WOMEN AGES 50+ FOR JANUARY 2017
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OK. Trying once again to post my bio. This time I have it saved in another window so if it goes away I won't lose it all.
In November of 2011 I hit my highest weight of 350 lbs. I joined Weight Watchers for the 7th or 8th time. Weight Watchers worked the best for mewhich is why I kept going back. It gave me a structure I found easy to follow. Problem was that I would eventually fall off the WW wagon and regain all that I had lost plus a few added pounds.
In addition to joining WW I started working with a therapist to work on my emotional eating issues. I also hired a Personal Trainer to keep me motivated to work out. Over 6 months I lost 20 lbs. Then I slowly regained 10 of those lbs. even though I was doing the same things I had been doing when I lost the weight. 16 months later I was holding steady at 10 lbs. lost so I decided it was time to see a doctor who specialized in weight loss.
March 2013 I started seeing a weight loss doctor. He ran a number of tests to make sure I didn’t have any underlying problems that were causing my weight issues. No reasons for weight gains, but my blood sugar had risen to the point where I was diabetic and I was put on metformin to control my blood sugar. My BP was no longer under control with medication and I was put on a second BP med. Add to that the fact that my knees were getting worse and I had problems walking from the parking lot into work every day and I was a pretty miserable person. Meanwhile, I had lost 20 lbs. in the first 3 months of working with the weight loss doctor and was slowly starting to gain it back. He suggested that since his methods weren’t working after 6 months that it was time to consider bariatric surgery. I informed him quite emphatically that the reason I was working with him was because I didn’t want to have surgery. He told me that there are some people for whom the only answer is surgery and that he thought I was probably one of them. He asked me to at least attend an information session to learn what surgery entailed. I agreed to do that much.
So I investigated surgery options and decided to have Roux-en-Y aka gastric bypass.
The greatest thing about losing this excess weight is the benefits to my health. Within 3 days of the surgery my blood sugar became normal and has not gone up since then so no more blood sugar meds. After 3 months I stopped one of my BP meds and got off the second one 6 months after surgery. While my knees are still stiff if I sit for too long, they don’t hurt like they once used to and I can walk up and down stairs. I no longer worry if the parking spaces closest to the building are all taken and have even been known to park in the farthest spot so I have a longer walk on nice days. Yes I must take supplements now – a multivitamin and calcium daily, and B12 once a week. However I took supplements pre-surgery, and what I take now is far less than I used to take so I consider that a win as well.
In Feb of 2016 I had my 2 year check up with my surgeon. I weighed 200lbs. I was sad that according to my BMI I was obese. My doctor told me that BMI is not always the best measurement for all people. He quite specifically did not want me to get down to what would be normal for me. He was concerned that it would be too low and would be unhealthy as well as too difficult to maintain. He suggested that it might be time to look at surgery to remove my excess skin since I was concerned about specific places where I wanted to lose a bit more weight.
May 2016 I had an abdominplasty and liposuction on my thighs together with thigh tightening. While I was back at work in 2 weeks as opposed to 4 weeks after my bypass surgery, the recovery has been much slower than from the bypass surgery. The wounds themselves are fully healed. I still am not back to lifting the weight I was able to lift prior to the surgery. However, 2 weeks ago I finally moved back up to 15 lb on my bicep curls and I now can do squats where I was not able to do them pre-surgery so I'm pretty pleased with my progress.
The surgery in May removed 20 lbs of skin/fat. Afterwards I lost another 5 lbs. so I am now quite literally half the woman I used to be. I love being able to say that.
So there you have my weight loss story. You might wonder why I am here if I have managed to reach my weight loss goal. Well, I did not give you my full weight gain story of how I got to be 350 lbs. in the first place. Suffice it to say that particular journey is riddled with many weight loss attempts followed by gaining everything lost plus some. To successfully keep the weight off I need to continue to track my food and exercise. I cannot say "Ta Da! I'm done." and go back to my old eating habits. Having a support group to report my successes and failures and to help keep me motivated to keep going is very important to me. People in this group have become friends that I count on to cheer me on and to give me a reality check when I need it. I can only hope that I give back as much as I receive from here.7 -
Hello Ladies!
