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"Addiction" versus "Dependence"
Replies
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goldthistime wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
Yeah but it's the end of the MFP forum world to say someone has a harder time than another person. Bad bad bad!
I think everyone has their own challenges. Some have it easier than others. With the differences in bodies (hormone levels as an example), it is harder and easier for individuals. Uhoh, another end of the world statements.
Lol at "bad bad bad". Guess I should have started with "all things being equal". Certainly I agree that there are other challenges out there that are as bad or worse. I agree on the hormonal stuff, and meds that have been shown to cause weight gain comes to mind, depression and high stress levels etc.
What gets me with the addiction posts specifically, is the posters often assume that being tempted or wanting to eat more than you should = addiction, and other posters who don't claim addiction don't experience this. So why would we get fat? Of course we have temptation and all the rest and messed up eating behaviors often. I just don't think that's addiction or that someone who claims to be "addicted" has it harder than everyone else.
I think focusing on the actual specifics (vs. claiming "oh, can't help it, once I have sugar I lose it, because addict" -- BigSugar made me fat) tends to be extremely illuminating and helpful, as it focuses in on why you are actually overeating, when, in what context, so on. Not eating certain trigger foods (even all aggressively sweet things) can certainly be a part of the solution, depending on context. None of that has to do with addiction, again, however.
I'm thrilled that this discussion has moved out of the main forums where it used to pop up all the time.
Agreed, although I will point out AGAIN that for ages I've posted "I don't think addiction is the right word, but..." and then three paragraphs of what I think is helpful advice and my experience with being out of control with food, so on, and while sometimes the OP responds (I don't care if the OP takes my advice or not, usually it's worded as "these might help" not "do this" but an acknowledgement would be nice) often there is none. MORE often someone new jumps in, ignores the substance of the post and offers NOTHING helpful and insists that sugar is more addictive than heroin, it's been proven, the only choice is to cut out all sugar and "processed foods" or some such. In that IMO that's false information (and not responsive to the OP or helpful), I am forced to respond. Now I can tell that person he or she is off topic and link to a thread here.
But, that person is still the one trying to drag the thread off topic, not me in my first response.I hope that we, as a community can stick to helpful stuff, like suggesting they avoid aggressively sweet trigger foods, as your example, rather than taking the time to educate them in their misuse of the word "addict" as had been happening for most of the three years I've been here.
I have always done this, and me remarking -- as I feel obligated to by conscience -- that I don't think addiction is really the right word (or more often, the word I would use) does not change that.5 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
Yeah but it's the end of the MFP forum world to say someone has a harder time than another person. Bad bad bad!
I think everyone has their own challenges. Some have it easier than others. With the differences in bodies (hormone levels as an example), it is harder and easier for individuals. Uhoh, another end of the world statements.
Lol at "bad bad bad". Guess I should have started with "all things being equal". Certainly I agree that there are other challenges out there that are as bad or worse. I agree on the hormonal stuff, and meds that have been shown to cause weight gain comes to mind, depression and high stress levels etc.
What gets me with the addiction posts specifically, is the posters often assume that being tempted or wanting to eat more than you should = addiction, and other posters who don't claim addiction don't experience this. So why would we get fat? Of course we have temptation and all the rest and messed up eating behaviors often. I just don't think that's addiction or that someone who claims to be "addicted" has it harder than everyone else.
I think focusing on the actual specifics (vs. claiming "oh, can't help it, once I have sugar I lose it, because addict" -- BigSugar made me fat) tends to be extremely illuminating and helpful, as it focuses in on why you are actually overeating, when, in what context, so on. Not eating certain trigger foods (even all aggressively sweet things) can certainly be a part of the solution, depending on context. None of that has to do with addiction, again, however.
I don't think anyone is saying all overweight people are food addicts.
It seems to me that what you are saying -- and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to understand -- is that some people who self identify as addicts have it harder than the rest of us, who don't self identify as addicts. I'd like to know what makes you so sure that it's harder for you just because you use that term for stuff that many of the rest of us also experience, but simply think is quite different from addiction, when the term is correctly used.
I've never chosen to self-identify as an alcoholic, although by every definition I've ever read I clearly met enough criteria to do so. I find the whole, "Hi, I'm Kshama and I'm and alcoholic" to be disempowering. But when someone posts a thread saying they are a sugar addict, I'm not going to get into all that, but rather offer them help.
(This is not to say you don't offer help despite your feeling about their label - you certainly do.)1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
Yeah but it's the end of the MFP forum world to say someone has a harder time than another person. Bad bad bad!
I think everyone has their own challenges. Some have it easier than others. With the differences in bodies (hormone levels as an example), it is harder and easier for individuals. Uhoh, another end of the world statements.
Lol at "bad bad bad". Guess I should have started with "all things being equal". Certainly I agree that there are other challenges out there that are as bad or worse. I agree on the hormonal stuff, and meds that have been shown to cause weight gain comes to mind, depression and high stress levels etc.
What gets me with the addiction posts specifically, is the posters often assume that being tempted or wanting to eat more than you should = addiction, and other posters who don't claim addiction don't experience this. So why would we get fat? Of course we have temptation and all the rest and messed up eating behaviors often. I just don't think that's addiction or that someone who claims to be "addicted" has it harder than everyone else.
I think focusing on the actual specifics (vs. claiming "oh, can't help it, once I have sugar I lose it, because addict" -- BigSugar made me fat) tends to be extremely illuminating and helpful, as it focuses in on why you are actually overeating, when, in what context, so on. Not eating certain trigger foods (even all aggressively sweet things) can certainly be a part of the solution, depending on context. None of that has to do with addiction, again, however.
I don't think anyone is saying all overweight people are food addicts.
It seems to me that what you are saying -- and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to understand -- is that some people who self identify as addicts have it harder than the rest of us, who don't self identify as addicts. I'd like to know what makes you so sure that it's harder for you just because you use that term for stuff that many of the rest of us also experience, but simply think is quite different from addiction, when the term is correctly used.
I think it's a fine line. Consider - what's the difference between and alcoholic and a heavy drinker? Not every heavy drinker qualifies as an alcoholic under current definitions (only about 10% do). That doesn't mean they don't have struggles or that their alcohol use isn't problematic. They just aren't "alcoholics".
I guess my point is - it's not clear cut. If someone says they feel "addicted" to sugar/fast food/whatever, I'm inclined to give that person the benefit of the doubt and assume that they, if nothing else, are really struggling and aren't looking to argue the semantics of whether or not what they are dealing with is truly "addiction" or not (and they certainly aren't looking to get into a contest in He!!, attempting oneupsmanship or trying to minimize the struggles of others). They need help, strategies for dealing with problem foods or situations. They need encouragement, possibly professional counseling. They aren't trying to minimize anyone else's struggles or successes. They are seeking help.
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tlflag1620 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
I don't. For me a craving is relatively easy to deal with because it's clear and can either be fought or dealt with. If I crave a food I figure out how to satisfy the craving in a healthier way, have a little, or fight it/put it off. What has always been harder for me are other things -- like the mind saying "oh, it doesn't matter" or "I'll do this tonight and then tomorrow will be different." Similarly, with aggressive cravings you can figure out how to satisfy them in some way, but there's also the constant feeling of wanting to eat or the habitual response of wanting to eat with certain triggers (emotional eating).
You can figure out how to deal with this other stuff too, and I have been successfully (and not, from time to time) working on it, but I disagree that it's inherently easier than cravings or that someone who tends to prefer savory foods (me, although I like plenty of sweet things) is somehow more responsible for their weight issues than someone who is a sugar fiend.
NOT saying my stuff is harder, of course, but this idea that some people have a much harder time than others (just because they say they do) is IMO a way of making an excuse.
I think some people do have a harder time -- I think having eating disorder type thinking or long-term messed up ideas about food (vs. logical thinking) or being really wrapped up in the idea that being fat/overeating makes you a failure so you end up with a cycle of shame and depression and the like ALL make it harder. (But that doesn't mean you have a harder time in general than others -- I find it really offputting when people do the "poor me, everyone else has it so easy" stuff.) But usually that has exactly nothing to do with who is claiming addiction and who is not. I've been motivated to reach out to some posters (and seen others I wanted to reach out to but didn't know how to help) who I felt like were really struggling and had a harder time than others (often people who were morbidly obese) and I have a friend in RL in that situation who I wish I knew how to help, but these aren't generally the people I've seen claiming "addiction" (and I don't think that's the issue--it's rarely just sugar, or just some specific food, after all, but maladaptive eating behaviors).
I also think not having experience with eating healthfully at all (the people who seem to never eat vegetables, not to have an idea of what a balanced meal is, who don't cook ever, or ask what to eat if they cut down on sugar, as if dinner normally involved lots of added sugar) can certainly make things harder, but again that's not about addiction. It's about education and developing your palate.
The bolded part reminds me of the "contests in He!!" that my husband I and used to have early on in our marriage (when we were both younger and less mature). I'm a sahm, my husband commutes for work. He gets up earlier than I do, but often my sleep is broken because I'm the one who attends to the children if they wake at night. We used to spend considerable time arguing over 'who is most tired' lol. I refer to it as a "contest in He!!" because whoever "wins" ultimately loses (you're the most tired? congratulations, you lose). Once we stopped seeing it as some sort of competition, we were able to help each other and work together to maximize everyone's sleep.
Acknowledging that some people may have a harder time managing weight than others is not making excuses (it's only an excuse if they use it as a reason to stop trying altogether).
But that's what they often seem to be doing. (I'm also thinking of the posts that are basically "it's not fair, my friends eat worse than me" or "it's not fair, I don't eat very much"). That strikes me as denial (amusingly, given the topic of the thread). I just figure that someone claiming that isn't ready and usually don't engage.
More to the point, however, you seem to be making assumptions that certain specific people have it harder, and simply because they claim addiction. What I see is the people using the term addiction go on to describe the same sorts of things that many or most of us deal with, and just don't yet have the tools or strategies to deal (I usually try to help with this). The purpose of the term addiction seems to be to take something that's really quite typical and human (bad habits re eating behaviors aggravated by how available food is and often a lack of organization or logical thought about food) and classify it as a special disorder that only a few people have, which leads them to think that what they are dealing with is not normal or what many of us successfully have dealt with, but some sort of extra problem that makes things different or harder for them. I don't think that's helpful. When I stopped thinking "why is this happening to me" about food and realized how much it was the result of my choices is when I was able to lose weight. Not always -- I've regained, struggled with stuff (including depression), etc. I know it's not always easy. But thinking that there's something wrong with you if it's not easy or you are tempted or struggle or act contrary to your intentions (all part of the human condition, really), is what seems to me to be a huge mistake. You aren't tempted because you have been made addicted by BigSugar. You are tempted because you are a normal human being.If you are finding it off putting that others deal with issues you apparently don't deal with, that's a reflection on you.
This is not what I've said at all, and I don't believe you could have gotten this from an honest reading of my posts.2 -
kshama2001 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
Yeah but it's the end of the MFP forum world to say someone has a harder time than another person. Bad bad bad!
I think everyone has their own challenges. Some have it easier than others. With the differences in bodies (hormone levels as an example), it is harder and easier for individuals. Uhoh, another end of the world statements.
Lol at "bad bad bad". Guess I should have started with "all things being equal". Certainly I agree that there are other challenges out there that are as bad or worse. I agree on the hormonal stuff, and meds that have been shown to cause weight gain comes to mind, depression and high stress levels etc.
What gets me with the addiction posts specifically, is the posters often assume that being tempted or wanting to eat more than you should = addiction, and other posters who don't claim addiction don't experience this. So why would we get fat? Of course we have temptation and all the rest and messed up eating behaviors often. I just don't think that's addiction or that someone who claims to be "addicted" has it harder than everyone else.
