CICO, It's a math formula
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GaleHawkins wrote: »No one posting here can even compute their CICO so CICO as used on MFP forums is a concept not science as far as dieting goes.
What do you think "compute your CICO" means?CICO is a favorite tool of some Fat Shamers.
Do you think that being told that you ate more than you burned (or that CI was more than CO) or, even that you have not been keeping a calorie deficit (if you have been maintaining) = fat shaming?
IMO, if you perceive the mere fact that you ate more than you burned to be shameful such that you find it too difficult or upsetting to acknowledge, that's part of the problem that needs to be addressed for effective weight management.I expect 100% of obese people have a Leaking Gut issue.
I expect this is nonsense.When that dam starts leaking it will be downhill from there until the leaking gut can recover by stopping the eating of foods that may have initially started the leaking.
I ate a mostly whole foods, nutrient-dense diet when gaining weight. What did I eat to cause my allegedly leaking gut? And how did I cure it without giving up any foods? Or, if I still have a leaking gut, how do I know that's so and how did I lose weight?
And from a court decision (Sanford v. Madison County Jail, Case No. 14-cv-566-JPG-SCW, 2017 U.S. Dist. LEXIS (S.D. Ill. Mar. 17, 2017)):
"...no reasonable jury could find based on the evidence in the file that Sanford's approximate 40-pound weight gain in one month was attributable to the diet served by the jail. In fact, it is virtually impossible for that to have occurred. The evidence shows the jail's diet complied with the Illinois County Jail Standards, 20 Ill. Admin. Code § 701.110(a)(1), which required a minimum of 1800 to 2000 calories per day for an adult. Sample menus show the daily diet at the jail contained between 2,000 and 3,000 calories. The Mayo Clinic teaches that "3,500 calories equals about 1 pound." Mayo Clinic, Weight loss, Counting calories: Get back to weight-loss basics, http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/weight-loss/in-depth/ calories/art-20048065 (visited Feb. 28, 2017). Thus, for Sanford to have gained 40 pounds, he would have had to have consumed 140,000 calories more than the energy he expended. For him to have done so in one month, he would have had to have consumed 4,666 calories a day over the energy he expended. Considering he expended at least 2,300 calories per day just existing and eating, he would have had to have consumed approximately 6,966 calories a day to have gained 40 pounds in a month. In light of the evidence of what was actually served at meals, no reasonable jury could believe the jail actually fed Sanford more than three times the mandated number of calories. Sanford is patently incredible when he claims to have gained 40 pounds in one month because of jail meals...."
The footnotes in the above didn't come through, but here they are:
"The Mayo Clinic states,
Even when you're at rest, your body needs energy for all its "hidden" functions, such as breathing, circulating blood, adjusting hormone levels, and growing and repairing cells.
The number of calories your body uses to carry out these basic functions is known as your basal metabolic rate — what you might call metabolism."
Mayo Clinic, Weight loss, Metabolism and weight loss: How you burn calories, http://www.mayoclinic.org/ healthy-lifestyle/weight-loss/in-depth/metabolism/art-20046508 (visited Feb. 28, 2017). Using the Mayo Clinic's tool for estimating the basal metabolic rate of an inactive 38-year-old man weighing 178 pounds, Sanford's condition when he was first detained, the Court finds that Sanford expended approximately 2,200 calories a day simply existing. See Mayo Clinic, Healthy Weight Pyramid, http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/weight-loss/ in-depth/weight-loss/itt-20084941 (visited Feb. 28, 2017). He also used anywhere from 100 to 800 calories a day to eat and digest his food. Mayo Clinic, Weight loss, Metabolism and weight loss: How you burn calories, supra."
and
"This does not mean Sanford did not actually gain the weight he claims to have gained. It just means it was not caused by the jail diet but from other sources like, for example, commissary snacks. See Prison Trust Fund Account Statement (Doc. 19 at 2) (showing a pattern of regular purchases from the jail store in 2014)."19 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »mburgess458 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »geneticsteacher wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Repeating: CICO is not calorie counting. You need not count, calculate, or (in the normal sense of the word) estimate calories in order to use CICO to lose weight. You need not know how many calories you eat. You need not know how many calories you burn. You cannot lose weight without 'using CICO'. Or gain weight, or maintain weight, for that matter. It's trivially true.