Son safely arrived back in Nashville a little bit ago. Guess he had extreme pain in his eye while descending that's slowly improving but still with him?? I'm hoping it's not the onset of a migraine. (Newbies ... younger son has a chronic migraine history that has been better since being away at school.) Hate being so far away from my baby but also really wishing he didn't always text with every problem when I'm so far away. Does that make me a bad mother?
Coconut oil ... are you ladies using the same stuff that is available for cooking? I deal with dry skin but want to make sure I'm not slathering myself with the wrong product!
Chia seeds ... so WTH am I supposed to do with these things? I made vanilla chia pudding with almond milk that promptly went to the trash ... kind of like eating fish sperm ...
Older son is home with us for a few more days ... staff issues again. (Newbies ... son is physically disabled but lives independently ... rents a home ... receives state services that enable him to hire aides to care for him.)
Stayed on track today with my calories ... the chia kind of took my appetite away for the rest of the day.
Beth near Buffalo
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Pip, Kirby is a good man!
Sherry, it just pleases my heart so to see you here. I am sorry you are in the position you are but you a survivor and will thrive where God puts you. Missy will make her way back to you also and what I great idea of making her a companion pet so that she can never be taken away from you. I'm proud of you girl.
I think it was Peach who had a picture of 2 kids in the snow. The girl reminded me of my grand daughter Ellie. I bought her a big red bowl sled like that for Christmas. Since it snowed here last week, I am sure it snowed where she lives about the same. I don't know of any hills around her but I am sure she really pushed her Dad to find some where for her to use her new red sled.
Who is having the baby shower? 35 people?????? That is a big shower. And I love the theme and all the food. So neat.
Well Michelle's birthday was Dec 1oth and we always take her out to her favorite place to eat. We already had bought her present but Dec 10th was the day I had my first nose bleed and in the hospital for 6 days. And then 2 days after I got home all the back problems. So we kind of missed her birthday. So tonight we took her out to one of her favorite Mexican places. It is one of the more authentic ones in town. They have a nice a la carte menu and you don't have to buy a full meal. I like the chicken chimichanga and I have it without all the different cheese sauces it comes with. She wanted a Dairy Queen ice cream cake. It has been a long time since I ordered an ice cream cake. When we went to pick one out they were like $30!!!!! They did have a blizzard cake for $12.99 so that is what we got. It wasn't what she usually ate but she didn't complain because Michelle never complains. We got to talking about the back problems that we have all got from my Mother. She said it seems like every generation it hits at an earlier age. She also talked about children and she said that she doesn't want to pass that heredity on to her children and it's one of the reasons she doesn't have children. When she was married, her husband was an extreme risk taker with their money and his life as far as driving. He was the same when he was in Iraq for two trips. He took one of the Army's humvees out for a joy ride and totaled it! So she said she didn't want to me a single widowed mother. Charlie thinks that is the reason Dan cheated on her because he wanted children. We will never know.
Joyce, Indiana1 -
Hello Ladies
to any Newbies. Come often and join in the chat. This thing works!! Please sign your post with what you want to be called. It makes it easier for us to respond to you. Also a location is great, be it specific or general. We are happy to have you join us.
Sending love, good thoughts and sunshine to all of you.
I Love you
DJ
Myrtle Beach, SC
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Mia thank you for sharing your story, we love hearing of your great success. You look terrific and are an inspiration.
As you know I had the same surgery in December 2013 and lost 125 pounds. The weight loss was quick, certainly not what I would call easy. No amount of surgery removes the emotions that caused the over eating in the first place. I too am here for support and a daily reminder that I have the knowledge and tools to keep the weight off and for the encouragement and support of a terrific group of friends.
We are so glad you are back and doing well.
Janetr okc1 -
Joyce - thanks hun! I do have a certain kind of tenacity, don't you think??
Hope everyone is enjoying the Minions posts! Lol!!
Time for dinner, I'm starved!! Plus I have to charge my tablet, lol!! Be back later, love ya!!
Sherry1 -
Hi Gals,
NYKaren – sending good thoughts for DH and a job
Lisa – love you being the philosopher
Joyce – what insight your daughter has my mom has a friend with hereditary breast cancer, and all 5 of her girls have chosen to not have bio-kids, but some have adopted. And if no bio kids is the reason he cheated – that shows a lot about him and its not flattering….
