I've come to conclusion cutting is not the answer for me for skinny fat
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TavistockToad wrote: »@Rusty740dave_in_ni wrote: »DancingMoosie wrote: »So, if you have given it a good try in a deficit, with no progress, what's the harm in trying a recomp or clean bulk? What program have you followed? Have you progressed on your lifts at all?
I have done the following
Bigger Leaner Stronger
5X5
Fierce 5
2 different versions of PPL
My lifts involving legs have been pretty decent and still going all be it slowly, Deadlift 1RM 315lbs, Squat 286lbs but upper body is rubbish. BP 132lbs OHP 103lbs
Thanks for that, I still want to see where he started at. Seems like he's getting bored with the programs, not doing them properly and generally messing about.
I started right at the bottom. I was a newbie when I started. I started right at the bottom with 2 x 10kg plates on deadlift for example.
I'll admit myself I messed around yes, I got frustrated with lack of any physical progression however while I messed around all the main lifts are basically the same in all the programs just slightly different rep ranges. The only main difference has been the accessory lifts.trigden1991 wrote: »Pick a programme you like and stick with it.
Diet down for 8-12 weeks and assess your bodyfat. If you're under 12% then increase calories to maintenance. See how your body reacts to the increase in calories. If you aren't making any strength or physical progress then eat more. When your bodyfat gets too high, start again.
he's already 6 feet and something like 140 pounds.
that's insanely tiny. why would he diet down for another 2-3 months? that's quiet frankly absurd.
Also- OP- seriously- it takes YEARS to rebuild your body. LONG term goals- 12 weeks is piddles compared to what you need.
you need a much longer approach to recomping- and you certainly don't need to lose more weight.
No I'm not 140 now, I'm around 160lbs or so now. I was 140 when I was 18 (36 now) but I was essentially the same build at 18, still looking skinny fat.therocpile wrote: »OP this is my advice,
You gotta bulk.... you cannot cut anymore, you need to put some LEAN tissue on. You have no muscle to cut into so no matter you weigh, you will be skinny fat. Your entire body composition will be greatly improved when you add some lean tissue on your frame. Keep an eye on your surplus, maybe 250-300 over maintenance and raise slowly as you grow. Keep your food clean and do cardio. Follow a beginner routine like 5x5 stronglifts and build yourself a foundation of muscle and strength.
Get strong, get big, and enjoy food.
I agree to an extent, I have no muscle which in itself is odd as I'm a carpenter which is a physical manual job and have been doing it this past 20 years, Now had I been sat in an office this past 20 years it might have been understandable having no muscle mass.
Here is a little comparison of where I was at and where I'm at now http://imgur.com/a/yBw04therocpile wrote: »OP this is my advice,
You gotta bulk.... you cannot cut anymore, you need to put some LEAN tissue on. You have no muscle to cut into so no matter you weigh, you will be skinny fat. Your entire body composition will be greatly improved when you add some lean tissue on your frame. Keep an eye on your surplus, maybe 250-300 over maintenance and raise slowly as you grow. Keep your food clean and do cardio. Follow a beginner routine like 5x5 stronglifts and build yourself a foundation of muscle and strength.
Get strong, get big, and enjoy food.
What specifically does clean mean and why would clean matter if he's hitting appropriate macros? Why would he do cardio if he's in a surplus unless he wants to eat more since the cardio isn't going to make him leaner? His nutrient partitioning for a bulk will be horrible in just a few pounds.
This is my thinking as well, I know exactly where the extra calories will go and it won't be muscle.1 -
still- even at 160 that's super thin for someone who is 6 foot.
I'm 5'8" and 175 pounds- and I look sexyAF.
You're still lean. super lean.0 -
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I'm thinking that it's the lifting program that's not getting the attention it deserves. I see from a previous post your DL and Squat you think are ok and have progressed, that's good, but your OHP and Bench are not good. I can verify that, you've got the same OHP and Bench as I do and I'm 5'6" 40 yr old male at 135 lbs and started lifting in January this year. This is where you need to put your effort into, following a program and doing whatever it takes to increase these lifts.
I'm concerned that maybe you don't really know what your 1RM is for these and how to measure, that kind of thing. I appreciate I'm being a bit hard on you, sorry for that. Anyhow that's where I'd put my focus if I were you.
