in terms of weight. They are served identical portions...but the ones who are inclined to thin tend to stay that way...and the ones who go to heavy don't lose any weight. They also have about the same amount of exercise in a day. You can say it isn't scientific...but it's hard to ignore a year of observation. Metabolism is real.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
2 -
The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?
LOL No. Big pharma likes non-compliant patients.
You better believe it! XD
My point is that you're laying a whole lotta s.h.i.t. at the feet of "big pharma," but as a nurse, I can tell you that so many people can't lay off the damn ice cream and chips and incorporate a friggin' salad every so often to drop some tonnage and reverse or at least diminish some of their health problems. You are outside your mind if you think those companies are fostering disease. They just happen to be profiting because fat bas.tards can't shut their pie holes.
Job security.
Yup, I'm a nurse too. I see you've bought into the same lie as many other healthcare professionals: blame the patient.
I'm past that now, but I understand. I used to have the same damning perspective.
EDIT: in case anyone was wondering, this person poignantly expresses exactly how most doctors and nurses judge you for being sick and obese.
I have a niece who has a thyroid disease. She's obese. We don't blame her for it, due to her condition, but she can make better choices when she eats. And I'll be the first to say that it is tough, especially when your family has parties every weekend and food is a big part of family get togethers.
People that are obese, can lose weight, but it take much more effort and discipline due to the complications of physical movement and likely hormonal issues. It's not impossible or there wouldn't be any success stories.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
4 -
stevencloser wrote: »So, what of the things are BS IYO? Eating amounts of food according to your activity level?
A varied diet of healthy foods?
Lots of vegetables and fruit?
Limiting trans fats and sat fats?
Not too much salt?
Reducing added sugars?
Sensible amounts of alcohol?
Making sustainable changes?
Man, just look at all that crap.
It's funny how you left out certian items that even you know are indefensible garbage.
The only thing wrong is that breakfast stimulates the metabolism.
The things I listed are unquestionably true, the other things I left out are a matter of preference.
So again, since you said it's mostly BS. What is BS of all those things? Because there's literally just 1 thing in the list that is incorrect.
In before "eat all the saturated fat your body can hold because it's gud for you"2 -
It truly terrifies me that there are medical professionals out there that just dismiss knowledge that we have to our best current abilities because of YouTube.
I am sad to see the people coming in here from time to time interpreting this study the way that I worried they would - that it's not even worth it to lose weight because the Biggest Loser contestants gained it back and harmed their bodies in the process.12 -
The diabetes epidemic is nothing but good news to the only 3 companies in the US that produce insulin: Eli Lilly, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk. With that kind of money on the line, do you think they would be careless enough to share nutrition advice that actually enabled people to prevent their potential or stop their current use of insulin?
LOL No. Big pharma likes non-compliant patients.
You better believe it! XD
My point is that you're laying a whole lotta s.h.i.t. at the feet of "big pharma," but as a nurse, I can tell you that so many people can't lay off the damn ice cream and chips and incorporate a friggin' salad every so often to drop some tonnage and reverse or at least diminish some of their health problems. You are outside your mind if you think those companies are fostering disease. They just happen to be profiting because fat bas.tards can't shut their pie holes.
Job security.
Yup, I'm a nurse too. I see you've bought into the same lie as many other healthcare professionals: blame the patient.
I'm past that now, but I understand. I used to have the same damning perspective.
EDIT: in case anyone was wondering, this person poignantly expresses exactly how most doctors and nurses judge you for being sick and obese.
Right. Because it's totally Big Pharma's fault that I'm sick and obese*. Had nothing to do with my own lack of personal responsibility to care for myself throughout the years.
I wonder who an obese doctor would blame for his obesity?
*I'm not, but when I was fat I knew exactly who to blame.5 -
Obesity isn't a disease though. It's directly a calorie in/out issue. It may be a condition due to the health issue. Granted hormonal issues really can complicate it.
I have a niece who has a thyroid disease. She's obese. We don't blame her for it, due to her condition, but she can make better choices when she eats. And I'll be the first to say that it is tough, especially when your family has parties every weekend and food is a big part of family get togethers.
People that are obese, can lose weight, but it take much more effort and discipline due to the complications of physical movement and likely hormonal issues. It's not impossible or there wouldn't be any success stories.
Just curious - does this mean you disagree with the American Medical Association who has defined obesity as a disease since 2013?
Karen
1 -
stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »So, what of the things are BS IYO? Eating amounts of food according to your activity level?
A varied diet of healthy foods?
Lots of vegetables and fruit?
Limiting trans fats and sat fats?
Not too much salt?
Reducing added sugars?
Sensible amounts of alcohol?
Making sustainable changes?
Man, just look at all that crap.
It's funny how you left out certian items that even you know are indefensible garbage.
The only thing wrong is that breakfast stimulates the metabolism.
The things I listed are unquestionably true, the other things I left out are a matter of preference.
So again, since you said it's mostly BS. What is BS of all those things? Because there's literally just 1 thing in the list that is incorrect.
