Is there any such thing as carb sensitivity?
Replies
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AngeleyesJo wrote: »I think my meals could be a but carb heavy and my snacks sweet, maybe just need to adjust my diet but not sure how?
Angel, you would adjust macros in your meals for satiety only. Macro adjustment does not directly cause weight loss. It's the dietary plan that keeps you full enough to stay in a calorie deficit that does.
This is what I'm hoping to achieve since I've been having wobbles with blood sugar like constant hunger shakes weakness feeling sick1 -
Being with like minded people, while beneficial for motivation may not lend itself to the other side of the argument. Personally, just like avatars and time frame on a forum, I would not use that as an argument for or against a particular way of eating.
Nor would I. And, if you pay attention, you will note that this is how the discussion is playing out (as always):
Me and some others: low carb is great if that's what appeals to you, but if it doesn't there are plenty of other equally good ways to eat healthfully and lose weight. Good nutrition isn't about macros, but what foods you choose within those macros (although I'd recommend getting sufficient protein, of course). This is not really debatable, but if someone wants to object I have plenty of links to credible sources. For example, the WHO, the most recent US Dietary Guidelines, and my personal favorite, the Harvard Nutrition site. I have linked all these and many others many times, so to suggest that my comments lack data to support them (when I pointed to specific problems with the post I was criticizing) is rather unfair.
Oh, the contrary argument: low carb is the One True Healthy Diet, and you need it to lose fat (I went through this claim upthread).
Therefore, this supports my interpretation, which is that the only people arguing AGAINST a particular way of eating (non keto) is Monica and those who have jumped in to defend her inaccurate claims,
I agree that the citation to Dr. Hall's study is useful, but let's not forget what the claim is here: that fat loss requires low carb, and that anyone (ANYONE) eating at a deficit with a 50% carb diet CANNOT lose without being miserably hungry. That's evidentially untrue even without a study unless those of us who lost without doing keto are lying about not being miserably hungry when doing it.5 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »If someone says you need to join a closed group to get the "right" information, I think that's an obvious tipoff that they are trying to make sure that the information provided doesn't get rebutted with other sources. It's like claiming you should get your only political information from Breitbart.
But if that seems like an open and honest way to approach it, go for it.
The claim that non keto people don't burn fat is obviously ridiculous, though, and I'd like to see one credible recent study (since supposedly recent studies support what was claimed) that shows that people on a deficit but not eating extreme low carb can't burn fat (or will end up burning less body fat, all else controlled and equal). You can become adapted to burning fat more easily and more of it at somewhat higher intensities when exercising, but that doesn't have anything to do with weight loss.
Not really. There is a wealth of information on low carb diets in the Low Carber Daily group. I suppose you could call it the "right" information is you mean it current research. Those in the group tend to reasearch LCHF a LOT more than those who are on the main boards, which makes sense it is a part of their lives. The information there is usually more accurate and in depth (the good and the bad) than what you would find elsewhere.
No conspiracy.
I agree that people in higher carb diets do burn fat when eating at a deficit. There's no denying that. They may not burn as much during aerobic exercise but it isn't a large difference. http://www.vespapower.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Volek-Metabolism-FASTER-2015-Final.pdf0 -
MonicaRAmbs wrote: »As for Diabetes, we have a world wide epidemic and its going to bankrupt the health care system in many countries including the USA. I don't know where you live but please look up this data on the WHO website. I am a nurse and this affects 70% of the population. 40% are diabetic and 30% are pre diabetic. I wish people really would not sound off without the data. Read "The art and science of low carb living" by the scientist who have studied and published papers. Read Gary Taubes book "Why we get fat" and "Good calories bad calories", Read Nina Tiecholz book "The Big Fat Surprise", Then go to pub med and type in Dr. Jeff Voleck name and read the science. Its biology people. Plain old biology. This has been known for some time but not a lot of doctors have any nutrition education. And dieticians only go by what their license allows. Check out Jimmy Moores books Keto Clarity and Cholesterol Clarity and his podcast listing many scientist and doctors.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs312/en/
According the the who, 8.5% of people have diabetes world wide. And I couldn't find anything on prediabetes, so if someone has a fact sheet for prediabetes from the WHO, I would be interested.
I would suggest that you expand your scope of knowledge outside of members who have only devoted their career to low carb. Gary Taubes is a joke and his theories are getting debunked often.
Lets also take into consideration that the healthiest country in the world is the Blue Zone. Where carbs sit around 70% or a bit more. Activity levels are very high and obesity is low. The consumption of animal proteins is also very low. And at best, the recent study out of Denmark (or Norway) would suggest that at best, consumption of SFA at 15% of your daily intake isn't harmful. Something, I suspect is commonly surpassed by many people following Keto. And then we can also look into all the studies plant based foods and the benefits from them. Can anyone really sit here and tell me that foods like, quinoa, legumes, sweet potatoes, rice, etc.. are bad for me? Hell, I bet I have a higher TDEE than many on this board (outside the endurance athletes). I maintain at 3000 calories. I eat 250g of carbs on average. I dropped 50 lbs and seen nothing but improvements to my health and body composition (validated by multiple blood test and metabolic panels).
