If lifting is the way to get that 'toned' look, then why...?
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People "see" what they want to see. That's why lifters "look" bulging and runners "look" toned to OP.2
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rainbowbow wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »I keep reading that the only way to get that sought-after 'lean, tight, toned' look is in fact to lift heavy and that muscles cannot be 'toned' or 'tightened,' they can only get bigger. But if this is true, then why do the women who lift that I know have bulging arm muscles, big thighs (muscular, but still), big butts, etc, while the runners and yogi and dancer women I know who have never touched weights have the lean, tight, toned look I want, and a completely different look altogether--narrow hips, thin legs, etc? Their muscles don't look big, they just look tight. Even if they aren't particularly thin...they have visible muscles, but not boxy ones like the lifters. We can't deny that the type of exercise you do matters--it's obvious that swimmer bodies are different from, say, runner bodies. So why do people claim that lifting is the only way to get that look?
what look.
because it sounds like you and i have very different ideas about what is/is not an ideal look.
I think what OP is saying that when women post here about desiring that specific lean, narrow, slim-thighed look (the Victoria's Secret special, basically) the answer given is always LIFT HEAVY and she feels that anecdotally, the women she sees who have that shape don't lift and the ones who do have a shape she doesn't find desirable.
I'm not touching whether or not any of that is objectively true or whatever, just trying to clarify as I think I understand what the OP was trying to say based on her own observations.
oh, well i don't think anyone advises to lift heavy if you want to look like a victoria's secret angel. That's why i was asking.
You acheive a dancer look by being... a dancer. Or a model by training like a model. ..And eating low calories of course.
Eh, I've seen it plenty of times around here tbh. I mean, whatever, my anecdote doesn't cancel yours etc, but I have for sure seen it thrown around on a lot of threads where women are pretty clear that they don't want anything to get any larger.
I really don't have a horse in this race or anything as I'm neither a lifter nor dancer/model, and I don't really have strong feelings on what other people's aesthetic goals should be, but I don't think OP is out to lunch in respect to feeling like "lift heavy" is kind of default advice.2 -
But this is an excellent point- she's really not that big.
She's fairly defined- but she's not actually that big. She's quite tiny. Her muscles aren't even what I would remotely consider bulging. She's just got low body fat. (and muscles- so they look bigger)2 -
So I normally don't pay this much attention to what people look like and what they're doing at the gym, but I was there on my lunch break and I took a quick inventory. There was only one woman lifting weights. She was what I would consider quite tiny, yet when she would lift I could see the muscle definition. I believe this is what you would be referring to as long, lean muscles. Then there were eight women on various cardio machines - mostly running on the treadmill, some on bikes. 2 were what I would call "regular" - not skinny, not fat, not very muscular. 1 was definitely muscular and likely what OP is referring to as "bulky". The rest were overweight or obese.
It's actually rare that I see actually "bulky" women lifting weights. I see all types who run.
It's more about your body fat, which comes down to what/how much you are eating.1 -
Also when you say "narrow hips" that is directly related to genetics. That's bone structure.7
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All I know is that I did cardio only for years ( running, step class, kick boxing etc) and never got that toned look I wanted. The difference in my shape I got from lifting heavy was very satisfying. I definitely never looked bulky .4
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I was definitely more bulky when I was 22 lbs heavier and not lifting.6
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Also to be noted, when you are watching people lift in the gym, they're, uh, lifting, so their muscles are going to show because they're using them and there will be some pump from lifting too.
Also, most dancers now are actually about as muscular as a fitness model, particularly contemporary dancers who carry a little more bodyfat than say a bodybuilding competition lifter but less than many commercial dancers. So your perceptions of various aesthetics may not be as clear cut as you think once you throw genetics in there. Line them all up and aside from posture possibly giving some dancers away, I'm not sure you'd be able to pick out an enthusiastic 20% body fat lifter and a dancer.4 -
I suppose I could give it a try, I'm just afraid of not getting the look i want. I mean if that were to happen how do you go back from there? Also what if I finally get to the point where I have some muscle but not too much--how would I just maintain that without gaining more muscle??0
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I suppose I could give it a try, I'm just afraid of not getting the look i want. I mean if that were to happen how do you go back from there? Also what if I finally get to the point where I have some muscle but not too much--how would I just maintain that without gaining more muscle??
Stop strength training in the first scenario, don't increase weight in the second scenario.2 -
I suppose I could give it a try, I'm just afraid of not getting the look i want. I mean if that were to happen how do you go back from there? Also what if I finally get to the point where I have some muscle but not too much--how would I just maintain that without gaining more muscle??
I gave you a link to an article that answered those questions.5 -
keep in mind...
