Boy Scouts ban obese kids from Jamboree

Not_Pictured

The concern should be focused on why parents even permit their children to get that obese? That is not okay. What are parents even thinking? It's one thing for you, as an adult, to be fat but to let your children gain so much weight is unacceptable.

SpeSHul_SnoflEHk

Just to play devil's advocate, it is quite possible this has nothing to do with obesity so much as fear of litigation. Fat kid breaks his leg, parents sue boy scouts for negligence.

Now, someone gets hurts and parents try to sue, they have a better case to show a prudent measures were taken. Everyone sues everyone now a days, and especially those with deep pockets. So they have to protect themselves from liability.

Skinny people can break bones too.

Agreed. But a lawyer can make a better case for an obese one, saying it was not safe for someone overweight to be playing. To add to that even if a skinny kid breaks a leg or whatever, the fact that they took steps is now part of their defense.

A lawyer for a skinny kid can make a case that the effort was misguided and used poor metrics. BMI does not measure athletic ability or fitness level it (supposedly) measures body fat or body proportionality. Therefore, the metric used is completely worthless in terms of preventing liability.

BSA could prevent liability by claiming that it requires all kids to receive clearance from their primary care physician who presumably knows the kid's fitness and health status better than anyone else. If the kid's doctor clears him, no additional clearance is necessary. I don't see how this does anything to prevent lawsuits.

From a cost benefit perspective, I just don't see how this is a cost-effective means of limiting liability and costs. How many kids were likely to get hurt versus how many kids are likely to 1) sue for discrimination under this policy, 2) withdraw from BSA and contribute no more reveune to the organization, or 3) be upset and find other ways to cost the organization money through his actions?

All good points. Like I said, people sue people for everything these days. BSA has to decide whats best for them from a business perspective. They are not excluding people from joining the BSA, but participating in an event.

Are all physicians well versed in the Jamboree course to make a decision whether or not its safe?

Physicians are give a "Part D" of the physical form which describes the conditions that can be seen during a High-adventure activity. They are supposed to read it. I know many who just set it aside and don't even look at it while doing the physical.

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/part_d.pdf

ScottyNoHotty

You can argue this back and forth, but the BSA is a PRIVATE organization. No one is forcing them to join.

Before you start nit picking me, I was involved with BSA through Cub Scouts, Webelos, and made it to Life Scout before high school. I was also an Asst. Scout master for a short time.

I do remember that there were ( and may still be ) certain rules they had for physical fitness you had to have to go to Philmont Ranch and certain merit badges.....

SpeSHul_SnoflEHk

Guys, I am not saying that all kids should be allowed entry just because they have a wanker and can say the oath.

A detailed medical release, describing the activities involved, and signed by a doctor, should be sufficient.
Then if for some reason a kid can't do a particular event, he sits out. No special activities needed.

This shouldn't be so complicated. It is paperwork.

They don't even eed a wanker. This is the first year they have let Venturers in as participants. Girls 14-21 can be there as participants.

ET correct dropped letters.

Briko3

Since when has obesity been a disease? I know it can cause disease, but by calling it a disease, does it not make it an excuse for people staying that way?

downsizinghoss

I said there aren't many, not that there aren't any. Were you a 40+ BMI in that picture?

Based on the CDC calculator, at just shy of 18 years old, 5'10" and 295 pounds, my BMI in that picture was 42.3.

SpeSHul_SnoflEHk

As an adult scout leader of 8 years and a former scout myself, I understand why this policy in place. It is not new. As has been stated before, any High Adventure activities (usually defined as heavy physical activities and/or activities above 7,000 feet) does need the scout or adult attending to have a physical (in the last year) saying they medically able to attend. If a Scout or adults BMI is within a specific range, they need further medical approval (the doctor signs an extra line on the med forms). So in the instance of a 300 lbs linebacker or body builder will not be bumped by this rule.

In my troop we have several boys and adults who would not, on straight BMI, qualify, but still are able to do the High Adventure because their personal doctor has signed off (we are doing a 3 day backpacking trip at 7,600 feet this week with two of them). On the other hand I have had a few scouts who were so big and not in shape that they could not do a mile hike around the local lake (elevation 90 feet), so yeah they are not going on a grueling 3 day backpacking trip.

But we do have lots of physical activates for all of our boys such as Canoe camping, Rock Climbing trips, day hikes, Car camping, Snow Camping. We have a wide variety so we include as many scouts as possible.

Also I am pleased with the new policy towards gay scouts, new we just need to get leadership to shift on adults.

And on one last note, I missed several BSA camping trips a few years back due to my doctor not signing off on my medical form. You know what I did? I worked to correct the problem as quick as I could, so as to be able to get back to being a leader.

Exactly this. Other than the definition of HA activities. There is no elevation requirement as Northern tier, and Sea base are considered HA actiivties, and Sea base is prety much at sea level.