Mia – thanks for your bio I don’t think I had heard that all…
January Goals:
Write Christmas letter, and have all cards ready to send by Dec1…this was for nov. but still working on it. Jan. still working on this….**** GET THIS DONE*******
Read and report on a book –
Log everyday to the best I can, over if need be.
11,000 + steps everyday –
Work on water consumption –
Lunch with Kyle -
Smiles.
Kim from N. California
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Just a quick hello to the lot of yas! (((((group hugs))))))
Sooooo I have an Amazon tablet, and even though I can't get on the community tab, I can log my food in and post on my home page ok. For some reason our wireless connections aren't working, so the computer is the only one connected to wifi. So I have just spent the last 10 minutes, updating the food diary on here from what I put on my little tablet. I guess there is enough memory so I can log food without the use of being online. It's nice to "figure" out foods that will make my pie chart happy. It's like a puzzle. I add a food, check the nutritional pie chart and see that I have too much carbs, and not enough protein. So then I delete that choice and add another, looking up its nutritional values. This dang notepad is takin me to sckool!!! For the ladies that are notorious at spelling, just don't read that last sentence... Heehee....
Becca
getting slimmer by the minute in
Oregon3 -
What a new liver can do for someone. Isn't the transformation incredible?? My guy
Becca
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Hi all.....
looking for a great group that I can join for support laughter tears whatever life throws at us
Been here a long time still working on trying to get weight off. Have 3 auto immune disorders, high cholesterol, Fibromyalgia pre diabetic so my Endo sent me to dietician and they have me scared to death! I'm slowly cutting out all simple sugars as well as fried foods ...they told me no more sweet tea, no more yummy coffee creamer... so I'm here trying to figure out what I can eat...drink etc and logging. Need some supportive friends.... I'll motivate others as well. I'm Candy-Georgia 5 -
Heather – You are a ‘great’ friend to have … to sit with a friend who is going through terminal cancer treatments. You’re right to be there in the event she brings up the subject of death. Pray with her or for her, if that is what she wants … she talks about ‘whatever’ she might believe in … then ‘listen’ and maybe tell her how your ‘faith’ has given you peace. I’m no longer afraid of death; I just do not want to ‘suffer’ doing it. But, we certainly don't have any control over that, for sure. I’ve come close to death … they talk about the light at the end of the tunnel … I’ve been close enough to that and I’ve seen people who have died before me that I love … as I remembered them; but, I also knew that dying (at that time) would have killed my parents, especially my Daddy. I also believe that a person can die of a ‘broken heart’. I think that is exactly what happened to Debbie Reynolds. I think it is important for a person to be with them when they do pass away. If nothing more than to just hold their hand, or put their hand on them. They will know when it is time to let go. Even ‘if’ they are on morphine. I remember laying my head on the pillow beside my mother’s head … twirling her hair and talking to her, telling her things I remember – the ‘good things’ … always. I apologized to her and I accepted her unspoken apology. Then she stopped breathing … I raised my head up and both my sisters came running over asking ‘what happened’. She just stopped breathing … she’s gone. She did not ‘gasp for air’ she did not struggle … it was like she saw ‘Daddy and was then ready to go through that gate and be with him’.
Earlier in the week she had told one of the ladies at the Assisted Living Facility she was in, that when she fell asleep at night ... ‘she kept seeing the gate opening and shutting; but, she could not go through it … she was not ready to “Fly Away” …’. “I'll Fly Away” is a song that give me peace. Unfortunately, she died right before Christmas and my oldest sister told the funeral director to tell the woman singing at the memorial service to pick a Christmas Carol to sing. To this day, I burst into tears when I hear it. Silent Night. That is all you can do … take her cue, let her talk. Love her through it. There are a whole lot of books and there have been a lot of movies made, of late, about Heaven. It's real ... that is my faith and I will welcome it when it comes my time to go. I might be a 'fighter' and my DH knows this; but, if my life on earth is to be hooked up to machines ... take me off them and let me go. When my Daddy died, my Mother suddenly woke up from taking a nap, got in the car and drove to the hospital. She pushed the door and then nurses tried to keep her out (they were preparing him to be taken to the funeral home) and she told them to 'leave the room'. She sat with him for nearly 2 hours ... and said that 'for the first time in nearly 6 months; he had a peaceful look on his face'. I think it took her that long to let go. She knew where he was going to be and she knew that she'd see him again'. She did. No doubt about it.
