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The Sugar Conspiracy
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I can't answer for nvmomketo, obviously, but I will tell you my experience. For me, it's not sugar, per se. It's carbs of all sorts. I did try choosing more "sensible" or "filling" options, like the banana you mentioned. Trouble is, a banana is a glucose bomb. Oh I thought it was healthy (it's fruit, after all), but that banana (or potato, or brown rice, or hearthealthywholegrain(TM) bread) would spike my BG just the same as the candy. And leave me decidedly NOT full, both at the time, and especially an hour or two later when I'd get ravenously hungry (I think they invented the term "hanger" specifically because of me), then rapidly decline into dizziness, shakiness, cold sweats, and, if I waited to long, blacking out. And so I would reach for a "sensible" "filling" apple (or wheat thins, or low fat yogurt, or whole wheat toast, etc) and the cycle would repeat.
Pairing carbs with fat or protein would help a little (I wouldn't have a full on hypo), but I'd still get that spike in sugar and subsequent drop that triggered hunger (no matter how "full" I was/should have been). I find it doesn't matter whether my carbs come in the form of soda, candy, and table sugar, or cookies, pastries, and ice cream, or even skim milk, sweet potatoes, brown rice, and 100% whole wheat bread - they all do the same thing to me. The only carb that doesn't trigger hunger in me is fiber. I don't really eat fruit anymore (an occasional, much enjoyed, handful of berries being the most notable exception) unless it's savory fruit. I don't eat starchy veg or grains as a general rule (a small portion with a meal now and then), focusing instead on fibrous veg. I only eat full fat dairy (even whole milk is a bit too carby, so most of my dairy is in the form of butter, cream, and full fat cheese). I can get very hedonistic about meat! It's wonderful being able to essentially gorge on steak, burger, chicken with the skin, and bacon. The difference is, if I overeat meat at one meal, I eat less food at my next meal (or skip that meal altogether) because I'm left feeling full for hours and hours. That's in stark contrast to similar hedonistic gorging I'd do on sweets, which would leave me even hungrier at the next meal than if I hadn't eaten anything at all.
It really sounds like you are trying to understand, but that you just don't "get it" because you don't react to carbs that way. That's not an indictment of your character; I don't think I got fat because carbs and you got fat because you're a glutton. I got fat for many reasons (mostly things like a motorcycle accident that left me bedridden for weeks, too much alcohol while at college, a sedentary job after college, and having kids). I imagine you had life circumstances going on as well. And whatever the mechanism, I made poor choices, same as you. Once I figured out what works for me, I started making better choices. Just like you.5 -
diannethegeek wrote: »masterwilde wrote: »So firstly here is the link for you to read yourselves:-
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-lustig-john-yudkin
Its definitely interesting reading, let me have your thoughts please
Did anyone have thoughts on the original article?“If only a small fraction of what we know about the effects of sugar were to be revealed in relation to any other material used as a food additive,” wrote Yudkin, “that material would promptly be banned.”
I love it. Complete fabrications and the usual "that's the reason you're fat!" zealotry.3 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I overeat everything (well, if I like it -- I don't like straight sugar or soda or candy, but I do like sugar + fat, just not more than savory items of various sorts and less if they are too sweet, usually). You want to make that into something beyond a taste difference. Instead, because I don't care for jujubes, this means that you are an "addict" and I can't understand the struggles you face. My overeating is of a different kind. That strikes me as pretty strange.
And that's where the disconnect lies, I think. I can't speak for nvmomketo but I can say that there absolutely is a difference between overindulging in a food because it's delicious and convenient and the compulsion to eat and keep eating some experience from carbs/sugar.
I believe the first responds best to good eating habits and the second to abstinence. Whether it's an addiction, some sort of insulin or other hormone problem I don't know. But I do know it's a real phenomenon that has nothing to do with bad habits, emotional eating or a relationship with food.
But how do you know the things we had problems with weren't doing to us the same sugar did to you?8 -
stevencloser wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I overeat everything (well, if I like it -- I don't like straight sugar or soda or candy, but I do like sugar + fat, just not more than savory items of various sorts and less if they are too sweet, usually). You want to make that into something beyond a taste difference. Instead, because I don't care for jujubes, this means that you are an "addict" and I can't understand the struggles you face. My overeating is of a different kind. That strikes me as pretty strange.
And that's where the disconnect lies, I think. I can't speak for nvmomketo but I can say that there absolutely is a difference between overindulging in a food because it's delicious and convenient and the compulsion to eat and keep eating some experience from carbs/sugar.
I believe the first responds best to good eating habits and the second to abstinence. Whether it's an addiction, some sort of insulin or other hormone problem I don't know. But I do know it's a real phenomenon that has nothing to do with bad habits, emotional eating or a relationship with food.
