June 2017 Running Challenge

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  • MobyCarp
    MobyCarp Posts: 2,927 Member
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    VydorScope wrote: »
    @MobyCarp @Stoshew71 @lporter229

    So I bought that book, and hope to find time to read it. In the short term, if instead of what I posted above if I did like...

    Day 1: 6-8 miles - conversational pace (60% effort)
    Day 2: 6-8 miles - faster pace (80% ?? effort)
    Day 3: 6-8 miles - conversational pace (60% effort)
    Day 4: Long run - miles pending time, at least 10, easy pace
    Day 5-6: Rest or easy run

    Would that be better? I have my Apple Watch to track heart rate so I will use that to figure out effort levels. Might not be perfect but it is objective and needs no purchases.

    I am not looking to win any races (though I am finding I kick it pretty good in 5k for my age group - and have won a few - my generation is fat and slow I guess) - just would like to slowly improve. Right now sub 4-hour marathon is my next target (PR 4:11) I need goals to stay focused... but I do not want to have to do tons of tracking. I need to be able to run with very little thought about what I am doing :)

    --
    Pastor Vincent

    On a schedule of running 4 or 5 days a week, doing something hard 1 day should be sustainable. And if you count it that way, there doesn't have to be a lot of tracking. Just remember Tuesday is speed work day, everything else is easy. (Or whatever weekday you happen to pick.) The speed work could be a simple tempo run (i.e., faster pace) or could be more complex intervals, depending on your goals, motivation, and interest in doing something more complex than just go run.
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
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    MobyCarp wrote: »
    On a schedule of running 4 or 5 days a week, doing something hard 1 day should be sustainable. And if you count it that way, there doesn't have to be a lot of tracking. Just remember Tuesday is speed work day, everything else is easy. (Or whatever weekday you happen to pick.) The speed work could be a simple tempo run (i.e., faster pace) or could be more complex intervals, depending on your goals, motivation, and interest in doing something more complex than just go run.

    I aim for 7 days a week knowing my schedule will not actually allow that to happen :) Some weeks it is 3, some 1 some 6... but if I plan to run every day I have a shot of averaging 3-4 a week. It is much easier when the weather is nice... winters in Pittsburgh can be rough for running. :)

    --
    Pastor Vincent
  • SpiritHippo
    SpiritHippo Posts: 53 Member
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    Stoshew71 wrote: »
    @SpiritHippo Also, Usually when you fall off the wagon so bad to the point it's hard to get back up, it's usually because you got burnt out. Look back at the times this happened to you in the past. What things did you do (or things unexpectedly happen to you) that may have caused burn out. Where you trying to do too much? Did something out of your control hamper your training but you persistently tried to stick to "the plan"? Sleep, illness, work, other responsibilities? What did you do to scale back your training to deal with these other stressors?

    What kind of training do you do? Is every run you do a "hard workout"? Do you have recovery or very easy days? Do you have cut back weeks? Or are you constantly always trying to out do yourself every single week?

    At least 80% of all your miles (or minutes if you go by time) should be easy or recovery (no faster than conversational pace). If you do any more, it's a recipe for burn out and will stunt your training.

    Also an improper balance diet can effect your motivation to training. Yesterday I posted about "not worrying about being hydrated 24/7/365" but disregarding your liquid intake all together is destructive as well. it's all balance.

    Just some more things to think about.

    Those are some great points. I do a lot of the things you mentioned. For example, every single mile that I run I feel like I'm dying (mostly because I can't breathe) but I always feel like I should run at least 3 miles every time because it seems like that is basic place for most other people. In the past, I've worked up to a 6 mile run with short walking breaks in between. After a few weeks with no running, 2 miles feels like I just climbed a mountain but I always try for 3 anyway because that seems like the bottom level acceptable amount. It's not even based on anything except that I hate when I'm not in good enough running condition to do a 5K if I find out late. I've also never done training recommended by anyone else. The last time I was doing well with running, I set my own training schedule with 3-4 runs each week and of those one run would be long and not for time just miles. On the other days I would do barre or lifting or stationary bike with high and low intensity intervals, and one or two rest days depending on the week. Most recently, when I was having a hard time sticking with it, I tried to run at least 3 miles most week days (after no running for about 5 months) with mandatory running of at least one mile on days I couldn't push myself.