Rori – I know you and Charleen must have had a ‘ball’ together!
Mia – You have and you do! Continue chatting with us … we love you ‘attitude with gratitude’. Love you!
Beth – No, that does not make you a bad mother hoping that he would not inform you about every issue he is going through. I miss my ‘baby’ too and have so far - in excess of 10 years. He is ‘his own man’ and ‘now with a family of his own’. He checks in with his Dad to make sure that he’s ‘ok’; talks to our oldest son … a lot of the time; but, when he calls home in the ‘middle of the day’ … he is checking up ‘on me’. We called to wish them “Happy New Year” on his cell phone and he was so sick I just told him, ‘Goodbye, we’ll talk to you later, love you’ and hung up. We talked to them a few days later. He had been one sick puppy; but, he was being well taken care of by DDnL#2 (who had been sick back in December). She was still coughing. She said that when he coughed up 'phlegm' it would make he throw up. I told her, 'now would be a good time to give up those cigarettes' ... she said, 'he already has'. Even before he got sick. This sealed the deal.
The coconut oil I bought was at the grocery store, it comes in a jar (about 3” in diameter); about 3 ½ inches tall, it is semi-solid (sort of) more opaque that solid white. If it gets too soupy while in the jar; turn it over and shake it and then find a cooler place to store it. You can rub it on, mix it in a drink, stir it into food, and cook with it. You can Google all the uses for it. I'm just not too wild about doing much with it than putting it on my body. You can also put it in your mouth and squish it through your teeth; but, do NOT spit it out in the sink or toilet (it will stop them up). Spit it into a trashcan (or into paper to put in the trashcan). It helps whiten you teeth and helps with dry mouth. Chia seeds … eating fish sperm? Or eggs? LOL!!!!! I’ve eaten fish eggs (caviar and roe); fish sperm? Is that the same thing as “Fish Oil” … which is HORRIBLE! Burp it up for days, and still taste the ‘fishy’ taste.
Lenora
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Heather: You are courageous and a good friend.
Rori & Charleen: I thought I recognized the teahouse. I've been there with DD and DH. It is a beautiful place. I'm so glad you shared the photo of you two. :flowerforyou:
Jaja99: Comfortable shoes are wonderful no matter how they look. Remember the old saying, "beauty is as beauty does"? Shoes that hurt are NOT cute. :noway:
Pip: Persistence pays off. I'm glad you're getting a full refund and that your repairs will be at a reasonable price. Yay!!! :bigsmile:
Sherry: Thanks a minion back-atcha! It is good to see you posting again.
Mia: You have an interesting story. I am also here for the support and friendship. I've reached my weight goals, but I know that I need to continue to follow the healthy habits that I learned right here. I log my food and exercise, and visit with the best women around. I am glad you're back.
Becca: Your guy looks healthy and happy. Yay!!!
Candy-Georgia: See if your medical team will let you use stevia. It has its own sweetness, is natural and a healthy alternative to the artificial sweeteners that are on the market. I use it in my coffee and enjoy it. Stevia and Truvia are not the same thing. Truvia contains Stevia, but also contains other chemicals. It is a product of the cola companies, as I understand it. Do your research, give it a try, and see what you think.
sheshappynow: Welcome. :flowerforyou:
Yoga tomorrow! Yay!!! I hope the road conditions are good enough that I can go.
Katla in Beautiful NW Oregon
Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!" -Audrey Hepburn
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Went shopping today and bought myself 4 new vests and 2 long sleeve shirts. Really great buy on the vests with all the various markdowns on them they were only $14 each. I have had only a black one that I have worn almost everyday since I started back to work. It's either hot or cold in the bldg so i do a lot of on off zip unzip. At least now I can do it in color!
Breaking my 11 o'clock to bed this month but really wanted to finish reading and log my food and exercise.
See you all tomorrow - well technically today since it's now 1:30.
hope my new pillow helps me sleep better.
Gloria in WA
My word for the year is FORGIVENESS, starting with me!
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morning ladies~
slept 10 1/2 hrs
the boys(dogs)came in the living room and snuggled up with me..they are still there...
