Is there any such thing as carb sensitivity?
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Thank you will take a look0
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MonicaRAmbs wrote: »Despite what you may say, I am correct. If you would only read the science. You are going on very old data. A calorie is not a calorie. I eat a lot of fat and I loose weight but most importantly it removes cravings, gives complete satiety, changes all your cardiac markers, reduces inflammation, stops Diabetes in its tracks. And way more. You have not read or seen any recent conferences have you? Go to U-tube and watch 2016 Metabolic conferences and the scientists Dr. Jeff Voleck, Dr. Agostino, Dr. Steven Phinney, and then read about 150 papers that have come out since 2003. Throw your old books away.
@MonicaRAmbs I hadn't seen that conference but thanls for bringing it up. It looks quite interesting!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J77Bweikiw8 1 -
If someone says you need to join a closed group to get the "right" information, I think that's an obvious tipoff that they are trying to make sure that the information provided doesn't get rebutted with other sources. It's like claiming you should get your only political information from Breitbart.
But if that seems like an open and honest way to approach it, go for it.
The claim that non keto people don't burn fat is obviously ridiculous, though, and I'd like to see one credible recent study (since supposedly recent studies support what was claimed) that shows that people on a deficit but not eating extreme low carb can't burn fat (or will end up burning less body fat, all else controlled and equal). You can become adapted to burning fat more easily and more of it at somewhat higher intensities when exercising, but that doesn't have anything to do with weight loss.8 -
OK thanks0
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lemurcat12 wrote: »If someone says you need to join a closed group to get the "right" information, I think that's an obvious tipoff that they are trying to make sure that the information provided doesn't get rebutted with other sources.
That's absurd. It's suggested to increase the signal-to-noise-ratio.3 -
Given that is was long and lacked paragraph breaks, perhaps (thinking charitably here), some weren't conscious of the claims being made by MonicaRAmbs, so I will recap:MonicaRAmbs wrote: »If you are a sugar burner (your diet is mostly carbohydrate (50% as recommended by the ADA), then you will be unable to loose fat unless you greatly reduce your total calories which will make you so hungry you will eat anything to stop that sensation.
So this poster is claiming that if someone eats around 50% carbs, you can't lose weight without "greatly" reducing total calories. The truth is that you will need a calorie, deficit, of course, it need not be extreme, as claimed, and you will need that deficit no matter what your macros.
The poster also claims that someone who reduces calories enough to lose on a 50% carb diet will be extremely hungry, so hungry that you basically cannot stand it. I think we have a lot of posters here (including me, and I expect psulemon, and cwolfman, and many many many others who have and haven't posted in this discussion) who will say that wasn't at all true for them. Therefore, for MonicaRAmbs to claim this is a matter of fact for all is, again, rather offensive and ridiculous, and anyone who defends it should explain whether those of us saying we weren't hungry on a moderate deficit and 50% (or 55% or 40% or whatever) carbs are lying or what.
Monica goes on:If you are a fat burner, which I am, you will eat 80% fat, 15% protein and 5% carbs.
So this poster is basically claiming that unless you have an extreme low carb diet (5% carbs!) that you won't burn fat. Again, I'd like to see a credible study showing this, as I'm not aware of any, and it's a fact (again) that people easily lose fat without a keto diet.
Skipping some other bits I responded to above.A muffin is more attractive than bacon. Well maybe not more attractive but the science is saying more addictive.
Nope. To the extent one accepts the arguments on food addiction, its either about eating -- food doesn't matter --- or "highly palatable foods" (bacon qualifies, presumably, although the highest scorers ARE mixed fat/sugar or fat/carbs/salt, typically -- point is claiming it's carbs or sugar alone is not what the evidence indicates). Oh, and when it comes to brain responding with excitement, that happens with fat as much as sugar. (There are many studies of this, and it's also discussed in the book Fat, Sugar, Salt.) Latest silliness (IMO) is that cheese is particularly addictive, even.
It's interesting, again, that non low carbers accept low carb as one possible good diet for health and weight loss, and the low carbers (the extreme ones, anyway) want to argue that it's the Only True Choice for health, etc., and that they need a closed space to spread the word without persecution (persecution being claims that other diets also can be just as healthy and work for weight loss).