Oh yeah and eating "clean", yeah I think there's value in this if only hormonal. While I get the IIFYM thing, I think there's good value in eating real food if you can, and everybody can
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I'm thinking that it's the lifting program that's not getting the attention it deserves. I see from a previous post your DL and Squat you think are ok and have progressed, that's good, but your OHP and Bench are not good. I can verify that, you've got the same OHP and Bench as I do and I'm 5'6" 40 yr old male at 135 lbs and started lifting in January this year. This is where you need to put your effort into, following a program and doing whatever it takes to increase these lifts.
I'm concerned that maybe you don't really know what your 1RM is for these and how to measure, that kind of thing. I appreciate I'm being a bit hard on you, sorry for that. Anyhow that's where I'd put my focus if I were you.
Oh yeah and eating "clean", yeah I think there's value in this if only hormonal. While I get the IIFYM thing, I think there's good value in eating real food if you can, and everybody can
I use jefit to log my workouts, the 1RM pops up in there. I don't actually go out and see how much weight I can lift it one rep, that would require a spotter which I don't have.0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »
It is kind of hard to show proportion from the pics. If I put a T-Shirt of which covers the chest I do look underweight. You take the T-Shirt off its like "What the f**k happened there" I look fat but I'm in actually skinny. It's kind of an odd look.0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »
Hard to tell when OP is laying down with sunglasses on- makes determining conditioning difficult. I could be wrong.
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TavistockToad wrote: »
Hard to tell when OP is laying down with sunglasses on- makes determining conditioning difficult. I could be wrong.
I just meant the before and after on this thread.0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »
Hard to tell when OP is laying down with sunglasses on- makes determining conditioning difficult. I could be wrong.
Thats the summer look lol0 -
dave_in_ni wrote: »I'm thinking that it's the lifting program that's not getting the attention it deserves. I see from a previous post your DL and Squat you think are ok and have progressed, that's good, but your OHP and Bench are not good. I can verify that, you've got the same OHP and Bench as I do and I'm 5'6" 40 yr old male at 135 lbs and started lifting in January this year. This is where you need to put your effort into, following a program and doing whatever it takes to increase these lifts.
I'm concerned that maybe you don't really know what your 1RM is for these and how to measure, that kind of thing. I appreciate I'm being a bit hard on you, sorry for that. Anyhow that's where I'd put my focus if I were you.
Oh yeah and eating "clean", yeah I think there's value in this if only hormonal. While I get the IIFYM thing, I think there's good value in eating real food if you can, and everybody can
I use jefit to log my workouts, the 1RM pops up in there. I don't actually go out and see how much weight I can lift it one rep, that would require a spotter which I don't have.
Ah ha!!! I totally have this problem too!!! Especially with the squats as I don't even have a rack I've decided to power clean then push it over to my shoulders. I try to match this weight with my OHP so my shoulders are able to take the lift over my head and back to my shoulders. Due to this I have upped my squats to 4 sets of 15 reps at about 50% 1RM, which happens to be about 80-90% 1RM of my OHP which I'll do 4 sets of 4-6.
Gotta be safe, but want to push. I tend to use formulas. Give the free website www.strengthlevel.com at try. Put it a few of your lifts and it will tell you a number of metrics to tell you if you are improving or not.1 -
therocpile wrote: »OP this is my advice,
You gotta bulk.... you cannot cut anymore, you need to put some LEAN tissue on. You have no muscle to cut into so no matter you weigh, you will be skinny fat. Your entire body composition will be greatly improved when you add some lean tissue on your frame. Keep an eye on your surplus, maybe 250-300 over maintenance and raise slowly as you grow. Keep your food clean and do cardio. Follow a beginner routine like 5x5 stronglifts and build yourself a foundation of muscle and strength.
Get strong, get big, and enjoy food.
What specifically does clean mean and why would clean matter if he's hitting appropriate macros? Why would he do cardio if he's in a surplus unless he wants to eat more since the cardio isn't going to make him leaner? His nutrient partitioning for a bulk will be horrible in just a few pounds.
Eating nutrient rich, whole foods instead of filling up on junk food? Sure you can treat yourself and fit items into your macros but I firmly believe, especially as a male you should be eating foods that promote high testosterone levels. If you have an expensive car, you're not going to fill it up with crappy fuel.
OP can take my advice or not. I bulked myself out of being skinny fat. It took me 3+ years. I ate everything I could get my hands on and then some during that time. I personally didn't worry about fat gain, because I know how to take it off and I knew I would have slabs of muscle hiding under it when it was time to cut down.
