Boy Scouts ban obese kids from Jamboree
Replies
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This isn't excluding "fat" kids. A BMI of 40 is morbidly obese. So yes, their hearts actually could explode out of their chest. For a boy scout age kid to have a BMI of 40 they would basically have to be as big around as they are tall or even bigger. It's probably dangerous for them to do the activity.
How many obese children have heart attacks? Im genuinely curious - i didn't know there was an epidemic of morbidly obese children having their chests explode.
Not sure it's an "epidemic" but with the huge increase in childhood obesity comes a huge increase in the risk.
Oh so because they are morbidly obese they should be discouraged to do anything physically demanding? Thats ridiculous, ive seen morbidly obese people do amazing things when given the chance and to not allow these kids to have a chance and possibly wanting to be physically fit next year because they couldnt do something this year to the best of their ability is ridiculous.0 -
1) The ban is on kids with a BMI of 40 ("very severely obese); would you want to take responsibility for them at a jamboree? Would you underwrite the insurance?
2) The kids (and adult leaders) had two years notice of the ban.0 -
Are there really "very fit but muscular" kids with a BMI over 40?
I do agree that I would rather see modifications and a physical assessment required than a banning.0 -
I know a lot of people are upset by this article. I see it as a reality check. If there are really enough kids/adults involved with the BSA that are morbidly obese to prompt this extreme of a policy, it proves there is an obesity epidemic in the US. Like we didn't already know this. I do feel sorry for the people the BMI doesn't work for, but I would hope that with common sense and doctor's approvals proper exceptions were made. My boyfriend is quite tall and was a little chubby in high school, but he was definitely not obese. The BMI works best for median height people.
But, lets be honest with ourselves, kids should not be carrying around 100 lbs or more of extra weight. Let this be a wake up call America. I mean aren't we all on this site because we want to be healthier people? It might be an unpopular opinion, but I think society does need to call people out who blatantly live unhealthy lifestyles. We do with smoking, drinking, and sex. So why not eating and exercising? What saddens me the most is parents who allow their young children to become so terribly unhealthy. That is not right. That is what people should be outraged about.
QFT. Accountability, no one wants any.0 -
How big would a kid have to be to have a BMI over 40?
morbidly obese. Like dangerously overweight.
Most of the time, true. But a blanket ban just on attending?
In 1987 I weighed 280 pounds at 5"10". I played football and wrestled. I ran 4 miles every day before practice and went on to walk on to division 1 college football team. That summer before my senior year, I went to a High Adventure camp and backpacked 50 miles in the N.C. mountains.
Based on those numbers, my BMI was 41.5. I would have been banned from a freaking jamboree.
I definitely needed to lose some weight, but it in no way hindered me from participating and usually performing above average.
Apples don't look or taste like oranges bro. You are comparing an adult athlete to a boy scout kid. Kids in boyscouts aren't built like athletes, they are built like kids.
This isn't necessarily true. Boy scouts goes from age 10-18. Venturing scouts from 14-21. My Assistant Senior Patrol Leader os very athletic. He and his father are both into cross-fit. When we play games or race in our meetings, I am usually coming in second to him in everything. He also took me down hard lastnight in a game we were playing. However, he is nowhere near a BMI of 40. Not even close.0 -
I think people need to remember that each division of Boy Scouts can be different. My kids are in Cub Scouts and I lead one of the age groups... we would NEVER make kids feel bad like this. Boy Scouts is ALL about trying your best. But, then again, we also don't discriminate against openly gay children.
If your child is in any kind of group with whom has beliefs contradictory to yours, I encourage you to look into other groups nearby as they could differ greatly. :flowerforyou:
Oh, and to whomever asked about disabilities... yes, children with physical and mental disabilities are welcomed. Again, because it's about doing your best, and we teach children to accept each other for who they are. At least in our charter. I wish the other leaders were as open-minded.0 -
This isn't excluding "fat" kids. A BMI of 40 is morbidly obese. So yes, their hearts actually could explode out of their chest. For a boy scout age kid to have a BMI of 40 they would basically have to be as big around as they are tall or even bigger. It's probably dangerous for them to do the activity.