I think focusing on the actual specifics (vs. claiming "oh, can't help it, once I have sugar I lose it, because addict" -- BigSugar made me fat) tends to be extremely illuminating and helpful, as it focuses in on why you are actually overeating, when, in what context, so on. Not eating certain trigger foods (even all aggressively sweet things) can certainly be a part of the solution, depending on context. None of that has to do with addiction, again, however.
I don't think anyone is saying all overweight people are food addicts.
It seems to me that what you are saying -- and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to understand -- is that some people who self identify as addicts have it harder than the rest of us, who don't self identify as addicts. I'd like to know what makes you so sure that it's harder for you just because you use that term for stuff that many of the rest of us also experience, but simply think is quite different from addiction, when the term is correctly used.
I've never chosen to self-identify as an alcoholic, although by every definition I've ever read I clearly met enough criteria to do so. I find the whole, "Hi, I'm Kshama and I'm and alcoholic" to be disempowering. But when someone posts a thread saying they are a sugar addict, I'm not going to get into all that, but rather offer them help.
(This is not to say you don't offer help despite your feeling about their label - you certainly do.)
Thanks for acknowledging that. (The last sentence.)
I think the usual criteria for alcohol addiction could be met by the average college student (this is problem drinking), so it's clearly not sufficient. Those are typically scare straight things. But I agree it's not useful to get into all that, although I think it's an interesting topic.
I'm not saying that anyone who claims an addiction is saying things are harder for them, because to me that's contrary to the whole taking responsibility thing which acknowledging the addiction is part of. I'm saying that typically the specifics of what people who claim "sugar addiction" (or the like) are talking about isn't different than the norm -- it's habit and temptation and so on. Yet by choosing the label (and claiming it's harder to deal with than heroin addiction, which is something I keep seeing in those threads lately) they are saying that they think they have some special hardship that others who lose weight don't have. I think it's often a form of excuse making -- that others can lose weight doesn't mean they should or can.
The funny thing is I think the need to make the excuse is self imposed. I certainly don't think anyone needs to apologize (or explain) getting overweight and I acknowledge that LOTS of reasons make it hard to lose weight, even if I think addiction is extremely rarely part of it (again, I think there is a rare eating addiction that people can develop). Saying it's not an addiction means, to me, that there are strategies that will work in addressing the various out of control feelings.1 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
Yeah but it's the end of the MFP forum world to say someone has a harder time than another person. Bad bad bad!
I think everyone has their own challenges. Some have it easier than others. With the differences in bodies (hormone levels as an example), it is harder and easier for individuals. Uhoh, another end of the world statements.
Lol at "bad bad bad". Guess I should have started with "all things being equal". Certainly I agree that there are other challenges out there that are as bad or worse. I agree on the hormonal stuff, and meds that have been shown to cause weight gain comes to mind, depression and high stress levels etc.
What gets me with the addiction posts specifically, is the posters often assume that being tempted or wanting to eat more than you should = addiction, and other posters who don't claim addiction don't experience this. So why would we get fat? Of course we have temptation and all the rest and messed up eating behaviors often. I just don't think that's addiction or that someone who claims to be "addicted" has it harder than everyone else.
I think focusing on the actual specifics (vs. claiming "oh, can't help it, once I have sugar I lose it, because addict" -- BigSugar made me fat) tends to be extremely illuminating and helpful, as it focuses in on why you are actually overeating, when, in what context, so on. Not eating certain trigger foods (even all aggressively sweet things) can certainly be a part of the solution, depending on context. None of that has to do with addiction, again, however.
I don't think anyone is saying all overweight people are food addicts.
It seems to me that what you are saying -- and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to understand -- is that some people who self identify as addicts have it harder than the rest of us, who don't self identify as addicts. I'd like to know what makes you so sure that it's harder for you just because you use that term for stuff that many of the rest of us also experience, but simply think is quite different from addiction, when the term is correctly used.
I think it's a fine line. Consider - what's the difference between and alcoholic and a heavy drinker? Not every heavy drinker qualifies as an alcoholic under current definitions (only about 10% do). That doesn't mean they don't have struggles or that their alcohol use isn't problematic. They just aren't "alcoholics".
I guess my point is - it's not clear cut. If someone says they feel "addicted" to sugar/fast food/whatever, I'm inclined to give that person the benefit of the doubt and assume that they, if nothing else, are really struggling and aren't looking to argue the semantics of whether or not what they are dealing with is truly "addiction" or not (and they certainly aren't looking to get into a contest in He!!, attempting oneupsmanship or trying to minimize the struggles of others). They need help, strategies for dealing with problem foods or situations. They need encouragement, possibly professional counseling. They aren't trying to minimize anyone else's struggles or successes. They are seeking help.
And exactly who has refused to help them? Who has said the primary response should be "you are not an addict"?
Not me, so I am puzzled why you are saying this to me.
IMO, they AREN'T addicts, but sure, they are struggling and don't know what to do to deal with their stumbling blocks to weight loss. I always try to help with that. (I also think NOT calling it an addiction is part of what's helpful, but I don't actually push that. I simply CANNOT myself pretend to believe it is an addiction when to do so would be a lie.)0 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
Yeah but it's the end of the MFP forum world to say someone has a harder time than another person. Bad bad bad!
I think everyone has their own challenges. Some have it easier than others. With the differences in bodies (hormone levels as an example), it is harder and easier for individuals. Uhoh, another end of the world statements.
Lol at "bad bad bad". Guess I should have started with "all things being equal". Certainly I agree that there are other challenges out there that are as bad or worse. I agree on the hormonal stuff, and meds that have been shown to cause weight gain comes to mind, depression and high stress levels etc.
What gets me with the addiction posts specifically, is the posters often assume that being tempted or wanting to eat more than you should = addiction, and other posters who don't claim addiction don't experience this. So why would we get fat? Of course we have temptation and all the rest and messed up eating behaviors often. I just don't think that's addiction or that someone who claims to be "addicted" has it harder than everyone else.
I think focusing on the actual specifics (vs. claiming "oh, can't help it, once I have sugar I lose it, because addict" -- BigSugar made me fat) tends to be extremely illuminating and helpful, as it focuses in on why you are actually overeating, when, in what context, so on. Not eating certain trigger foods (even all aggressively sweet things) can certainly be a part of the solution, depending on context. None of that has to do with addiction, again, however.
I don't think anyone is saying all overweight people are food addicts.
It seems to me that what you are saying -- and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to understand -- is that some people who self identify as addicts have it harder than the rest of us, who don't self identify as addicts. I'd like to know what makes you so sure that it's harder for you just because you use that term for stuff that many of the rest of us also experience, but simply think is quite different from addiction, when the term is correctly used.
I think it's a fine line. Consider - what's the difference between and alcoholic and a heavy drinker? Not every heavy drinker qualifies as an alcoholic under current definitions (only about 10% do). That doesn't mean they don't have struggles or that their alcohol use isn't problematic. They just aren't "alcoholics".
I guess my point is - it's not clear cut. If someone says they feel "addicted" to sugar/fast food/whatever, I'm inclined to give that person the benefit of the doubt and assume that they, if nothing else, are really struggling and aren't looking to argue the semantics of whether or not what they are dealing with is truly "addiction" or not (and they certainly aren't looking to get into a contest in He!!, attempting oneupsmanship or trying to minimize the struggles of others). They need help, strategies for dealing with problem foods or situations. They need encouragement, possibly professional counseling. They aren't trying to minimize anyone else's struggles or successes. They are seeking help.
Good morning everyone. Wow, this thread went interesting places.
Alcoholics have a physiological response to alcohol that can't be fixed or improved upon with counseling. They must abstain. Problem drinkers are often drinking to cope with other issues - depression, anxiety, stress, grief, etc., and if you get to the root of the issue and provide other tools, they can usually manage their drinking. Some can even drink in moderation.
Since there is no known physiological mechanism to be dependent/addicted to sugar (or any other food), anyone's claims about addiction are 1) an exaggeration of temptation 2) buying into media hype or 3) a real psychological issue, akin to problem drinking. It's a behavioral disorder than can be corrected with help and a new tool set for coping with issues. I also think that if sugar wasn't available, these people would overeat/binge eat on other foods because they are satisfying a compulsion to eat. Sugary foods are very common binge foods because they're highly palatable and easy to eat a lot of it without feeling full, so the compulsion to eat can be given into for longer periods without discomfort.
All of that said, I completely agree with keeping the debating to a thread like this and not questioning their "addiction." Anyone who comes on here seeking help for how to manage their sugar/otherfood consumption should be given tips and strategies, and in some cases encouraged to seek professional help.5 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
I don't. For me a craving is relatively easy to deal with because it's clear and can either be fought or dealt with. If I crave a food I figure out how to satisfy the craving in a healthier way, have a little, or fight it/put it off. What has always been harder for me are other things -- like the mind saying "oh, it doesn't matter" or "I'll do this tonight and then tomorrow will be different." Similarly, with aggressive cravings you can figure out how to satisfy them in some way, but there's also the constant feeling of wanting to eat or the habitual response of wanting to eat with certain triggers (emotional eating).
You can figure out how to deal with this other stuff too, and I have been successfully (and not, from time to time) working on it, but I disagree that it's inherently easier than cravings or that someone who tends to prefer savory foods (me, although I like plenty of sweet things) is somehow more responsible for their weight issues than someone who is a sugar fiend.
NOT saying my stuff is harder, of course, but this idea that some people have a much harder time than others (just because they say they do) is IMO a way of making an excuse.
I think some people do have a harder time -- I think having eating disorder type thinking or long-term messed up ideas about food (vs. logical thinking) or being really wrapped up in the idea that being fat/overeating makes you a failure so you end up with a cycle of shame and depression and the like ALL make it harder. (But that doesn't mean you have a harder time in general than others -- I find it really offputting when people do the "poor me, everyone else has it so easy" stuff.) But usually that has exactly nothing to do with who is claiming addiction and who is not. I've been motivated to reach out to some posters (and seen others I wanted to reach out to but didn't know how to help) who I felt like were really struggling and had a harder time than others (often people who were morbidly obese) and I have a friend in RL in that situation who I wish I knew how to help, but these aren't generally the people I've seen claiming "addiction" (and I don't think that's the issue--it's rarely just sugar, or just some specific food, after all, but maladaptive eating behaviors).
I also think not having experience with eating healthfully at all (the people who seem to never eat vegetables, not to have an idea of what a balanced meal is, who don't cook ever, or ask what to eat if they cut down on sugar, as if dinner normally involved lots of added sugar) can certainly make things harder, but again that's not about addiction. It's about education and developing your palate.
The bolded part reminds me of the "contests in He!!" that my husband I and used to have early on in our marriage (when we were both younger and less mature). I'm a sahm, my husband commutes for work. He gets up earlier than I do, but often my sleep is broken because I'm the one who attends to the children if they wake at night. We used to spend considerable time arguing over 'who is most tired' lol. I refer to it as a "contest in He!!" because whoever "wins" ultimately loses (you're the most tired? congratulations, you lose). Once we stopped seeing it as some sort of competition, we were able to help each other and work together to maximize everyone's sleep.
Acknowledging that some people may have a harder time managing weight than others is not making excuses (it's only an excuse if they use it as a reason to stop trying altogether).
But that's what they often seem to be doing. (I'm also thinking of the posts that are basically "it's not fair, my friends eat worse than me" or "it's not fair, I don't eat very much"). That strikes me as denial (amusingly, given the topic of the thread). I just figure that someone claiming that isn't ready and usually don't engage.