BeachIron

This is another example of well meaning, but uninformed, people doing more harm than good. If the physical challenges are really that challenging then the only reasonable way to make the determination is to require a physical fitness evaluation. BMI is going to cut out some very fit but muscular kids. That said, I don't think excluding kids from the entire event makes any sense whatsoever.

I don't entirely disagree with your conclusion. I think a fitness test or doctors approval should work without an absolute BMI cap. It certainly would have been more politic.

But, do you think there are a significant number of physically fit 250+ pound teenagers? Because at BMI 40 that's the weight range we're talking about.

The number of them really isn't the point. The fact that this test is both over and under inclusive makes it a poorly designed test. Also, see my earlier comment regarding high school football players.

moosegt35

I said there aren't many, not that there aren't any. Were you a 40+ BMI in that picture?

Based on the CDC calculator, at just shy of 18 years old, 5'10" and 295 pounds, my BMI in that picture was 42.3.

Well I can't see much in that picture but that's pretty overweight even for someone who is muscular. Also, it appears that you could have still done the event if you got "special permission" and a Dr. clearance. I am 6'11", somewhat muscular and was 295 a little over a year ago. I was severely overweight even at that height and don't think I could have completed the event.

Mustang_Susie

The risk is real and significant, not emotional fabrication in an ill-concieved attempt to legitimize a view point:


One of the risk factors for morbidly obese children is left ventricular hypertrophy which can result in sudden cardiac arrest.

Abstract

Obesity has become an increasingly important medical problem in children and adolescents. In national surveys from the 1960s to the 1990s, the prevalence of overweight in children grew from 5% to 11%. Outcomes related to childhood obesity include hypertension, type 2 diabetes mellitus, dyslipidemia, left ventricular hypertrophy, nonalcoholic steatohepatitis, obstructive sleep apnea, orthopedic problems, and psychosocial problems. Once considered rare, primary hypertension in children has become increasingly common in association with obesity and other risk factors, including a family history of hypertension and an ethnic predisposition to hypertensive disease. Obese children are at approximately a 3-fold higher risk for hypertension than nonobese children. In addition, the risk of hypertension in children increases across the entire range of body mass index (BMI) values and is not defined by a simple threshold effect. As in adults, a combination of factors including overactivity of the sympathetic nervous system (SNS), insulin resistance, and abnormalities in vascular structure and function may contribute to obesity-related hypertension in children. The benefits of weight loss for blood pressure reduction in children have been demonstrated in both observational and interventional studies. Obesity in childhood should be considered a chronic medical condition that is likely to require long-term management. Ultimately, prevention of obesity and its complications, including hypertension, is the goal.

http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/40/4/441.short



Complications

Left ventricular hypertrophy changes both the structure and function of the chamber:

The enlarged muscle loses elasticity and stiffens, preventing the chamber from filling properly and leading to increased pressure in the heart.
The enlarged muscle tissue compresses its own blood vessels (coronary arteries) and may restrict its own supply of blood.
The overworked muscle weakens.
Complications that can occur as a result of these problems include:

Inability of your heart to pump enough blood to your body (heart failure)
Abnormal heart rhythm (arrhythmia)
Insufficient supply of oxygen to the heart (ischemic heart disease)
Interruption of blood supply to the heart (heart attack)
Sudden, unexpected loss of heart function, breathing and consciousness (sudden cardiac arrest)

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/left-ventricular-hypertrophy/DS00680/METHOD=print&DSECTION=all

monicalosesweight

They should have two different camping events with varying types of exercise. I heard this camp included some high risk activities that might be dangerous to us who can't pull our weight like Rock Climbing and 50 mile hikes (suspect this has to be an error on the web site - that's awful long). They supposedly announce the whole thing a year in advance to let the kids get into shape so the kids have time to prepare. I think they are probably just making sure no one gets hurt as the activities are pretty tough. I know I don't think I'd be ready to handle some of those. The mistake is that they need a different camp event for kids who want to get in shape with light hikes and maybe activities that are due able. I'd say if you're heavy but fit, there probably were ways to pass a physical with a doc to get into this event. They are just trying to look out for the kids as this is not a typical camping event - it sounds like a high level sport activity.

CyberEd312

You know... they could have just created two separate programs with different levels of physical demand. Then, the kids could opt in to the program they wanted to perform, get a special badge for whichever they complete, and then the more physically demanding program would be something the kids could train and strive for the next year.

The Jamboree is completely optional. There are a million other boy scout camps all scouts can go to. think of the jamboree as for "all stars" or something. Not everyone is a starter or first string.

Also, while I don't think BMI is a great health indicate, keep in mind overweight starts at 25 and they are limiting kids with a BMI of over 40! that's 250 pounds for someone who is 5'6".