How many obese children have heart attacks? Im genuinely curious - i didn't know there was an epidemic of morbidly obese children having their chests explode.
Not sure it's an "epidemic" but with the huge increase in childhood obesity comes a huge increase in the risk.
Oh so because they are morbidly obese they should be discouraged to do anything physically demanding? Thats ridiculous, ive seen morbidly obese people do amazing things when given the chance and to not allow these kids to have a chance and possibly wanting to be physically fit next year because they couldnt do something this year to the best of their ability is ridiculous.
The way I read it it's a little more than "physically demanding". I mean, the thing is on an army base, right? I am not saying they shouldn't do physical activity and they aren't banned from boy scouts, just this event.0 -
Are there really "very fit but muscular" kids with a BMI over 40?
I do agree that I would rather see modifications and a physical assessment required than a banning.
No, there aren't. There aren't many adults with a BMI of 40+ that are physically fit and in shape.0 -
This isn't excluding "fat" kids. A BMI of 40 is morbidly obese. So yes, their hearts actually could explode out of their chest. For a boy scout age kid to have a BMI of 40 they would basically have to be as big around as they are tall or even bigger. It's probably dangerous for them to do the activity.
How many obese children have heart attacks? Im genuinely curious - i didn't know there was an epidemic of morbidly obese children having their chests explode.
Not sure it's an "epidemic" but with the huge increase in childhood obesity comes a huge increase in the risk.
Oh so because they are morbidly obese they should be discouraged to do anything physically demanding? Thats ridiculous, ive seen morbidly obese people do amazing things when given the chance and to not allow these kids to have a chance and possibly wanting to be physically fit next year because they couldnt do something this year to the best of their ability is ridiculous.
The way I read it it's a little more than "physically demanding". I mean, the thing is on an army base, right? I am not saying they shouldn't do physical activity and they aren't banned from boy scouts, just this event.
From what I read its not just a physical even though, and maybe it is super friggin demanding but why not let them try? There are medical staff everywhere for the other kids and its not like they cant stop and catch their breath right? I just think this is spreading a message of lethargy to obese people in general. They dont take it as "well guess i should lose weight if i wanna be involved." They take it as an excuse you can only motivate yourself and i believe these kids need to be motivated through their own actions.0 -
Are there really "very fit but muscular" kids with a BMI over 40?
I do agree that I would rather see modifications and a physical assessment required than a banning.
No, there aren't. There aren't many adults with a BMI of 40+ that are physically fit and in shape.
Yeah, there are sometimes, and a blanket ban isn't a good idea.
Accepting responsibility is allowing a doctor to sign off on a detailed release explaining the activities involved. Unless you like arbitrary rules overriding personal responsibility?
BTW, here I am at 17 years old and weighed 295 at graduation. A real fatty.
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They have long stopped being "BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA". I wonder if it would take too much of their precious time or budget to have competitions for these boys instead of rejecting them?0
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Why doesn't the Boy Scouts just STFU already. They are starting to sound like Hitler. I know, I know oversimplified but I couldn't think of a kind way to say that they seem to be trying to narrow their view of who is acceptable more and more lately and are creating a hugely negative image for themselves that calls to mind a horrible historic figure from the past who did the same thing and it led to some real vile problems. Oh wait I guess I just said it. Ok so yeah ^that. Forget the first part. It may come across as inflammatory and may make me sound like a buffoon. So just scratch that. But yeah, why don't they just stick to tying knots and camping and be done with it. Who do they think they are? You don't see the girls scouts doing all this controversial ish? They just keep selling those yum cookies and in fact keep coming out with better and better ones. Maybe it's time they invited some girl scouts to their meetings to show them how PR is done?