What is the biggest problem? Calories, especially when you combine fats, carbs and salt. Why, because they are not filling, as the OP has experienced, and they are highly caloric. This makes it difficult to stay within a reasonable amount of calories.
Then, lets also look at protein at general, where getting 10% or 15% of your intake from protein is very low. This would make it very difficult to maintain your current lean body mass, even with progressive overload training. And this is why when I train people following LCHF/Keto members, I generally get protein up to respectable levels to address their goals. I also modify the timing of nutrients, which I implement some of the ideas from TKD/CKD to ensure protein synthesis is maximized.
I agree with this post, but since you seemed to be suggesting that others were not countering the bad information with facts, I think it's worth noting that I made some of the same points earlier, especially about Blue Zones and traditional diets, which always seems to be one of the most compelling arguments against the keto is the healthiest diet claim or the claim that macro percentage matters. It's actually why I haven't even tried keto, although I am occasionally curious, since it seems significant to me that no traditional human diets seem to result in consistent ketosis (but I wouldn't use this to argue that it's unhealthy to those who find it beneficial, since I see no compelling evidence that it is).
Anyway, this is what I said upthread: "There are many traditional diets that are quite high carb (higher carb and lower fat than the SAD) where T2D is so rare as to be basically non-existent, so your claim that eating carbs causes diabetes (in addition to not being supported by the ADA) is inconsistent with the evidence. Eating a poor diet (usually high fat as well as high carb, and poor choices for both) tends to correlate with being overweight, though, and that plus risk factors can lead to T2D, but that is not relevant to the this thread that I can see."7 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »MonicaRAmbs wrote: »Despite what you may say, I am correct. If you would only read the science. You are going on very old data. A calorie is not a calorie. I eat a lot of fat and I loose weight but most importantly it removes cravings, gives complete satiety, changes all your cardiac markers, reduces inflammation, stops Diabetes in its tracks. And way more. You have not read or seen any recent conferences have you? Go to U-tube and watch 2016 Metabolic conferences and the scientists Dr. Jeff Voleck, Dr. Agostino, Dr. Steven Phinney, and then read about 150 papers that have come out since 2003. Throw your old books away.
Why don't all vegetarians have diabetes and whatnot if what you say is true...
I'm substantially veggie and eat a lot of carbs...nothing you said is true...I lost 40 Lbs pretty easily...I don't have diabetes or blood glucose issues, etc...I didn't have to tank my diet to lose weight either as you suggest...I lost my weight about 4 years ago and did so eating around 2200-2300 calories...I eat 3,000 plus in maintenance.
Typical keto evangelism and fear mongering...
ETA: if you're going to go keto, I'd highly recommend consulting with your doctor..despite what the ketoangelicals claim, there are health risks associated with low carb and keto diets. For one, uric acid levels will rise which may or may not be an issue...it would be a huge issue for me. Keto doesn't cure everything under the sun...
The uric acid issues are disputed. Some have found they rise during the the first 6 to 12 weeks while becoming fat adapted and ketones are rising, but it falls back to, or below, normal after that. Others found there is no rise in uric acid but only a decrease. I'm assuming you have found other studies that state uric acid levels rose and stayed elevated beyond fat adaption?
High fat diets are dangerous for those who have fat malabsorption issues, though rare.0 -
AngeleyesJo wrote: »AngeleyesJo wrote: »I think my meals could be a but carb heavy and my snacks sweet, maybe just need to adjust my diet but not sure how?
Angel, you would adjust macros in your meals for satiety only. Macro adjustment does not directly cause weight loss. It's the dietary plan that keeps you full enough to stay in a calorie deficit that does.
This is what I'm hoping to achieve since I've been having wobbles with blood sugar like constant hunger shakes weakness feeling sick
Maybe try logging when you are feeling that way and then looking over it. Could be meal timing, although I'd probably try including protein with all snacks and meals (the muffin would have been low protein, probably). Also, like ksharma, I am find with carbs in general but do find baked goods particularly non filling (although they don't make me feel hungry). They might end up being a snack that doesn't work for you.2 -
AngeleyesJo wrote: »AngeleyesJo wrote: »I think my meals could be a but carb heavy and my snacks sweet, maybe just need to adjust my diet but not sure how?
Angel, you would adjust macros in your meals for satiety only. Macro adjustment does not directly cause weight loss. It's the dietary plan that keeps you full enough to stay in a calorie deficit that does.