More to the point, however, you seem to be making assumptions that certain specific people have it harder, and simply because they claim addiction. What I see is the people using the term addiction go on to describe the same sorts of things that many or most of us deal with, and just don't yet have the tools or strategies to deal (I usually try to help with this). The purpose of the term addiction seems to be to take something that's really quite typical and human (bad habits re eating behaviors aggravated by how available food is and often a lack of organization or logical thought about food) and classify it as a special disorder that only a few people have, which leads them to think that what they are dealing with is not normal or what many of us successfully have dealt with, but some sort of extra problem that makes things different or harder for them. I don't think that's helpful. When I stopped thinking "why is this happening to me" about food and realized how much it was the result of my choices is when I was able to lose weight. Not always -- I've regained, struggled with stuff (including depression), etc. I know it's not always easy. But thinking that there's something wrong with you if it's not easy or you are tempted or struggle or act contrary to your intentions (all part of the human condition, really), is what seems to me to be a huge mistake. You aren't tempted because you have been made addicted by BigSugar. You are tempted because you are a normal human being.If you are finding it off putting that others deal with issues you apparently don't deal with, that's a reflection on you.
This is not what I've said at all, and I don't believe you could have gotten this from an honest reading of my posts.
To clarify - I'm not saying that everyone who claims to be addicted truly is addicted. They may very well be just learning to cope with the same things everyone else deals with. And again, the distinction isn't always clear cut, and often only happens in retrospect.
I see the "it's not fair" posts in a whole different category - people making assumptions about how much others eat the rest of the time based on one meal (and that one meal often being at a restaraunt or the like), or people just starting out and learning how small portions of certain foods really are (it isn't fair how small one ounce of cheese really is - not. fair. dammit.). I don't think those people simply aren't ready (tho some may not be), but rather they are dealing with the initial shock and disconnect over how much food they were eating vs how little they have to eat in order to lose weight.
As for the last part - I may certainly misunderstood your saying that you find the "poor me, everyone else has it so much easier" aspect of claiming addiction off putting (I'm paraphrasing here). I guess I don't take someone dealing with issues that I don't deal with (or that I've learned to deal with effectively) as a commentary on how hard/easy it is for me or anyone else. I do truly believe that some people do have it harder than others, for a multitude of reasons (addiction being a possibility, uncommon, but still possible). There is a marked difference between acknowledging one's personal hurdles and challenges and working to find solutions vs having a pity party and using those challenges as a reason to give up altogether. I do find the latter offputting, not because they feel they have it harder than some others, but because they decide that's reason to stop trying or they think they are the *only one evah* to have the issue in question. If that's more what you meant, I'm sorry if I misunderstood.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
Yeah but it's the end of the MFP forum world to say someone has a harder time than another person. Bad bad bad!
I think everyone has their own challenges. Some have it easier than others. With the differences in bodies (hormone levels as an example), it is harder and easier for individuals. Uhoh, another end of the world statements.
Lol at "bad bad bad". Guess I should have started with "all things being equal". Certainly I agree that there are other challenges out there that are as bad or worse. I agree on the hormonal stuff, and meds that have been shown to cause weight gain comes to mind, depression and high stress levels etc.
What gets me with the addiction posts specifically, is the posters often assume that being tempted or wanting to eat more than you should = addiction, and other posters who don't claim addiction don't experience this. So why would we get fat? Of course we have temptation and all the rest and messed up eating behaviors often. I just don't think that's addiction or that someone who claims to be "addicted" has it harder than everyone else.
I think focusing on the actual specifics (vs. claiming "oh, can't help it, once I have sugar I lose it, because addict" -- BigSugar made me fat) tends to be extremely illuminating and helpful, as it focuses in on why you are actually overeating, when, in what context, so on. Not eating certain trigger foods (even all aggressively sweet things) can certainly be a part of the solution, depending on context. None of that has to do with addiction, again, however.
I don't think anyone is saying all overweight people are food addicts.
It seems to me that what you are saying -- and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to understand -- is that some people who self identify as addicts have it harder than the rest of us, who don't self identify as addicts. I'd like to know what makes you so sure that it's harder for you just because you use that term for stuff that many of the rest of us also experience, but simply think is quite different from addiction, when the term is correctly used.
I am saying that everyone has a different level of hard when it comes to losing weight. If food addiction is involved, it is a layer of hard. Some people post that it's easy for them to lose. Some people post that they have a hard time.
I have never said it was harder for me than anyone else. I certainly have never said it was harder for me and easier for Lemurcat12. You seem to take what I have said personally. I have said that it is hard for ME to lose weight.
I believe it is correct to use the word addiction for food addiction. I don't believe that everyone who is overweight is a food addict.
@tlflag1620 contest in he!! Perfectly explains those immature early in marriage fights. Love it!!1 -
HI! I liked your post as I am someone who just posted with a title about sugar addiction. It was more meant to just be a silly illustration about how I feel (taken pretty seriously by a lot of people, I wish I would not have titled it that), but you are right to say I was looking for some help and encouragement about strategies to avoid overindulgence. Sometimes you just get a little off track for the short term and are trying to get back to the healthy lifestyle you have been working at.
I "know" the right thing to do but you need some people to help influence and encourage you. For me, being healthy is a big mental game. That is one thing I love about MyFitnessPal. It is a tool to connect with people and help you keep accountable to your health and fitness goals. Sweets are always something I have struggled with and I think those who don't have those kind of specific food related struggles have trouble understanding where you are coming from. In no way am I a person who thinks anything about my decisions "are not my fault"... but I do often think of sugar is the devil for me personally as it tempts me. Sometimes I do not do well regarding eating and feel defeated by the choices I have made, but I know they are my choices and I can change them. This encourages me to think that changing my thoughts on this (e.g. thinking of sugar as the devil at times, not all the time) it will help me to be stronger in the face of temptation. Something to work on.
I did think the definitions you gave were a good read. What I am not sure is if you are saying it is possible to have a food addiction or dependence? RobD, I would be interested to hear what you think. I have never read much about it, but know a lot of people who experience something similar to your definition of addiction to food.
I totally agree because I share the same issues.0 -
I'm late to the game and so this may have been covered and I missed it, but the OP seems to put things into one of two categories: addiction (in my mind a debilitating and all consuming physiological component) or dependence (relying heavily on a substance or a habit to satisfy a particular need). What I see often in these forums, when a person claims they are addicted to sugar or food, is more of what I would call a behavioral compulsion tied to a very strong craving. Often, if the OP is interested in discussing in detail their particular challenges, it seems that the issues arise in under certain situations (stress, boredom, depression) and are related to a particular food (M&Ms) but not an overarching substance (ie all sugar) which indicates to me neither addiction, nor dependence are the correct terminology for what they are experiencing.
What I usually try to offer with posts like those is to acknowledge that those desires can make the poster feel out of control and like the food has power over them, similar to what an addict describes, but when a person analyzes the situational and emotional triggers they often realize that these are more of a factor than the food itself. To me, it is empowering to acknowledge that the food itself is not addictive, or that they aren't dependent on it; but that they can work through these emotional and habitual triggers and learn to either avoid the food altogether, or eventually learn to moderate it. I don't try to diminish what they are going through, but instead try to offer them some alternatives (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is a good one for someone who is really struggling with these triggers) so that they may get at the root cause of the issue.
I think that words and the way we use them do matter, and that by letting something slide when someone says they are "addicted to food" or "sugar is worse than heroin" while it may seem harmless, it can in fact perpetuate that person's learned helplessness.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
Yeah but it's the end of the MFP forum world to say someone has a harder time than another person. Bad bad bad!
I think everyone has their own challenges. Some have it easier than others. With the differences in bodies (hormone levels as an example), it is harder and easier for individuals. Uhoh, another end of the world statements.
Lol at "bad bad bad". Guess I should have started with "all things being equal". Certainly I agree that there are other challenges out there that are as bad or worse. I agree on the hormonal stuff, and meds that have been shown to cause weight gain comes to mind, depression and high stress levels etc.
What gets me with the addiction posts specifically, is the posters often assume that being tempted or wanting to eat more than you should = addiction, and other posters who don't claim addiction don't experience this. So why would we get fat? Of course we have temptation and all the rest and messed up eating behaviors often. I just don't think that's addiction or that someone who claims to be "addicted" has it harder than everyone else.
I think focusing on the actual specifics (vs. claiming "oh, can't help it, once I have sugar I lose it, because addict" -- BigSugar made me fat) tends to be extremely illuminating and helpful, as it focuses in on why you are actually overeating, when, in what context, so on. Not eating certain trigger foods (even all aggressively sweet things) can certainly be a part of the solution, depending on context. None of that has to do with addiction, again, however.
I don't think anyone is saying all overweight people are food addicts.
It seems to me that what you are saying -- and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to understand -- is that some people who self identify as addicts have it harder than the rest of us, who don't self identify as addicts. I'd like to know what makes you so sure that it's harder for you just because you use that term for stuff that many of the rest of us also experience, but simply think is quite different from addiction, when the term is correctly used.
I think it's a fine line. Consider - what's the difference between and alcoholic and a heavy drinker? Not every heavy drinker qualifies as an alcoholic under current definitions (only about 10% do). That doesn't mean they don't have struggles or that their alcohol use isn't problematic. They just aren't "alcoholics".
I guess my point is - it's not clear cut. If someone says they feel "addicted" to sugar/fast food/whatever, I'm inclined to give that person the benefit of the doubt and assume that they, if nothing else, are really struggling and aren't looking to argue the semantics of whether or not what they are dealing with is truly "addiction" or not (and they certainly aren't looking to get into a contest in He!!, attempting oneupsmanship or trying to minimize the struggles of others). They need help, strategies for dealing with problem foods or situations. They need encouragement, possibly professional counseling. They aren't trying to minimize anyone else's struggles or successes. They are seeking help.
And exactly who has refused to help them? Who has said the primary response should be "you are not an addict"?
Not me, so I am puzzled why you are saying this to me.
IMO, they AREN'T addicts, but sure, they are struggling and don't know what to do to deal with their stumbling blocks to weight loss. I always try to help with that. (I also think NOT calling it an addiction is part of what's helpful, but I don't actually push that. I simply CANNOT myself pretend to believe it is an addiction when to do so would be a lie.)
I have seen posts of people asking for help in managing their "sugar addiction" where people have responded with only the following (AND NOTHING ELSE):
"Sugar addiction is not a thing."
I agree that I have never seen you respond this way; but I have seen others do so. I really don't think, in the context of someone asking for help, whether it qualifies clinically as an addiction is important.
And even if it IS an addiction, it is not helpful or productive for anyone to use that as an excuse.9 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
Yeah but it's the end of the MFP forum world to say someone has a harder time than another person. Bad bad bad!
I think everyone has their own challenges. Some have it easier than others. With the differences in bodies (hormone levels as an example), it is harder and easier for individuals. Uhoh, another end of the world statements.
Lol at "bad bad bad". Guess I should have started with "all things being equal". Certainly I agree that there are other challenges out there that are as bad or worse. I agree on the hormonal stuff, and meds that have been shown to cause weight gain comes to mind, depression and high stress levels etc.
What gets me with the addiction posts specifically, is the posters often assume that being tempted or wanting to eat more than you should = addiction, and other posters who don't claim addiction don't experience this. So why would we get fat? Of course we have temptation and all the rest and messed up eating behaviors often. I just don't think that's addiction or that someone who claims to be "addicted" has it harder than everyone else.
I think focusing on the actual specifics (vs. claiming "oh, can't help it, once I have sugar I lose it, because addict" -- BigSugar made me fat) tends to be extremely illuminating and helpful, as it focuses in on why you are actually overeating, when, in what context, so on. Not eating certain trigger foods (even all aggressively sweet things) can certainly be a part of the solution, depending on context. None of that has to do with addiction, again, however.
I don't think anyone is saying all overweight people are food addicts.
It seems to me that what you are saying -- and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to understand -- is that some people who self identify as addicts have it harder than the rest of us, who don't self identify as addicts. I'd like to know what makes you so sure that it's harder for you just because you use that term for stuff that many of the rest of us also experience, but simply think is quite different from addiction, when the term is correctly used.
I think it's a fine line. Consider - what's the difference between and alcoholic and a heavy drinker? Not every heavy drinker qualifies as an alcoholic under current definitions (only about 10% do). That doesn't mean they don't have struggles or that their alcohol use isn't problematic. They just aren't "alcoholics".