Lol I like how you just say it is completely optional like these kids don't aspire to go to nationals and if you are truly into scouting and are striving to become an eagle scout then you are striving to go to these events as much if not more than just going for 2 weeks to camp Lakota during the summer (this was my camp every summer while I was in the boy scouts) but national events was something I was always striving to attend. I was 5 ft 1 in. and 240 in the 6th grade, I was a 4 sport kid then and by my senior year I was just like Hoss... I played my junior and senior year on both lines (O and D) at 287 lbs. and ran distance in track and played baseball (catcher). I could run circles around kids half my size but my whole point is had they enforced this criteria back then I would have been excluded from attending those national events based on a BullSh#t BMI scale that had no bearing whatsoever on my ability to attend.... I would have no issues with some sort of PT testing, it would be no different than what scouting is all about which was teaching kids to take on challenges and complete them. Working towards the completion of merit badges was what made scouting fun.... but not allowing these kids the opportunity to attend based on a flawed chart is just wrong in my opinion..... Heck I have lost 312 lbs. and am still considered Obese category 1 by the BMI....

SpeSHul_SnoflEHk

They should have two different camping events with varying types of exercise. I heard this camp included some high risk activities that might be dangerous to us who can't pull our weight like Rock Climbing and 50 mile hikes (suspect this has to be an error on the web site - that's awful long). They supposedly announce the whole thing a year in advance to let the kids get into shape so the kids have time to prepare. I think they are probably just making sure no one gets hurt as the activities are pretty tough. I know I don't think I'd be ready to handle some of those. The mistake is that they need a different camp event for kids who want to get in shape with light hikes and maybe activities that are due able. I'd say if you're heavy but fit, there probably were ways to pass a physical with a doc to get into this event. They are just trying to look out for the kids as this is not a typical camping event - it sounds like a high level sport activity.

Nope. 50 miles is prefectly understandable. Just not in a single day.

MsMuniz

:noway:

Joreanasaurous

From a practical stand point I get the logic. From an emotional stand point all I can think is: "Way to go BS. Since you can't publicly hate the gays anymore, let's pick on the fat kids instead."

tonicandgin

ridiculous and discriminatory decision based off an inaccurate measurement tool

CyberEd312

They should have two different camping events with varying types of exercise. I heard this camp included some high risk activities that might be dangerous to us who can't pull our weight like Rock Climbing and 50 mile hikes (suspect this has to be an error on the web site - that's awful long). They supposedly announce the whole thing a year in advance to let the kids get into shape so the kids have time to prepare. I think they are probably just making sure no one gets hurt as the activities are pretty tough. I know I don't think I'd be ready to handle some of those. The mistake is that they need a different camp event for kids who want to get in shape with light hikes and maybe activities that are due able. I'd say if you're heavy but fit, there probably were ways to pass a physical with a doc to get into this event. They are just trying to look out for the kids as this is not a typical camping event - it sounds like a high level sport activity.

Nope. 50 miles is prefectly understandable. Just not in a single day.

Yeah 50 miles is a bit much in one day at that age, I went through 17 weeks of OSET training in the US Army and on graduation week as part of our Fitness test we had to hike 16 miles in full BDU's carrying a 65 pound ruck sack in under 6 hours and we trained for17 weeks to be able to do that so I can't imagine 50 miles......

Not_Pictured

I'm still wondering why people think it's okay for their children to be so obese? If your child is fat, why haven't you done anything to help your child lose weight?

SpeSHul_SnoflEHk

From a practical stand point I get the logic. From an emotional stand point all I can think is: "Way to go BS. Since you can't publicly hate the gays anymore, let's pick on the fat kids instead."

A lot of people are saying this, but this rule has been in effect for longer than the BSA has been allowing gay members.

SpeSHul_SnoflEHk

They should have two different camping events with varying types of exercise. I heard this camp included some high risk activities that might be dangerous to us who can't pull our weight like Rock Climbing and 50 mile hikes (suspect this has to be an error on the web site - that's awful long). They supposedly announce the whole thing a year in advance to let the kids get into shape so the kids have time to prepare. I think they are probably just making sure no one gets hurt as the activities are pretty tough. I know I don't think I'd be ready to handle some of those. The mistake is that they need a different camp event for kids who want to get in shape with light hikes and maybe activities that are due able. I'd say if you're heavy but fit, there probably were ways to pass a physical with a doc to get into this event. They are just trying to look out for the kids as this is not a typical camping event - it sounds like a high level sport activity.

Nope. 50 miles is prefectly understandable. Just not in a single day.

Yeah 50 miles is a bit much in one day at that age, I went through 17 weeks of OSET training in the US Army and on graduation week as part of our Fitness test we had to hike 16 miles in full BDU's carrying a 65 pound ruck sack in under 6 hours and we trained for17 weeks to be able to do that so I can't imagine 50 miles......

Yeah. I dount any of them would be laden with a 65 pound pack. They are probably a little more casually dressed as well. The capstone of the Hiking merit badge is a continuous 20 miler with only short rest stops and one meal stop. No time limits on that. Last time I took teh kids on teh 20 miler, it was about an 8-9 hour hike.