However . . . employing it conciously and intentionally helps some people. A lot. Whether they count calories, or not.
The arguments here about whether CO (or CI) are knowable, precise, accurate, etc., have more to do with whether calorie counting works. The many people who are successful here on MFP by using calorie counting would lead us to conclude that it does work . . . even if it's no more scientific than standing in a pentagram painted in blood on your basement floor, and sacrificing a virgin goat.
Maybe calorie counting works by placebo effect, simply because We Believe.
(I'm pretty sure it fails for some because they don't.)
So basically if one does not use CICO they get put in a coffin to be buried or cremated?
One does not "use" CICO. CICO is simply the equation that describes energy balance. Methods of achieving energy balance, i.e. calorie counting and/or keto, etc. are not CICO.
I think this about EIEO is basically the same as CICO perhaps? They talk about energy imbalance in humans and get into some actual causes of energy imbalances.
https://nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/obe/causes
Your source states that if you eat more calories than you burn you will gain weight. I'm glad you seem to agree. As for the genetic disorders listed that cause overweight or obesity, they impact a tiny percentage of the world's population:
Cohen syndrome: diagnosed in less than 1,000 people worldwide
Bardet-Biedl syndrome: 1 in 140,000-160,000 worldwide
Prader-Willi syndrome: 1 in 10,000-30,000 worldwide
Alstrom syndrome: Less than 1,000 people worldwide
ETA: endocrine disorders:
Hypothyroid: 1 in 3,000-4,000 people
Cushing disease: 10-15 people per million
@3bambi3 everyone that logs on to MFP knows that if you eat more calories than you burn you will gain weight.
Look at that! And only 19 short pages for you to agree with the original post.
@A_Rene86 based on professionals sources in links posted in this thread I personally see the original post to be mainly fake news that can be harmful new MFP members and the cause of MFP owners in general.
And you would be wrong.
So very very wrong.
But I must say, you take majoring in the minors/not seeing the forest for the trees to a whole new level.
Then post links based on science that prove me wrong!
Please say what your thoughts are? That CICO doesn't apply to some people? Or just that CICO doesn't explain why people over or under eat?
How about your post professional sources that prove your thoughts? Why do we have to prove you are wrong? I believe I lost weight because of the purple unicorn that follows me around. Prove me wrong and cite at least 3 professionals.
@mburgess458 I will repost the already posted professional sources that mirror my own readings on the subject so it does not require any clicking for a summary ASAP.
You or no one has to prove me wrong but you will not find professional sources to prove other professional sources wrong that I have linked to above.
CICO is a concept that applies to Closed Loop systems say like a car engine. A calorie is a unit of measure for sure but it does not tell one how much energy went into the bloodstream and how much of that energy was burned by the cells of our body. Some of the calories/energy that I eat pass out of my nose and out through my urine since I more or less stay in a state of nutritional ketosis for example.
No one posting here can even compute their CICO so CICO as used on MFP forums is a concept not science as far as dieting goes. However one can determine net CICO only after the fact by just weighing themselves from time to time under the same conditions each time and record their weight from time to time.
Yes it is true that CICO does not explain why people over or under eat. CICO is a favorite tool of some Fat Shamers.
Next to no one plans to become obese. To become seriously overweight it is my take of reading research one must FIRST develop a health issue that leads to overeating. It may have a physical or mental aspect or both. I expect 100% of obese people have a Leaking Gut issue. When that dam starts leaking it will be downhill from there until the leaking gut can recover by stopping the eating of foods that may have initially started the leaking.
I will work to get you the professional sources again that explain what is incorrect about the original post.
Thanks
It's not necessary to calculate CI and CO down to the exact calorie. I have a pretty good idea what my intake is each day through logging and using reliable database entries. I have a pretty good idea what my CO is each day by taking an estimated TDEE as my baseline, then tracking what happens with my weight when eating an estimated 500 cals less than my estimated TDEE (or eating at my estimated TDEE when in maintenance), and adjusting my intake if necessary. It's actually not rocket science.