I guess my point is - it's not clear cut. If someone says they feel "addicted" to sugar/fast food/whatever, I'm inclined to give that person the benefit of the doubt and assume that they, if nothing else, are really struggling and aren't looking to argue the semantics of whether or not what they are dealing with is truly "addiction" or not (and they certainly aren't looking to get into a contest in He!!, attempting oneupsmanship or trying to minimize the struggles of others). They need help, strategies for dealing with problem foods or situations. They need encouragement, possibly professional counseling. They aren't trying to minimize anyone else's struggles or successes. They are seeking help.
And exactly who has refused to help them? Who has said the primary response should be "you are not an addict"?
Not me, so I am puzzled why you are saying this to me.
IMO, they AREN'T addicts, but sure, they are struggling and don't know what to do to deal with their stumbling blocks to weight loss. I always try to help with that. (I also think NOT calling it an addiction is part of what's helpful, but I don't actually push that. I simply CANNOT myself pretend to believe it is an addiction when to do so would be a lie.)
I have seen posts of people asking for help in managing their "sugar addiction" where people have responded with only the following (AND NOTHING ELSE):
"Sugar addiction is not a thing."
I agree that I have never seen you respond this way; but I have seen others do so. I really don't think, in the context of someone asking for help, whether it qualifies clinically as an addiction is important.
And even if it IS an addiction, it is not helpful or productive for anyone to use that as an excuse.
That is my opinion as well. I think Sunnybeaches said something similar earlier. The point is that there are in fact practical actions which can be implemented to combat a prospective addiction which are beneficial regardless of the definition you assign the condition.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
Yeah but it's the end of the MFP forum world to say someone has a harder time than another person. Bad bad bad!
I think everyone has their own challenges. Some have it easier than others. With the differences in bodies (hormone levels as an example), it is harder and easier for individuals. Uhoh, another end of the world statements.
Lol at "bad bad bad". Guess I should have started with "all things being equal". Certainly I agree that there are other challenges out there that are as bad or worse. I agree on the hormonal stuff, and meds that have been shown to cause weight gain comes to mind, depression and high stress levels etc.
What gets me with the addiction posts specifically, is the posters often assume that being tempted or wanting to eat more than you should = addiction, and other posters who don't claim addiction don't experience this. So why would we get fat? Of course we have temptation and all the rest and messed up eating behaviors often. I just don't think that's addiction or that someone who claims to be "addicted" has it harder than everyone else.
I think focusing on the actual specifics (vs. claiming "oh, can't help it, once I have sugar I lose it, because addict" -- BigSugar made me fat) tends to be extremely illuminating and helpful, as it focuses in on why you are actually overeating, when, in what context, so on. Not eating certain trigger foods (even all aggressively sweet things) can certainly be a part of the solution, depending on context. None of that has to do with addiction, again, however.
I don't think anyone is saying all overweight people are food addicts.
It seems to me that what you are saying -- and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to understand -- is that some people who self identify as addicts have it harder than the rest of us, who don't self identify as addicts. I'd like to know what makes you so sure that it's harder for you just because you use that term for stuff that many of the rest of us also experience, but simply think is quite different from addiction, when the term is correctly used.
I am saying that everyone has a different level of hard when it comes to losing weight. If food addiction is involved, it is a layer of hard.
What do you mean by "food addiction" in this statement (because again I don't think it's possible to be addicted to food).Some people post that it's easy for them to lose. Some people post that they have a hard time.
You actually can't get much from this either. Some people find it hard until it clicks and is easy. Some people don't like to admit when things are hard for them (I am in this category -- used to pretend I never studied, for example, that I dashed off every paper in about an hour, whereas others would brag about how much they studied -- different personality types). Some people interpret different things as hardships. You just can't tell.
Obviously there are various stumbling blocks that individuals can have that make weight loss more or less difficult at a specific time, I agree with this. I don't think this has a thing to do with "addiction" or that we know who is actually dealing with more.I have never said it was harder for me than anyone else. I certainly have never said it was harder for me and easier for Lemurcat12. You seem to take what I have said personally. I have said that it is hard for ME to lose weight.
You seem to be claiming that there's a thing called food addiction and people who have food addiction (and you put yourself in that category) have it harder. So I am asking you what specifically you think makes it harder for you? To me you seem to be suggesting that there's a category of people (non addicts) who don't deal with temptation or bad habits or the like, who simply became fat because they chose to overindulge all logically and can easily stop without any difficulty. I think that's a misunderstanding. Maybe there are some like that, but people who deny food addiction aren't saying they aren't tempted or feel out of control or eat for reasons they don't always get or find logical, etc. Nor are they saying that once they realized that overeating made them fat that they immediately stopped, because of course only an addict would eat with negative consequences and being fat apparently counts as a negative consequence.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
Yeah but it's the end of the MFP forum world to say someone has a harder time than another person. Bad bad bad!
I think everyone has their own challenges. Some have it easier than others. With the differences in bodies (hormone levels as an example), it is harder and easier for individuals. Uhoh, another end of the world statements.
Lol at "bad bad bad". Guess I should have started with "all things being equal". Certainly I agree that there are other challenges out there that are as bad or worse. I agree on the hormonal stuff, and meds that have been shown to cause weight gain comes to mind, depression and high stress levels etc.
What gets me with the addiction posts specifically, is the posters often assume that being tempted or wanting to eat more than you should = addiction, and other posters who don't claim addiction don't experience this. So why would we get fat? Of course we have temptation and all the rest and messed up eating behaviors often. I just don't think that's addiction or that someone who claims to be "addicted" has it harder than everyone else.
I think focusing on the actual specifics (vs. claiming "oh, can't help it, once I have sugar I lose it, because addict" -- BigSugar made me fat) tends to be extremely illuminating and helpful, as it focuses in on why you are actually overeating, when, in what context, so on. Not eating certain trigger foods (even all aggressively sweet things) can certainly be a part of the solution, depending on context. None of that has to do with addiction, again, however.
I don't think anyone is saying all overweight people are food addicts.
It seems to me that what you are saying -- and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to understand -- is that some people who self identify as addicts have it harder than the rest of us, who don't self identify as addicts. I'd like to know what makes you so sure that it's harder for you just because you use that term for stuff that many of the rest of us also experience, but simply think is quite different from addiction, when the term is correctly used.
I am saying that everyone has a different level of hard when it comes to losing weight. If food addiction is involved, it is a layer of hard.
What do you mean by "food addiction" in this statement (because again I don't think it's possible to be addicted to food).Some people post that it's easy for them to lose. Some people post that they have a hard time.
You actually can't get much from this either. Some people find it hard until it clicks and is easy. Some people don't like to admit when things are hard for them (I am in this category -- used to pretend I never studied, for example, that I dashed off every paper in about an hour, whereas others would brag about how much they studied -- different personality types). Some people interpret different things as hardships. You just can't tell.
Obviously there are various stumbling blocks that individuals can have that make weight loss more or less difficult at a specific time, I agree with this. I don't think this has a thing to do with "addiction" or that we know who is actually dealing with more.I have never said it was harder for me than anyone else. I certainly have never said it was harder for me and easier for Lemurcat12. You seem to take what I have said personally. I have said that it is hard for ME to lose weight.
You seem to be claiming that there's a thing called food addiction and people who have food addiction (and you put yourself in that category) have it harder. So I am asking you what specifically you think makes it harder for you? To me you seem to be suggesting that there's a category of people (non addicts) who don't deal with temptation or bad habits or the like, who simply became fat because they chose to overindulge all logically and can easily stop without any difficulty. I think that's a misunderstanding. Maybe there are some like that, but people who deny food addiction aren't saying they aren't tempted or feel out of control or eat for reasons they don't always get or find logical, etc. Nor are they saying that once they realized that overeating made them fat that they immediately stopped, because of course only an addict would eat with negative consequences and being fat apparently counts as a negative consequence.
Look I agree to disagree with you about food addiction. There's nothing you are going to say to change my mind. There is nothing I am going to say to change your mind.
Luckily it doesn't matter what either of us think about it. Either perspective can work when losing weight.4 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
I don't. For me a craving is relatively easy to deal with because it's clear and can either be fought or dealt with. If I crave a food I figure out how to satisfy the craving in a healthier way, have a little, or fight it/put it off. What has always been harder for me are other things -- like the mind saying "oh, it doesn't matter" or "I'll do this tonight and then tomorrow will be different." Similarly, with aggressive cravings you can figure out how to satisfy them in some way, but there's also the constant feeling of wanting to eat or the habitual response of wanting to eat with certain triggers (emotional eating).
You can figure out how to deal with this other stuff too, and I have been successfully (and not, from time to time) working on it, but I disagree that it's inherently easier than cravings or that someone who tends to prefer savory foods (me, although I like plenty of sweet things) is somehow more responsible for their weight issues than someone who is a sugar fiend.
NOT saying my stuff is harder, of course, but this idea that some people have a much harder time than others (just because they say they do) is IMO a way of making an excuse.
I think some people do have a harder time -- I think having eating disorder type thinking or long-term messed up ideas about food (vs. logical thinking) or being really wrapped up in the idea that being fat/overeating makes you a failure so you end up with a cycle of shame and depression and the like ALL make it harder. (But that doesn't mean you have a harder time in general than others -- I find it really offputting when people do the "poor me, everyone else has it so easy" stuff.) But usually that has exactly nothing to do with who is claiming addiction and who is not. I've been motivated to reach out to some posters (and seen others I wanted to reach out to but didn't know how to help) who I felt like were really struggling and had a harder time than others (often people who were morbidly obese) and I have a friend in RL in that situation who I wish I knew how to help, but these aren't generally the people I've seen claiming "addiction" (and I don't think that's the issue--it's rarely just sugar, or just some specific food, after all, but maladaptive eating behaviors).
I also think not having experience with eating healthfully at all (the people who seem to never eat vegetables, not to have an idea of what a balanced meal is, who don't cook ever, or ask what to eat if they cut down on sugar, as if dinner normally involved lots of added sugar) can certainly make things harder, but again that's not about addiction. It's about education and developing your palate.
The bolded part reminds me of the "contests in He!!" that my husband I and used to have early on in our marriage (when we were both younger and less mature). I'm a sahm, my husband commutes for work. He gets up earlier than I do, but often my sleep is broken because I'm the one who attends to the children if they wake at night. We used to spend considerable time arguing over 'who is most tired' lol. I refer to it as a "contest in He!!" because whoever "wins" ultimately loses (you're the most tired? congratulations, you lose). Once we stopped seeing it as some sort of competition, we were able to help each other and work together to maximize everyone's sleep.
Acknowledging that some people may have a harder time managing weight than others is not making excuses (it's only an excuse if they use it as a reason to stop trying altogether).
But that's what they often seem to be doing. (I'm also thinking of the posts that are basically "it's not fair, my friends eat worse than me" or "it's not fair, I don't eat very much"). That strikes me as denial (amusingly, given the topic of the thread). I just figure that someone claiming that isn't ready and usually don't engage.
More to the point, however, you seem to be making assumptions that certain specific people have it harder, and simply because they claim addiction. What I see is the people using the term addiction go on to describe the same sorts of things that many or most of us deal with, and just don't yet have the tools or strategies to deal (I usually try to help with this). The purpose of the term addiction seems to be to take something that's really quite typical and human (bad habits re eating behaviors aggravated by how available food is and often a lack of organization or logical thought about food) and classify it as a special disorder that only a few people have, which leads them to think that what they are dealing with is not normal or what many of us successfully have dealt with, but some sort of extra problem that makes things different or harder for them. I don't think that's helpful. When I stopped thinking "why is this happening to me" about food and realized how much it was the result of my choices is when I was able to lose weight. Not always -- I've regained, struggled with stuff (including depression), etc. I know it's not always easy. But thinking that there's something wrong with you if it's not easy or you are tempted or struggle or act contrary to your intentions (all part of the human condition, really), is what seems to me to be a huge mistake. You aren't tempted because you have been made addicted by BigSugar. You are tempted because you are a normal human being.If you are finding it off putting that others deal with issues you apparently don't deal with, that's a reflection on you.