This is what I'm hoping to achieve since I've been having wobbles with blood sugar like constant hunger shakes weakness feeling sick
Look up reactive hypoglycemia. I had this for years before changing my diet. What you desribe fits it well.1 -
Really? By the bolded, I am sure you don't....MonicaRAmbs wrote: »Despite what you may say, I am correct. If you would only read the science. You are going on very old data. A calorie is not a calorie. I eat a lot of fat and I loose weight but most importantly it removes cravings, gives complete satiety, changes all your cardiac markers, reduces inflammation, stops Diabetes in its tracks. And way more. You have not read or seen any recent conferences have you? Go to U-tube and watch 2016 Metabolic conferences and the scientists Dr. Jeff Voleck, Dr. Agostino, Dr. Steven Phinney, and then read about 150 papers that have come out since 2003. Throw your old books away.
What do you think a calorie is?
A calorie is a unit of measurement. Saying a calorie isn't a calorie is just like saying an inch isn't an inch. Anyone with basic science knowledge gets that. Did your new science references tell you a unit of measure isn't a unit of measure? What is next? An inch isn't an inch?
YouTube is NOT a credible source of information. And "old books"? This speaks volumes. What if I told you there are scientists, dieticians and personal trainers on this site? You wouldn't know it as they don't broadcast that. I can at least read what they type...
No, it's because many choose to believe what they want to even if they have the scientific proof slap them in their faces. No one is "forced" to do anything.
People are forced to go into closed groups to avoid the misunderstandings on the general forums and grief that they get from high carb enthusiasts saying that there is no such thing as carb cravings or difficulties with sugar for anyone on the planet (okay I'm exaggerating). But it isn't because of anything nefarious.
And one can simply NOT increase TDEE with low carb. Total Daily Energy (there's the key word) Expenditure. You increase TDE by increasing your activity and exercise, not from what you eat. *sigh*
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Not really. There is a wealth of information on low carb diets in the Low Carber Daily group. I suppose you could call it the "right" information is you mean it current research. Those in the group tend to reasearch LCHF a LOT more than those who are on the main boards, which makes sense it is a part of their lives. The information there is usually more accurate and in depth (the good and the bad) than what you would find elsewhere.
I think this is unlikely, since it's self-selected to have a particular POV, Doesn't mean it's wrong, but I find it likely to be biased and distorted -- again, like a site of political junkies who have only one viewpoint. The information from some of the favored low carb sources is interesting and worth looking into, but the fact that there is good information to the contrary and experts who don't agree would ideally be considered and discussed and have advocates too, if the desire was really to find the truth or understand the debates and not just preach to the converted.
I expect the thread is helpful with motivation and also answering questions. (I tend to suggest that new low carbers go there, especially when they have questions about how to do it or think they should cut fat and eat only high protein or some such.4 -
I did do the slimming world diet previous to calorie counting, foods like potatoes, pasta, rice, etc were free foods as they called them and I'm wondering if it now affects me?0
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Not really. There is a wealth of information on low carb diets in the Low Carber Daily group. I suppose you could call it the "right" information is you mean it current research. Those in the group tend to reasearch LCHF a LOT more than those who are on the main boards, which makes sense it is a part of their lives. The information there is usually more accurate and in depth (the good and the bad) than what you would find elsewhere.
I think this is unlikely, since it's self-selected to have a particular POV, Doesn't mean it's wrong, but I find it likely to be biased and distorted -- again, like a site of political junkies who have only one viewpoint. The information from some of the favored low carb sources is interesting and worth looking into, but the fact that there is good information to the contrary and experts who don't agree would ideally be considered and discussed and have advocates too, if the desire was really to find the truth or understand the debates and not just preach to the converted.
I expect the thread is helpful with motivation and also answering questions. (I tend to suggest that new low carbers go there, especially when they have questions about how to do it or think they should cut fat and eat only high protein or some such.
I still disagree. Most of the information is in favour of low carb but the opposing arguments are there. In fact there is a discussion on Ornish right now, and I don't believe anyone has said his high carb low fat ideas are wrong for everyone (I could be mistaken - I haven't looked at it in a while) but rather there is an acknowledgement that his low fat diet may be right for some people. Plus an agreement that both Ornish and LCHF followers tend to skip sugar and grains so perhaps that could be the issue for those people.
But yes, The LCD group is excellent for motivation and support.1 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »MonicaRAmbs wrote: »Despite what you may say, I am correct. If you would only read the science. You are going on very old data. A calorie is not a calorie. I eat a lot of fat and I loose weight but most importantly it removes cravings, gives complete satiety, changes all your cardiac markers, reduces inflammation, stops Diabetes in its tracks. And way more. You have not read or seen any recent conferences have you? Go to U-tube and watch 2016 Metabolic conferences and the scientists Dr. Jeff Voleck, Dr. Agostino, Dr. Steven Phinney, and then read about 150 papers that have come out since 2003. Throw your old books away.
Why don't all vegetarians have diabetes and whatnot if what you say is true...
I'm substantially veggie and eat a lot of carbs...nothing you said is true...I lost 40 Lbs pretty easily...I don't have diabetes or blood glucose issues, etc...I didn't have to tank my diet to lose weight either as you suggest...I lost my weight about 4 years ago and did so eating around 2200-2300 calories...I eat 3,000 plus in maintenance.