Unfortunately I agree with you. The national organization is a pain in the *kitten*, but I have seen it do too much good for kids at the local level to write them off totally.
I didn't write them off totally. I said they should still tie knots and camp. I think we are in full agreement except you are sad that you agree with me. I'm not sad about it. I read what you wrote and I'm ok with it.0 -
I think people need to remember that each division of Boy Scouts can be different. My kids are in Cub Scouts and I lead one of the age groups... we would NEVER make kids feel bad like this. Boy Scouts is ALL about trying your best. But, then again, we also don't discriminate against openly gay children.
If your child is in any kind of group with whom has beliefs contradictory to yours, I encourage you to look into other groups nearby as they could differ greatly. :flowerforyou:
Oh, and to whomever asked about disabilities... yes, children with physical and mental disabilities are welcomed. Again, because it's about doing your best, and we teach children to accept each other for who they are. At least in our charter. I wish the other leaders were as open-minded.
Read the article. The kids aren't banned from joining a charter, doing any local event that they want, etc. This is a "national" event on property owned by BSA.0 -
This got me curious... I just checked what the BMI would be for a 17 year old at 205 lbs and it said overweight. That was my weight at 17 as a college basketball scholarship bound high school senior. The BMI is not a good measure of ability or fitness. I think the BSA took the easy way (coward's way) and copped out on this one.
This makes me sad.0 -
This isn't excluding "fat" kids. A BMI of 40 is morbidly obese. So yes, their hearts actually could explode out of their chest. For a boy scout age kid to have a BMI of 40 they would basically have to be as big around as they are tall or even bigger. It's probably dangerous for them to do the activity.
How many obese children have heart attacks? Im genuinely curious - i didn't know there was an epidemic of morbidly obese children having their chests explode.
Not sure it's an "epidemic" but with the huge increase in childhood obesity comes a huge increase in the risk.
Oh so because they are morbidly obese they should be discouraged to do anything physically demanding? Thats ridiculous, ive seen morbidly obese people do amazing things when given the chance and to not allow these kids to have a chance and possibly wanting to be physically fit next year because they couldnt do something this year to the best of their ability is ridiculous.
The way I read it it's a little more than "physically demanding". I mean, the thing is on an army base, right? I am not saying they shouldn't do physical activity and they aren't banned from boy scouts, just this event.
From what I read its not just a physical even though, and maybe it is super friggin demanding but why not let them try? There are medical staff everywhere for the other kids and its not like they cant stop and catch their breath right? I just think this is spreading a message of lethargy to obese people in general. They dont take it as "well guess i should lose weight if i wanna be involved." They take it as an excuse you can only motivate yourself and i believe these kids need to be motivated through their own actions.
Probably because of the huge risk or injury and sue happy people. That is why I imagine they are banned from even trying.0 -
Why doesn't the Boy Scouts just STFU already. They are starting to sound like Hitler. I know, I know oversimplified but I couldn't think of a kind way to say that they seem to be trying to narrow their view of who is acceptable more and more lately and are creating a hugely negative image for themselves that calls to mind a horrible historic figure from the past who did the same thing and it led to some real vile problems. Oh wait I guess I just said it. Ok so yeah ^that. Forget the first part. It may come across as inflammatory and may make me sound like a buffoon. So just scratch that. But yeah, why don't they just stick to tying knots and camping and be done with it. Who do they think they are? You don't see the girls scouts doing all this controversial ish? They just keep selling those yum cookies and in fact keep coming out with better and better ones. Maybe it's time they invited some girl scouts to their meetings to show them how PR is done?
Unfortunately I agree with you. The national organization is a pain in the *kitten*, but I have seen it do too much good for kids at the local level to write them off totally.
