My mistake with "Heavy Lifting"...

jonlfischer

Just a little FYI: being sore or not being sore is NOT a good indicator of intensity or progress.

^^^^^^^ agree^^^^^^^^

WendyTerry420

in...for more understanding on telepathic lifting....:)

^^ This


OP: It's great that you are happier now with whatever "mental change" you made.


When I think of "not concentrating," I think of something like this:



I still do not understand how you can be concentrating on an exercise, but not on your muscles, but my confusion need not rain on your parade. I'm glad you have a routine that seems to be working for you! :drinker:

DarrelBirkett

Yeah you dont need DOMS to succeed, but concentrating on each rep, each muscle is important. You need the connection. Also if you are "relaxed" as you perform a movement you are more likely to employ other muscles more to help with the movement and form can waver. I'd also say to improve gains, slow down the negative.

bumblebums

in...for more understanding on telepathic lifting....:)

^^ This


OP: It's great that you are happier now with whatever "mental change" you made.


When I think of "not concentrating," I think of something like this:



I still do not understand how you can be concentrating on an exercise, but not on your muscles, but my confusion need not rain on your parade. I'm glad you have a routine that seems to be working for you! :drinker:

This is the most horrifying thing I've seen today, and this is after seeing some bro squats at the gym already this morning. Is this guy trying to scratch his knee or something? Wtf.

RoBalance

thanks so much for posting this. I just started lifting so I'm finding it very helpful

dandur

When I think of "not concentrating," I think of something like this:

Can't. Stop. Watching.

GymRatGirl13

So many "experts" on this site. I love that. There are many excellent points and opinions throughout the first 4 pages, to include the OP. I think we tend to over complicate things and let our black and white thinking get in the way of seeing other ways of doing things. With that being said, I think what the OP is saying is that the amount of weight you are lifting ALONE, did not give her the results she was looking for. Her goal was focused on her appearance, not on strength or power. She wanted a six pack and a certain muscular look. She realized that she was not going to meet these goals by simply loading up as much weight as possible for her, then doing an indicated amount of reps. Instead, she needed to focus less on lifting as much, or more weight as the week before, and instead keep her already good form, but drop the weight if needed, and focus on slowing down each rep, and thinking about squeezing and contracting all the way through the rep (contracting the lats, rather than using her shoulders and biceps to move the weight with a lat pulldown for example), or stretching to the full extent possible with the movement to get FULL benefit (really stretching to the ful range, slowly with constant tension, rather than obsessing about having to lift as heavy as possible. She would be able to stretch to a further point, which would stimulate more growth for THIS exercise, if she had a smaller amount of weight. Otherwise, she would stop short in order to move a higher amount of weight...which is just going through the motions on a dumbbell fly for example). I learned this same lesson after trianing for my first figure show. I went into my second season wanting to see a drastic VISUAL improvement in my shoulders, but was struggling to obtain that. I dropped the average weight I had been using for the past six months (also switched other things up to avoid "plateauing") by ten pounds, kept the rep range the same, but slowed down, keeping constant tension on the head of the delt I was working at that time. Bam...boulder shoulders. I hope this helps. Different goal...different approach. Different Person...different needs. No one is an expert. :-)

Sarauk2sf

This is what the OP is talking about

http://70sbig.com/blog/2012/02/contraction-vs-moving-weight/

actually, it is just about exactly what she has said.



It depends on your goals at the end of the day.

WendyTerry420

Is this guy trying to scratch his knee or something? Wtf.

IKR?

quellybelly

Bump! Just started lifting, could use this advice

Sarauk2sf

Bump! Just started lifting, could use this advice

Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness

Unknown

This content has been removed.

bumblebums

I think the OP is right. There is a difference between moving weight, even with proper form, and moving the weight focusing in the muscles you are working on.

If you're skeptical, try it on your next workout. It really does work.

I am not skeptical, just baffled that people aren't doing this to begin with. How can you not focus on the muscles you are using? What are you focusing on?

Of course, that might explain why all those guys at the gym are looking skyward while squatting. They are not focusing on the muscles, they are praying to the Squat God to move the weight for them.

WendyTerry420

This is what the OP is talking about

http://70sbig.com/blog/2012/02/contraction-vs-moving-weight/

actually, it is just about exactly what she has said.



It depends on your goals at the end of the day.

^^ This article helps. Thanks!