You just gotta fill your body out with muscle and worry about being ripped later.0 -
therocpile wrote: »therocpile wrote: »OP this is my advice,
You gotta bulk.... you cannot cut anymore, you need to put some LEAN tissue on. You have no muscle to cut into so no matter you weigh, you will be skinny fat. Your entire body composition will be greatly improved when you add some lean tissue on your frame. Keep an eye on your surplus, maybe 250-300 over maintenance and raise slowly as you grow. Keep your food clean and do cardio. Follow a beginner routine like 5x5 stronglifts and build yourself a foundation of muscle and strength.
Get strong, get big, and enjoy food.
What specifically does clean mean and why would clean matter if he's hitting appropriate macros? Why would he do cardio if he's in a surplus unless he wants to eat more since the cardio isn't going to make him leaner? His nutrient partitioning for a bulk will be horrible in just a few pounds.
Eating nutrient rich, whole foods instead of filling up on junk food? Sure you can treat yourself and fit items into your macros but I firmly believe, especially as a male you should be eating foods that promote high testosterone levels. If you have an expensive car, you're not going to fill it up with crappy fuel.
OP can take my advice or not. I bulked myself out of being skinny fat. It took me 3+ years. I ate everything I could get my hands on and then some during that time. I personally didn't worry about fat gain, because I know how to take it off and I knew I would have slabs of muscle hiding under it when it was time to cut down.
You just gotta fill your body out with muscle and worry about being ripped later.
I don't see how hitting appropriate macros and still fitting in pizza or twinkies is "filling an expensive car with crappy fuel". Our bodies aren't machines and the car analogy simply doesn't work because foods break down into simple nutrients our body uses, it functions very different from gasoline. It's damn near impossible to hit appropriate macros without eating a large portion of your calories as nutrient dense foods.2 -
When I began lifting, I was skinny fat and decided off the bat to bulk. Looking back it was a mistake, because I suspect I already had a bf% of somewhere between 15-17% and by the time I ended my bulk, I was somewhere in the early 20 percent. I had to do a long cut which I regret. If I were to go back in time, I would've started with a cut, I would've been better off cutting and then do a long cut...so if you are in the same situation as I was, my recomendation is to do a cut until your lean enough...sure people will tell you that you're skinny, but at least you will have lots of time ahead of you to bulk and build some muscles.
Sound advice, especially now OP has posted a recent photo.
Keep lifting but on a calorie deficit until you're around 10%, then do a lean bulk.
I can't understand how people can't see the benefit of cutting before a bulk, no matter how much mass the trainee has.1 -
dave_in_ni wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »You've been asking the same thing for months now... but refusing to follow the advice of either bulking or recomp while following an actual decent lifting programme....
Recomp is to slow, I am told to cut. To high BF%, I give programs a good 8-12 weeks, if no progress I move on but I am not going to make any progress in a deficit.
8-12 weeks? that's not even long enough to get in a groove.
Try 8-12 months doing the same thing.4 -
therocpile wrote: »therocpile wrote: »OP this is my advice,
You gotta bulk.... you cannot cut anymore, you need to put some LEAN tissue on. You have no muscle to cut into so no matter you weigh, you will be skinny fat. Your entire body composition will be greatly improved when you add some lean tissue on your frame. Keep an eye on your surplus, maybe 250-300 over maintenance and raise slowly as you grow. Keep your food clean and do cardio. Follow a beginner routine like 5x5 stronglifts and build yourself a foundation of muscle and strength.
Get strong, get big, and enjoy food.
What specifically does clean mean and why would clean matter if he's hitting appropriate macros? Why would he do cardio if he's in a surplus unless he wants to eat more since the cardio isn't going to make him leaner? His nutrient partitioning for a bulk will be horrible in just a few pounds.
Eating nutrient rich, whole foods instead of filling up on junk food? Sure you can treat yourself and fit items into your macros but I firmly believe, especially as a male you should be eating foods that promote high testosterone levels. If you have an expensive car, you're not going to fill it up with crappy fuel.
OP can take my advice or not. I bulked myself out of being skinny fat. It took me 3+ years. I ate everything I could get my hands on and then some during that time. I personally didn't worry about fat gain, because I know how to take it off and I knew I would have slabs of muscle hiding under it when it was time to cut down.
You just gotta fill your body out with muscle and worry about being ripped later.
PS by the way- unless the manual specifically says it requires higher octane fuel- putting expensive fuel into a car simply because it's a luxury brand or expensive car is a waste of money.