Typical keto evangelism and fear mongering...
ETA: if you're going to go keto, I'd highly recommend consulting with your doctor..despite what the ketoangelicals claim, there are health risks associated with low carb and keto diets. For one, uric acid levels will rise which may or may not be an issue...it would be a huge issue for me. Keto doesn't cure everything under the sun...
The uric acid issues are disputed. Some have found they rise during the the first 6 to 12 weeks while becoming fat adapted and ketones are rising, but it falls back to, or below, normal after that. Others found there is no rise in uric acid but only a decrease. I'm assuming you have found other studies that state uric acid levels rose and stayed elevated beyond fat adaption?
High fat diets are dangerous for those who have fat malabsorption issues, though rare.
I have read plenty and experienced it myself...I've had gout since I was in my mid twenties...it was diagnosed when I was doing keto to drop a few vanity pounds back then...I just woke up one night and thought I had broken my foot (I get it in my ankle)....my uric acid was through the roof as evidenced by my blood work (which was fine previously) and my first gout attack...I know you all dispute anything that might be negative to your WOE though...so no surprise there really...keto cures all! It's like you all just live in your own little echo chamber...it's like the Fox News of dieting.
Gout is one of the primarily reasons I eat substantially vegetarian...I tried early on with MFP to do the whole 1 gram per Lb of LBM of protein thing and was eating a lot of meat...gout flared right away.0 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »MonicaRAmbs wrote: »Despite what you may say, I am correct. If you would only read the science. You are going on very old data. A calorie is not a calorie. I eat a lot of fat and I loose weight but most importantly it removes cravings, gives complete satiety, changes all your cardiac markers, reduces inflammation, stops Diabetes in its tracks. And way more. You have not read or seen any recent conferences have you? Go to U-tube and watch 2016 Metabolic conferences and the scientists Dr. Jeff Voleck, Dr. Agostino, Dr. Steven Phinney, and then read about 150 papers that have come out since 2003. Throw your old books away.
Why don't all vegetarians have diabetes and whatnot if what you say is true...
I'm substantially veggie and eat a lot of carbs...nothing you said is true...I lost 40 Lbs pretty easily...I don't have diabetes or blood glucose issues, etc...I didn't have to tank my diet to lose weight either as you suggest...I lost my weight about 4 years ago and did so eating around 2200-2300 calories...I eat 3,000 plus in maintenance.
Typical keto evangelism and fear mongering...
ETA: if you're going to go keto, I'd highly recommend consulting with your doctor..despite what the ketoangelicals claim, there are health risks associated with low carb and keto diets. For one, uric acid levels will rise which may or may not be an issue...it would be a huge issue for me. Keto doesn't cure everything under the sun...
The uric acid issues are disputed. Some have found they rise during the the first 6 to 12 weeks while becoming fat adapted and ketones are rising, but it falls back to, or below, normal after that. Others found there is no rise in uric acid but only a decrease. I'm assuming you have found other studies that state uric acid levels rose and stayed elevated beyond fat adaption?
High fat diets are dangerous for those who have fat malabsorption issues, though rare.
I have read plenty and experienced it myself...I've had gout since I was in my mid twenties...it was diagnosed when I was doing keto to drop a few vanity pounds back then...I just woke up one night and thought I had broken my foot (I get it in my ankle)....my uric acid was through the roof as evidenced by my blood work (which was fine previously) and my first gout attack...I know you all dispute anything that might be negative to your WOE though...so no surprise there really...keto cures all!
Gout is one of the primarily reasons I eat substantially vegetarian...I tried early on with MFP to do the whole 1 gram per Lb of LBM of protein thing and was eating a lot of meat...gout flared right away.
I'm sorry you have gout. It's no fun. My husband has gout but in his knee. Want to guess how he's treating it and how he ate while losing 20lbs over the last couple of months? Yeah. He went lower carb. Not keto. That's not something he wants to do, but under 150g of carbs on most days. He hasn't had a flare-up since changing his diet to a low fructose, low grain, lower carb diet.
He couldn't do mostly vegetarian since he doesn't like "rabbit food" - his term and not mine. I out eat him in vegetables everyday.
...And I "dispute anything that might be negative to your WOE though...so no surprise there really...keto cures all! It's like you all just live in your own little echo chamber...it's like the Fox News of dieting"? Really?
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cerise_noir wrote: »
Really? By the bolded, I am sure you don't....MonicaRAmbs wrote: »Despite what you may say, I am correct. If you would only read the science. You are going on very old data. A calorie is not a calorie. I eat a lot of fat and I loose weight but most importantly it removes cravings, gives complete satiety, changes all your cardiac markers, reduces inflammation, stops Diabetes in its tracks. And way more. You have not read or seen any recent conferences have you? Go to U-tube and watch 2016 Metabolic conferences and the scientists Dr. Jeff Voleck, Dr. Agostino, Dr. Steven Phinney, and then read about 150 papers that have come out since 2003. Throw your old books away.