Terms like tight, toned, lean, big, bulging... those are all subjective. What you think of as big vs toned vs whatever else may or may not be what someone else means when then use those same terms. So when someone says that "____ is the best way to get big", or "to tone up you should _______"... make sure you're both talking about the same thing.
Agreed. I have a picture in mind of what I think that people who want to be "toned" are thinking about. But it doesn't necessarily match what the next person might think it is.
Same goes for bulky. People will say "women can't get bulky" because they think of this as bulky but often the woman who is saying she doesn't want to be bulky is thinking of this as bulky. There's this image floating around (which I cannot find now) that says something like "what women think lifting weights will do vs what it actually does" and I think it's meant to reassure women that lifting won't make them "bulky" but even the non-bulky woman has too much muscle in a lot of women's eyes.
Anyway, all of these terms are subjective as said above.
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I suppose I could give it a try, I'm just afraid of not getting the look i want. I mean if that were to happen how do you go back from there? Also what if I finally get to the point where I have some muscle but not too much--how would I just maintain that without gaining more muscle??
You have to consider, changes do not and will not occur over night. So you can monitor how your body will respond. And if you think you are becoming too defined, you have to gain some fat back. BTW, here is an extreme example of what happens you can gain 10 to 20 lbs of muscle, which takes a lot of years of dedication.
https://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/meet-staci-your-new-powerlifting-super-hero/3 -
keep in mind...
Terms like tight, toned, lean, big, bulging... those are all subjective. What you think of as big vs toned vs whatever else may or may not be what someone else means when then use those same terms. So when someone says that "____ is the best way to get big", or "to tone up you should _______"... make sure you're both talking about the same thing.
Agreed. I have a picture in mind of what I think that people who want to be "toned" are thinking about. But it doesn't necessarily match what the next person might think it is.
Same goes for bulky. People will say "women can't get bulky" because they think of this as bulky but often the woman who is saying she doesn't want to be bulky is thinking of this as bulky. There's this image floating around (which I cannot find now) that says something like "what women think lifting weights will do vs what it actually does" and I think it's meant to reassure women that lifting won't make them "bulky" but even the non-bulky woman has too much muscle in a lot of women's eyes.
Anyway, all of these terms are subjective as said above.
Yes, that one!
While I would be happy to have the muscle mass of the women on the right, not all women would want even that amount. To them, that could be too bulky.3 -
keep in mind...
Terms like tight, toned, lean, big, bulging... those are all subjective. What you think of as big vs toned vs whatever else may or may not be what someone else means when then use those same terms. So when someone says that "____ is the best way to get big", or "to tone up you should _______"... make sure you're both talking about the same thing.
Agreed. I have a picture in mind of what I think that people who want to be "toned" are thinking about. But it doesn't necessarily match what the next person might think it is.
Same goes for bulky. People will say "women can't get bulky" because they think of this as bulky but often the woman who is saying she doesn't want to be bulky is thinking of this as bulky. There's this image floating around (which I cannot find now) that says something like "what women think lifting weights will do vs what it actually does" and I think it's meant to reassure women that lifting won't make them "bulky" but even the non-bulky woman has too much muscle in a lot of women's eyes.
Anyway, all of these terms are subjective as said above.
Yes, that one!
While I would be happy to have the muscle mass of the women on the right, not all women would want even that amount. To them, that could be too bulky.
To add, to get that lean on the right, it takes a lot of time. To get the results on the left, it takes a lot of time and a lot of drugs...
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keep in mind...
Terms like tight, toned, lean, big, bulging... those are all subjective. What you think of as big vs toned vs whatever else may or may not be what someone else means when then use those same terms. So when someone says that "____ is the best way to get big", or "to tone up you should _______"... make sure you're both talking about the same thing.
Agreed. I have a picture in mind of what I think that people who want to be "toned" are thinking about. But it doesn't necessarily match what the next person might think it is.
Same goes for bulky. People will say "women can't get bulky" because they think of this as bulky but often the woman who is saying she doesn't want to be bulky is thinking of this as bulky. There's this image floating around (which I cannot find now) that says something like "what women think lifting weights will do vs what it actually does" and I think it's meant to reassure women that lifting won't make them "bulky" but even the non-bulky woman has too much muscle in a lot of women's eyes.
Anyway, all of these terms are subjective as said above.
Yes, that one!
While I would be happy to have the muscle mass of the women on the right, not all women would want even that amount. To them, that could be too bulky.
To add, to get that lean on the right, it takes a lot of time. To get the results on the left, it takes a lot of time and a lot of drugs...
i mean, jamie eason has been at the game a really really long time. i dont think her results are "what you can expect". I mean, we're talking top of the game physiques here.0 -
rainbowbow wrote: »keep in mind...
Terms like tight, toned, lean, big, bulging... those are all subjective. What you think of as big vs toned vs whatever else may or may not be what someone else means when then use those same terms. So when someone says that "____ is the best way to get big", or "to tone up you should _______"... make sure you're both talking about the same thing.