But how do you know the things we had problems with weren't doing to us the same sugar did to you?
This asks very clearly what I think the rest of us have been trying to say.3 -
stevencloser wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I overeat everything (well, if I like it -- I don't like straight sugar or soda or candy, but I do like sugar + fat, just not more than savory items of various sorts and less if they are too sweet, usually). You want to make that into something beyond a taste difference. Instead, because I don't care for jujubes, this means that you are an "addict" and I can't understand the struggles you face. My overeating is of a different kind. That strikes me as pretty strange.
And that's where the disconnect lies, I think. I can't speak for nvmomketo but I can say that there absolutely is a difference between overindulging in a food because it's delicious and convenient and the compulsion to eat and keep eating some experience from carbs/sugar.
I believe the first responds best to good eating habits and the second to abstinence. Whether it's an addiction, some sort of insulin or other hormone problem I don't know. But I do know it's a real phenomenon that has nothing to do with bad habits, emotional eating or a relationship with food.
But how do you know the things we had problems with weren't doing to us the same sugar did to you?
Maybe they are doing the same thing. Hard to tell though because of the refusal to understand the problems around sugar.1 -
stevencloser wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I overeat everything (well, if I like it -- I don't like straight sugar or soda or candy, but I do like sugar + fat, just not more than savory items of various sorts and less if they are too sweet, usually). You want to make that into something beyond a taste difference. Instead, because I don't care for jujubes, this means that you are an "addict" and I can't understand the struggles you face. My overeating is of a different kind. That strikes me as pretty strange.
And that's where the disconnect lies, I think. I can't speak for nvmomketo but I can say that there absolutely is a difference between overindulging in a food because it's delicious and convenient and the compulsion to eat and keep eating some experience from carbs/sugar.
I believe the first responds best to good eating habits and the second to abstinence. Whether it's an addiction, some sort of insulin or other hormone problem I don't know. But I do know it's a real phenomenon that has nothing to do with bad habits, emotional eating or a relationship with food.
But how do you know the things we had problems with weren't doing to us the same sugar did to you?
Word. There was a period of time where my grocery shopping was pretty much tortilla chips and shredded cheese every other day.6 -
stevencloser wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I overeat everything (well, if I like it -- I don't like straight sugar or soda or candy, but I do like sugar + fat, just not more than savory items of various sorts and less if they are too sweet, usually). You want to make that into something beyond a taste difference. Instead, because I don't care for jujubes, this means that you are an "addict" and I can't understand the struggles you face. My overeating is of a different kind. That strikes me as pretty strange.
And that's where the disconnect lies, I think. I can't speak for nvmomketo but I can say that there absolutely is a difference between overindulging in a food because it's delicious and convenient and the compulsion to eat and keep eating some experience from carbs/sugar.
I believe the first responds best to good eating habits and the second to abstinence. Whether it's an addiction, some sort of insulin or other hormone problem I don't know. But I do know it's a real phenomenon that has nothing to do with bad habits, emotional eating or a relationship with food.
But how do you know the things we had problems with weren't doing to us the same sugar did to you?
Maybe they are doing the same thing. Hard to tell though because of the refusal to understand the problems around sugar.
Or, on the contrary, perhaps the refusal to understand that it isn't sugar itself that is the problem.14 -
diannethegeek wrote: »So when insulin stays high for unnaturally long, a person gains weight, gets hungrier, and feels fatigued. Then we blame them for it. But, as Gary Taubes puts it, obese people are not fat because they are overeating and sedentary – they are overeating and sedentary because they are fat, or getting fatter.
That was true for me. My IR appears to have happened before I became fat (I suspect my IR was linked to steroid use). I was eating moderate to high carb and at a fine weight, if not at the high end of the normal BMI. My insulin levels went up, my BG levels went up, and then my weight went up. Conversely, losing weight did not help my IR, and I control it through diet.
My case may not be the norm, but the theory fits my situation well.
Great! You connected with one quote from the original article. What about the way the article goes on to imply that sugar causes fat and not calories? Or the idea that sugar should be banned? Or that the blame lies with the food and not the individual? Or any of the claims of academia suppressing this research because it threatens the established viewpoints? Do you want to engage with the article or are you just here to relive the same old argument you've lived over and over again in every sugar thread to date? Like some kind of purgatorial Groundhog's Day.8 -
stevencloser wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I overeat everything (well, if I like it -- I don't like straight sugar or soda or candy, but I do like sugar + fat, just not more than savory items of various sorts and less if they are too sweet, usually). You want to make that into something beyond a taste difference. Instead, because I don't care for jujubes, this means that you are an "addict" and I can't understand the struggles you face. My overeating is of a different kind. That strikes me as pretty strange.