And no, one doesn't need to have health issues in order to become overweight. Some people do, sure. Others just eat too much, because food is delicious.14 -
Famous quote from Metternich: "I thought I just really liked sachertorte, but it turns out it was my leaky gut!"13
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »mburgess458 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »geneticsteacher wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »Repeating: CICO is not calorie counting. You need not count, calculate, or (in the normal sense of the word) estimate calories in order to use CICO to lose weight. You need not know how many calories you eat. You need not know how many calories you burn. You cannot lose weight without 'using CICO'. Or gain weight, or maintain weight, for that matter. It's trivially true.
However . . . employing it conciously and intentionally helps some people. A lot. Whether they count calories, or not.
The arguments here about whether CO (or CI) are knowable, precise, accurate, etc., have more to do with whether calorie counting works. The many people who are successful here on MFP by using calorie counting would lead us to conclude that it does work . . . even if it's no more scientific than standing in a pentagram painted in blood on your basement floor, and sacrificing a virgin goat.
Maybe calorie counting works by placebo effect, simply because We Believe.
(I'm pretty sure it fails for some because they don't.)
So basically if one does not use CICO they get put in a coffin to be buried or cremated?
One does not "use" CICO. CICO is simply the equation that describes energy balance. Methods of achieving energy balance, i.e. calorie counting and/or keto, etc. are not CICO.
I think this about EIEO is basically the same as CICO perhaps? They talk about energy imbalance in humans and get into some actual causes of energy imbalances.
https://nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/obe/causes
Your source states that if you eat more calories than you burn you will gain weight. I'm glad you seem to agree. As for the genetic disorders listed that cause overweight or obesity, they impact a tiny percentage of the world's population:
Cohen syndrome: diagnosed in less than 1,000 people worldwide
Bardet-Biedl syndrome: 1 in 140,000-160,000 worldwide
Prader-Willi syndrome: 1 in 10,000-30,000 worldwide
Alstrom syndrome: Less than 1,000 people worldwide
ETA: endocrine disorders:
Hypothyroid: 1 in 3,000-4,000 people
Cushing disease: 10-15 people per million
@3bambi3 everyone that logs on to MFP knows that if you eat more calories than you burn you will gain weight.
Look at that! And only 19 short pages for you to agree with the original post.
@A_Rene86 based on professionals sources in links posted in this thread I personally see the original post to be mainly fake news that can be harmful new MFP members and the cause of MFP owners in general.
And you would be wrong.
So very very wrong.
But I must say, you take majoring in the minors/not seeing the forest for the trees to a whole new level.
Then post links based on science that prove me wrong!
Please say what your thoughts are? That CICO doesn't apply to some people? Or just that CICO doesn't explain why people over or under eat?
How about your post professional sources that prove your thoughts? Why do we have to prove you are wrong? I believe I lost weight because of the purple unicorn that follows me around. Prove me wrong and cite at least 3 professionals.
@mburgess458 I will repost the already posted professional sources that mirror my own readings on the subject so it does not require any clicking for a summary ASAP.
You or no one has to prove me wrong but you will not find professional sources to prove other professional sources wrong that I have linked to above.
CICO is a concept that applies to Closed Loop systems say like a car engine. A calorie is a unit of measure for sure but it does not tell one how much energy went into the bloodstream and how much of that energy was burned by the cells of our body. Some of the calories/energy that I eat pass out of my nose and out through my urine since I more or less stay in a state of nutritional ketosis for example.
No one posting here can even compute their CICO so CICO as used on MFP forums is a concept not science as far as dieting goes. However one can determine net CICO only after the fact by just weighing themselves from time to time under the same conditions each time and record their weight from time to time.
Yes it is true that CICO does not explain why people over or under eat. CICO is a favorite tool of some Fat Shamers.
Next to no one plans to become obese. To become seriously overweight it is my take of reading research one must FIRST develop a health issue that leads to overeating. It may have a physical or mental aspect or both. I expect 100% of obese people have a Leaking Gut issue. When that dam starts leaking it will be downhill from there until the leaking gut can recover by stopping the eating of foods that may have initially started the leaking.
I will work to get you the professional sources again that explain what is incorrect about the original post.