I am not skeptical, just baffled that people aren't doing this to begin with. How can you not focus on the muscles you are using? What are you focusing on?

This is kinda where I'm at too. If you are "just pushing the weight," then that seems to me to be just "going through the motions." Or as some people phrase it, "phoning it in."

tedrickp

I am not skeptical, just baffled that people aren't doing this to begin with. How can you not focus on the muscles you are using? What are you focusing on?

Of course, that might explain why all those guys at the gym are looking skyward while squatting. They are not focusing on the muscles, they are praying to the Squat God to move the weight for them.

Compound lifts are a bit harder to think of this concept IMO. I have heard Ian McCarthy (I know he is easy to hate lol) talk about the original subject in terms of isolation exercises. Say something like a bicep curl, or if you hate curls think of a one arm dumbbell row. A lot of people will have perfect "form" but they will focus on their hands pulling the weight up. His contention is you should be thinking purely about the muscles you want activated.

I am sure for many people it is second nature to focus on the working muscles, but until I had heard the way he explained it I didn't think of it consciously.

Danny_Boy13

Surely I can't be the only one to have made this mistake.... I hope...

Okay, so... With all the talk of "lifting heavy" and women need to lift heavy, etc. I figured I would post my experience.

I have been on MFP for almost three years, I have lost around 35lbs and gone from about 32%bf to 19%bf. I started "lifting heavy" around two years ago. I started with (don't laugh) 30 day shred, then New Rules of lifting, then starting strength. I have lifted "heavy" consistently, meaning 3-4 days a week every week.

While I have made some great results I've been extremely disappointed at the fact that I am still not looking how I want to look. My lifts have gone up, I am pushing significantly more weight, but I didn't really get "sore" for more than 12 hours.

I would lift and at the TIME I would feel sore. I would take my 1.5 minute rest in between sets, and I thought my training sessions were "intense"... But again... I wouldn't get sore. I wasn't seeing any change in aesthetics.

In the past few months I decided "okay, how about I hire a personal trainer... I just want to make sure my form is correct". For a long time I looked down on them as most are generally uneducated. I would think "there's nothing they can teach me... I'm probably more knowledgeable than they are". But alas, here I am... Still with no six pack, still not the fantastic physique I want... Clearly they must be doing SOMETHING different, right?

Fast forward three months and HERE'S what I've learned. Was my form wrong? No. Was the intensity at which I was working out wrong? No.

My mistake in "lifting heavy" is far more simple.... I was focusing on pushing/pulling the weight. That's right... I was so focused on performing the exercise with good form and pushing the actual weight that I had almost completely forgone the fact that you should be concentrating on using that muscle.

Now... Did I see pretty good results? I was performing the exercise with "good form" so I must have at least been doing something, right?

Let me tell you, I am now consistently putting tension on said muscle/group when lifting... My "heavy lifting" has gone down about 10% on every single lift... But I have seen FANTASTIC results. I have experienced DOMS, I feel much stronger, everything feels more controlled, and I am looking significantly better.

I can't even believe it took me hiring someone to point out the fact that I should be concentrating on actually using the muscle/group...

Has anyone else experienced this? I thought I knew it all... And... Clearly I was wrong.

Im not sure if this has been mentioned or not but also diet is a key factor in results. I personally experienced this. My workouts were crazy intense, I had a decent build but not that six pack look I was going for. Diet was the only thing I changed and instantly saw results I was after. Diet will be 80% of your results IMO.

elaineirene84

I agree with the OP. My husband who spots me, constantly tells me to slow down. And what do you know, when I started listening to him I felt more progress in what I was doing. I am slowly getting definition in my arms and shoulders. Just going through the motions isn't going to help. I thought going fast and getting through it would work, but it doesn't. Use those muscles!

DDCNY

When you are just trying to move the weight, you end up using lots of other muscles, not just the ones you are trying to develop. If you focus on contracting and flexing the target muscle, the weight will move as a result.

By reading this here I think I now understand. When I first started using weight machines I, too, experienced DOMS because I was thinking about my biceps as I did a curl or I was thinking about my pecs when I worked on the fly machine and I was focusing on using just those muscles to push the weights. Lately I have only been concentrating on adding weight to the stack or doing more reps and I am no longer experiencing DOMS because I am likely using other muscles in addition to the targeted ones when I perform the rep.