Fabulous.7 -
courtneyfabulous wrote: »Sweet foods make me hungry too. It could be the blood sugar spike may release hunger hormones? I don't know exactly but it happens to me too.If you just wait and drink some water it helps- and of course avoid high sugar foods.
Not sure if that's what carb sensitivity is but might be.
When it used to happen to me the sugar cravings did pass in 45 minutes to an hour. I would try to stay busy until it passed.1 -
AngeleyesJo wrote: »Wow that is very interesting information thank you, what can I replace potatoes with in a meal?
Many fairy tales are interesting...there's not much actual truth in that great wall of text...4 -
AngeleyesJo wrote: »I think my meals could be a but carb heavy and my snacks sweet, maybe just need to adjust my diet but not sure how?
Research it before you do. Sometimes little adjustments help. Some people are unaffected by sugar spikes and dips. But if you are then you will pretty much be aware that eating sugary products makes you want more soon after eating it.
(Edited Typo)0 -
MonicaRAmbs wrote: »Despite what you may say, I am correct. If you would only read the science. You are going on very old data. A calorie is not a calorie. I eat a lot of fat and I loose weight but most importantly it removes cravings, gives complete satiety, changes all your cardiac markers, reduces inflammation, stops Diabetes in its tracks. And way more. You have not read or seen any recent conferences have you? Go to U-tube and watch 2016 Metabolic conferences and the scientists Dr. Jeff Voleck, Dr. Agostino, Dr. Steven Phinney, and then read about 150 papers that have come out since 2003. Throw your old books away.
Why don't all vegetarians have diabetes and whatnot if what you say is true...
I'm substantially veggie and eat a lot of carbs...nothing you said is true...I lost 40 Lbs pretty easily...I don't have diabetes or blood glucose issues, etc...I didn't have to tank my diet to lose weight either as you suggest...I lost my weight about 4 years ago and did so eating around 2200-2300 calories...I eat 3,000 plus in maintenance.
Typical keto evangelism and fear mongering...
ETA: if you're going to go keto, I'd highly recommend consulting with your doctor..despite what the ketoangelicals claim, there are health risks associated with low carb and keto diets. For one, uric acid levels will rise which may or may not be an issue...it would be a huge issue for me. Keto doesn't cure everything under the sun...6 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »AngeleyesJo wrote: »Wow that is very interesting information thank you, what can I replace potatoes with in a meal?
Here is the low carb group. Instead of potatoes they eat larger portions of veggies and add more oil, avocados, cheese, sour cream.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/394-low-carber-daily-forum-the-lcd-group
Some also eat potatoes - and everything else - within their carb allowance. 100g of potato is 18g carb and 2g fiber which can fit in all but the lowest of carb limits. Smaller amounts of higher carb vegetables, beans and starches, like potatoes, can be paired with lower carb foods. For example, I frequently eat roasted potatoes, onions and broccoli in the winter - I just make sure there's more broccoli than potatoes in the mix.
My advise (for what it's worth) before cutting out whole foods you enjoy just because "high carb" look at the macros and see if you can fit smaller, but still satisfying amounts in your diet.
I concur. I don't have trouble with all carbs. I developed issues with refined flour and sugary items at a certain point/age in my life. Once I switched to lower carb and learned how to eat low glycemic combinations I was fine.
It is a fallacy to assume everyone on low carb only eats meat and fat. I love potatoes and feel very satiated after eating them. But I leave the skin on and eat them with a protein and a vegetable to make them lower glycemic.
As a result of lowering carbs and upping healthy fats, I have been able to improve my health, vitality, and energy level. Incidentally I actually have bumped my daily maintenance calorie level UP about 300 calories without gaining weight because I feel better and have a higher TDEE than I did before.