This is not what I've said at all, and I don't believe you could have gotten this from an honest reading of my posts.
To clarify - I'm not saying that everyone who claims to be addicted truly is addicted. They may very well be just learning to cope with the same things everyone else deals with. And again, the distinction isn't always clear cut, and often only happens in retrospect.
Other than the fact I see 0 reason to believe that there is any kind of food addiction (again, eating addiction is different, though rare), I mostly agree with this. I think they are learning to cope with the same things many others are or have.I guess I don't take someone dealing with issues that I don't deal with (or that I've learned to deal with effectively) as a commentary on how hard/easy it is for me or anyone else.
So far I've seen no evidence that the people claiming addiction ARE dealing with issues others are not. When you read the specifics, it seems to me that they are simply assuming that the same things most deal with are abnormal and uncommon, are "addiction." They assume others are not tempted, that they will naturally just stop eating when full if eating out of a big basket of tortilla chips or some such. That's how I think they are like those insisting that everyone else has it easier. What they are claiming is some huge difficulty for them is just normal human stuff.I do truly believe that some people do have it harder than others, for a multitude of reasons (addiction being a possibility, uncommon, but still possible).
Sure, I just don't think we can typically tell from MFP who has it easier such that it's possible to claim (as people seemed to be) that anyone who doesn't believe in food addiction just doesn't understand how HARD it is for some. I've certainly found it harder at some stages of life than others (why I've lost weight when I did and not or even gained at other times). If by addiction you mean eating addiction, I can agree with the statement (and certainly that it's uncommon and a hurdle).There is a marked difference between acknowledging one's personal hurdles and challenges and working to find solutions vs having a pity party and using those challenges as a reason to give up altogether. I do find the latter offputting, not because they feel they have it harder than some others, but because they decide that's reason to stop trying or they think they are the *only one evah* to have the issue in question. If that's more what you meant, I'm sorry if I misunderstood.
Yes, that's basically what I meant, as well as assuming that most people who get fat just ate too much in some kind of chosen celebration of gluttony or something, whereas they couldn't help it, they were "addicted" (by which they mean were tempted and felt out of control around food).
It's not abnormal or a psychological problem or an "addiction" to have trouble moderating foods absent a strategy and when you've been eating immoderately for some time. It's 100% normal and expected. I'm more surprised that some don't have such troubles.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »I'm late to the game and so this may have been covered and I missed it, but the OP seems to put things into one of two categories: addiction (in my mind a debilitating and all consuming physiological component) or dependence (relying heavily on a substance or a habit to satisfy a particular need). What I see often in these forums, when a person claims they are addicted to sugar or food, is more of what I would call a behavioral compulsion tied to a very strong craving. Often, if the OP is interested in discussing in detail their particular challenges, it seems that the issues arise in under certain situations (stress, boredom, depression) and are related to a particular food (M&Ms) but not an overarching substance (ie all sugar) which indicates to me neither addiction, nor dependence are the correct terminology for what they are experiencing.
What I usually try to offer with posts like those is to acknowledge that those desires can make the poster feel out of control and like the food has power over them, similar to what an addict describes, but when a person analyzes the situational and emotional triggers they often realize that these are more of a factor than the food itself. To me, it is empowering to acknowledge that the food itself is not addictive, or that they aren't dependent on it; but that they can work through these emotional and habitual triggers and learn to either avoid the food altogether, or eventually learn to moderate it. I don't try to diminish what they are going through, but instead try to offer them some alternatives (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is a good one for someone who is really struggling with these triggers) so that they may get at the root cause of the issue.
I think that words and the way we use them do matter, and that by letting something slide when someone says they are "addicted to food" or "sugar is worse than heroin" while it may seem harmless, it can in fact perpetuate that person's learned helplessness.
Since I've gotten distracted into rather bizarre tangents (my own fault), I just want to say that this is precisely my own view as well, and thank you for putting it so well.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
Yeah but it's the end of the MFP forum world to say someone has a harder time than another person. Bad bad bad!
I think everyone has their own challenges. Some have it easier than others. With the differences in bodies (hormone levels as an example), it is harder and easier for individuals. Uhoh, another end of the world statements.
Lol at "bad bad bad". Guess I should have started with "all things being equal". Certainly I agree that there are other challenges out there that are as bad or worse. I agree on the hormonal stuff, and meds that have been shown to cause weight gain comes to mind, depression and high stress levels etc.
What gets me with the addiction posts specifically, is the posters often assume that being tempted or wanting to eat more than you should = addiction, and other posters who don't claim addiction don't experience this. So why would we get fat? Of course we have temptation and all the rest and messed up eating behaviors often. I just don't think that's addiction or that someone who claims to be "addicted" has it harder than everyone else.
I think focusing on the actual specifics (vs. claiming "oh, can't help it, once I have sugar I lose it, because addict" -- BigSugar made me fat) tends to be extremely illuminating and helpful, as it focuses in on why you are actually overeating, when, in what context, so on. Not eating certain trigger foods (even all aggressively sweet things) can certainly be a part of the solution, depending on context. None of that has to do with addiction, again, however.
I don't think anyone is saying all overweight people are food addicts.
It seems to me that what you are saying -- and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to understand -- is that some people who self identify as addicts have it harder than the rest of us, who don't self identify as addicts. I'd like to know what makes you so sure that it's harder for you just because you use that term for stuff that many of the rest of us also experience, but simply think is quite different from addiction, when the term is correctly used.
I think it's a fine line. Consider - what's the difference between and alcoholic and a heavy drinker? Not every heavy drinker qualifies as an alcoholic under current definitions (only about 10% do). That doesn't mean they don't have struggles or that their alcohol use isn't problematic. They just aren't "alcoholics".
I guess my point is - it's not clear cut. If someone says they feel "addicted" to sugar/fast food/whatever, I'm inclined to give that person the benefit of the doubt and assume that they, if nothing else, are really struggling and aren't looking to argue the semantics of whether or not what they are dealing with is truly "addiction" or not (and they certainly aren't looking to get into a contest in He!!, attempting oneupsmanship or trying to minimize the struggles of others). They need help, strategies for dealing with problem foods or situations. They need encouragement, possibly professional counseling. They aren't trying to minimize anyone else's struggles or successes. They are seeking help.
And exactly who has refused to help them? Who has said the primary response should be "you are not an addict"?
Not me, so I am puzzled why you are saying this to me.
IMO, they AREN'T addicts, but sure, they are struggling and don't know what to do to deal with their stumbling blocks to weight loss. I always try to help with that. (I also think NOT calling it an addiction is part of what's helpful, but I don't actually push that. I simply CANNOT myself pretend to believe it is an addiction when to do so would be a lie.)
I have seen posts of people asking for help in managing their "sugar addiction" where people have responded with only the following (AND NOTHING ELSE):
"Sugar addiction is not a thing."
I agree that I have never seen you respond this way; but I have seen others do so. I really don't think, in the context of someone asking for help, whether it qualifies clinically as an addiction is important.
And even if it IS an addiction, it is not helpful or productive for anyone to use that as an excuse.
So why make that response TO ME? I've never seen such a thread where the person doesn't get good advice, and yet the advice is normally ignored to fight about addiction -- and usually the claims are dependence, with assertions about withdrawal and comparisons to heroin, again.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
Yeah but it's the end of the MFP forum world to say someone has a harder time than another person. Bad bad bad!
I think everyone has their own challenges. Some have it easier than others. With the differences in bodies (hormone levels as an example), it is harder and easier for individuals. Uhoh, another end of the world statements.
Lol at "bad bad bad". Guess I should have started with "all things being equal". Certainly I agree that there are other challenges out there that are as bad or worse. I agree on the hormonal stuff, and meds that have been shown to cause weight gain comes to mind, depression and high stress levels etc.
What gets me with the addiction posts specifically, is the posters often assume that being tempted or wanting to eat more than you should = addiction, and other posters who don't claim addiction don't experience this. So why would we get fat? Of course we have temptation and all the rest and messed up eating behaviors often. I just don't think that's addiction or that someone who claims to be "addicted" has it harder than everyone else.
I think focusing on the actual specifics (vs. claiming "oh, can't help it, once I have sugar I lose it, because addict" -- BigSugar made me fat) tends to be extremely illuminating and helpful, as it focuses in on why you are actually overeating, when, in what context, so on. Not eating certain trigger foods (even all aggressively sweet things) can certainly be a part of the solution, depending on context. None of that has to do with addiction, again, however.
I don't think anyone is saying all overweight people are food addicts.
It seems to me that what you are saying -- and correct me if I'm wrong, because I'd like to understand -- is that some people who self identify as addicts have it harder than the rest of us, who don't self identify as addicts. I'd like to know what makes you so sure that it's harder for you just because you use that term for stuff that many of the rest of us also experience, but simply think is quite different from addiction, when the term is correctly used.
I think it's a fine line. Consider - what's the difference between and alcoholic and a heavy drinker? Not every heavy drinker qualifies as an alcoholic under current definitions (only about 10% do). That doesn't mean they don't have struggles or that their alcohol use isn't problematic. They just aren't "alcoholics".
I guess my point is - it's not clear cut. If someone says they feel "addicted" to sugar/fast food/whatever, I'm inclined to give that person the benefit of the doubt and assume that they, if nothing else, are really struggling and aren't looking to argue the semantics of whether or not what they are dealing with is truly "addiction" or not (and they certainly aren't looking to get into a contest in He!!, attempting oneupsmanship or trying to minimize the struggles of others). They need help, strategies for dealing with problem foods or situations. They need encouragement, possibly professional counseling. They aren't trying to minimize anyone else's struggles or successes. They are seeking help.
And exactly who has refused to help them? Who has said the primary response should be "you are not an addict"?
Not me, so I am puzzled why you are saying this to me.
IMO, they AREN'T addicts, but sure, they are struggling and don't know what to do to deal with their stumbling blocks to weight loss. I always try to help with that. (I also think NOT calling it an addiction is part of what's helpful, but I don't actually push that. I simply CANNOT myself pretend to believe it is an addiction when to do so would be a lie.)
I have seen posts of people asking for help in managing their "sugar addiction" where people have responded with only the following (AND NOTHING ELSE):
"Sugar addiction is not a thing."
I agree that I have never seen you respond this way; but I have seen others do so. I really don't think, in the context of someone asking for help, whether it qualifies clinically as an addiction is important.
And even if it IS an addiction, it is not helpful or productive for anyone to use that as an excuse.
That is my opinion as well. I think Sunnybeaches said something similar earlier. The point is that there are in fact practical actions which can be implemented to combat a prospective addiction which are beneficial regardless of the definition you assign the condition.
For the record (again), I agree with this. That's how I respond in those threads.
I think THIS thread is about the broader question of whether it's CORRECT to call it an addiction.
There seems to be a difference between participants as to whether it is unhelpful to call something that is clearly (IMO) not an addiction an addiction -- some of us think it doesn't matter, some think it is harmful. Personally, I'm undecided on that. I feel like I have to say that I don't think it is -- to do otherwise would be dishonest and a violation of my own strong beliefs on the topic -- but I don't argue it with OP and try to get to what I have to say about strategy. Some people (not the OPs, normally) don't seem to be able to accept even that. Everyone must be made to admit it IS an addiction (although it's not), and that's IMO what brings the threads into that argument more often than not. Extreme claims about heroin, etc.
As a side issue, and related to my own issues with addiction, as well as close family members, it bothers me when people seem to be misunderstanding what addiction is -- for example, basically suggesting that addiction is just really liking something a super lot, or having a taste for it, or even overdoing it even when the short term pleasures are outweighed by rather attenuated longterm consequences.