    Your comments were very beneficial! Thanks for pointing these things out. I've gained a lot of insight so far. Hopefully I'll be able to work up to a 10K in the future. Also, this thread is amazing! I love how frequently everyone posts here and responds to each other. Thanks again
  • BruinsGal_91
    BruinsGal_91 Posts: 1,400 Member
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    @skippygirlsmom - 6, unless running away from a turkey is the same as running away from a dog, in which case, 7.
  • cburke8909
    cburke8909 Posts: 990 Member
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    @SpiritHippo just for some perspective. Last year at this time a 3 mile run was too much for me. I was overweight and out of shape and not eating and sleeping right. Now I can do 150 miles a month but it took taking it easy and staying with it to get me there. I hated that a 2 mile run was my max. I will suggest that elliptical machine and exercise bikes are a great way of building up your muscles and cardio health while avoiding the injuries that come to runners who are not ready. We have members here who walk part of there run and that's admirable. Will they ever run marathons, not important, they will help their bodies and themselves and enjoy a better life along the way.
  • ctlaws44
    ctlaws44 Posts: 182 Member
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    [/quote] This. Is. Awesome. I may be fast for an old guy, but @VydorScope is truly impressive.

    Everyone who glazed past the original post - read the story at the link. I choked up.[/quote]

    @MobyCarp Who are you kidding?! You're fast for a human!!
  • dkabambe
    dkabambe Posts: 544 Member
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    Only planned 3k and only then because I knew I probably won't have time to run next few days, (maybe I could run the 3k back from work tomorrow but that will be it until Sunday evening at earliest).

    When I set out the legs still felt really weird/heavy as they did yesterday, but I warmed to the task and somehow ended up doing 7.94k. Even then I could have gone on but needed to get home for my scheduled video call with my daughter.

    A long way from a great run, but still a chance I may even be able to do my half next month which I definitely wasn't feeling yesterday!

    exercise.png

    11-June: 6.50km easy
    13-June: 5.18km steady
    14-June: 4.59k *slow* + 3.18k easy
    15-June 7.94k easy

    Upcoming Races:
    9-July: Southend HM
  • wishiwasarunner
    wishiwasarunner Posts: 202 Member
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    SpiritHippo wrote: »
    Since everyone here seems to be very consistent with their running workouts, is there any insight you can share in terms of what you do to make sure you don't miss your runs/ skip running workouts/ get behind? Sometimes I am on point with making every scheduled run for a few weeks straight but then something seems to happen either with scheduling, motivation, or desire to do a different workout. I need to be more consistent and it looks like all of you have it figured out so please let me know how you keep at it :smile:

    So I would not count myself as one of the people who have it figured out. I also wouldn't count myself as someone who just really loves running, though, either. So I thought I might have a different perspective from some of the people who just do this out of pure love/addiction, lol. I started about 2 years ago. I could not run a mile. I ran a full marathon in 4:14 at the end of April. I do not have a running club - but I really think that is a great option if it works for you. I do not run as consistently as most people here - but I agree that would be a better plan if I figured out a way to make it work. What I did was to sign up for races to make sure I had motivation - especially in the beginning. Started with a 5k, then a 7k the next month, then a 10K the next month and then a 10 mile the next. My first Half was a few months after that. That kept me going. I did not want to disappoint myself.

    The other thing I did was accept my schedule. I am not going to be a professional runner. I work A LOT, and if I tried to make this into the only focus in my life, I would not be able to sustain. I do, however, have most weekends off, and most Thursday's off. So I don't usually run on my work days -but unless I find a way to make it up on a different day - I am not allowed to miss a run on my days off. This summer, my daughter wanted to take Spinning class with me after my weight workout on Thursdays. I really didn't want to tell her no but I also didn't think I would be able to get in a run after all that in the summer afternoon heat - so I am now getting up early at least one day a week to make sure that third run gets done (though it is usually shorter than my Thursday runs used to be) and I am hoping maybe I can keep up that extra day once summer is over and I go back to running on Thursdays while my daughter is in school. But if I don't - well I still have no reason not to run the other three days.

    Whatever you decide, I hope you find a way to make it work for you!
  • lporter229
    lporter229 Posts: 4,907 Member
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    VydorScope wrote: »
    @MobyCarp @Stoshew71 @lporter229

    So I bought that book, and hope to find time to read it. In the short term, if instead of what I posted above if I did like...