At my work there's a boxer who is a security guard and he is always telling me that if I don't feel sore the next day and into the day after, I am doing it wrong. Now I understand. Thanks so much for this thread! When I hit the gym next I will make sure I'm focusing my lifting on the target muscle again. :flowerforyou:

pcastagner

I find this debate interesting.

I believe it comes down to doing the movement in the most efficient way possible for stressing a muscle vs the most efficient way possible for moving the weight. In neither case is it possible for a muscle to contract unless directed to do so by the brain.


Mind-muscle connection may be a good metaphor, but what you are changing is the directions given to your self, not establishing a new connection.

ZoeLifts

in...for more understanding on telepathic lifting....:)

^^ This


OP: It's great that you are happier now with whatever "mental change" you made.


When I think of "not concentrating," I think of something like this:



I still do not understand how you can be concentrating on an exercise, but not on your muscles, but my confusion need not rain on your parade. I'm glad you have a routine that seems to be working for you! :drinker:

This is the most horrifying thing I've seen today, and this is after seeing some bro squats at the gym already this morning. Is this guy trying to scratch his knee or something? Wtf.

This actually looks like the guy got down and got stuck in the hole and since he was not squatting in an actual squat rack or power cage which has safeties to save him when this happens, this seems to be the only solution he could find to getting back up.

So he decided to that, rather than this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE5PmwwjJSM

PrimalGirl

I will admit to not having read through this entire thread, so this might already have been mentioned, but:

It reminds me of when I'm in karate class. I can perform a textbook kick, good balance and hip drive, speed and intensity, exhalation on impact etc, and my sensei will slap me on the back of the head and tell me to do it again "with intent".

I think that's the key - I can do it well or I can do it with intent. Superficially they're both the same - to the untrained eye they will look identical - but intent is way more tiring. Ten good ones and I'm out of breath. Ten with intent and I'm practically throwing up.

PrimalGirl

Capt_Apollo

when i get DOMS, the only thing it is indicating is that i did not warm up properly, or cool down and stretch appropriately. nothing more.

as far as the correlation between focusing on the lift, and focusing on the muscles... i don't get it. squatting your body weight is squatting your body weight, no matter how or on what you are concentrating.

soldier4242

If you are using good form then you are focusing on the correct muscles for any given exercise so I am not really understanding what you mean.

There is a difference between moving weight and working muscles. Doing both well is the sign of an advanced lifter.

Moving weight is the method we use to force our muscles to work. If you have proper form and you are consistent with your workouts then you are doing both well. The formula is Good Diet, Consistent Workouts with good form, adequate rest. There are no other ingredients.

Fr3shStrt

Just a question: if you are throwing weight around rather than focusing on the muscle contraction, could it be the weight isn't heavy enough?

3foldchord

Moving weight is the method we use to force our muscles to work. If you have proper form and you are consistent with your workouts then you are doing both well. The formula is Good Diet, Consistent Workouts with good form, adequate rest. There are no other ingredients.

I think I may have figured part of it out... I think the OP and a few here are separating "good form" and "controlled movements".. maybe.
But I always thought 'controlled movements' IS part of me having good form.

phjorg1

This entire thread makes me sad. People actually taking the op seriously.. Lol

delicious_cocktail

I think that anyone who dismisses the connection between thoughts, nerves, and muscles is not as smart as they'd like to pretend.

I'm with you OP. I know what you mean and you're right.

LiftAllThePizzas

Oh, I see now. I thought this was just the natural progression of learning a skill and didn't realize it's something that needs to even be mentioned. Like when you learn to dive, you first are just worried about how far you're rotating so that you don't land painfully on your back or belly, and then once you have those down you start paying attention to whether or not your toes are pointed and all the other little details that go from functional to pretty. It's like that with anything, once you practice enough it becomes automatic and your conscious mind is freed up to focus on finer details, and once you've mastered that level of detail you can move on to the next layer of detail, etc.

As far as using different muscles, it sounds like you're using your body as an isolation machine, using the accessory muscles to create a fixed path for the main muscle to work within so that you can maximize the tension/time on it. That sounds useful if your goal is to work that specific muscle. But if your goal was shaping muscles then it doesn't make much sense to use strength training to try to accomplish that.

Hezzietiger1

yep.. that's why i add auxiliary lifts to all my workouts.

kdeaux1959

insightful.