Only thing sleeping on the floor on a futon is trying to get up off of it lol.. my left knee is all swollen from crawling around on the hardwood floor putting my bed together Saterday.. so trying to roll over and kneel to get up hurts like the dickens...
freezing cold here down in the teens but nice and toasty in the house...
my brother and everyone else is pushing me to get this divorce on the move.. well I am trying to do this with a open mind and get everything together before I do...
trying to just let the dogs go out in the back yard,dont want them out on the road with the salt getting on there paws2 -
Hi Lenora - I know you mean well and I am glad that you have such a strong, supportive faith, but I am an atheist. Having said that, I do have my own strong convictions, which are based on a Humanist, scientific and Stoic tradition. I also find a lot in the Buddhist traditions without the metaphysics. I have done a lot of reading in all these areas and I find my mind calm and happy regarding my convictions. They serve me very well and also, I believe, my close circle and the wider world. I have a strong appreciation of morality and love. Science is a never ceasing wonder to me. I am curious about everything and fascinated by the history of religion, about which I have read a great deal. Knowledge is power.
I hope I will have the strength to be with my friend in whatever way she wants me to be. I think she does have some kind of a belief in a God, though I'm not sure what form that takes. We all, I think, fear the ending of our lives, even those with a strong faith and the hope of heaven, which has always puzzled me. I have recently been studying our different approaches and attitudes to death and it is giving me more resilience.
My friend has two sons, both married, and one grandson. She has recently published her autobiography, which is excellent. On Amazon. "Loose Connections" by Maleika Rose Stanley. Her life story is fascinating.
I am sad that she will soon be gone from my life, maybe this year. It will leave a huge hole for me. Those of you who have been on this thread for a while will know that my female friends are of major importance in my life. She has been one of those few to whom I can tell everything and share both victories and defeats, celebrations and shame. I will miss her hugely.
Love to all of you, whatever your faith, whatever your way of life, whatever .......... We all share in this "being human" business.
Heather UK xxxxxxx10 -
Wanted to share the 2 loves in my life, my son Mike, and Jake, my rescue dog, who has rescued me.
Everyone have a wonderful day.
Chris in MA13 -
Chris, Becca, such loving pictures of your loved ones!
Heather, my heart goes out to you as you deal with your friend's illness.
While I've seldom, if ever, feared my own death, losing those I love is an ongoing fear. And, since I've been in a philosophical mode already this week, I'll lay this one on y'all. I've been using it as a guided process ever since I found out about the whole thyroid thing, and it's helping. Please do not pound on my pointy little head about the religious overtones; the book it comes from is science fiction, and it is not from a religion, or at least not from an existing one.“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.” Frank Herbert - Dune.
I'm neither suggesting it for anyone, nor proposing it as a remedy. But what I've allowed it to do is help me sit down for ten minutes, repeat it either aloud or silently, and get up with my mind at peace. Getting my mind out of the "what if" hamster wheel has been enormously helpful.
Off to work out as soon as my MP3 player is fully charged...
Love y'all,
Lisa in West Texas - back up to 78 degrees today and 70s all week long.
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Heather, big (((hugs))) and lots of love to you during this heart breaking time you are facing with your dear friend. You are a true and caring friend, few of us are lucky enough to know such a friendship.
Chris in MA your "loves" are very handsome. Thanks for sharing. It's so nice to see your posts once again.
Janetr okc0 -
The only one I saw was the Rowan Atkins one. Going to have to look for the others!
Rita0 -
Woke up to 0 degrees and dog messes all over the house. Don't know why the messes. They had outside access all day yesterday??? One good thing is that it got me up early. One messed my bedspread, so washing that. Even though all I want to do is stay in bed, my 3 pups and DH have other ideas for me!
Love the Minion pics Sheri! So glad you are back! We tough cookies must stick together!
Allie, in your own time.
Slowly improving mood. I keep reminding myself that no matter what happens to me, there is always some who is worse off than me.
DH is talking about RV living so watched the Robin Williams movie called RV yesterday. Funny, not realistic, but some stuff like emptying the tanks and neighbors making him think. I am all for it, but I am not sure DH will like the tight quarters, or the small kitchen, or lack of storage..... lots of research first.