People put high octane fuel in motorcycles constantly- and 95% of them sold on the street don't require anything but regular.3 -
stanmann571 wrote: »dave_in_ni wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »You've been asking the same thing for months now... but refusing to follow the advice of either bulking or recomp while following an actual decent lifting programme....
Recomp is to slow, I am told to cut. To high BF%, I give programs a good 8-12 weeks, if no progress I move on but I am not going to make any progress in a deficit.
8-12 weeks? that's not even long enough to get in a groove.
Try 8-12 months doing the same thing.
Yeah, 8-12 weeks isn't enough time to see anything substantial.0 -
Protein may be harder to hit, but otherwise I wouldn't say it's that difficult. Commercial cheese pizza (I checked Dominoes) is roughly 48% carbs, 34% fat, and 16-17% protein. A whole 14" pizza is about 2300 calories, which for some people trying to recomp that would be close to enough calories.
It's damn near impossible to hit appropriate macros without eating a large portion of your calories as nutrient dense foods.therocpile wrote: »therocpile wrote: »OP this is my advice,
You gotta bulk.... you cannot cut anymore, you need to put some LEAN tissue on. You have no muscle to cut into so no matter you weigh, you will be skinny fat. Your entire body composition will be greatly improved when you add some lean tissue on your frame. Keep an eye on your surplus, maybe 250-300 over maintenance and raise slowly as you grow. Keep your food clean and do cardio. Follow a beginner routine like 5x5 stronglifts and build yourself a foundation of muscle and strength.
Get strong, get big, and enjoy food.
What specifically does clean mean and why would clean matter if he's hitting appropriate macros? Why would he do cardio if he's in a surplus unless he wants to eat more since the cardio isn't going to make him leaner? His nutrient partitioning for a bulk will be horrible in just a few pounds.
Eating nutrient rich, whole foods instead of filling up on junk food? Sure you can treat yourself and fit items into your macros but I firmly believe, especially as a male you should be eating foods that promote high testosterone levels. If you have an expensive car, you're not going to fill it up with crappy fuel.
OP can take my advice or not. I bulked myself out of being skinny fat. It took me 3+ years. I ate everything I could get my hands on and then some during that time. I personally didn't worry about fat gain, because I know how to take it off and I knew I would have slabs of muscle hiding under it when it was time to cut down.
You just gotta fill your body out with muscle and worry about being ripped later.
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ForecasterJason wrote: »
Protein may be harder to hit, but otherwise I wouldn't say it's that difficult. Commercial cheese pizza (I checked Dominoes) is roughly 48% carbs, 34% fat, and 16-17% protein. A whole 14" pizza is about 2300 calories, which for some people trying to recomp that would be close to enough calories.
It's damn near impossible to hit appropriate macros without eating a large portion of your calories as nutrient dense foods.therocpile wrote: »therocpile wrote: »OP this is my advice,
You gotta bulk.... you cannot cut anymore, you need to put some LEAN tissue on. You have no muscle to cut into so no matter you weigh, you will be skinny fat. Your entire body composition will be greatly improved when you add some lean tissue on your frame. Keep an eye on your surplus, maybe 250-300 over maintenance and raise slowly as you grow. Keep your food clean and do cardio. Follow a beginner routine like 5x5 stronglifts and build yourself a foundation of muscle and strength.
Get strong, get big, and enjoy food.
What specifically does clean mean and why would clean matter if he's hitting appropriate macros? Why would he do cardio if he's in a surplus unless he wants to eat more since the cardio isn't going to make him leaner? His nutrient partitioning for a bulk will be horrible in just a few pounds.
Eating nutrient rich, whole foods instead of filling up on junk food? Sure you can treat yourself and fit items into your macros but I firmly believe, especially as a male you should be eating foods that promote high testosterone levels. If you have an expensive car, you're not going to fill it up with crappy fuel.
OP can take my advice or not. I bulked myself out of being skinny fat. It took me 3+ years. I ate everything I could get my hands on and then some during that time. I personally didn't worry about fat gain, because I know how to take it off and I knew I would have slabs of muscle hiding under it when it was time to cut down.
You just gotta fill your body out with muscle and worry about being ripped later.
And protein is only the most important macro one should be worried about when bulking/recomping. So I'd say it could be problematic.1 -
Are we really advocating someone cut to underweight so they are the magic 10% to bulk?3
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