Volume Eaters Thread

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Replies

  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    I've noticed that lots of people each fruit. I had the understanding that fruit with the sugar was something that I wanted to stay away from. Any thoughts?

    Uhh unless you have DM... fruit is good! Dont fall for guru/ pseudo scientific BS.
  • purplefizzy
    purplefizzy Posts: 594 Member
    @Chrismadison100

    I ration my sugar and try to spend it on stuff that makes me happy and has other things I need in it.
    Apples are my favorite everyday fruit, heartier and more affordable than berries.
    So many competing theories by the ‘influencers’ and the Diet Docs - what most people forget is that we are all n=1.
    It’s an experiment in what works for YOU: meets your goals, is sustainable, suits your ethics and budget and skill set.
    Tracking helps us determine the result of ‘if I eat X, my weight/mood//health does X.’
    Some people opt not to eat fruit and are healthy, at ideal weight, and thriving.
    Same can be said for others who stay away from fructose.
    Yeah, it’s a sugar. It’s also, when in fruit, accompanied by fiber, micronutrients, antioxidants, other helpful stuff like pectin and resveratrol...

    If you are into it, do the research. Read the studies. Go to nih.gov and get actual data. Decide for yourself. If you see a pop-up proclaiming ‘Doctors say eating Fruit is the worst thing you can do for your health!!!’ use some basic good judgement.

    On the hierarchy of what to demonize, it’s sure a crappy choice.

    I don’t mean to rant. Questions are important and a part of how we start to self educate. Just vet the sources when it comes to sweeping whole-category proclamations like ‘avoid fruit.’
  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    I've noticed that lots of people each fruit. I had the understanding that fruit with the sugar was something that I wanted to stay away from. Any thoughts?

    I wanted to add, that when the WHO states we need to lower our sugar intake they mean added sugars. Things like coke, candy, cookies. Fruit and veggies are not what they mean. Let take a look at 2 sources of sugar. First, a 12 oz can of coke. 120 cals. All from added sugar. Second, an apple med/ large apple. 80 cals. Most from sugar. Not much difference between natural sugar and high fructose with ratios of glucose and fructose, but the apple is nutrient dense.
  • icemom011
    icemom011 Posts: 999 Member
    edited March 2019
    19krd2u5kyad.jpg
    So this is my breakfast. 1/3 of a cup oatmeal, 1 1/4 cups water, dash of salt, some fruit chopped in and Greek yogurt, plus cinnamon and pumpkin spice. I precook oats in instant pot for two servings, and it yields two cups of yummy stuff plus add ons. I use frozen mango, blueberries, and 1/4 of a banana. I find it filling and satisfying, spices and toppings could be adjusted to taste.
  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    crazyravr wrote: »
    icemom011 wrote: »
    So this is my breakfast. 1/3 of a cup oatmeal, 1 1/4 cups water, dash of salt, some fruit chopped in and Greek yogurt, plus cinnamon and pumpkin spice. I precook oats in instant pot for two servings, and it yields two cups of yummy stuff plus add ons. I use frozen mango, blueberries, and 1/4 of a banana. I find it filling and satisfying, spices and toppings could be adjusted to taste.

    You and I and many others will have a very different idea of what volume means haha :)

    We all dont have your stomach abilities. I am a volumish eater... lol
  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    icemom011 wrote: »
    19krd2u5kyad.jpg
    So this is my breakfast. 1/3 of a cup oatmeal, 1 1/4 cups water, dash of salt, some fruit chopped in and Greek yogurt, plus cinnamon and pumpkin spice. I precook oats in instant pot for two servings, and it yields two cups of yummy stuff plus add ons. I use frozen mango, blueberries, and 1/4 of a banana. I find it filling and satisfying, spices and toppings could be adjusted to taste.

    I have noticed that by adding a little xanthan gum to my oats, thickens them up nicely..
  • icemom011
    icemom011 Posts: 999 Member
    @crazyravr , are you poo-pooing my breakfast, lol? It's just a small meal to hold me over until lunch. I have a gallon size ziplock bag of raw veggies, plus fruit and protein to fill me up. It doesn't always, but in my head I know I've eaten enough. Gotta save my extra calories for "expensive" snacks, haha
  • icemom011
    icemom011 Posts: 999 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    icemom011 wrote: »
    19krd2u5kyad.jpg
    So this is my breakfast. 1/3 of a cup oatmeal, 1 1/4 cups water, dash of salt, some fruit chopped in and Greek yogurt, plus cinnamon and pumpkin spice. I precook oats in instant pot for two servings, and it yields two cups of yummy stuff plus add ons. I use frozen mango, blueberries, and 1/4 of a banana. I find it filling and satisfying, spices and toppings could be adjusted to taste.

    I have noticed that by adding a little xanthan gum to my oats, thickens them up nicely..