Thanks
It's not necessary to calculate CI and CO down to the exact calorie. I have a pretty good idea what my intake is each day through logging and using reliable database entries. I have a pretty good idea what my CO is each day by taking an estimated TDEE as my baseline, then tracking what happens with my weight when eating an estimated 500 cals less than my estimated TDEE (or eating at my estimated TDEE when in maintenance), and adjusting my intake if necessary. It's actually not rocket science.
And no, one doesn't need to have health issues in order to become overweight. Some people do, sure. Others just eat too much, because food is delicious.
"Leaky gut" is a nonspecific imaginary ailment which is only diagnosed by quacks in the first place, so any argument based upon it can be disregarded entirely. There is no legitimate scientific basis for such a diagnosis.15 -
For anyone interested in finding out more about "leaky gut syndrome" and that it's not even remotely a medically-recognized 'ailment', here's a good piece written by James R. Gray, (MD, CCFP, ABIM, FRCPC, Gastroenterologist, Faculty of Medicine,University of British Columbia), that's not written in medical-speak.
http://www.badgut.org/information-centre/a-z-digestive-topics/leaky-gut-syndrome/
tl;dr? Leaky Gut Syndrome isn't a thing, except among quacks and those selling 'miracle cures.'
14 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »No one posting here can even compute their CICO so CICO as used on MFP forums is a concept not science as far as dieting goes.
What do you think "compute your CICO" means?CICO is a favorite tool of some Fat Shamers.
Do you think that being told that you ate more than you burned (or that CI was more than CO) or, even that you have not been keeping a calorie deficit (if you have been maintaining) = fat shaming?
IMO, if you perceive the mere fact that you ate more than you burned to be shameful such that you find it too difficult or upsetting to acknowledge, that's part of the problem that needs to be addressed for effective weight management.I expect 100% of obese people have a Leaking Gut issue.
I expect this is nonsense.When that dam starts leaking it will be downhill from there until the leaking gut can recover by stopping the eating of foods that may have initially started the leaking.
I ate a mostly whole foods, nutrient-dense diet when gaining weight. What did I eat to cause my allegedly leaking gut? And how did I cure it without giving up any foods? Or, if I still have a leaking gut, how do I know that's so and how did I lose weight?
And from a court decision (Sanford v. Madison County Jail, Case No. 14-cv-566-JPG-SCW, 2017 U.S. Dist. LEXIS (S.D. Ill. Mar. 17, 2017)):
"...no reasonable jury could find based on the evidence in the file that Sanford's approximate 40-pound weight gain in one month was attributable to the diet served by the jail. In fact, it is virtually impossible for that to have occurred. The evidence shows the jail's diet complied with the Illinois County Jail Standards, 20 Ill. Admin. Code § 701.110(a)(1), which required a minimum of 1800 to 2000 calories per day for an adult. Sample menus show the daily diet at the jail contained between 2,000 and 3,000 calories. The Mayo Clinic teaches that "3,500 calories equals about 1 pound." Mayo Clinic, Weight loss, Counting calories: Get back to weight-loss basics, http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/weight-loss/in-depth/ calories/art-20048065 (visited Feb. 28, 2017). Thus, for Sanford to have gained 40 pounds, he would have had to have consumed 140,000 calories more than the energy he expended. For him to have done so in one month, he would have had to have consumed 4,666 calories a day over the energy he expended. Considering he expended at least 2,300 calories per day just existing and eating, he would have had to have consumed approximately 6,966 calories a day to have gained 40 pounds in a month. In light of the evidence of what was actually served at meals, no reasonable jury could believe the jail actually fed Sanford more than three times the mandated number of calories. Sanford is patently incredible when he claims to have gained 40 pounds in one month because of jail meals...."
The footnotes in the above didn't come through, but here they are:
"The Mayo Clinic states,
Even when you're at rest, your body needs energy for all its "hidden" functions, such as breathing, circulating blood, adjusting hormone levels, and growing and repairing cells.
The number of calories your body uses to carry out these basic functions is known as your basal metabolic rate — what you might call metabolism."