That last I get as a way of interpreting the criteria of doing it despite negative consequences, but humans do lots of things despite negative consequences because we are bad at weighing short term vs. long term consequences. That, to me, is very unlike the kinds of behaviors that I think addicts indulge in. In other words, no, doing something even though it makes you fat doesn't mean you are an addict. It means in the moment no one really thinks eating a cookie or going out to eat or even having an overall indulgent day is going to make a real difference as to how fat they are. It's a longterm consequence. (Just like no one thinks that blowing off school to go hang out with friends will affect the job they ultimately have, even though a serious of such choices and it likely could.)0 -
Nevermind. Just repeating myself again. ;-)0
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lemurcat12 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
I don't. For me a craving is relatively easy to deal with because it's clear and can either be fought or dealt with. If I crave a food I figure out how to satisfy the craving in a healthier way, have a little, or fight it/put it off. What has always been harder for me are other things -- like the mind saying "oh, it doesn't matter" or "I'll do this tonight and then tomorrow will be different." Similarly, with aggressive cravings you can figure out how to satisfy them in some way, but there's also the constant feeling of wanting to eat or the habitual response of wanting to eat with certain triggers (emotional eating).
You can figure out how to deal with this other stuff too, and I have been successfully (and not, from time to time) working on it, but I disagree that it's inherently easier than cravings or that someone who tends to prefer savory foods (me, although I like plenty of sweet things) is somehow more responsible for their weight issues than someone who is a sugar fiend.
NOT saying my stuff is harder, of course, but this idea that some people have a much harder time than others (just because they say they do) is IMO a way of making an excuse.
I think some people do have a harder time -- I think having eating disorder type thinking or long-term messed up ideas about food (vs. logical thinking) or being really wrapped up in the idea that being fat/overeating makes you a failure so you end up with a cycle of shame and depression and the like ALL make it harder. (But that doesn't mean you have a harder time in general than others -- I find it really offputting when people do the "poor me, everyone else has it so easy" stuff.) But usually that has exactly nothing to do with who is claiming addiction and who is not. I've been motivated to reach out to some posters (and seen others I wanted to reach out to but didn't know how to help) who I felt like were really struggling and had a harder time than others (often people who were morbidly obese) and I have a friend in RL in that situation who I wish I knew how to help, but these aren't generally the people I've seen claiming "addiction" (and I don't think that's the issue--it's rarely just sugar, or just some specific food, after all, but maladaptive eating behaviors).
I also think not having experience with eating healthfully at all (the people who seem to never eat vegetables, not to have an idea of what a balanced meal is, who don't cook ever, or ask what to eat if they cut down on sugar, as if dinner normally involved lots of added sugar) can certainly make things harder, but again that's not about addiction. It's about education and developing your palate.
The bolded part reminds me of the "contests in He!!" that my husband I and used to have early on in our marriage (when we were both younger and less mature). I'm a sahm, my husband commutes for work. He gets up earlier than I do, but often my sleep is broken because I'm the one who attends to the children if they wake at night. We used to spend considerable time arguing over 'who is most tired' lol. I refer to it as a "contest in He!!" because whoever "wins" ultimately loses (you're the most tired? congratulations, you lose). Once we stopped seeing it as some sort of competition, we were able to help each other and work together to maximize everyone's sleep.
Acknowledging that some people may have a harder time managing weight than others is not making excuses (it's only an excuse if they use it as a reason to stop trying altogether).
But that's what they often seem to be doing. (I'm also thinking of the posts that are basically "it's not fair, my friends eat worse than me" or "it's not fair, I don't eat very much"). That strikes me as denial (amusingly, given the topic of the thread). I just figure that someone claiming that isn't ready and usually don't engage.
More to the point, however, you seem to be making assumptions that certain specific people have it harder, and simply because they claim addiction. What I see is the people using the term addiction go on to describe the same sorts of things that many or most of us deal with, and just don't yet have the tools or strategies to deal (I usually try to help with this). The purpose of the term addiction seems to be to take something that's really quite typical and human (bad habits re eating behaviors aggravated by how available food is and often a lack of organization or logical thought about food) and classify it as a special disorder that only a few people have, which leads them to think that what they are dealing with is not normal or what many of us successfully have dealt with, but some sort of extra problem that makes things different or harder for them. I don't think that's helpful. When I stopped thinking "why is this happening to me" about food and realized how much it was the result of my choices is when I was able to lose weight. Not always -- I've regained, struggled with stuff (including depression), etc. I know it's not always easy. But thinking that there's something wrong with you if it's not easy or you are tempted or struggle or act contrary to your intentions (all part of the human condition, really), is what seems to me to be a huge mistake. You aren't tempted because you have been made addicted by BigSugar. You are tempted because you are a normal human being.If you are finding it off putting that others deal with issues you apparently don't deal with, that's a reflection on you.
This is not what I've said at all, and I don't believe you could have gotten this from an honest reading of my posts.
To clarify - I'm not saying that everyone who claims to be addicted truly is addicted. They may very well be just learning to cope with the same things everyone else deals with. And again, the distinction isn't always clear cut, and often only happens in retrospect.
Other than the fact I see 0 reason to believe that there is any kind of food addiction (again, eating addiction is different, though rare), I mostly agree with this. I think they are learning to cope with the same things many others are or have.I guess I don't take someone dealing with issues that I don't deal with (or that I've learned to deal with effectively) as a commentary on how hard/easy it is for me or anyone else.
So far I've seen no evidence that the people claiming addiction ARE dealing with issues others are not. When you read the specifics, it seems to me that they are simply assuming that the same things most deal with are abnormal and uncommon, are "addiction." They assume others are not tempted, that they will naturally just stop eating when full if eating out of a big basket of tortilla chips or some such. That's how I think they are like those insisting that everyone else has it easier. What they are claiming is some huge difficulty for them is just normal human stuff.I do truly believe that some people do have it harder than others, for a multitude of reasons (addiction being a possibility, uncommon, but still possible).
Sure, I just don't think we can typically tell from MFP who has it easier such that it's possible to claim (as people seemed to be) that anyone who doesn't believe in food addiction just doesn't understand how HARD it is for some. I've certainly found it harder at some stages of life than others (why I've lost weight when I did and not or even gained at other times). If by addiction you mean eating addiction, I can agree with the statement (and certainly that it's uncommon and a hurdle).There is a marked difference between acknowledging one's personal hurdles and challenges and working to find solutions vs having a pity party and using those challenges as a reason to give up altogether. I do find the latter offputting, not because they feel they have it harder than some others, but because they decide that's reason to stop trying or they think they are the *only one evah* to have the issue in question. If that's more what you meant, I'm sorry if I misunderstood.
Yes, that's basically what I meant, as well as assuming that most people who get fat just ate too much in some kind of chosen celebration of gluttony or something, whereas they couldn't help it, they were "addicted" (by which they mean were tempted and felt out of control around food).
It's not abnormal or a psychological problem or an "addiction" to have trouble moderating foods absent a strategy and when you've been eating immoderately for some time. It's 100% normal and expected. I'm more surprised that some don't have such troubles.
I don't think there is an implicit assumption that everyone else got fat by "logically overindulging". I think most overweight people who don't suffer disordered eating (let's leave aside the term addiction for a moment) gain weight either gradually over time (combo of metabolism naturally slowing due to age coupled with just slight over eating, even just an extra 100 calories per day adds up over time) or there is a life event that leads to gain (an accident that leaves the person immobilized for a period of time, pregnancies, change from a very physically active job to a more sedentary one, quitting smoking, etc). So no, it's not a conscious choice to indulge in gluttony. I don't think people who claim to be addicted to foods are trying to make any such claim. On the contrary, I think they know (at least I hope they know) that they got fat making bad decisions; perhaps "addiction" is their way of explaining why they made those bad decisions (not excusing, just explaining). Whether it's true or not would really depend.
As others have pointed out, there currently exists no evidence to prove that there is any physical mechanism for addiction to certain foods. But the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Many here reject the notion of addiction to certain foods out of hand. And that's fine; at this point it seems a matter of opinion. We still can't explain why some people can handle moderate intake of certain substances and never become addicted, but others become strongly addicted even after light/occasional intake. I'm of the opinion that we may well one day find out that, yes, you can become addicted (both physically and mentally) to certain foods or ingredients. And that there will be a distinction between "problem" consumers of those foods and true addicts (just as there is a distinction between problem drinkers and alcoholics). But it's all pure speculation at this point.
I don't think anyone is claiming that the majority of people don't have to deal with cravings or temptations. I think the claim is more that, for some people, overcoming those things is (or at least appears to be) harder than it is for others. Maybe addiction is the wrong term, who knows? But if there is a mechanism that makes cravings more intense or temptations harder to resist, yeah, it sounds like it could be a form of addiction; at least I can't think of a better term for it.
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tlflag1620 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
I don't. For me a craving is relatively easy to deal with because it's clear and can either be fought or dealt with. If I crave a food I figure out how to satisfy the craving in a healthier way, have a little, or fight it/put it off. What has always been harder for me are other things -- like the mind saying "oh, it doesn't matter" or "I'll do this tonight and then tomorrow will be different." Similarly, with aggressive cravings you can figure out how to satisfy them in some way, but there's also the constant feeling of wanting to eat or the habitual response of wanting to eat with certain triggers (emotional eating).
You can figure out how to deal with this other stuff too, and I have been successfully (and not, from time to time) working on it, but I disagree that it's inherently easier than cravings or that someone who tends to prefer savory foods (me, although I like plenty of sweet things) is somehow more responsible for their weight issues than someone who is a sugar fiend.
NOT saying my stuff is harder, of course, but this idea that some people have a much harder time than others (just because they say they do) is IMO a way of making an excuse.
I think some people do have a harder time -- I think having eating disorder type thinking or long-term messed up ideas about food (vs. logical thinking) or being really wrapped up in the idea that being fat/overeating makes you a failure so you end up with a cycle of shame and depression and the like ALL make it harder. (But that doesn't mean you have a harder time in general than others -- I find it really offputting when people do the "poor me, everyone else has it so easy" stuff.) But usually that has exactly nothing to do with who is claiming addiction and who is not. I've been motivated to reach out to some posters (and seen others I wanted to reach out to but didn't know how to help) who I felt like were really struggling and had a harder time than others (often people who were morbidly obese) and I have a friend in RL in that situation who I wish I knew how to help, but these aren't generally the people I've seen claiming "addiction" (and I don't think that's the issue--it's rarely just sugar, or just some specific food, after all, but maladaptive eating behaviors).
I also think not having experience with eating healthfully at all (the people who seem to never eat vegetables, not to have an idea of what a balanced meal is, who don't cook ever, or ask what to eat if they cut down on sugar, as if dinner normally involved lots of added sugar) can certainly make things harder, but again that's not about addiction. It's about education and developing your palate.
The bolded part reminds me of the "contests in He!!" that my husband I and used to have early on in our marriage (when we were both younger and less mature). I'm a sahm, my husband commutes for work. He gets up earlier than I do, but often my sleep is broken because I'm the one who attends to the children if they wake at night. We used to spend considerable time arguing over 'who is most tired' lol. I refer to it as a "contest in He!!" because whoever "wins" ultimately loses (you're the most tired? congratulations, you lose). Once we stopped seeing it as some sort of competition, we were able to help each other and work together to maximize everyone's sleep.
Acknowledging that some people may have a harder time managing weight than others is not making excuses (it's only an excuse if they use it as a reason to stop trying altogether).
But that's what they often seem to be doing. (I'm also thinking of the posts that are basically "it's not fair, my friends eat worse than me" or "it's not fair, I don't eat very much"). That strikes me as denial (amusingly, given the topic of the thread). I just figure that someone claiming that isn't ready and usually don't engage.