    Nice! I find that fruit does a good job, and it's good for my ever present sweet tooth.
  • icemom011
    icemom011 Posts: 999 Member
    crazyravr wrote: »
    icemom011 wrote: »
    @crazyravr , are you poo-pooing my breakfast, lol? It's just a small meal to hold me over until lunch. I have a gallon size ziplock bag of raw veggies, plus fruit and protein to fill me up. It doesn't always, but in my head I know I've eaten enough. Gotta save my extra calories for "expensive" snacks, haha

    Not at all, I eat this too. Actually Quakers apple cinnamon 3 days in a row now at work microwaved and adding some fruit after, but this is not a volume breakfast at all hehehe. Its a morning snack :)

    I disagree. What makes it a volume is a fact that it takes about 3 tablespoons of oats and it produces a respectable 2 cup volume for a very small amount of calories. Reality is, yes, it's kind of a morning snack, but it's still better than two eggs and a toast that I'm having on Sundays lately, cause that feels like i didn't eat anything ;(
  • alteredsteve175
    alteredsteve175 Posts: 2,726 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »

    I have noticed that by adding a little xanthan gum to my oats, thickens them up nicely..

    I have added xanthan gum to protein "ice cream". It does make it creamier, but it also leaves a slick mouthfeel that I don't care for. Has anyone used guar gum or something else as a thickening agent? Do they all have that slick effect?

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  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »

    I have noticed that by adding a little xanthan gum to my oats, thickens them up nicely..

    I have added xanthan gum to protein "ice cream". It does make it creamier, but it also leaves a slick mouthfeel that I don't care for. Has anyone used guar gum or something else as a thickening agent? Do they all have that slick effect?

    I have used guar gum. Yup.. a little...
  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    crazyravr wrote: »
    icemom011 wrote: »
    @crazyravr , are you poo-pooing my breakfast, lol? It's just a small meal to hold me over until lunch. I have a gallon size ziplock bag of raw veggies, plus fruit and protein to fill me up. It doesn't always, but in my head I know I've eaten enough. Gotta save my extra calories for "expensive" snacks, haha

    Not at all, I eat this too. Actually Quakers apple cinnamon 3 days in a row now at work microwaved and adding some fruit after, but this is not a volume breakfast at all hehehe. Its a morning snack :)

    Sorry so off topic, but I looked at your diary to see what kind of volume you eat and had to ask are you cutting currently? You seem to eat so little for a male! 1500-1700?

    I don't think he logs here. Just uses the forums ma'am
  • PAPYRUS3
    PAPYRUS3 Posts: 13,259 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »

    I have noticed that by adding a little xanthan gum to my oats, thickens them up nicely..

    I have added xanthan gum to protein "ice cream". It does make it creamier, but it also leaves a slick mouthfeel that I don't care for. Has anyone used guar gum or something else as a thickening agent? Do they all have that slick effect?

    I found guar gum makes it extremely gloppy...and I find it really makes it 'gluey'(I use in my ice 'cream' fluff too. I use Xanthan and like it though....maybe use extra flavoring?
  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    crazyravr wrote: »
    crazyravr wrote: »
    icemom011 wrote: »
    @crazyravr , are you poo-pooing my breakfast, lol? It's just a small meal to hold me over until lunch. I have a gallon size ziplock bag of raw veggies, plus fruit and protein to fill me up. It doesn't always, but in my head I know I've eaten enough. Gotta save my extra calories for "expensive" snacks, haha

    Not at all, I eat this too. Actually Quakers apple cinnamon 3 days in a row now at work microwaved and adding some fruit after, but this is not a volume breakfast at all hehehe. Its a morning snack :)

    Sorry so off topic, but I looked at your diary to see what kind of volume you eat and had to ask are you cutting currently? You seem to eat so little for a male! 1500-1700?

    Yes. Cutting at the moment.
    Also, I am not tracking everything that I eat, not even close. As long as I am accomplishing what I intend to do at the moment, lose weight but retain the strength, I am a happy happy boy :) and dont want to track.
    I am pretty sure right now I consume about 2000cal daily. Dont look at the calories burned, my garmin watch is garbage when it comes to lifting and tracking. I only use it for time :)
    psychod787 wrote: »
    crazyravr wrote: »
    icemom011 wrote: »
    @crazyravr , are you poo-pooing my breakfast, lol? It's just a small meal to hold me over until lunch. I have a gallon size ziplock bag of raw veggies, plus fruit and protein to fill me up. It doesn't always, but in my head I know I've eaten enough. Gotta save my extra calories for "expensive" snacks, haha

    Not at all, I eat this too. Actually Quakers apple cinnamon 3 days in a row now at work microwaved and adding some fruit after, but this is not a volume breakfast at all hehehe. Its a morning snack :)

    Sorry so off topic, but I looked at your diary to see what kind of volume you eat and had to ask are you cutting currently? You seem to eat so little for a male! 1500-1700?

    I don't think he logs here. Just uses the forums ma'am

    No no. I log. Not very accurate but I do :)

    Too bad we cant perma bulk anymore!😅
  • purplefizzy
    purplefizzy Posts: 594 Member
    Bumppppp.
    Where are my volumetric peeps?
    I rely on this thread for inspiration.

    I’m still on an ‘experiments with gelatin’ kick- working on perfecting my monksweet/stevia sweetened marshmallows - aka ‘collagen bites.’