    Day 1: 6-8 miles - conversational pace (60% effort)
    Day 2: 6-8 miles - faster pace (80% ?? effort)
    Day 3: 6-8 miles - conversational pace (60% effort)
    Day 4: Long run - miles pending time, at least 10, easy pace
    Day 5-6: Rest or easy run

    Would that be better? I have my Apple Watch to track heart rate so I will use that to figure out effort levels. Might not be perfect but it is objective and needs no purchases.

    I am not looking to win any races (though I am finding I kick it pretty good in 5k for my age group - and have won a few - my generation is fat and slow I guess) - just would like to slowly improve. Right now sub 4-hour marathon is my next target (PR 4:11) I need goals to stay focused... but I do not want to have to do tons of tracking. I need to be able to run with very little thought about what I am doing :)

    --
    Pastor Vincent

    When I first picked up a copy of 80/20 Running, I was just looking to add some direction to my haphazard style of training. Within a year, I ran my first sub 4hr marathon and then shaved another 15 minutes off my PR and qualified for Boston a short while after. The system really does have its merits, IMO.

    In what area of Pittsburgh do you live? I was born and raised in Carnegie (went to Chartiers Valley High). My family is still in the area, so I have done a good bit of running in that neck of the woods. My husband and I did the Turkey Trot in 2015. The Pittsburgh marathon is definitely on my bucket list. The timing has not worked out for me yet, but I will get there one of these days!
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
    edited June 2017
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    VydorScope wrote: »
    @MobyCarp @Stoshew71 @lporter229

    So I bought that book, and hope to find time to read it. In the short term, if instead of what I posted above if I did like...

    Day 1: 6-8 miles - conversational pace (60% effort)
    Day 2: 6-8 miles - faster pace (80% ?? effort)
    Day 3: 6-8 miles - conversational pace (60% effort)
    Day 4: Long run - miles pending time, at least 10, easy pace
    Day 5-6: Rest or easy run

    Would that be better? I have my Apple Watch to track heart rate so I will use that to figure out effort levels. Might not be perfect but it is objective and needs no purchases.

    I am not looking to win any races (though I am finding I kick it pretty good in 5k for my age group - and have won a few - my generation is fat and slow I guess) - just would like to slowly improve. Right now sub 4-hour marathon is my next target (PR 4:11) I need goals to stay focused... but I do not want to have to do tons of tracking. I need to be able to run with very little thought about what I am doing :)

    --
    Pastor Vincent

    Instead of arbitrary mixing miles with arbitrary paces, let me encourage you to learn the different types of workout. What I am about to give you is what is defined by Dr. Jack Daniels. Other coaches use something similar but kind of say the same thing. For example, McMillian has some similar workout types but defines them slightly different. Pete Pftitzinger (another well known coach) probably defines them a bit different too. Phil Maffetone defines his based upon percentages of max heart rate which is fine too. I am not trying to persuade you to go with one coach's definition over another, just using this as an example.

    E = Easy (conversational pace or 60% effort)
    T = (Lactate) Threshold pace. ("comfortably hard", the point at which lactate accumulation never plateaus again, 80-88% max effort)
    I = Interval Training (97-100% effort for no more than 3 minutes, then recover fully and repeat no more than 5x)
    R = Repetition (A pace paster than I for no more than 2 minutes with recovery in between 2-3x longer than the work portion) usually the work portion is 200m, sometimes 400, elites at 600/800 meters

    You also have recovery pace which is slower than E, and Long Run (LR) pace which is hard to define by a specific pace or perceived effort but are meant to be easy as well.

    E is for strengthening the heart and make aerobic changes in your body.
    T is for building up your Lactate Threshold and endurance building.
    I is to improve maximum oxygen uptake
    R is for speed, running economy, and neurological development
    LR is for TOF (time on feet) and training your body to use fat for energy
    Recovery is to give your body and mind a mental break but continue that neurological development


    80% or more of runs (counted by miles or total time running for the week) is E or slower.
    Anytime you do a workout that goes faster than E, consider that a "quality workout". Your long run is also considered a "quality workout". If you go by a 7 day schedule, you should target no more than 3 quality workouts in a week.

    I have the added restriction personally that if you are building mileage, all my workouts should be at E or slower.