Ya, I feel much better after reducing foods with flour, which make me sleepy. I find potatoes very satiating. I reduced carbs overall but am eating more fruit.3 -
MonicaRAmbs wrote: »Despite what you may say, I am correct. If you would only read the science. You are going on very old data. A calorie is not a calorie. I eat a lot of fat and I loose weight but most importantly it removes cravings, gives complete satiety, changes all your cardiac markers, reduces inflammation, stops Diabetes in its tracks. And way more. You have not read or seen any recent conferences have you? Go to U-tube and watch 2016 Metabolic conferences and the scientists Dr. Jeff Voleck, Dr. Agostino, Dr. Steven Phinney, and then read about 150 papers that have come out since 2003. Throw your old books away.
Minica,
A calorie is a calorie as to weight loss. Nutrition is a whole different subjrct.
You keep mentioning all this research but post nothing to back up your claims. Please post links to what you're talking about because otherwise it's like taking shots in the dark.
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cwolfman13 wrote: »MonicaRAmbs wrote: »Despite what you may say, I am correct. If you would only read the science. You are going on very old data. A calorie is not a calorie. I eat a lot of fat and I loose weight but most importantly it removes cravings, gives complete satiety, changes all your cardiac markers, reduces inflammation, stops Diabetes in its tracks. And way more. You have not read or seen any recent conferences have you? Go to U-tube and watch 2016 Metabolic conferences and the scientists Dr. Jeff Voleck, Dr. Agostino, Dr. Steven Phinney, and then read about 150 papers that have come out since 2003. Throw your old books away.
... Typical keto evangelism and fear mongering...
...if you're going to go keto, I'd highly recommend consulting with your doctor..despite what the ketoangelicals claim, there are health risks associated with low carb and keto diets. For one, uric acid levels will rise which may or may not be an issue...it would be a huge issue for me. Keto doesn't cure everything under the sun...
I'm kind of disappointed and didn't expect the bolded kind of a response. Being overweight and not being able to lose is really rough on the self esteem.
People who finally break through, are successgul blunting and getting free from strong cravings, and who feel better on LCHF are going to shout it from the rooftops. If it doesn't apply or the person hates the diet or can't sustain, then it really isn't a big loss. I tried keto for a month and chose not to stay on it.
During the month my stomach flattened out and my health made a turn around. After the keto induction I switched to a lower carb diet, but one that is not too low for me.
And FYI @Lemur Cat... People are forced to go into closed groups to avoid the misunderstandings on the general forums and grief that they get from high carb enthusiasts saying that there is no such thing as carb cravings or difficulties with sugar for anyone on the planet (okay I'm exaggerating). But it isn't because of anything nefarious.
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Deb, your TDEE does not automatically rise just from feeling better. The reason you were not losing weight before is because you were miscalculating and/or not moving as much. There is no magic in macro split when it comes to weight loss. Now you are able to lose weight because you're eating at a deficit.AlabasterVerve wrote: »AngeleyesJo wrote: »Wow that is very interesting information thank you, what can I replace potatoes with in a meal?
Here is the low carb group. Instead of potatoes they eat larger portions of veggies and add more oil, avocados, cheese, sour cream.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/394-low-carber-daily-forum-the-lcd-group
Some also eat potatoes - and everything else - within their carb allowance. 100g of potato is 18g carb and 2g fiber which can fit in all but the lowest of carb limits. Smaller amounts of higher carb vegetables, beans and starches, like potatoes, can be paired with lower carb foods. For example, I frequently eat roasted potatoes, onions and broccoli in the winter - I just make sure there's more broccoli than potatoes in the mix.
My advise (for what it's worth) before cutting out whole foods you enjoy just because "high carb" look at the macros and see if you can fit smaller, but still satisfying amounts in your diet.
I concur. I don't have trouble with all carbs. I developed issues with refined flour and sugary items at a certain point/age in my life. Once I switched to lower carb and learned how to eat low glycemic combinations I was fine.
It is a fallacy to assume everyone on low carb only eats meat and fat. I love potatoes and feel very satiated after eating them. But I leave the skin on and eat them with a protein and a vegetable to make them lower glycemic.
As a result of lowering carbs and upping healthy fats, I have been able to improve my health, vitality, and energy level. Incidentally I actually have bumped my daily maintenance calorie level UP about 300 calories without gaining weight because I feel better and have a higher TDEE than I did before.
