Fasting

craigo3154

Doing some research and thinking on this topic, and have some questions for the knowledgeable parties.

I am not a doctor. I am just trying to make sense of the information overload and filter it through my common sense.

Longer term CICO seems to be a myth according to Dr Jason Fung's talk. ( The Aetiology of Obesity Part 1 of 6: A New Hope - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpllomiDMX0 ) His argument is the metabolism self regulates (gets hotter/colder). Going over for a longer period of time does gain weight, but if you return to a reasonable level it does go back down. However trying to overeat on fats, protein and unrefined carbs is hard as the body elevates peptide yyck and stops you from eating (compare how full you feel after 100g of chips vs 100g of almonds). Refined carbohydrates do not trigger the same response and enable you to keep eating. However many here on MFP do lose weight based on CICO. Why? Shouldn't the body down regulate the metabolism to prevent this?

[ Question 1: Why do some people here on MFP seem to lose weight based on CICO (calorie deficit) lasting years? ]

[ Question 2: Is it feasible for a person (without a medical condition) to consistently grossly overeat calories (1000+ kCal per day over TDEE) consuming unrefined carbs (non GPS - grains, potato, sugar), proteins and fats? ]

For diabetes, IR seems to be the cause. How did IR come to be? Dr. Fung's hypothesis is excess insulin (makes sense to me - same way you become caffeine tolerant by having too much caffeine). But you need insulin to transport blood sugar into cells (lower HbA1c). A non-IR person, the insulin spike is shorter as the sugar can be transported relatively quickly into stores, where as an IR person takes longer as the stores do not accept the extra sugar into stores as easily (same way you need more caffeine to get a caffeine buzz if you have a regular caffeine intake). [ Is this correct? ]

If you want to reduce caffeine tolerance, stop ingesting caffeine and your caffeine resistance goes down. Therefore, it makes sense that if you want to reduce IR (or insulin tolerance), you must reduce insulin. But insulin is required after eating any food to transport the excess sugars in the blood into stores (and cells). However, each macro type has different insulin requirements (generally most to least: refined carbs, unrefined carbs (with fibre), proteins, fats). So how do you reduce insulin (you cannot cut it out entirely like caffeine)? Allow longer intervals of lower insulin (fasting) and/or foods that do not spike insulin (VL carb, L protein, H fats). This of course assumes most other body systems are working normally (like thyroid, etc..).

[ Question 3: If someone has diabetes (or signs of IR) AND they are monitoring their blood sugar, weight and moods why would you not recommend they TRY intermittent fasting and/or low carb diet for a few weeks to see if things they are monitoring improve? ]

Just because you reduce IR does not mean you will lose weight. Just means that the amount of time the high insulin level in the body is required is shortened. Which means your blood sugars will return to normal levels quicker. [ Is this correct? ]

What makes finding and eating the right macro balance hard is that refined carbs are CHEAP (heavily subsidised), EASILY AVAILABLE, TASTY (comforting) and do not make you as FULL (reduced satiety). For busy people, healthy "take away" food is either VERY hard to find and/or expensive. Couple this with YEARS of medical science telling us to eat more refined carbs and no wonder people find this hard.

My assumption for weight loss is that you need BOTH. CICO (to lose weight) AND a macro/eating time balance that does not allow insulin to spike for too long (to prevent IR). The CICO must not be too deficient to prevent the metabolism from down regulating. [ Is this correct? ]

I am not diabetic, but have excess midriff fat (so probably accumulated IR). The experiment I am conducting on myself is this:
- 3 meals a day (no snacks).
- Experiment with micros within those 3 meals (to find what make me feel fullest and have the most energy).
- Reasonable daily exercise, but do not add totals to daily calorie allowance.
- CICO deficit (but only to minor level as to lose 0.5kg per week as according to MFP calculations).
- Between meals only water and black tea (no milk or sugar).
- Try get 7+ hours sleep a night.
- No supplements, pills, powders, etc..

[ Question 4: Is there anything wrong / dangerous with the approach I am taking? ]

Since doing the above have lost weight, size and feel better overall.

This seems to be a regiment that I can maintain indefinitely.


*sorry for the long post*

Theo166

Suggest you watch the video again.

Dr Fung doesn't dispute CICO, he just argues that some choices on CI will impact Satiety and that exercise may increase hunger and CI to compensate (wiping out the weight loss benefit).

Nobody here mentioning CICO has said your macro choices are irrelevant to satiety.

craigo3154

Theo166 wrote: »

Suggest you watch the video again.

Dr Fung doesn't dispute CICO, he just argues that some choices on CI will impact Satiety and that exercise may increase hunger and CI to compensate (wiping out the weight loss benefit).

Nobody here mentioning CICO has said your macro choices are irrelevant to satiety.

From the video:
- "Key assumption is that caloric Intake an expenditure is independent" - 16:50
- "Instead, the body acts far more as a thermostat" - 22:44

If this is true, after weight loss through CICO alone you would expect the body to slowly return to the thermostat weight by regulating hunger and metabolism. Even if after you remove IR and "fatty liver", what re-sets the "thermostat" to regulate the body back to a "lower", "more healthy" setting?

[ Revised question 1: What re-sets the body's "thermostat" to a "lower", "more healthy" setting? ]

You are quite correct about no one mentioning macro choices being irrelevant to satiety. Therefore I assume the answer to my question 2 is that it is INFEASABLE for a person (without a medical condition) to consistently grossly overeat calories (1000+ kCal per day over TDEE) consuming unrefined carbs).