More to the point, however, you seem to be making assumptions that certain specific people have it harder, and simply because they claim addiction. What I see is the people using the term addiction go on to describe the same sorts of things that many or most of us deal with, and just don't yet have the tools or strategies to deal (I usually try to help with this). The purpose of the term addiction seems to be to take something that's really quite typical and human (bad habits re eating behaviors aggravated by how available food is and often a lack of organization or logical thought about food) and classify it as a special disorder that only a few people have, which leads them to think that what they are dealing with is not normal or what many of us successfully have dealt with, but some sort of extra problem that makes things different or harder for them. I don't think that's helpful. When I stopped thinking "why is this happening to me" about food and realized how much it was the result of my choices is when I was able to lose weight. Not always -- I've regained, struggled with stuff (including depression), etc. I know it's not always easy. But thinking that there's something wrong with you if it's not easy or you are tempted or struggle or act contrary to your intentions (all part of the human condition, really), is what seems to me to be a huge mistake. You aren't tempted because you have been made addicted by BigSugar. You are tempted because you are a normal human being.If you are finding it off putting that others deal with issues you apparently don't deal with, that's a reflection on you.
This is not what I've said at all, and I don't believe you could have gotten this from an honest reading of my posts.
To clarify - I'm not saying that everyone who claims to be addicted truly is addicted. They may very well be just learning to cope with the same things everyone else deals with. And again, the distinction isn't always clear cut, and often only happens in retrospect.
Other than the fact I see 0 reason to believe that there is any kind of food addiction (again, eating addiction is different, though rare), I mostly agree with this. I think they are learning to cope with the same things many others are or have.I guess I don't take someone dealing with issues that I don't deal with (or that I've learned to deal with effectively) as a commentary on how hard/easy it is for me or anyone else.
So far I've seen no evidence that the people claiming addiction ARE dealing with issues others are not. When you read the specifics, it seems to me that they are simply assuming that the same things most deal with are abnormal and uncommon, are "addiction." They assume others are not tempted, that they will naturally just stop eating when full if eating out of a big basket of tortilla chips or some such. That's how I think they are like those insisting that everyone else has it easier. What they are claiming is some huge difficulty for them is just normal human stuff.I do truly believe that some people do have it harder than others, for a multitude of reasons (addiction being a possibility, uncommon, but still possible).
Sure, I just don't think we can typically tell from MFP who has it easier such that it's possible to claim (as people seemed to be) that anyone who doesn't believe in food addiction just doesn't understand how HARD it is for some. I've certainly found it harder at some stages of life than others (why I've lost weight when I did and not or even gained at other times). If by addiction you mean eating addiction, I can agree with the statement (and certainly that it's uncommon and a hurdle).There is a marked difference between acknowledging one's personal hurdles and challenges and working to find solutions vs having a pity party and using those challenges as a reason to give up altogether. I do find the latter offputting, not because they feel they have it harder than some others, but because they decide that's reason to stop trying or they think they are the *only one evah* to have the issue in question. If that's more what you meant, I'm sorry if I misunderstood.
Yes, that's basically what I meant, as well as assuming that most people who get fat just ate too much in some kind of chosen celebration of gluttony or something, whereas they couldn't help it, they were "addicted" (by which they mean were tempted and felt out of control around food).
It's not abnormal or a psychological problem or an "addiction" to have trouble moderating foods absent a strategy and when you've been eating immoderately for some time. It's 100% normal and expected. I'm more surprised that some don't have such troubles.
I don't think there is an implicit assumption that everyone else got fat by "logically overindulging". I think most overweight people who don't suffer disordered eating (let's leave aside the term addiction for a moment) gain weight either gradually over time (combo of metabolism naturally slowing due to age coupled with just slight over eating, even just an extra 100 calories per day adds up over time) or there is a life event that leads to gain (an accident that leaves the person immobilized for a period of time, pregnancies, change from a very physically active job to a more sedentary one, quitting smoking, etc). So no, it's not a conscious choice to indulge in gluttony. I don't think people who claim to be addicted to foods are trying to make any such claim. On the contrary, I think they know (at least I hope they know) that they got fat making bad decisions; perhaps "addiction" is their way of explaining why they made those bad decisions (not excusing, just explaining). Whether it's true or not would really depend.
The way I read the "food addiction" arguments, that is exactly what they are denying. Others made bad decisions; they couldn't help it. (Part of why this bothers me is that that's NOT what addiction even means -- someone who is an alcoholic and drinks is making a bad decision, after all -- but it is how addiction is used in this context.)As others have pointed out, there currently exists no evidence to prove that there is any physical mechanism for addiction to certain foods. But the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
We have MORE than that, though. People claim to be addicted to one food with a high sugar content but not another, or one food with a high combination of sugar + butter but not another. It's like claiming someone could be addicted to mass market beers (supposedly more "processed" or some such nonsense, let's say) ;-) vs. craft beers.I don't think anyone is claiming that the majority of people don't have to deal with cravings or temptations. I think the claim is more that, for some people, overcoming those things is (or at least appears to be) harder than it is for others.
But what's the evidence for that? People who post the addiction threads mostly seem to feel out of control under the same circumstances that I think it would be common and expected to feel out of control. I normally read those threads and think I totally understand how the person is feeling and what they are dealing with--it sounds so familiar. It also just doesn't sound like addiction.But if there is a mechanism that makes cravings more intense or temptations harder to resist, yeah, it sounds like it could be a form of addiction; at least I can't think of a better term for it.
Where are we getting the idea that people who call it addiction are experiencing more intense cravings? (And again, I don't even think "cravings" are really the whole issue with addiction. The mind is more subtle than that.)3 -
goldthistime wrote: »I DO think it's harder for someone who is dealing with intense sugar cravings than it is for someone who is not. They both have all the normal challenges of staying in a calorie deficit, plus the so called sugar addict is dealing with an added element. One that they often consider to be their biggest challenge.
Yeah but it's the end of the MFP forum world to say someone has a harder time than another person. Bad bad bad!
I think everyone has their own challenges. Some have it easier than others. With the differences in bodies (hormone levels as an example), it is harder and easier for individuals. Uhoh, another end of the world statements.
The problem here is that this is an internet forum and everyone's a stranger. How is someone to judge whether their challenge is greater or less than someone else's? How do they know their sugar cravings are more or less intense than someone else's (barring those that say they have none)?
Frankly, many times posts about 'uncontrollable' cravings have eventually turned out to be the poster unintentionally making a mountain out of a molehill. Often the posters are successful with basic strategies for breaking a habit, so clearly the cravings were not insurmountable although they seem overwhelming at the time.1 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »I get what the OP is saying. Another way to think about it is this: If an alcoholic is sober and free of any physical dependencies, is it reasonable for them to attempt drinking moderately?
And the voice of reason cries out that this is a flawed line of reasoning because there is no such thing as an addiction to sugar as a substance!
If there were such a thing as sugarholism, I would say "Yes! Recovering sugarholics should avoid sugar just like an alcoholic should avoid alcohol."
But it isn't a thing!!!
The voice of reason clearly cries out that you are chosing to redefine the term addiction.
I maintain you either did not read, or you do not understand, or you are chosing to ignore aspects of my original post.
Again, I read your post thoroughly.
The only redefining going on is your turning "addiction" into "irresponsibility."
Addiction doesn't mean "I want this so bad that I'll do it even though it's bad for me."
Addiction means "I'm going to do this because I can't help it" or "I'm going to do this because it "hurts" not to."
ad·dic·tion
əˈdikSH(ə)n/
noun
the fact or condition of being addicted to a particular substance, thing, or activity.
"he committed the theft to finance his drug addiction"
ad·dict·ed
əˈdiktəd/
adjective
physically and mentally dependent on a particular substance, and unable to stop taking it without incurring adverse effects.
"she became addicted to alcohol and diet pills"
This condition does not occur with sugar. Period.
Nor does it occur with any behaviors...which you concluded earlier could be addictive.
ETA: There are several sources which define those terms differently.
Also, I do not think admitting to an addiction is a form of irresponsibility. In fact, I think it is the beginning of taking responsibility for individuals who are truly addicted.
Actually, it does occur with certain behaviors which is why I called that out in my first post.
I didn't say that it is irresponsible to admit an addiction. I was contesting the OP's assertion that addiction is defined as craving "something so strongly that they consume the substance, or repeat the behavior, even when the substance or behavior is doing substantial harm."
That is not addiction. It is irresponsibility.
Addiction is not just engaging in something regardless of consequences. It is engaging in something because they can't help it whether due to dependency, phsychological disorder, etc.
Addiction is irresponsible.
I think here is where the disconnect takes place - you seem to think (for some reason) that admitting or claiming to be an addict somehow absolves a person of any and all responsibility for their choices. It doesn't.
I don't know where you got that because that's not even close to accurate.
Addicts are fully responsible for their own situations and actions. Absolutely.
If I misunderstood you, I apologize. You had said inability to control ones behavior wrt food is "irresponsibility", but addict (who are incapable of controlling their behavior wrt whatever they are addicted to) "can't help it". In both cases the person "can't help it". That's kind of what characterizes it as addiction; if they were in complete control they wouldn't be addicts.
And really, I should clarify - unaddressed, untreated addiction is irresponsible. Someone who has taken steps to get help and change their behavior and regain control is not irresponsible.
What I was saying there is that when I stopped at Wendy's this evening and got a chocolate frosty even though it would put me in a surplus for the day, I was not out of control.
If I'd decided to go home and have some steamed broccoli instead, I'd have been just fine.
But I was irresponsible and went for the instant gratification.
For an addict, resisting temptation results in withdrawal and/or fits.
It is certainly irresponsible to use addictive substances.
But while all addictions are irresponsible, not all irresponsibility is a sign of addiction.
You said it yourself - you were not out of control. You chose to go over your calories one day. I wouldn't even call that "irresponsible". If it were happening frequently, maybe, but I get the impression that you make responsible food choices the majority of the time. Just as someone can go to the bar now and then, have two beers, and end it, and not be an addict, you can go to Wendy's, have one frosty, and end it, and not be an addict. Those examples are not addiction. They're not even what I would call irresponsible.
Ah, but what if last night it was a frosty and tonight it were mozzarella sticks from Applebee's? Tomorrow could be pizza and the next day BBQ. Over the weekend it might be a bunch of peanut butter and ice cream.
I could keep up that kind of reckless eating until no one would call it responsible anymore (again, assuming each of those things put me in a surplus).
Am I addicted to eating poorly? Nope. Just lazy and/or apathetic.
Am I addicted to sugar? Nope. A lot of those foods are light on sugar and heavy on fat.
At this point, I'm eating so irresponsibly that I'm harming myself and still no addiction is involved.
And such is the case for the vast majority of dieters who claim to be addicted to sugar.tlflag1620 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »I get what the OP is saying. Another way to think about it is this: If an alcoholic is sober and free of any physical dependencies, is it reasonable for them to attempt drinking moderately?
And the voice of reason cries out that this is a flawed line of reasoning because there is no such thing as an addiction to sugar as a substance!
If there were such a thing as sugarholism, I would say "Yes! Recovering sugarholics should avoid sugar just like an alcoholic should avoid alcohol."
But it isn't a thing!!!
The voice of reason clearly cries out that you are chosing to redefine the term addiction.
I maintain you either did not read, or you do not understand, or you are chosing to ignore aspects of my original post.
Again, I read your post thoroughly.
The only redefining going on is your turning "addiction" into "irresponsibility."
Addiction doesn't mean "I want this so bad that I'll do it even though it's bad for me."
Addiction means "I'm going to do this because I can't help it" or "I'm going to do this because it "hurts" not to."
ad·dic·tion
əˈdikSH(ə)n/
noun
the fact or condition of being addicted to a particular substance, thing, or activity.
"he committed the theft to finance his drug addiction"
ad·dict·ed
əˈdiktəd/
adjective
physically and mentally dependent on a particular substance, and unable to stop taking it without incurring adverse effects.