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AngeleyesJo wrote: »I think my meals could be a but carb heavy and my snacks sweet, maybe just need to adjust my diet but not sure how?
Angel, you would adjust macros in your meals for satiety only. Macro adjustment does not directly cause weight loss. It's the dietary plan that keeps you full enough to stay in a calorie deficit that does.1 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »MonicaRAmbs wrote: »Despite what you may say, I am correct. If you would only read the science. You are going on very old data. A calorie is not a calorie. I eat a lot of fat and I loose weight but most importantly it removes cravings, gives complete satiety, changes all your cardiac markers, reduces inflammation, stops Diabetes in its tracks. And way more. You have not read or seen any recent conferences have you? Go to U-tube and watch 2016 Metabolic conferences and the scientists Dr. Jeff Voleck, Dr. Agostino, Dr. Steven Phinney, and then read about 150 papers that have come out since 2003. Throw your old books away.
... Typical keto evangelism and fear mongering...
...if you're going to go keto, I'd highly recommend consulting with your doctor..despite what the ketoangelicals claim, there are health risks associated with low carb and keto diets. For one, uric acid levels will rise which may or may not be an issue...it would be a huge issue for me. Keto doesn't cure everything under the sun...
I'm kind of disappointed and didn't expect the bolded kind of a response. Being overweight and not being able to lose is really rough on the self esteem.
People who finally break through, are successgul blunting and getting free from strong cravings, and who feel better on LCHF are going to shout it from the rooftops. If it doesn't apply or the person hates the diet or can't sustain, then it really isn't a big loss. I tried keto for a month and chose not to stay on it.
During the month my stomach flattened out and my health made a turn around. After the keto induction I switched to a lower carb diet, but one that is not too low for me.
And FYI @Lemur Cat... People are forced to go into closed groups to avoid the misunderstandings on the general forums and grief that they get from high carb enthusiasts saying that there is no such thing as carb cravings or difficulties with sugar for anyone on the planet (okay I'm exaggerating). But it isn't because of anything nefarious.
Does reading "If you are a sugar burner (your diet is mostly carbohydrate (50% as recommended by the ADA), then you will be unable to loose fat unless you greatly reduce your total calories which will make you so hungry you will eat anything to stop that sensation." exactly as is written there sound like a misunderstanding to you?4 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »If someone says you need to join a closed group to get the "right" information, I think that's an obvious tipoff that they are trying to make sure that the information provided doesn't get rebutted with other sources. It's like claiming you should get your only political information from Breitbart.
But if that seems like an open and honest way to approach it, go for it.
The claim that non keto people don't burn fat is obviously ridiculous, though, and I'd like to see one credible recent study (since supposedly recent studies support what was claimed) that shows that people on a deficit but not eating extreme low carb can't burn fat (or will end up burning less body fat, all else controlled and equal). You can become adapted to burning fat more easily and more of it at somewhat higher intensities when exercising, but that doesn't have anything to do with weight loss.
So let me first state, there are specific reasons for why it's a closed group that I will not go into. Being closed doesn't necessarily mean all information is wrong. Being with like minded people, while beneficial for motivation may not lend itself to the other side of the argument. Personally, just like avatars and time frame on a forum, I would not use that as an argument for or against a particular way of eating.
If there is going to be arguments or discussions, we should do it with actual data. There is no surprise that if we want to discuss if Keto or very low carb is more beneficial for weight loss, I would suggest the below discussion on Kevin Halls study and one from 2006 done at Arizona State, under isocaloric, euprotein conditions. I also posted Dr. Layne Norton's discussion on Keto diets. He holds a PhD in nutritional science.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10436946/are-all-calories-equal-part-2-kevins-halls-new-study#latest
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/83/5/1055.long
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHXP04ipDx8
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MonicaRAmbs wrote: »As for Diabetes, we have a world wide epidemic and its going to bankrupt the health care system in many countries including the USA. I don't know where you live but please look up this data on the WHO website. I am a nurse and this affects 70% of the population. 40% are diabetic and 30% are pre diabetic. I wish people really would not sound off without the data. Read "The art and science of low carb living" by the scientist who have studied and published papers. Read Gary Taubes book "Why we get fat" and "Good calories bad calories", Read Nina Tiecholz book "The Big Fat Surprise", Then go to pub med and type in Dr. Jeff Voleck name and read the science. Its biology people. Plain old biology. This has been known for some time but not a lot of doctors have any nutrition education. And dieticians only go by what their license allows. Check out Jimmy Moores books Keto Clarity and Cholesterol Clarity and his podcast listing many scientist and doctors.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs312/en/
According the the who, 8.5% of people have diabetes world wide. And I couldn't find anything on prediabetes, so if someone has a fact sheet for prediabetes from the WHO, I would be interested.