And that's where the disconnect lies, I think. I can't speak for nvmomketo but I can say that there absolutely is a difference between overindulging in a food because it's delicious and convenient and the compulsion to eat and keep eating some experience from carbs/sugar.
I believe the first responds best to good eating habits and the second to abstinence. Whether it's an addiction, some sort of insulin or other hormone problem I don't know. But I do know it's a real phenomenon that has nothing to do with bad habits, emotional eating or a relationship with food.
But how do you know the things we had problems with weren't doing to us the same sugar did to you?
Maybe they are doing the same thing. Hard to tell though because of the refusal to understand the problems around sugar.
But I honestly think that's the point. There isn't a problem specific to sugar. Whatever your "food I overeat" of choice is, whether it's jelly beans, or chocolate bars, or potato chips, or cheese, or fried chicken - of course it's difficult to change the behavior! But just because it's difficult to change a behavior doesn't mean that specific food is addictive, or creates some special compulsive process in the body. Human beings are creatures of habit. Our brains create pathways they follow without thinking to simplify life. It is hard to change those pathways, whether it is plopping down on the couch after work, or compulsively checking Facebook, or eating a bag of jelly beans or a plate of nachos. That's just life.10 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »masterwilde wrote: »So firstly here is the link for you to read yourselves:-
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-lustig-john-yudkin
Its definitely interesting reading, let me have your thoughts please
Did anyone have thoughts on the original article?“If only a small fraction of what we know about the effects of sugar were to be revealed in relation to any other material used as a food additive,” wrote Yudkin, “that material would promptly be banned.”
I provided a link to a response which I thought was really good much closer in time to when I read the orginal article. It's near the beginning of this thread.
Thanks. I'll have to go back and read it. These threads all start to blur together after a while and I'm sure I missed it.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I overeat everything (well, if I like it -- I don't like straight sugar or soda or candy, but I do like sugar + fat, just not more than savory items of various sorts and less if they are too sweet, usually). You want to make that into something beyond a taste difference. Instead, because I don't care for jujubes, this means that you are an "addict" and I can't understand the struggles you face. My overeating is of a different kind. That strikes me as pretty strange.
And that's where the disconnect lies, I think. I can't speak for nvmomketo but I can say that there absolutely is a difference between overindulging in a food because it's delicious and convenient and the compulsion to eat and keep eating some experience from carbs/sugar.
I believe the first responds best to good eating habits and the second to abstinence. Whether it's an addiction, some sort of insulin or other hormone problem I don't know. But I do know it's a real phenomenon that has nothing to do with bad habits, emotional eating or a relationship with food.
But how do you know the things we had problems with weren't doing to us the same sugar did to you?
Maybe they are doing the same thing. Hard to tell though because of the refusal to understand the problems around sugar.
If they're doing the same thing then it's not a problem inherent to sugar and all those threads are useless.7 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Likewise, I also think demonizing abstinence because YOU find the practice to be unsustainable is a bad idea. I have never said that anybody has an easier road than I do, but there are those who are unfamiliar with my exact situation (as I am with theirs). We all have our trials and tribulations, weaknesses and strengths, we just have to play the cards we're dealt. However, our ability to offer useful advice is limited by our experience and if you have no experience concerning problems with sugary foods, the value of that advice to me is greatly diminished.
Saying you have a problem with sugar/fat/salt doesn't absolve you of responsibility.
I have never once demonized abstinence (nor do I believe it is unsustainable), so once again you are arguing with something I've never said. Why? What's the point? Do you think I will forget that I am not against abstinence if someone prefers it and start arguing that everyone should eat cake? (I barely ever eat cake myself -- not worth the calories.)
lol. Take it easy, lady. I have never once demonized individual components of diet. So why are you arguing with something I never said? The answer (I'm hoping) is that you weren't talking about me specifically (if you were, you must have me confused with someone else). Likewise, I was not talking about you specifically. I still don't get why you would think that.
Seriously? You wrote that to me, immediately after quoting me, in a conversation we were having, and capitalized YOU. Of course it appeared like you were referring to me. I was specifically referring to the Lustig piece and keto mom's comments in the post you quoted, as was clear from the entirety of the post. I do believe that both of them have demonized components of a diet, yes.4 -
Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...9
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Christine_72 wrote: »Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...
Could it be because people define cookies as carbs, despite having more fat in them than anything?13 -
Christine_72 wrote: »Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...