I didn't write them off totally. I said they should still tie knots and camp. I think we are in full agreement except you are sad that you agree with me. I'm not sad about it. I read what you wrote and I'm ok with it.
lol sad that they have become what they are lately, not sad that I agree. I have good friends that are Eagles and are gay. Seeing how it made them feel for so many years made me eschew anything past the troop level.0 -
I highly suspect this is motivated more by the BSA's fear of having to defend a law suit than it is by their desire to exclude kids. I'd be surprised to find any scout leaders who agree with this policy. However, that being said, BSA administration need to figure out a way to limit their liability while still including all boys who want to participate. I have an overweight child who loves scouts & loves his leaders. He has learned to love camping and hiking through the leaders that he looks up to. I encourage him to go on all the outings because it is such a great opportunity for exercise and it has been an immese confidence builder for him. If he were to be exclude for weight, I'm afraid he would quit and never go back out of humiliation. No one wants that!
^ This is spot on. As I said in my post on the first page, the solution should have been a fitness test, rather than excluding kids based on BMI, together with alternative programs that are better suited to those that can't meet the physical requirements. I remember several scouting hikes where half the group ended up camping and the rest of us soldiered on during rough hikes. This isn't that hard to figure out and I think they ended up relying on some bad advice.0 -
This got me curious... I just checked what the BMI would be for a 17 year old at 205 lbs and it said overweight. That was my weight at 17 as a college basketball scholarship bound high school senior. The BMI is not a good measure of ability or fitness. I think the BSA took the easy way (coward's way) and copped out on this one.
This makes me sad.
17 and 205 doesn't really mean anything. What was your height? Also, "overweight" is not even close to the scale they are banning. 40+ is "morbidly obese", 3 more whole steps up from "overweight". Not many people get to that BMI without being obese.0 -
OK folks I understand it doesn't seem right or fair but I gotta call out the people who are saying they(the BSA) should design special programs etc. for the obese kids and give them special badges etc. Why should a private organization have to comply to what everyone wants?? I was a fat boy scout and I just had to deal with everything that was more difficult. I had a great time and would do it again. Of course back then no one had even heard of politically correct. It also amazes me that anything the media reports as bad is automatically deemed the worst thing in the world by the general public. Maybe people don't know the whole story or maybe they do?? I don't know but right away people jump on the bandwagon and condemn condemn condemn!!! Please step back and think before you jump all over an organization that has helped countless boys to grow into useful members of society...would you like it better if there was nothing for kids to turn to and do? Maybe every kid could grow up to be a drug addict or a murderer or a rapist. again they are a private organization trying to help kids and oh by the way why wasn't there an uproar when it was ok for curves to refuse men access. This goes to the general outlook of this country that any minority group has more right than others...sorry had to rant!!0
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This isn't excluding "fat" kids. A BMI of 40 is morbidly obese. So yes, their hearts actually could explode out of their chest. For a boy scout age kid to have a BMI of 40 they would basically have to be as big around as they are tall or even bigger. It's probably dangerous for them to do the activity.
How many obese children have heart attacks? Im genuinely curious - i didn't know there was an epidemic of morbidly obese children having their chests explode.
Not sure it's an "epidemic" but with the huge increase in childhood obesity comes a huge increase in the risk.
Oh so because they are morbidly obese they should be discouraged to do anything physically demanding? Thats ridiculous, ive seen morbidly obese people do amazing things when given the chance and to not allow these kids to have a chance and possibly wanting to be physically fit next year because they couldnt do something this year to the best of their ability is ridiculous.
The way I read it it's a little more than "physically demanding". I mean, the thing is on an army base, right? I am not saying they shouldn't do physical activity and they aren't banned from boy scouts, just this event.
From what I read its not just a physical even though, and maybe it is super friggin demanding but why not let them try? There are medical staff everywhere for the other kids and its not like they cant stop and catch their breath right? I just think this is spreading a message of lethargy to obese people in general. They dont take it as "well guess i should lose weight if i wanna be involved." They take it as an excuse you can only motivate yourself and i believe these kids need to be motivated through their own actions.