In before "eat all the saturated fat your body can hold because it's gud for you"
I don't even know where to start with that horrible advice. You already claim it's "unquestionably true," but hopefully my response can help someone else.
I feel I've thoroughly explained how excess insulin promotes both diabetes and obesity. It's a direct causal effect. Give people insulin: they get hungry, they gain weight, they develop insulin resistance. Completely take away insulin (as in the case of type 1 diabetes, for example): you get extreme weight loss.
If the body responded to all foods exactly the same, balancing calories with activity level would be all you need to know for weight loss--yet, that diet seems to fail time and time again (as evidenced by the origin of this thread). However, the body doesn't respond the same to all foods. Different foods promote different hormonal responses. Additionally, some foods are more nutrient dense and satiating, while other are not.
There is nothing in whole grains, for example, that you can't get from other foods with a whole lot less carbohydrate and calorie density. Not to mention, the vast majority of "whole grains" available on the market are nothing more than pulverized flour, which has separated the fiber from the starch, negating its benefit, causing large spikes in both blood glucose and insulin.
If people are trying to prevent or treat type 2 diabetes, the goal is to lower insulin levels. A low fat diet is simply a terrible idea. Fats stimulate very little insulin response, and they are satiating. They are an excellent source of calories for healing insulin resistance and promoting weight loss. Fats from nature are completely benign, and there are mountains of evidence available to question and disprove the tired diet-heart hypothesis (dietary cholesterol causes heart disease). Take the Framingham Study, for example. Once they went back and looked at the data, separating man-made fats from natural fats: margarine was linked to heart disease, while butter was linked to heart health. Clearly made-made fats with excess omega 6s and trans fats are toxic. The big picture here is that not all foods are created equal, and when you start looking at the details, foods in their natural state do the best job of keeping the heart healthy and keeping insulin levels normal.
Additionally, grazing throughout the day is another terrible idea. You're just continuously spiking insulin levels, protecting that stored fat from being used for energy. Avoiding snacking, skipping meals, and intermittent fasting are extremely powerful techniques for healing insulin resistance, allowing insulin levels to drop, and letting the body shift toward using stored glycogen and fat for energy.
The advice sucks, IMO. But what really sucks is how many people are struggling, hungry all the time, eating processed garbage that they think is "healthy," white-knuckling their way to weight loss, killing their metabolisms, and being blamed by everyone around them (including the healthcare professionals) for their failure.
Here's a literature review for you from Diabesity on effective treatments for hyperinsulinemia and the related metabolic diseases: http://diabesity.ejournals.ca/index.php/diabesity/article/viewFile/21/65
It comes down to exercise, carbohydrate restriction, and fasting. There ya go!4 -
While I do know some people who seemingly did/do well on a low fat diet, my experience was dramatic. I did lose weight on low fat. But I also lost hair, suffered dry skin, constipation, and although I didn't realize it, my brain was foggy. When I stalled out on a low fat Weight Watchers approach, I decided what the heck this isn't working and went to Atkins. All of a sudden I could think again, it was like waking up from a "stupid" dream and realizing I was a much smarter cookie than I remembered being. I got Atkins' flu, though, and that was pretty unacceptable. Being the stubborn person I am, I stuck with it. Now I realize that for me, something inbetween (imagine that) is optimal. I eat about 60 net carbs a day, adequate protein, 1200-1300 calories and I am feeling terrific. I eat 3 meals a day or 2 meals and one snackmeal. This might not work for everyone, but I am energetic, not sleepy after meals, not achey, not stupid. I sort of naturally do a 16/8 pattern. And I would agree that past attempts have definitely involved some white knuckling, teeth gritting, breath holding days while this is the opposite. I have found what works for me.
Karen3 -
KetoneKaren wrote: »While I do know some people who seemingly did well on a low fat diet, my experience was dramatic. I did lose weight on low fat. But I also lost hair, suffered dry skin, constipation, and although I didn't realize it, my brain was foggy. When I stalled out on a low fat Weight Watchers approach, I decided what the heck this isn't working and went to Atkins. All of a sudden I could think again, it was like waking up from a "stupid" dream and realizing I was a much smarter cookie than I remembered being. I got Atkins' flu, though, and that was pretty unacceptable. Being the stubborn person I am, I stuck with it. Now I realize that for me, something inbetween (imagine that) is optimal. I eat about 60 net carbs a day, adequate protein, 1200-1300 calories and I am feeling terrific. I eat 3 meals a day or 2 meals and one snackmeal. This might not work for everyone, but I am energetic, not sleepy after meals, not achey, not stupid. I sort of naturally do a 16/8 pattern. And I would agree that past attempts have definitely involved some white knuckling, teeth gritting, breath holding days while this is the opposite. I have found what works for me.
Karen
The funny thing is, all the people who follow LCHF always talk about low fat diets, but only a very small subset of members on this board actually follow a low fat diet, and they are typically vegan/vegetarian. Most of us follow moderator fat diets (I personally get 80-100g). And your experiences with low fat would be mine with low carb. So to each their own I say.7
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