I would suggest that you expand your scope of knowledge outside of members who have only devoted their career to low carb. Gary Taubes is a joke and his theories are getting debunked often.
Lets also take into consideration that the healthiest country in the world is the Blue Zone. Where carbs sit around 70% or a bit more. Activity levels are very high and obesity is low. The consumption of animal proteins is also very low. And at best, the recent study out of Denmark (or Norway) would suggest that at best, consumption of SFA at 15% of your daily intake isn't harmful. Something, I suspect is commonly surpassed by many people following Keto. And then we can also look into all the studies plant based foods and the benefits from them. Can anyone really sit here and tell me that foods like, quinoa, legumes, sweet potatoes, rice, etc.. are bad for me? Hell, I bet I have a higher TDEE than many on this board (outside the endurance athletes). I maintain at 3000 calories. I eat 250g of carbs on average. I dropped 50 lbs and seen nothing but improvements to my health and body composition (validated by multiple blood test and metabolic panels).
What is the biggest problem? Calories, especially when you combine fats, carbs and salt. Why, because they are not filling, as the OP has experienced, and they are highly caloric. This makes it difficult to stay within a reasonable amount of calories.
Then, lets also look at protein at general, where getting 10% or 15% of your intake from protein is very low. This would make it very difficult to maintain your current lean body mass, even with progressive overload training. And this is why when I train people following LCHF/Keto members, I generally get protein up to respectable levels to address their goals. I also modify the timing of nutrients, which I implement some of the ideas from TKD/CKD to ensure protein synthesis is maximized.1 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »MonicaRAmbs wrote: »Despite what you may say, I am correct. If you would only read the science. You are going on very old data. A calorie is not a calorie. I eat a lot of fat and I loose weight but most importantly it removes cravings, gives complete satiety, changes all your cardiac markers, reduces inflammation, stops Diabetes in its tracks. And way more. You have not read or seen any recent conferences have you? Go to U-tube and watch 2016 Metabolic conferences and the scientists Dr. Jeff Voleck, Dr. Agostino, Dr. Steven Phinney, and then read about 150 papers that have come out since 2003. Throw your old books away.
... Typical keto evangelism and fear mongering...
...if you're going to go keto, I'd highly recommend consulting with your doctor..despite what the ketoangelicals claim, there are health risks associated with low carb and keto diets. For one, uric acid levels will rise which may or may not be an issue...it would be a huge issue for me. Keto doesn't cure everything under the sun...
I'm kind of disappointed and didn't expect the bolded kind of a response. Being overweight and not being able to lose is really rough on the self esteem.
People who finally break through, are successgul blunting and getting free from strong cravings, and who feel better on LCHF are going to shout it from the rooftops. If it doesn't apply or the person hates the diet or can't sustain, then it really isn't a big loss. I tried keto for a month and chose not to stay on it.
During the month my stomach flattened out and my health made a turn around. After the keto induction I switched to a lower carb diet, but one that is not too low for me.
And FYI @Lemur Cat... People are forced to go into closed groups to avoid the misunderstandings on the general forums and grief that they get from high carb enthusiasts saying that there is no such thing as carb cravings or difficulties with sugar for anyone on the planet (okay I'm exaggerating). But it isn't because of anything nefarious.