Mayo Clinic, Weight loss, Metabolism and weight loss: How you burn calories, http://www.mayoclinic.org/ healthy-lifestyle/weight-loss/in-depth/metabolism/art-20046508 (visited Feb. 28, 2017). Using the Mayo Clinic's tool for estimating the basal metabolic rate of an inactive 38-year-old man weighing 178 pounds, Sanford's condition when he was first detained, the Court finds that Sanford expended approximately 2,200 calories a day simply existing. See Mayo Clinic, Healthy Weight Pyramid, http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/weight-loss/ in-depth/weight-loss/itt-20084941 (visited Feb. 28, 2017). He also used anywhere from 100 to 800 calories a day to eat and digest his food. Mayo Clinic, Weight loss, Metabolism and weight loss: How you burn calories, supra."
and
"This does not mean Sanford did not actually gain the weight he claims to have gained. It just means it was not caused by the jail diet but from other sources like, for example, commissary snacks. See Prison Trust Fund Account Statement (Doc. 19 at 2) (showing a pattern of regular purchases from the jail store in 2014)."
Clicking awesome on this wasn't enough. It needed to be quoted because it was so beautiful.16 -
Just want to put this out there for some of the newbies, and others that may be a bit confused about the whole concept of "CICO"- Calories in VS Calories Out.
First, CICO is a math formula that will tell you one of three things.
If you want to lose weight, then you need to make your Calories In less than Out = calorie deficit to lose weight.
Second, if you want to maintain then you need of make your calories in = calories out = maintenance to maintain current weight.
Finally, if you want to gain, then you need to make your calories in greater than your calories out = caloric surplus.
CICO is not a way of eating, I repeat CICO is not a way of eating. If you are doing Keto, low carb, moderate protein/moderate carbs, IIFYM, etc and you are gaining, maintaining, or losing weight then you are using the fundamental principle of CICO.
CICO is not eating a diet of 100% "junk," or ignoring nutrition, or not caring about body composition, it is just a math formula that tells you to reach a goal. The formula is not perfect and it requires trial and error, but in the end it works for everyone, period.
If your goal is straight weight loss then you can just apply CICO, and eat less than you burn.
If your goal is to be more lean, or have advanced body composition goals, then you are going to need macro/micro adherence + a structured exercise regimen.
Finally, all calories are equal in that they provide the same measure of energy; however, they do not all contain the same nutritional profile.
Bump,
for being about the most important post in this whole wide forum.8 -
Thanks for the post op, very informative.3
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1 -
I was afraid you were the shouty guy when I read the title.
But you're not. Good work. Carry on.
ETA: Whoops. Necro'd thread. Still in board, tho.2 -
I miss Shouty Guy0
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And yet there are people who will tell you that it's actually about the number of carbs and proteins and sugars you eat blah blah. The truth is so simple, but people are so stupid.7
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And yet there are people who will tell you that it's actually about the number of carbs and proteins and sugars you eat blah blah. The truth is so simple, but people are so stupid.
I don't think it's so much that people are stupid - people are gullible and lazy. They want someone to give them that magic 'quick-fix' that will solve their problem and make them a better person... the entire diet industry is predicated on this 'logic'.7 -
annaskiski wrote: »I miss Shouty Guy
WILL IT HELP IF I TYPE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS MS STINKY BUTT?6 -
WinoGelato wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »I miss Shouty Guy
WILL IT HELP IF I TYPE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS MS STINKY BUTT?
Close, but not enough typos.4 -
Ah, the simplicity of truth.1
-
WinoGelato wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »I miss Shouty Guy
WILL IT HELP IF I TYPE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS MS STINKY BUTT?
STINKY IS AN ILLUSION, A CONCEPT. ITS NOT REAL.5 -
And yet there are people who will tell you that it's actually about the number of carbs and proteins and sugars you eat blah blah. The truth is so simple, but people are so stupid.
I don't think it's so much that people are stupid - people are gullible and lazy. They want someone to give them that magic 'quick-fix' that will solve their problem and make them a better person... the entire diet industry is predicated on this 'logic'.
This is so true, I'm in a local facebook group and every week someone will post about special offers on juiceplus or a patch or a pill - or something similar, they always state they've lost loads in the first month and there's always a long list of people who want to try it.
Sigh.....2 -
Them: so, what diet did you do?
Me: I didn't do a diet. But I did stop eating bread, pastry, potatoes and swapped them for green veggies.
Them: Oh! So you don't eat Carbs!
Me: No, I eat lots of carbs. I just swapped some high calorie ones for low calorie ones...
Them: ......?6
This discussion has been closed.
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