What do you think a calorie is?
A calorie is a unit of measurement. Saying a calorie isn't a calorie is just like saying an inch isn't an inch. Anyone with basic science knowledge gets that.
"It's one of those things that I've heard a lot of folks say that, you know people, for some reason or scientists or maybe even the obesity community happens to think that all calories are created equal. I honestly don't know a single reputable scientist who thinks that." -Kevin Hall
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lemurcat12 wrote: »AngeleyesJo wrote: »AngeleyesJo wrote: »I think my meals could be a but carb heavy and my snacks sweet, maybe just need to adjust my diet but not sure how?
Angel, you would adjust macros in your meals for satiety only. Macro adjustment does not directly cause weight loss. It's the dietary plan that keeps you full enough to stay in a calorie deficit that does.
This is what I'm hoping to achieve since I've been having wobbles with blood sugar like constant hunger shakes weakness feeling sick
Maybe try logging when you are feeling that way and then looking over it. Could be meal timing, although I'd probably try including protein with all snacks and meals (the muffin would have been low protein, probably). Also, like ksharma, I am find with carbs in general but do find baked goods particularly non filling (although they don't make me feel hungry). They might end up being a snack that doesn't work for you.
To the bold part - I'm jealous! It stuns me that people can eat baked goods and NOT feel more hungry afterwards. I guess it sounds as odd on the other side, that it makes us feel hungrier.
This is a pattern I've observed in myself since my early teens.
My body does not react to blood sugar spikes the same as yours does, that's for sure.
For me, I need to eat the right ratios to not trigger a blood sugar spike which then makes me hungry. So if I eat carbs, I can often be ok so long as the carb is high fiber. Not always though.
And if it's not high fiber, I *need* protein with it.
The more sugar/carbs I eat at once, the more protein/fiber/fat that I need to offset it. Consequently, I've learned to just limit the amount of sugar/carbs I eat at once bc too much at once means I need a whole lot of other foods to offset that spike. I can have a big appetite, but it's not big enough to want to eat *that* much food at once!
Wow, imagining being able to freely eat carbs without them triggering an appetite increase is blowing my mind bc it's so not what my life has been. I'd be able to eat quite differently and no longer need the adaptations I've leaned.2 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »cerise_noir wrote: »
Really? By the bolded, I am sure you don't....MonicaRAmbs wrote: »Despite what you may say, I am correct. If you would only read the science. You are going on very old data. A calorie is not a calorie. I eat a lot of fat and I loose weight but most importantly it removes cravings, gives complete satiety, changes all your cardiac markers, reduces inflammation, stops Diabetes in its tracks. And way more. You have not read or seen any recent conferences have you? Go to U-tube and watch 2016 Metabolic conferences and the scientists Dr. Jeff Voleck, Dr. Agostino, Dr. Steven Phinney, and then read about 150 papers that have come out since 2003. Throw your old books away.
What do you think a calorie is?
A calorie is a unit of measurement. Saying a calorie isn't a calorie is just like saying an inch isn't an inch. Anyone with basic science knowledge gets that.
"It's one of those things that I've heard a lot of folks say that, you know people, for some reason or scientists or maybe even the obesity community happens to think that all calories are created equal. I honestly don't know a single reputable scientist who thinks that." -Kevin Hall
If "a calorie = a calorie" means all foods are the same, and react the same way in the body (as many people seem to assume, and is normally how it's used in pieces arguing against it), then it's a strawman, and of course almost no one believes it. That's not what it means as used on MFP, though. Therefore, I'd like more context.
If "a calorie = a calorie" means (as used on MFP) that whether you gain, lose, or maintain depends on calories and if you are eating 1500 with a maintenance of 2000 you will lose, regardless of the macros,* then I'd love to hear a good reason from Hall why he wouldn't agree with that. His own studies support it (for example, even in the one finding a slight advantage for very low fat in overall fat loss, projects that after more time they'd end up basically the same).
*Eating adequate protein will, of course, result in better final body composition, especially if you have less to lose and/or are exercising vs. undereating protein, but that's why everyone, including those who say "a calorie is a calorie" mention this and recommend making sure you get enough protein. Again, no one thinks a food is a food or that some don't give your body things that others do not. Claiming otherwise is arguing against a strawman.
Mostly the "a calorie is a calorie" argument is silly, since it's about semantics, but based on Monica's other (misinformed or intentionally inaccurate) claims, I do believe that she was trying to say that any person with a maintenance of 2000 might not lose on 1500 (you need some sort of extreme deficit that leaves you starving) IF you eat a non keto diet. Pretty sure Dr. Hall would find that laughable.3 -
AngeleyesJo wrote: »I did do the slimming world diet previous to calorie counting, foods like potatoes, pasta, rice, etc were free foods as they called them and I'm wondering if it now affects me?