There's a big difference between saying, "X,Y,or Z worked for me" and spewing a wall of nonsense and carbs are evil fear mongering. If carbs were so evil, pretty much every vegetarian and vegan on the planet would be having major health issues...I'm not 100% vegetarian, but I am substantially so...I wouldn't call myself a carb enthusiast necessarily...it just so happens that things that grow in the ground are carbohydrates...you know, veggies, fruit, pulses, potatoes and other root vegetables, etc...the "bad stuff"
Direct quote..."If you are a sugar burner (your diet is mostly carbohydrate (50% as recommended by the ADA), then you will be unable to loose fat unless you greatly reduce your total calories which will make you so hungry you will eat anything to stop that sensation."
There is no misunderstanding here...this is pure nonsense...this isn't saying, "Hey...keto worked for me"...this is spreading misinformation which many keto followers seem to do on a regular basis. I have no issue with someone being excited about a WOE that works for them...I do take issue with statements like the one I quoted..
Many keto followers also tend to make outrageous medical claims and fail to acknowledge that the diet itself can cause other health issues...so there's also that.
ETA: as strong cravings go, I generally crave cheese and other dairy...I don't typically go off the rails with my curried lentils (I couldn't anyway...doesn't take a whole lot to fill you up). Personally, I think the whole carbs cause cravings is equating carbs with junk food...in which case, most of that stuff is also high fat, not just carbs...but that always seems to not get mentioned...6 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »MonicaRAmbs wrote: »Despite what you may say, I am correct. If you would only read the science. You are going on very old data. A calorie is not a calorie. I eat a lot of fat and I loose weight but most importantly it removes cravings, gives complete satiety, changes all your cardiac markers, reduces inflammation, stops Diabetes in its tracks. And way more. You have not read or seen any recent conferences have you? Go to U-tube and watch 2016 Metabolic conferences and the scientists Dr. Jeff Voleck, Dr. Agostino, Dr. Steven Phinney, and then read about 150 papers that have come out since 2003. Throw your old books away.
... Typical keto evangelism and fear mongering...
...if you're going to go keto, I'd highly recommend consulting with your doctor..despite what the ketoangelicals claim, there are health risks associated with low carb and keto diets. For one, uric acid levels will rise which may or may not be an issue...it would be a huge issue for me. Keto doesn't cure everything under the sun...
I'm kind of disappointed and didn't expect the bolded kind of a response. Being overweight and not being able to lose is really rough on the self esteem.
People who finally break through, are successgul blunting and getting free from strong cravings, and who feel better on LCHF are going to shout it from the rooftops. If it doesn't apply or the person hates the diet or can't sustain, then it really isn't a big loss. I tried keto for a month and chose not to stay on it.
During the month my stomach flattened out and my health made a turn around. After the keto induction I switched to a lower carb diet, but one that is not too low for me.
And FYI @Lemur Cat... People are forced to go into closed groups to avoid the misunderstandings on the general forums and grief that they get from high carb enthusiasts saying that there is no such thing as carb cravings or difficulties with sugar for anyone on the planet (okay I'm exaggerating). But it isn't because of anything nefarious.
Given that "oh, we can't stand it here in the open forums" is the usual response to "no, keto isn't the only way to lose or the healthiest of all possible diets -- it can be done healthfully, but of course many other diets can be done just as healthfully, and it can also be done non-healthfully," then I think it is.
Note that Monica asserted not that low carb is a good choice for some (we all agree about that, although we might disagree as to why), but that one can't lose fat (or lose without being miserable and starving) on 50% carbs. Instead, everyone needs to do keto to burn fat. I think that's obviously wrong and indefensible.
I think people can crave all kinds of foods, so can people struggle with cravings particularly for sugary foods? Sure. My objection to the "carb craving" thing is that most of the time it's carbs plus fat, and it makes no sense to equate "carbs" with junk food, which is what is usually happening.
In this specific thread, OP said that she had no problems after her dinner (that was low fat and contained carbs), but that she felt hungry (I wouldn't assume this means "cravings," based on what she said) after a muffin (high fat and high carb, usually). Based on that people are assuming she needs to go low carb?
(If she wants to try low carb or cutting out sugary snacks -- something different, for the record -- I'd have no issue with that, but "I feel hungry after a muffin" bringing out the "you can't lose fat on a non law carb diet, and also you will probably get all sorts of terrible diseases" is false information, and that needs to be pointed out.)
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