The "addiction" tests pinpoint both fat and carbs (and mostly combinations). What most reduce are mixed fat and carbs, they simply call them "carbs" today because hating carbs is trendy. The same foods would likely have been called "high fat" in the '80s and '90s.
And personally I did cut fat AND carbs, and I crave high protein foods all the time (although I am getting sick of the term "craving"). My biggest craving is probably spicy foods, macros not relevant. I simply think that most high protein foods are good to include in my diet, since they tend to be filling (which doesn't mean I can't overeat them, I could), and I need a certain amount of protein. The hyperpalatable carb/fat foods tend to be lower protein.1 -
Christine_72 wrote: »Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...
Could it be because people define cookies as carbs, despite having more fat in them than anything?
Good point.. Although, my favourite cookies have 15g carbs and 5g fat per serving.0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I overeat everything (well, if I like it -- I don't like straight sugar or soda or candy, but I do like sugar + fat, just not more than savory items of various sorts and less if they are too sweet, usually). You want to make that into something beyond a taste difference. Instead, because I don't care for jujubes, this means that you are an "addict" and I can't understand the struggles you face. My overeating is of a different kind. That strikes me as pretty strange.
And that's where the disconnect lies, I think. I can't speak for nvmomketo but I can say that there absolutely is a difference between overindulging in a food because it's delicious and convenient and the compulsion to eat and keep eating some experience from carbs/sugar.
I believe the first responds best to good eating habits and the second to abstinence. Whether it's an addiction, some sort of insulin or other hormone problem I don't know. But I do know it's a real phenomenon that has nothing to do with bad habits, emotional eating or a relationship with food.
ketomom claimed that she did because of hunger. If you are hungry, eat something filling. Yes, I have had a desire to eat something not that filling because it was delicious, but that's not what she said -- she said the issue was hunger. (My issue is not usually hunger, as I said.)0 -
stevencloser wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I overeat everything (well, if I like it -- I don't like straight sugar or soda or candy, but I do like sugar + fat, just not more than savory items of various sorts and less if they are too sweet, usually). You want to make that into something beyond a taste difference. Instead, because I don't care for jujubes, this means that you are an "addict" and I can't understand the struggles you face. My overeating is of a different kind. That strikes me as pretty strange.
And that's where the disconnect lies, I think. I can't speak for nvmomketo but I can say that there absolutely is a difference between overindulging in a food because it's delicious and convenient and the compulsion to eat and keep eating some experience from carbs/sugar.
I believe the first responds best to good eating habits and the second to abstinence. Whether it's an addiction, some sort of insulin or other hormone problem I don't know. But I do know it's a real phenomenon that has nothing to do with bad habits, emotional eating or a relationship with food.
But how do you know the things we had problems with weren't doing to us the same sugar did to you?
Because good habits worked for you. That wasn't enough for us. If it wasn't enough for you, you'd have employed abstinence, or you would still be fat.1 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I overeat everything (well, if I like it -- I don't like straight sugar or soda or candy, but I do like sugar + fat, just not more than savory items of various sorts and less if they are too sweet, usually). You want to make that into something beyond a taste difference. Instead, because I don't care for jujubes, this means that you are an "addict" and I can't understand the struggles you face. My overeating is of a different kind. That strikes me as pretty strange.
And that's where the disconnect lies, I think. I can't speak for nvmomketo but I can say that there absolutely is a difference between overindulging in a food because it's delicious and convenient and the compulsion to eat and keep eating some experience from carbs/sugar.
I believe the first responds best to good eating habits and the second to abstinence. Whether it's an addiction, some sort of insulin or other hormone problem I don't know. But I do know it's a real phenomenon that has nothing to do with bad habits, emotional eating or a relationship with food.
But how do you know the things we had problems with weren't doing to us the same sugar did to you?
Because good habits worked for you. That wasn't enough for us. If it wasn't enough for you, you'd have employed abstinence, or you would still be fat.
How many people who had problems because of eating too much sugar were able to get by by getting good habits?
How many people who had problems because of eating too much other things weren't?5 -
Christine_72 wrote: »Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...
Could it be because people define cookies as carbs, despite having more fat in them than anything?
And for those of us who continued to experience the same issues, even after cutting out the junky foods? I've said it before - for me it wasn't simply "sugar". My diet was a dietitian's wet dream (whole grains, veggies and ruit, small amounts of lean meat, low fat or fat free dairy, very little added fat and that was mainly unsaturated, no soda or sweet beverages). I still was fat. And hungry. And couldn't lower my calories any further because of the hunger. Until I cut out not only the "added" sugar, but cut down drastically on added sugar, naturally occurring sugar, and starch. Then the hunger finally turned off and I could eat normal amounts of food and feel full for more than an hour at a time.
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