I tolerated carbs perfectly well until I became obese and now - for whatever reason - I don't. I think a good experiment for you (since your meals seem to be nutritious) would be to replace your carb heavy desserts & snacks with lower carb options (nuts, cheese, raw vegetables and dips etc.) and see how you make out. If you're still experiencing problems after that, that's when I'd try a low carb diet.
Unless you like the sound of eating LCHF (low carb, high fat)? If you do jump right on in and try it - it's not for everyone but for those of us who respond particularly well to the diet it's been life changing. Good luck.0 -
Chunkahlunkah wrote: »My body does not react to blood sugar spikes the same as yours does, that's for sure.
For me, I need to eat the right ratios to not trigger a blood sugar spike which then makes me hungry. So if I eat carbs, I can often be ok so long as the carb is high fiber. Not always though. And if it's not high fiber, I *need* protein with it.
The more sugar/carbs I eat at once, the more protein/fiber/fat that I need to offset it. Consequently, I've learned to just limit the amount of sugar/carbs I eat at once bc too much at once means I need a whole lot of other foods to offset that spike. I can have a big appetite, but it's not big enough to want to eat *that* much food at once!
Wow, imagining being able to freely eat carbs without them triggering an appetite increase is blowing my mind bc it's so not what my life has been. I'd be able to eat quite differently and no longer need the adaptations I've leaned.
Let's go back to what OP said, though.
She ate a low fat, moderate to high protein and carb dinner -- fish, veg, potatoes, with little added fat -- and said she felt fine.
Then she ate a sweet muffin -- lots of carbs (some of which is sugar, the rest refined flour) and about half fat, probably -- this is less balanced by protein, but more by fat than the dinner. (The dinner might have had more fiber, too, but not all vegetables are all that high in fiber, so we don't know that.)
I think we need more information to know what's going on, and assuming it's just "carbs" doesn't seem to fit the evidence. That's why I suggested keeping track over time, as well as trying adding protein.2 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »MonicaRAmbs wrote: »Despite what you may say, I am correct. If you would only read the science. You are going on very old data. A calorie is not a calorie. I eat a lot of fat and I loose weight but most importantly it removes cravings, gives complete satiety, changes all your cardiac markers, reduces inflammation, stops Diabetes in its tracks. And way more. You have not read or seen any recent conferences have you? Go to U-tube and watch 2016 Metabolic conferences and the scientists Dr. Jeff Voleck, Dr. Agostino, Dr. Steven Phinney, and then read about 150 papers that have come out since 2003. Throw your old books away.
Why don't all vegetarians have diabetes and whatnot if what you say is true...
I'm substantially veggie and eat a lot of carbs...nothing you said is true...I lost 40 Lbs pretty easily...I don't have diabetes or blood glucose issues, etc...I didn't have to tank my diet to lose weight either as you suggest...I lost my weight about 4 years ago and did so eating around 2200-2300 calories...I eat 3,000 plus in maintenance.
Typical keto evangelism and fear mongering...
ETA: if you're going to go keto, I'd highly recommend consulting with your doctor..despite what the ketoangelicals claim, there are health risks associated with low carb and keto diets. For one, uric acid levels will rise which may or may not be an issue...it would be a huge issue for me. Keto doesn't cure everything under the sun...
The uric acid issues are disputed. Some have found they rise during the the first 6 to 12 weeks while becoming fat adapted and ketones are rising, but it falls back to, or below, normal after that. Others found there is no rise in uric acid but only a decrease. I'm assuming you have found other studies that state uric acid levels rose and stayed elevated beyond fat adaption?
High fat diets are dangerous for those who have fat malabsorption issues, though rare.
I have read plenty and experienced it myself...I've had gout since I was in my mid twenties...it was diagnosed when I was doing keto to drop a few vanity pounds back then...I just woke up one night and thought I had broken my foot (I get it in my ankle)....my uric acid was through the roof as evidenced by my blood work (which was fine previously) and my first gout attack...I know you all dispute anything that might be negative to your WOE though...so no surprise there really...keto cures all!
Gout is one of the primarily reasons I eat substantially vegetarian...I tried early on with MFP to do the whole 1 gram per Lb of LBM of protein thing and was eating a lot of meat...gout flared right away.
I'm sorry you have gout. It's no fun. My husband has gout but in his knee. Want to guess how he's treating it and how he ate while losing 20lbs over the last couple of months? Yeah. He went lower carb. Not keto. That's not something he wants to do, but under 150g of carbs on most days. He hasn't had a flare-up since changing his diet to a low fructose, low grain, lower carb diet.
He couldn't do mostly vegetarian since he doesn't like "rabbit food" - his term and not mine. I out eat him in vegetables everyday.
...And I "dispute anything that might be negative to your WOE though...so no surprise there really...keto cures all! It's like you all just live in your own little echo chamber...it's like the Fox News of dieting"? Really?