Rita from frigid CT3 -
Heather - Well, religious, or not - to each his own. I won't deny what I truly believe; but, I do understand that others do not have the same viewpoint. Some people are very 'spiritual' and most believe in some sort of Higher Power, which should be 'good'; not radical. It's not my job to try to convince anyone to change to my beliefs. Just be there for your friend, that is the important thing ... to listen and not judge. What I believe is to be honest and not be hurtful. I've been told on so many levels that I have been 'wrong' about things. I've offered apologies, when I thought it was required; I have not when I thought it would 'go against what is important to me'. I know I've been 'blocked'; and, I have also done the same with a couple. But, that certainly does not mean that I am upset by something that someone disagrees with me about, it just means I don't have to be subjected to it. I cannot make anyone accept an apology - even when it was directed at them in a couple of ways. I'm sorry they have been what I consider 'divisive'; I'm sorry that some think that I have been. This is an 'open' thread and we're all different, we all fail or succeed; and most of all, we try to encourage each other in our goals, no matter what they are.
I certainly do not understand a lot of what some are going through; but, I do understand, or I'm trying to understand and accept what is part of my life, something that 'makes me, be me'. Most everything that people have shared here has touched me in some form or the other. But, I am on 'my own path' and I do things, some right, some wrong ... but, what is working for me, is the most important thing to me and/or my family. Which is my strongest ally.
Lenora0 -
Just started MFP - I'm 52 and need to lose 60 lbs. I had no idea MFP was so easy and so informative, I'm pretty blown away. I've lost 3 lbs this week. Hopefully I can stay with it, that's the hardest part right? Any advice is welcome thanks for the thread! 2
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Heather - On losing a friend; the most important thing is to be 'grateful' that she was 'in your life' for whatever length of time - and she moved you in certain ways, and you did the same for her. Some people are 'in our lives but for a short period' and each and everyone of them have made a difference that cannot be discounted. Sometimes we are separated from the people in our lives, either through death or a change of perspective that pulls you away from one another ... divorces, empty nesters ... but, that doesn't mean you love them any less; you just have to realize that children grow up and leave home, friends move or die, and that, that was once in your life are gone, maybe because of divorces or getting out of relationships because it is 'time to do so'. Or working through issues, no matter how difficult they are. Whether someone agrees or not. Only 'you' (and I mean all of us) can make decisions, hopefully with much thought and test our wings even when we don't think they'll work properly. Faith = "First you jump; then the net appears." Occasionally, we will 'face-plant' when we do 'jump'; but, there is nothing holding you down, that you cannot stand up, brush off your knees, hold your head up high, and move on. At some point in our lives ... we need to take time to 'grieve' what we've lost and sometimes that takes a long time, sometimes it is quicker because we know what the separation is and what was meant to be. I know that getting older, for myself, my husband, my family and friends ... I realize that a time will come when we are no longer together - an illness can change so many things. Or sometimes 'miracles' do occur. I've seen a 'miracle' ... insofar as my DBnL was about 4 hours away from dying; and, he has almost been totally healed. He had a stroke, he has to go through PT/OT ... but all 3 times they operated on him ... it was always possible that he would not survive the surgeries. He'd wake up, talk to my sister and my nieces. Respond to them the way he should. My niece posted daily on CaringBridge.come - keeping family and friend apprised of what was going on, and when 'special requests' were made, prayers were said and answered. God provided for them in their need, each and every time. Several times, they were 'funny posts', such as 'they would be whispering when they thought he was asleep' and he would answer them properly as if he was 'sitting in on the conversation' ... this coming from a man who wears hearing aids in both ears ... and still had to ask, 'what did she say'? I know what he went through has changed so many lives ... even his surgeons; who told his family that he had the most extensive, difficult bleed than any of them had ever seen in their practices ... and for him to make the progress he did without too many deficiencies was, indeed, a miracle. He has some weakness in his arms and legs; but, his mind is still just as sharp as it was before he had the stroke. PT/OT will help make him stronger and it is possible that he will have a 'total and complete' recovery.
Most all my adult working life, I worked in a career where I saw the 'hurt', the 'betrayal', and the 'strength' it takes to 'change everything that has been a part of your life' ... time still 'marches on'. We can sit back, assess the circumstances, and move 'on our own time' ... even when people 'think we should do something right NOW'.
Lenora1
This discussion has been closed.
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