Probably because of the huge risk or injury and sue happy people. That is why I imagine they are banned from even trying.
True dat -.- thats probably the all in all truthful reason.0 -
Just to play devil's advocate, it is quite possible this has nothing to do with obesity so much as fear of litigation. Fat kid breaks his leg, parents sue boy scouts for negligence.
Now, someone gets hurts and parents try to sue, they have a better case to show a prudent measures were taken. Everyone sues everyone now a days, and especially those with deep pockets. So they have to protect themselves from liability.
Skinny people can break bones too.
Agreed. But a lawyer can make a better case for an obese one, saying it was not safe for someone overweight to be playing. To add to that even if a skinny kid breaks a leg or whatever, the fact that they took steps is now part of their defense.
A lawyer for a skinny kid can make a case that the effort was misguided and used poor metrics. BMI does not measure athletic ability or fitness level it (supposedly) measures body fat or body proportionality. Therefore, the metric used is completely worthless in terms of preventing liability.
BSA could prevent liability by claiming that it requires all kids to receive clearance from their primary care physician who presumably knows the kid's fitness and health status better than anyone else. If the kid's doctor clears him, no additional clearance is necessary. I don't see how this does anything to prevent lawsuits.
From a cost benefit perspective, I just don't see how this is a cost-effective means of limiting liability and costs. How many kids were likely to get hurt versus how many kids are likely to 1) sue for discrimination under this policy, 2) withdraw from BSA and contribute no more reveune to the organization, or 3) be upset and find other ways to cost the organization money through his actions?
All good points. Like I said, people sue people for everything these days. BSA has to decide whats best for them from a business perspective. They are not excluding people from joining the BSA, but participating in an event.
Are all physicians well versed in the Jamboree course to make a decision whether or not its safe?0 -
Really I think BSA go it completely opposite on this one.
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You know... they could have just created two separate programs with different levels of physical demand. Then, the kids could opt in to the program they wanted to perform, get a special badge for whichever they complete, and then the more physically demanding program would be something the kids could train and strive for the next year.
The Jamboree is completely optional. There are a million other boy scout camps all scouts can go to. think of the jamboree as for "all stars" or something. Not everyone is a starter or first string.
Also, while I don't think BMI is a great health indicate, keep in mind overweight starts at 25 and they are limiting kids with a BMI of over 40! that's 250 pounds for someone who is 5'6".0 -
This is another example of well meaning, but uninformed, people doing more harm than good. If the physical challenges are really that challenging then the only reasonable way to make the determination is to require a physical fitness evaluation. BMI is going to cut out some very fit but muscular kids. That said, I don't think excluding kids from the entire event makes any sense whatsoever.
I don't entirely disagree with your conclusion. I think a fitness test or doctors approval should work without an absolute BMI cap. It certainly would have been more politic.
But, do you think there are a significant number of physically fit 250+ pound teenagers? Because at BMI 40 that's the weight range we're talking about.0 -
Guys, I am not saying that all kids should be allowed entry just because they have a wanker and can say the oath.
A detailed medical release, describing the activities involved, and signed by a doctor, should be sufficient.
Then if for some reason a kid can't do a particular event, he sits out. No special activities needed.
This shouldn't be so complicated. It is paperwork.0 -
The way I read it it's a little more than "physically demanding". I mean, the thing is on an army base, right? I am not saying they shouldn't do physical activity and they aren't banned from boy scouts, just this event.
From what I read its not just a physical even though, and maybe it is super friggin demanding but why not let them try? There are medical staff everywhere for the other kids and its not like they cant stop and catch their breath right? I just think this is spreading a message of lethargy to obese people in general. They dont take it as "well guess i should lose weight if i wanna be involved." They take it as an excuse you can only motivate yourself and i believe these kids need to be motivated through their own actions.