    Also, learn about Arthur Lydiard, who was a very famous New Zealand coach in the 60's and is regarded as the father of modern running training. What is revolutionary about his training, that all the others coaches I mention base their training off of, are 2 things: periodization and base building. The 80/20 book will introduce you to that concept. Periodization refers to breaking down all your training (usually a years worth) down into smaller segments called macrocycles. Each macrocycle (further broken down into mesocycles and microcycles) you focus on something different. In one macrocycle you focus solely on "base building", then you may move onto something else like threshold development, then you move onto something more specific (fine tuning) for the type of race you want to run (maybe anaerobic development or lactate clearance). It all points to some goal race you have in mind. The other thing was base building. Many of Lydiard's contemporaries were more focus on anaerobic development (run faster all the time) to get better. This proves to be more effective than base building for a short period of time, but then plateaus. Base building over a longer period of time has been proven over and over again and in many different sports disciplines (swimming, cross country skiing, running) way more effective than anaerobic training and doesn't plateau.

    One of Daniels' quotes he is famous for is "know why you are performing that particular workout". By the way, Daniels has a great book called Daniels' Running Formula I also highly recommend.



    EDITED many times as I reread and made corrections. For example I said couches instead of coaches. LOL
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
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    lporter229 wrote: »

    When I first picked up a copy of 80/20 Running, I was just looking to add some direction to my haphazard style of training. Within a year, I ran my first sub 4hr marathon and then shaved another 15 minutes off my PR and qualified for Boston a short while after. The system really does have its merits, IMO.

    In what area of Pittsburgh do you live? I was born and raised in Carnegie (went to Chartiers Valley High). My family is still in the area, so I have done a good bit of running in that neck of the woods. My husband and I did the Turkey Trot in 2015. The Pittsburgh marathon is definitely on my bucket list. The timing has not worked out for me yet, but I will get there one of these days!

    Just moved here recently (less than 2 years) so still do not know the area, but I am in Cranberry Township. I find it humorous when people talk about "doing hill work outs" :smiley: ALL I do around here is hills. 1100 feet of elevation is an average 10 mile run heh.

    --
    Pastor Vincent
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
    edited June 2017
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    Stoshew71 wrote: »

    Instead of arbitrary mixing miles with arbitrary paces, let me encourage you to learn the different types of workout. What I am about to give you is what is defined by Dr. Jack Daniels. Other coaches use something similar but kind of say the same thing. For example, McMillian has some similar workout types but defines them slightly different. Pete Pftitzinger (another well known coach) probably defines them a bit different too. Phil Maffetone defines his based upon percentages of max heart rate which is fine too. I am not trying to persuade you to go with one coach's definition over another, just using this as an example.

    @Stoshew71 Thank you for your post, I read it all but not sure I followed it through to a practical "what do do while I am running" application - but I think if restate my plan, it does meet some of what you said...


    Day 1: 6-8 miles - conversational pace (60% effort) <-- E
    Day 2: 6-8 miles - faster pace (80% ?? effort) <-- T
    Day 3: 6-8 miles - conversational pace (60% effort) <-- E
    Day 4: Long run - miles pending time, at least 10, easy pace <-- LR
    Day 5-6: Rest or easy run <-- Rest or E

    I do not have R or I in the plan, but I think the rest fits what you said? Maybe I am just confused? That is very possible.

    --
    Pastor Vincent
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
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    VydorScope wrote: »
    For anyone that cares to know the details: http://www.losttalesofpower.com/2015/02/25/i-am-not-a-runner/

    --
    Pastor Vincent

    Damn PV, you trying to make me ball in tears or something?

    tenor.gif

  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
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    Stoshew71 wrote: »
    VydorScope wrote: »
    For anyone that cares to know the details: http://www.losttalesofpower.com/2015/02/25/i-am-not-a-runner/

    --
    Pastor Vincent

    Damn PV, you trying to make me ball in tears or something?

    Whatever it takes to inspire, whatever it takes. :smiley:
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
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    VydorScope wrote: »
    Stoshew71 wrote: »

    Instead of arbitrary mixing miles with arbitrary paces, let me encourage you to learn the different types of workout. What I am about to give you is what is defined by Dr. Jack Daniels. Other coaches use something similar but kind of say the same thing. For example, McMillian has some similar workout types but defines them slightly different. Pete Pftitzinger (another well known coach) probably defines them a bit different too. Phil Maffetone defines his based upon percentages of max heart rate which is fine too. I am not trying to persuade you to go with one coach's definition over another, just using this as an example.