I assume the answer to question 3 is, with nothing to lose and no extra expenditure, that IF and/or low carb diet for a few weeks can do no further serious harm and may have gains (as they are in active monitoring and can stop any time).

Anyone see any problems/dangers with the personal regime I have set for myself?

lemurcat12

craigo3154 wrote: »

Theo166 wrote: »

Suggest you watch the video again.

Dr Fung doesn't dispute CICO, he just argues that some choices on CI will impact Satiety and that exercise may increase hunger and CI to compensate (wiping out the weight loss benefit).

Nobody here mentioning CICO has said your macro choices are irrelevant to satiety.

From the video:
- "Key assumption is that caloric Intake an expenditure is independent" - 16:50
- "Instead, the body acts far more as a thermostat" - 22:44

If this is true, after weight loss through CICO alone you would expect the body to slowly return to the thermostat weight by regulating hunger and metabolism. Even if after you remove IR and "fatty liver", what re-sets the "thermostat" to regulate the body back to a "lower", "more healthy" setting?

[ Revised question 1: What re-sets the body's "thermostat" to a "lower", "more healthy" setting? ]

This ignores mental factors beyond hunger (which I think is overemphasized as an issue, I don't really think people mostly gain weight due to hunger), as well as ways we have of controlling metabolism.

For example, if I do a huge and stressful workout (running a half marathon hard, vs. burning the same calories just walking around a whole bunch all day long), I find my body does seem to want to compensate -- my temptation is to be really sedentary the rest of the day or even to nap. But if I know this, I can say "no, I should still do normal stuff" and do so (or even sometimes go for a light bike ride that evening, walk around doing errands).

I think you need to consciously keep up daily activity after weight loss, and of course you need to plan in exercise if that's part of your plan. That outweighs any reduction in metabolism (and in accord with this, the data on longer term maintainers is that exercise tends to be important, although a lot of it is just planned walking, vs. people who are in the process of losing).

On the hunger issue, you can address changes there by having a plan in place to continue controlling amounts you eat (doesn't have to be logging) and by switching to more satiating and satisfying foods, as well as by imposing other restrictions on our tendency as humans to eat because food is available and looks good.

I have not found that doing this leaves me hungry. I do think that if I tried to eat totally freely or intuitively I'd overeat, that I do better controlling meal scheduling (i.e., eating 3 meals a day, rarely snacking) and keeping track of portions.

I also do better exercising (but not overexercising -- my biggest struggle is my temptation to the latter). According to Lyle McDonald, exercise helps hormonally with the hunger signals -- I might have this wrong as I am not checking, but it helps with the decline in ghrelin by making you more ghrelin sensitive (and people who are sedentary tend to be ghrelin resistant). (Overexercise, by which I mean training for a marathon or some such, messes me up or simply makes it more challenging, because I can't keep to my strict schedule with the long runs as I need more calories and adding in more calories for me, especially in an uneven way, tends to mess with my way of eating.)

You are quite correct about no one mentioning macro choices being irrelevant to satiety. Therefore I assume the answer to my question 2 is that it is INFEASABLE for a person (without a medical condition) to consistently grossly overeat calories (1000+ kCal per day over TDEE) consuming unrefined carbs).

Not at all. You can make a difference to how hard it is to overeat by focusing on more volume, especially, IMO (fat has the opposite effect for me and is not particular satiating, but does add satisfaction so is important). But again, hunger is not the main reason (IMO) people overeat, and I gained my weight eating this way (eating protein, fat, and unrefined carbs, from a homecooked, whole foods based diet) so I know it's possible. Really easy if you know how to cook well.

People who claim humans can't overeat with these food choices need to explain steak joints that have insane portions of meat, also.

Theo166

Craig, all weight loss occurs according to CICO. Dr Fung just advocates a technique (IF) that allow patients to maintain a lower CI. He also references research showing fasting provides hormonal benefits which aid health and weight loss.

CICO doesn't require CI to be independent from CO though CI is where we have the most control, hence it is the focus of virtually all loss discussions.

Of course it's feasible for a healthy person to grossly overeat and gain significant weight,
which then leads to IR and other problems.

craigo3154 wrote: »

Theo166 wrote: »

Suggest you watch the video again.

Dr Fung doesn't dispute CICO, he just argues that some choices on CI will impact Satiety and that exercise may increase hunger and CI to compensate (wiping out the weight loss benefit).

Nobody here mentioning CICO has said your macro choices are irrelevant to satiety.

From the video:
- "Key assumption is that caloric Intake an expenditure is independent" - 16:50
- "Instead, the body acts far more as a thermostat" - 22:44

If this is true, after weight loss through CICO alone you would expect the body to slowly return to the thermostat weight by regulating hunger and metabolism. Even if after you remove IR and "fatty liver", what re-sets the "thermostat" to regulate the body back to a "lower", "more healthy" setting?

[ Revised question 1: What re-sets the body's "thermostat" to a "lower", "more healthy" setting? ]

You are quite correct about no one mentioning macro choices being irrelevant to satiety. Therefore I assume the answer to my question 2 is that it is INFEASABLE for a person (without a medical condition) to consistently grossly overeat calories (1000+ kCal per day over TDEE) consuming unrefined carbs).

I assume the answer to question 3 is, with nothing to lose and no extra expenditure, that IF and/or low carb diet for a few weeks can do no further serious harm and may have gains (as they are in active monitoring and can stop any time).

Anyone see any problems/dangers with the personal regime I have set for myself?