That's the problem with some of teh activiites, you can't stop and take a little breath. Especially on the high adventure bases. At Philmont, you are out in the backcountry where you have no communication with the main base necessarily. There are check points where you meet up with staff, but if something went wrong, you could end up dead. I had a friend who was a physician for Philmont, and they were the first HA base to incorporate the obesity limits years ago. This was because they would have these hugely morbidly obese people show up from the flatlands and try to hike up and down mountains 20 miles a day, and they would have MIs, and the staff would have no idea until someone came back to a check point to alert them.
At Northern Tier, you pretty much hop in a canoe and take off for campsites on your own. There are portages where you carry your canoes and all of your gear for over a mile on land. If "johnny" gets to feeling ill, you can't just say, "Well, he tried" We'll just leave him here in the middle of nowhere. He needs to keep moving or the whole party is at risk. There is no way to get them out if they can't hack it.0 -
This is another example of well meaning, but uninformed, people doing more harm than good. If the physical challenges are really that challenging then the only reasonable way to make the determination is to require a physical fitness evaluation. BMI is going to cut out some very fit but muscular kids. That said, I don't think excluding kids from the entire event makes any sense whatsoever.
I don't entirely disagree with your conclusion. I think a fitness test or doctors approval should work without an absolute BMI cap. It certainly would have been more politic.
But, do you think there are a significant number of physically fit 250+ pound teenagers? Because at BMI 40 that's the weight range we're talking about.
No, there are not many of them, but they shouldn't be excluding the few high school centers and linemen either. I'm pretty sure that our high school center back in the early 90s would have failed this test, but I also regularly saw him bench 320+ pounds when he was 17.0 -
i'm wondering what it would mean, in terms of equipment, to cater to the morbidly obese... it gets posted here a lot, the belt/harness in the ride or on the flight didn't fit.
i know how difficuly it is to move & handle people with disabilities, and extra weight makes it incredibly hard... perhaps that coupled with the increased risk of injury might come into it.
just a thought.0 -
As an adult scout leader of 8 years and a former scout myself, I understand why this policy in place. It is not new. As has been stated before, any High Adventure activities (usually defined as heavy physical activities and/or activities above 7,000 feet) does need the scout or adult attending to have a physical (in the last year) saying they medically able to attend. If a Scout or adults BMI is within a specific range, they need further medical approval (the doctor signs an extra line on the med forms). So in the instance of a 300 lbs linebacker or body builder will not be bumped by this rule.
In my troop we have several boys and adults who would not, on straight BMI, qualify, but still are able to do the High Adventure because their personal doctor has signed off (we are doing a 3 day backpacking trip at 7,600 feet this week with two of them). On the other hand I have had a few scouts who were so big and not in shape that they could not do a mile hike around the local lake (elevation 90 feet), so yeah they are not going on a grueling 3 day backpacking trip.
But we do have lots of physical activates for all of our boys such as Canoe camping, Rock Climbing trips, day hikes, Car camping, Snow Camping. We have a wide variety so we include as many scouts as possible.
Also I am pleased with the new policy towards gay scouts, new we just need to get leadership to shift on adults.
And on one last note, I missed several BSA camping trips a few years back due to my doctor not signing off on my medical form. You know what I did? I worked to correct the problem as quick as I could, so as to be able to get back to being a leader.0 -
Are there really "very fit but muscular" kids with a BMI over 40?
I do agree that I would rather see modifications and a physical assessment required than a banning.
No, there aren't. There aren't many adults with a BMI of 40+ that are physically fit and in shape.
Yeah, there are sometimes, and a blanket ban isn't a good idea.
Accepting responsibility is allowing a doctor to sign off on a detailed release explaining the activities involved. Unless you like arbitrary rules overriding personal responsibility?
BTW, here I am at 17 years old and weighed 295 at graduation. A real fatty.
I said there aren't many, not that there aren't any. Were you a 40+ BMI in that picture?0
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