Having your own little closed group is the epitome of an echo chamber...but I'm sure the discussions are all "fair and balanced" and provide for multiple points of view...2 -
@lemurcat12 Yeah, data-collection and reflection are absolutely beneficial. It's an effective way to note patterns, locate assumptions, and test out a theory.
I found the "evidence" in her experience sufficient to suggest that an overreaction to carbs/sugar is likely at play. More data and reflection are of course good things and *necessary* before settling on an inference though, definitely.
I hope the OP experiments with food pairings so she can see if that helps her.
I'm still daydreaming about a life where I could eat carbs freely.
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It does seem to happen with carbs and sugar, what could I do to handle over reaction to these?0
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AngeleyesJo wrote: »It does seem to happen with carbs and sugar, what could I do to handle over reaction to these?
Well, using the muffin as an example... You could eat only half of it and accompany it with a glass of milk.
Or, if you don't like milk, you could eat half of it with your dinner or immediately afterwards, plus increase your protein serving to offset the carbs/sugar you're adding to the meal.
Try choosing only high protein foods if you're eating outside of a meals. If your appetite is indeed triggered by carbs, I think you'll be as amazed as I was to find how steady and low your appetite stays so long as you don't feed yourself carbs solo. Understanding how to manage this changed my life.
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Chunkahlunkah wrote: »@lemurcat12 Yeah, data-collection and reflection are absolutely beneficial. It's an effective way to note patterns, locate assumptions, and test out a theory.
I found the "evidence" in her experience sufficient to suggest that an overreaction to carbs/sugar is likely at play. More data and reflection are of course good things and *necessary* before settling on an inference though, definitely.
I think I just get frustrated by the way some low carbers (I don't know if this is you or not) equate junk food with carbs and say things like "I crave carbs" when they never crave carrots and what they do crave has a lower percentage of carbs than a carrot (something like a cookie, which is often 50% fat, but gets called a "carb" not a "fat"). I'm not objecting to the idea that one might crave a cookie (I'm sure it's common), but referring to it as a "carb" craving. (For example, you keep referring to the muffin as "carbs solo" when it probably has as much fat as carbs -- common for a baked good. I agree with the advice to pair it with more satiating foods, eat it soon after dinner -- although she may have -- and to combine it with protein (which I said upthread too), but I don't agree that it's CARBS any more than the potatoes at dinner and the veg, which provoked no reaction, were CARBS. Both are, and both are combined with other macros. Is carbs with fiber and protein (even with little fat) for many people more filling than refined carbs + fat? Absolutely, IME, but blaming only the CARBS for this makes no sense to me.
Continuing with this thought, with OP, I don't see how "it's carbs!" fit with her dinner experience, but is it her finding a particular sugary food a trigger? Quite possible -- that's a theory I'd be looking at if I were her, sure.
Personally, I really love good pizza and pasta and might crave them (not in the bad way I think people mean, though). I'd never crave plain bread or crust or plain pasta and no sauce (it's the sauce, which I make myself and always has lots of protein and vegetables) that I crave. So would it make sense for me to refer to these as "carb" cravings? I don't think so -- in both cases the fact that there's a mix of macros and tastes is likely why I'm craving it and the fat plays a role certainly.I hope the OP experiments with food pairings so she can see if that helps her.
I'm still daydreaming about a life where I could eat carbs freely.
I don't eat freely; I could eat a ridiculous amount of food, carbs or no, if I did (cheese is something I can put away, and so are nuts). Not hungry, though. ;-) And if it makes you feel better, I wish I found fat satiating!3 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »MonicaRAmbs wrote: »Despite what you may say, I am correct. If you would only read the science. You are going on very old data. A calorie is not a calorie. I eat a lot of fat and I loose weight but most importantly it removes cravings, gives complete satiety, changes all your cardiac markers, reduces inflammation, stops Diabetes in its tracks. And way more. You have not read or seen any recent conferences have you? Go to U-tube and watch 2016 Metabolic conferences and the scientists Dr. Jeff Voleck, Dr. Agostino, Dr. Steven Phinney, and then read about 150 papers that have come out since 2003. Throw your old books away.
Why don't all vegetarians have diabetes and whatnot if what you say is true...
I'm substantially veggie and eat a lot of carbs...nothing you said is true...I lost 40 Lbs pretty easily...I don't have diabetes or blood glucose issues, etc...I didn't have to tank my diet to lose weight either as you suggest...I lost my weight about 4 years ago and did so eating around 2200-2300 calories...I eat 3,000 plus in maintenance.
Typical keto evangelism and fear mongering...
ETA: if you're going to go keto, I'd highly recommend consulting with your doctor..despite what the ketoangelicals claim, there are health risks associated with low carb and keto diets. For one, uric acid levels will rise which may or may not be an issue...it would be a huge issue for me. Keto doesn't cure everything under the sun...
The uric acid issues are disputed. Some have found they rise during the the first 6 to 12 weeks while becoming fat adapted and ketones are rising, but it falls back to, or below, normal after that. Others found there is no rise in uric acid but only a decrease. I'm assuming you have found other studies that state uric acid levels rose and stayed elevated beyond fat adaption?