"she became addicted to alcohol and diet pills"
This condition does not occur with sugar. Period.
Nor does it occur with any behaviors...which you concluded earlier could be addictive.
ETA: There are several sources which define those terms differently.
Also, I do not think admitting to an addiction is a form of irresponsibility. In fact, I think it is the beginning of taking responsibility for individuals who are truly addicted.
Actually, it does occur with certain behaviors which is why I called that out in my first post.
I didn't say that it is irresponsible to admit an addiction. I was contesting the OP's assertion that addiction is defined as craving "something so strongly that they consume the substance, or repeat the behavior, even when the substance or behavior is doing substantial harm."
That is not addiction. It is irresponsibility.
Addiction is not just engaging in something regardless of consequences. It is engaging in something because they can't help it whether due to dependency, phsychological disorder, etc.
Addiction is irresponsible.
I think here is where the disconnect takes place - you seem to think (for some reason) that admitting or claiming to be an addict somehow absolves a person of any and all responsibility for their choices. It doesn't.
I don't know where you got that because that's not even close to accurate.
Addicts are fully responsible for their own situations and actions. Absolutely.
If I misunderstood you, I apologize. You had said inability to control ones behavior wrt food is "irresponsibility", but addict (who are incapable of controlling their behavior wrt whatever they are addicted to) "can't help it". In both cases the person "can't help it". That's kind of what characterizes it as addiction; if they were in complete control they wouldn't be addicts.
And really, I should clarify - unaddressed, untreated addiction is irresponsible. Someone who has taken steps to get help and change their behavior and regain control is not irresponsible.
What I was saying there is that when I stopped at Wendy's this evening and got a chocolate frosty even though it would put me in a surplus for the day, I was not out of control.
If I'd decided to go home and have some steamed broccoli instead, I'd have been just fine.
But I was irresponsible and went for the instant gratification.
For an addict, resisting temptation results in withdrawal and/or fits.
It is certainly irresponsible to use addictive substances.
But while all addictions are irresponsible, not all irresponsibility is a sign of addiction.
No one is saying that being addicted is an excuse not to lose weight, not sure why you think it is.
I have already replied to you directly and explained that I do not think it is. Not sure why you think I do.
What I have said is that there are those who show up on MFP saying that it's impossible for them to lose weight because they're addicted to sugar. Deny it if you like but it happens frequently.
I never said they have a legitimate excuse (they don't) but they do try to claim their supposed addiction as a valid excuse for why they're overweight.
Again, just so that you don't misunderstand me or forget what I said again:
They try to use their supposed addiction to sugar as an excuse but it is not a legitimate excuse at all, even if it were real.
Clear now?tlflag1620 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »I get what the OP is saying. Another way to think about it is this: If an alcoholic is sober and free of any physical dependencies, is it reasonable for them to attempt drinking moderately?
And the voice of reason cries out that this is a flawed line of reasoning because there is no such thing as an addiction to sugar as a substance!
If there were such a thing as sugarholism, I would say "Yes! Recovering sugarholics should avoid sugar just like an alcoholic should avoid alcohol."
But it isn't a thing!!!
The voice of reason clearly cries out that you are chosing to redefine the term addiction.
I maintain you either did not read, or you do not understand, or you are chosing to ignore aspects of my original post.
Again, I read your post thoroughly.
The only redefining going on is your turning "addiction" into "irresponsibility."
Addiction doesn't mean "I want this so bad that I'll do it even though it's bad for me."
Addiction means "I'm going to do this because I can't help it" or "I'm going to do this because it "hurts" not to."
ad·dic·tion
əˈdikSH(ə)n/
noun
the fact or condition of being addicted to a particular substance, thing, or activity.
"he committed the theft to finance his drug addiction"
ad·dict·ed
əˈdiktəd/
adjective
physically and mentally dependent on a particular substance, and unable to stop taking it without incurring adverse effects.
"she became addicted to alcohol and diet pills"
This condition does not occur with sugar. Period.
Nor does it occur with any behaviors...which you concluded earlier could be addictive.
ETA: There are several sources which define those terms differently.
Also, I do not think admitting to an addiction is a form of irresponsibility. In fact, I think it is the beginning of taking responsibility for individuals who are truly addicted.
Actually, it does occur with certain behaviors which is why I called that out in my first post.
I didn't say that it is irresponsible to admit an addiction. I was contesting the OP's assertion that addiction is defined as craving "something so strongly that they consume the substance, or repeat the behavior, even when the substance or behavior is doing substantial harm."
That is not addiction. It is irresponsibility.
Addiction is not just engaging in something regardless of consequences. It is engaging in something because they can't help it whether due to dependency, phsychological disorder, etc.
Addiction is irresponsible.
I think here is where the disconnect takes place - you seem to think (for some reason) that admitting or claiming to be an addict somehow absolves a person of any and all responsibility for their choices. It doesn't.
I don't know where you got that because that's not even close to accurate.
Addicts are fully responsible for their own situations and actions. Absolutely.
If I misunderstood you, I apologize. You had said inability to control ones behavior wrt food is "irresponsibility", but addict (who are incapable of controlling their behavior wrt whatever they are addicted to) "can't help it". In both cases the person "can't help it". That's kind of what characterizes it as addiction; if they were in complete control they wouldn't be addicts.
And really, I should clarify - unaddressed, untreated addiction is irresponsible. Someone who has taken steps to get help and change their behavior and regain control is not irresponsible.
What I was saying there is that when I stopped at Wendy's this evening and got a chocolate frosty even though it would put me in a surplus for the day, I was not out of control.
If I'd decided to go home and have some steamed broccoli instead, I'd have been just fine.
But I was irresponsible and went for the instant gratification.
For an addict, resisting temptation results in withdrawal and/or fits.
It is certainly irresponsible to use addictive substances.
But while all addictions are irresponsible, not all irresponsibility is a sign of addiction.
Wasn't it you that posted the dictionary definition of addiction? If so, did you read what you copied and pasted? I ask with no snark, it seems to me you didn't read it, or at least skipped over quite an important part - addiction is a physical ***or mental*** dependence. We are all physically dependent on food, obviously. When people talk about food addiction it is generally in terms of psychological addiction.
It actually says "*and* mental dependence."
And again, I have not once contested the idea that eating addictions exist. What I have maintained is that the substance of sugar itself is not addictive (despite numerous claims on MFP each week that it's as addictive as crack).
A person may have an eating addiction. I won't dispute that. But they are not addicted to the substance of sugar.3 -
Excuse me, excessive sugar intake can be indicative of yeasts overgrowth issues, if someone has a compromised digestive tract the beneficial microbs become outnumbered so the less beneficial ones which thrive on sugar dominate, these also impact the immune system. These people tend to feel the cold more than others because yeasts thrive at lower temperatures.
Other people can have problems with sugar because it puts increased pressure on the liver and the body's elimination system. Sugar dominates our modern lifestyles which are so very different to our grandparents. These are just two suggestion for why people can consider themselves addicted/dependant on sugar.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »I'm late to the game and so this may have been covered and I missed it, but the OP seems to put things into one of two categories: addiction (in my mind a debilitating and all consuming physiological component) or dependence (relying heavily on a substance or a habit to satisfy a particular need). What I see often in these forums, when a person claims they are addicted to sugar or food, is more of what I would call a behavioral compulsion tied to a very strong craving. Often, if the OP is interested in discussing in detail their particular challenges, it seems that the issues arise in under certain situations (stress, boredom, depression) and are related to a particular food (M&Ms) but not an overarching substance (ie all sugar) which indicates to me neither addiction, nor dependence are the correct terminology for what they are experiencing.
What I usually try to offer with posts like those is to acknowledge that those desires can make the poster feel out of control and like the food has power over them, similar to what an addict describes, but when a person analyzes the situational and emotional triggers they often realize that these are more of a factor than the food itself. To me, it is empowering to acknowledge that the food itself is not addictive, or that they aren't dependent on it; but that they can work through these emotional and habitual triggers and learn to either avoid the food altogether, or eventually learn to moderate it. I don't try to diminish what they are going through, but instead try to offer them some alternatives (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is a good one for someone who is really struggling with these triggers) so that they may get at the root cause of the issue.
I think that words and the way we use them do matter, and that by letting something slide when someone says they are "addicted to food" or "sugar is worse than heroin" while it may seem harmless, it can in fact perpetuate that person's learned helplessness.
Since I've gotten distracted into rather bizarre tangents (my own fault), I just want to say that this is precisely my own view as well, and thank you for putting it so well.
Ditto0 -
What I have said is that there are those who show up on MFP saying that it's impossible for them to lose weight because they're addicted to sugar. Deny it if you like but it happens frequently.
I never said they have a legitimate excuse (they don't) but they do try to claim their supposed addiction as a valid excuse for why they're overweight.
Again, just so that you don't misunderstand me or forget what I said again:
They try to use their supposed addiction to sugar as an excuse but it is not a legitimate excuse at all, even if it were real.
Claiming an addiction as a reason that they are overweight is completely different than saying that it is impossible to lose weight because they are addicted. A person saying the reason that they're drunk all the time is because they are an alcoholic would not necessarily be incorrect. That person saying that they can't get sober because they are an alcoholic would be wrong.
I am still skeptical of the idea that people come unsolicited to weight loss forums to proclaim an excuse for not losing weight. I think the fact that they post it on a forum is an appeal for help rather than a call for absolution.8 -
I can't speak for anyone else, but my experience for the last 50 years or more is one of "food thinking". While everyone else is playing tag football or volleyball at the company picnic, I am eyeballing the food being set out and feeling a bit desperately competitive to get into the line without appearing too eager so I don't miss out on anything. I have eaten many times when I wasn't hungry. If there is leftover food that I like, it occupies my thoughts until it is eaten or out of the house. I have put perfectly good food down the garbage disposal, depriving other family members, rather than have it call to me. If there are goodies at work, I have to stay out of the break room and I am aware, despite being very busy at work, of the food sitting there. To me this seems an addictive pattern. It doesn't mean I don't resist it, but the effort and energy it takes every waking minute is disheartening and sometimes I am not strong. I am tired of having to be strong every waking minute. Lots of other people don't think about food all the time. I am working with a bariatric endocrinologist now on this problem, and I am hopeful.5
-
Fixed it and I agree!Carlos_421 wrote: »And again, I have not once contested the idea that eating addictions exist. What I have maintained is that the substance of sugar itself is not addictive (despite numerous claims on MFP each week that it's as addictive as crack).
A person may have an eating addiction. I won't dispute that. But they are not physically addicted to the substance of sugar.
In spite of what the ads suggest, I've never heard of a single person prostituting themselves for a Klondike Bar.
4 -
KarenHatch1 wrote: »I can't speak for anyone else, but my experience for the last 50 years or more is one of "food thinking". While everyone else is playing tag football or volleyball at the company picnic, I am eyeballing the food being set out and feeling a bit desperately competitive to get into the line without appearing too eager so I don't miss out on anything. I have eaten many times when I wasn't hungry. If there is leftover food that I like, it occupies my thoughts until it is eaten or out of the house. I have put perfectly good food down the garbage disposal, depriving other family members, rather than have it call to me. If there are goodies at work, I have to stay out of the break room and I am aware, despite being very busy at work, of the food sitting there. To me this seems an addictive pattern. It doesn't mean I don't resist it, but the effort and energy it takes every waking minute is disheartening and sometimes I am not strong. I am tired of having to be strong every waking minute. Lots of other people don't think about food all the time. I am working with a bariatric endocrinologist now on this problem, and I am hopeful.
I think you are describing an addictive pattern.
It is exhausting fighting it. I can be busy but my mind is doing double time because the food thoughts are always there. It is not fun having white knuckles all the time because you are trying not to eat. Feels even worse when you give in.
You are right that many people do not think about food all the time. I am fascinated by that because that's how I want to be.
Glad you are getting help. Hopefully you'll have some resolution so you feel more comfortable.2
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