Agreed. I have a picture in mind of what I think that people who want to be "toned" are thinking about. But it doesn't necessarily match what the next person might think it is.
Same goes for bulky. People will say "women can't get bulky" because they think of this as bulky but often the woman who is saying she doesn't want to be bulky is thinking of this as bulky. There's this image floating around (which I cannot find now) that says something like "what women think lifting weights will do vs what it actually does" and I think it's meant to reassure women that lifting won't make them "bulky" but even the non-bulky woman has too much muscle in a lot of women's eyes.
Anyway, all of these terms are subjective as said above.
Yes, that one!
While I would be happy to have the muscle mass of the women on the right, not all women would want even that amount. To them, that could be too bulky.
To add, to get that lean on the right, it takes a lot of time. To get the results on the left, it takes a lot of time and a lot of drugs...
i mean, jamie eason has been at the game a really really long time. i dont think her results are "what you can expect". I mean, we're talking top of the game physiques here.
The same goes for Staci (the powerlifter). She has a crazy story and demonstrates the extreme.. but she was also eating like 5000 calories and was working out like crazy.0 -
I suppose I could give it a try, I'm just afraid of not getting the look i want. I mean if that were to happen how do you go back from there? Also what if I finally get to the point where I have some muscle but not too much--how would I just maintain that without gaining more muscle??
If it was that easy to get huge/jacked, there would be a LOT more huge/jacked guys walking around. And guys have a lot more testosterone than women do.
You're not going to "accidentally" get too muscular. Even people who are trying to do it on purpose have to fight like hell for every ounce they gain, and it takes years to build those physiques.5 -
I suppose I could give it a try, I'm just afraid of not getting the look i want. I mean if that were to happen how do you go back from there? Also what if I finally get to the point where I have some muscle but not too much--how would I just maintain that without gaining more muscle??
I had the same hesitations as you did when I first started lifting. I don't know what your goals are exactly, but perhaps checking out Strong Curves by Bret Contreras might help. I feel like the program (well set of programs actually) gives you control over what you want and eases you into lifting. Some female lifters roll their eyes when they hear Bret Contreras, but to be honest, in my opinion, he listens to his clients and addresses their concerns accordingly. He is worth checking out.
I love lifting heavy even though I myself prefer to have a more a slender but fit/muscular look, if I find I look too muscular, it usually means I have more definition or muscle showing so I gain a bit more weight to increase my BF%. I am actually doing my second bulk at the moment, I have yet to see any bulkiness (except for maybe in the glutes where I want them, woohoo).
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I suppose I could give it a try, I'm just afraid of not getting the look i want. I mean if that were to happen how do you go back from there? Also what if I finally get to the point where I have some muscle but not too much--how would I just maintain that without gaining more muscle??
Instead of trying something you're not sure about (lifting), why not start taking some dance or yoga classes first? It seems like you might enjoy that more than you would lifting.
You're worried about a result (getting too muscular) that would be a year (at least, and probably a LOT more) down the road, if you ever got there. Nobody accidentally gets too muscular, and it certainly doesn't happen overnight. A lot depends on your genetics -- what do the other women in your family look like? Do they have large hips or narrow hips? Do you have broad shoulders or more narrow shoulders? But even more depends on your diet and body fat percentage. A lot of the time, when women start lifting and think they suddenly start to look larger, it's because they're not controlling their diet or losing body fat. If you start with small muscles under X amount of fat, and just grow the muscles (or maybe grow the muscles AND add fat), you're going to look bigger.1 -
Are you referring to the girl on the right? Why would it take years? She's said to be 5'2" and 110 lbs. If someone is starting at the exact same weight and height and say with low body fat but not as "toned", what would be a realistic time frame to look like the image above, assuming a proper training program? Surely, 3-6 months no?I suppose I could give it a try, I'm just afraid of not getting the look i want. I mean if that were to happen how do you go back from there? Also what if I finally get to the point where I have some muscle but not too much--how would I just maintain that without gaining more muscle??
If it was that easy to get huge/jacked, there would be a LOT more huge/jacked guys walking around. And guys have a lot more testosterone than women do.
You're not going to "accidentally" get too muscular. Even people who are trying to do it on purpose have to fight like hell for every ounce they gain, and it takes years to build those physiques.0 -
Its because the cardio people you're talking about don't have big, tight, nor toned muscles. They have minimum amounts of fat covering their muscles, muscles that likely look similar to yours.