High fat diets are dangerous for those who have fat malabsorption issues, though rare.
I have read plenty and experienced it myself...I've had gout since I was in my mid twenties...it was diagnosed when I was doing keto to drop a few vanity pounds back then...I just woke up one night and thought I had broken my foot (I get it in my ankle)....my uric acid was through the roof as evidenced by my blood work (which was fine previously) and my first gout attack...I know you all dispute anything that might be negative to your WOE though...so no surprise there really...keto cures all!
Gout is one of the primarily reasons I eat substantially vegetarian...I tried early on with MFP to do the whole 1 gram per Lb of LBM of protein thing and was eating a lot of meat...gout flared right away.
I'm sorry you have gout. It's no fun. My husband has gout but in his knee. Want to guess how he's treating it and how he ate while losing 20lbs over the last couple of months? Yeah. He went lower carb. Not keto. That's not something he wants to do, but under 150g of carbs on most days. He hasn't had a flare-up since changing his diet to a low fructose, low grain, lower carb diet.
He couldn't do mostly vegetarian since he doesn't like "rabbit food" - his term and not mine. I out eat him in vegetables everyday.
...And I "dispute anything that might be negative to your WOE though...so no surprise there really...keto cures all! It's like you all just live in your own little echo chamber...it's like the Fox News of dieting"? Really?
Having your own little closed group is the epitome of an echo chamber...but I'm sure the discussions are all "fair and balanced" and provide for multiple points of view...
Echo chamber? LOL Funny. Not judgemental in the least.
It's more about going to a group with a similar focus, who enjoy discussing related low carb topics, where you can find more information. Most around the main boards know very little about LCHF diets. Their advice is often not correct. I think it makes sense to go to a group of people who enjoys researching and learning about low carb and tend to have similar experiences with the diet.... unless you would rather the thousands in the active LCD group discussed their low carb topics on the main boards? LOL
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I think the solution to the whole problem for the OP, drop the muffins. Low satiety and highly caloric because it's loaded with fats and carbs. Replace it with more foods that are high in protein, fiber and mix in fat as necessary. I don't see how this is a carb vs fat problem, but rather a choice of food. When I am in a cut, i rarely eat ice cream or Klondike bars. Why because they don't fill me. So I replace them with fruit and cool whip. The later has a lot more volume and high satiety levels.0
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AngeleyesJo wrote: »AngeleyesJo wrote: »I think my meals could be a but carb heavy and my snacks sweet, maybe just need to adjust my diet but not sure how?
Angel, you would adjust macros in your meals for satiety only. Macro adjustment does not directly cause weight loss. It's the dietary plan that keeps you full enough to stay in a calorie deficit that does.
This is what I'm hoping to achieve since I've been having wobbles with blood sugar like constant hunger shakes weakness feeling sick
Understood. When I eat an overabundance of a sweet food, I psychologically want more because it tastes so darned good.
However, when I make up my mind to have a sweet/carb snack, if I take serving, weight it, put package away, and then eat only that, I'm okay. Sometimes this means that I have a smaller serving than on the package.
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I think the solution to the whole problem for the OP, drop the muffins. Low satiety and highly caloric because it's loaded with fats and carbs. Replace it with more foods that are high in protein, fiber and mix in fat as necessary. I don't see how this is a carb vs fat problem, but rather a choice of food. When I am in a cut, i rarely eat ice cream or Klondike bars. Why because they don't fill me. So I replace them with fruit and cool whip. The later has a lot more volume and high satiety levels.
I disagree. Why not have a half muffin, or even quarter the muffin, and save the rest for another day?0 -
I think the solution to the whole problem for the OP, drop the muffins. Low satiety and highly caloric because it's loaded with fats and carbs. Replace it with more foods that are high in protein, fiber and mix in fat as necessary. I don't see how this is a carb vs fat problem, but rather a choice of food. When I am in a cut, i rarely eat ice cream or Klondike bars. Why because they don't fill me. So I replace them with fruit and cool whip. The later has a lot more volume and high satiety levels.
I disagree. Why not have a half muffin, or even quarter the muffin, and save the rest for another day?
Yes this would work.... If you have willpower made of steel 1 -
Christine_72 wrote: »I think the solution to the whole problem for the OP, drop the muffins. Low satiety and highly caloric because it's loaded with fats and carbs. Replace it with more foods that are high in protein, fiber and mix in fat as necessary. I don't see how this is a carb vs fat problem, but rather a choice of food. When I am in a cut, i rarely eat ice cream or Klondike bars. Why because they don't fill me. So I replace them with fruit and cool whip. The later has a lot more volume and high satiety levels.
I disagree. Why not have a half muffin, or even quarter the muffin, and save the rest for another day?
Yes this would work.... If you have willpower made of steel
Nah, willpower of steel is nothing. It's all about choices.1
This discussion has been closed.
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