    @Stoshew71 Thank you for your post, I read it all but not sure I followed it through to a practical "what do do while I am running" application - but I think if restate my plan, it does meet some of what you said...


    Day 1: 6-8 miles - conversational pace (60% effort) <-- E
    Day 2: 6-8 miles - faster pace (80% ?? effort) <-- T
    Day 3: 6-8 miles - conversational pace (60% effort) <-- E
    Day 4: Long run - miles pending time, at least 10, easy pace <-- LR
    Day 5-6: Rest or easy run <-- Rest or E

    I do not have R or I in the plan, but I think the rest fits what you said? Maybe I am just confused? That is very possible.

    --
    Pastor Vincent

    Yeah, the post wasn't meant to exclaim what you should do, but rather an introduction that requires further research. It took me a lot of reading to get to the understanding that I have now and I still feel like there is so much more to learn.

    Your Day 2? What you are calling T. You probably want to run about a mile at E for a warmup, then run for 20 minutes at 80% effort and finish the rest of the 6-8 miles back at E again. That would be a typical threshold workout. There are different types of threshold or tempo workouts, but what I suggest is a typical beginner's tempo workout. You can go slightly faster than 80% for less than 20 minutes or slightly slower for more than 20 minutes (McMillian has 3 different types of tempo workouts that are based upon that concept). If 20 minutes is easy, you can build up to 30 minutes at that Threshold pace. But I wouldn't suggest running the entire 6 or 8 miles at Threshold.

    The Threshold workout and the long run workout gives you 2 quality days for the week which is very decent. I feel that will make you want to be more consistent.

    You also mention that you have a lot of hills where you live? That up's the stakes more. You must have built up a lot of leg strength. I live in the Huntsville Alabama area and it's easy to find hills around here. It's actually very hard to find a 10 mile run without encountering a bunch of hills unless you hit the greenways or run in research park.

    As a side note, I don't do the I or R workouts either. But I do perform what are called bursts (some people mislabel them as strides). Where I will work these faster pace running for a short defined distance into my easy run. Usually 6 bursts. The way it works, run my normal E route (maybe my 8 or 10 miler) But towards the end, maybe starting at mile 7 or 8, I will run for 30 seconds at either 5K race pace or faster, then slow back down for 2 minutes at E to recover, then repeat 5 more times. Strides technically are different where you start from a rest position, slowly build into 95% effort then slowly back down to a complete stop where the whole thing takes about 30-40 seconds. Then walk back to where you started and repeat again.

    There is something similar called a fartlek (Swedish for "speed play") where you just randomly mix up faster running within your easy run. So you may say, OK I am gonna run hard till I reach that mail box then slow back down to E. Then when you feel like it, you pick another spot (maybe that lamp post up ahead) and pick up the pace then slow back down to E.

    Hill repeats are also a different type of workout and many different ways you can perform them. With my running group this morning, there is this hill behind the Cabala's store that is about .1 mile length with a ~6% grade. We do them about 8x. Well most of us do. Run up hard, run slow or walk down then run hard back up.
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
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    By the way, if you haven't guessed by now, I like to learn and talk a lot about running.
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
    edited June 2017
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    Stoshew71 wrote: »
    By the way, if you haven't guessed by now, I like to learn and talk a lot about running.

    Good cause I have a lot to learn :) I can not afford a coach, so I need to figure all this out on the road.

    --
    Pastor Vincent
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
    edited June 2017
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    Stoshew71 wrote: »
    You also mention that you have a lot of hills where you live? That up's the stakes more. You must have built up a lot of leg strength. I live in the Huntsville Alabama area and it's easy to find hills around here. It's actually very hard to find a 10 mile run without encountering a bunch of hills unless you hit the greenways or run in research park.

    I have a loop that runs through a park and the park is pretty flat. I run that loop when I am feeling pretty poorly, I think that route only has 400 or 500 feet of elevation pending the variation on the route. It is a 5-9 mile run, again pending some turns I make.

    wzx7jni6685l.png

    You can see the park pretty clearly heh. It is easy though for me to break 1000 feet, or more on longer runs even 2000 feet.

    Keep in mind though the Pittsburgh Marathon, my one big race a year is not flat...

    zwi59bhb18uc.png

    That hill at mile 13 kills me. I plan to be more ready for it next time. :)

    So yeah, if pure leg strength was the secret, I probably would be sub 3 hours on a marathon by now :smiley:

    --
    Pastor Vincent

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