The only thing you can change visually about your muscles themselves is the size. There's nothing else.2 -
First of all, a runner does not want extra weight. As it is more taxing on the body. Now compare that to a sprinter who relies on power more than endurance. A defined physique has to do with body fat percentage. You can be muscular, and not have a defined physique.1
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Traveler120 wrote: »
Are you referring to the girl on the right? Why would it take years? She's said to be 5'2" and 110 lbs. If someone is starting at the exact same weight and height and say with low body fat but not as "toned", what would be a realistic time frame to look like the image above, assuming a proper training program? Surely, 3-6 months no?I suppose I could give it a try, I'm just afraid of not getting the look i want. I mean if that were to happen how do you go back from there? Also what if I finally get to the point where I have some muscle but not too much--how would I just maintain that without gaining more muscle??
If it was that easy to get huge/jacked, there would be a LOT more huge/jacked guys walking around. And guys have a lot more testosterone than women do.
You're not going to "accidentally" get too muscular. Even people who are trying to do it on purpose have to fight like hell for every ounce they gain, and it takes years to build those physiques.
No way. That kind of physique takes a lot of focused hard work over a long time. She has a really good muscle base.
This article addresses how long it takes to build muscle.
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/how-much-muscle-can-you-gain/
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I did ballet for 20 years and never looked like the prototypical ballerina even when i was skinny because that's not how my body developed. Your genetics also play into how you will look regardless of your specific training regimen.4
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Traveler120 wrote: »
Are you referring to the girl on the right? Why would it take years? She's said to be 5'2" and 110 lbs. If someone is starting at the exact same weight and height and say with low body fat but not as "toned", what would be a realistic time frame to look like the image above, assuming a proper training program? Surely, 3-6 months no?I suppose I could give it a try, I'm just afraid of not getting the look i want. I mean if that were to happen how do you go back from there? Also what if I finally get to the point where I have some muscle but not too much--how would I just maintain that without gaining more muscle??
If it was that easy to get huge/jacked, there would be a LOT more huge/jacked guys walking around. And guys have a lot more testosterone than women do.
You're not going to "accidentally" get too muscular. Even people who are trying to do it on purpose have to fight like hell for every ounce they gain, and it takes years to build those physiques.
3-6 months? To build that physique?
Nah. That's not going to happen. Not without elite genetics and a lot of "supplementation" (i.e. anabolic steroids).
But that clearly illustrates the kind of unrealistic expectations a lot of people have.2 -
Might I suggest something else?
My sister was a professional dancer. I knew many dancers. They aren't muscular; they are just very skinny. The reason they are very skinny is because there is HUGE pressure to stay skinny -- the skinnier the better -- and have some definition. Dancing is all about looking good to the audience. You want the part? Look the part that the director wants.
I also wouldn't say they are terribly strong, though they are fit.
More to the point, as a female dancer, you might have to be lifted. You are probably not going to be lifted very high or very well if you weigh much more than 130-135 pounds. So, what happens? There is self selection that occurs. If you are small and light, you stay in dance. If you are bigger, you eventually -- maybe pretty soon -- get the message that dance is not for you.
I think the same principle applies to runners versus weight lifters. M-a-y-b-e running makes you lean. But, maybe if you are naturally lean, running is easier for you and you are more successful; so you commit to it and stay with it. If you are bigger and bulkier, maybe running isn't as fun, especially when, if you race, you lose. So, you end up in the gym, lifting weights, where you have a more natural advantage.
Let's say that dynamic plays a role in only a third of people who do these things: it is still going to create the impression that lifters look bulky and boxy and dancers look slim and svelte.
Does lifting build muscle? Of course it does. Does running make it hard to put on mass? Most likely. But those factors may be much less important than the self-selection that leads people into the path they are on. Gym. Stage. Road. Track. Sprinter. Marathoner. Basketball. Gymnastics! (You could say volleyball clearly makes people tall and gymnastics clearly makes people small.)16 -
I'm nowhere near the level that the photo of the woman above is in. I'm 5'2" & 118-120 lbs & 48 yrs old.I've been lifting for 3 years after some years off from most exercise. Got pregnant at 42 & gained some unwanted weight for the first time.
At 30, I joined my first gym & loved lifting, though it was mostly machines. I was a child athlete; competitive ice skating & had a very physically active job for 20+ yrs. I mention all this to point out that I probably have a better base of muscle than many women start lifting with.
Me, prior to progressive lifting and now, after 3 years of StrongLifts & PHUL. 3-5x/week.
I fall into the category of smaller but with defined muscle. I've worked very hard to keep & develop my muscle mass. I eat and train for it.
If you don't like that look then don't pursue it. It isn't going to happen easily or accidentally.
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A specific fitness activity does not necessarily result in a specific type of body. Often certain body types tend to prefer and excel in certain activities. Does basketball make people tall and gymnastics make people short?
One of my cousins is tall & lean and a long distances runner.He tried lifting with another cousin who is tall & bulkier. The running cousin felt he was not great at lifting, so he took up running & excelled & enjoyed. Is his body type cause or effect?5
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