    Also digging the filling from ‘Raver’s ‘WZ cake’ as a protein pudding whip thing.
    Whipped cottage cheese (sweetener of choice, flavors) plus gelatin, whipped to insane billow-y mousse texture, then chilled & topped with cacao nibs Or coconut shreds or.....
    Protein-volume-extravaganza!!

    Cmmon ya’ll- whatchu filling your bellies with?
    Help me prevent ‘couch spread’ until I’m cleared for activity again!
  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    crazyravr wrote: »
    Bumppppp.
    Where are my volumetric peeps?
    I rely on this thread for inspiration.

    I’m still on an ‘experiments with gelatin’ kick- working on perfecting my monksweet/stevia sweetened marshmallows - aka ‘collagen bites.’

    Also digging the filling from ‘Raver’s ‘WZ cake’ as a protein pudding whip thing.
    Whipped cottage cheese (sweetener of choice, flavors) plus gelatin, whipped to insane billow-y mousse texture, then chilled & topped with cacao nibs Or coconut shreds or.....
    Protein-volume-extravaganza!!

    Cmmon ya’ll- whatchu filling your bellies with?
    Help me prevent ‘couch spread’ until I’m cleared for activity again!

    I am currently layed out with a slipped disk. Sucks big time. Had to cancel my vacation because of this BS.

    HTF did you slip a disk?
  • geiznekcm
    geiznekcm Posts: 1,357 Member
    Good day, All!! I pray you All are fantastic.
    Can you All offer me some perspective on my way of eating....?
    ****Before I begin another long inquiry, I need to emphasize that this will be a lengthy post -- please pardon my lack of concision. And know that I do not intend to nag nor overwhelm -- Ever!! Moreover, I appreciate any genuine, sincere responses. Thank you.****
    I am hesitant to even type all of this, because I don't intend to seem anal, or inferior about things. In addition, I realize how much the following "full day of eating" is in volume --- realistically, it is an outrageous amount of food! That is one reason why I am wary about exceeding my body's caloric needs (basal, minimal activity. Goal is fat loss, or weight maintenance). Despite consuming an abundance of lower-calorie foods, all the calories add up ---- especially in these portions.
    Anyway, here is my outrageous amount of food for today:
    • 1 cup of liquid egg whites
    • 1 scoop of Vital Proteins beef gelatin
    • 6 ounces of blueberries (entire container..)
    • 10 cups cubed watermelon (yes, 9+1 whole cups..)
    • 1 large honeycrisp apple
    • grapes (I-don't-know-how-many amount. That's how many.)

    Again, please forgive me for not being brief, and for pestering y'All with such a goofy concern. I admit I am embarrassed --- about absolutely every thing to do with my inquiry.

    Thank you, again. God bless this community.

    I have incredible respect for you if you've reached the end of this in one go.
  • geiznekcm
    geiznekcm Posts: 1,357 Member
    edited March 2019
    crazyravr wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    crazyravr wrote: »
    Bumppppp.
    Where are my volumetric peeps?
    I rely on this thread for inspiration.

    I’m still on an ‘experiments with gelatin’ kick- working on perfecting my monksweet/stevia sweetened marshmallows - aka ‘collagen bites.’

    Also digging the filling from ‘Raver’s ‘WZ cake’ as a protein pudding whip thing.
    Whipped cottage cheese (sweetener of choice, flavors) plus gelatin, whipped to insane billow-y mousse texture, then chilled & topped with cacao nibs Or coconut shreds or.....
    Protein-volume-extravaganza!!

    Cmmon ya’ll- whatchu filling your bellies with?
    Help me prevent ‘couch spread’ until I’m cleared for activity again!

    I am currently layed out with a slipped disk. Sucks big time. Had to cancel my vacation because of this BS.

    HTF did you slip a disk?

    Because I was being a complete moron going for a max-1 rep dead lift and tried to hold a slipping bar. Again, completely my fault.

    Wow, I am so sorry to hear this.....
    I pray that you recover speedily -- and if not speedily, well and fully -- when the time is right. Be of good cheer!! And thank you for all of your inspiring, helpful posts. (:
  • alteredsteve175
    alteredsteve175 Posts: 2,726 Member
    crazyravr wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »

    HTF did you slip a disk?

    Because I was being a complete moron going for a max-1 rep dead lift and tried to hold a slipping bar. Again, completely my fault.

    Ouch! Hope you heal quickly, sir!

  • purplefizzy
    purplefizzy Posts: 594 Member
    crazyravr wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    crazyravr wrote: »
    Bumppppp.
    Where are my volumetric peeps?
    I rely on this thread for inspiration.

    I’m still on an ‘experiments with gelatin’ kick- working on perfecting my monksweet/stevia sweetened marshmallows - aka ‘collagen bites.’

    Also digging the filling from ‘Raver’s ‘WZ cake’ as a protein pudding whip thing.
    Whipped cottage cheese (sweetener of choice, flavors) plus gelatin, whipped to insane billow-y mousse texture, then chilled & topped with cacao nibs Or coconut shreds or.....
    Protein-volume-extravaganza!!

    Cmmon ya’ll- whatchu filling your bellies with?
    Help me prevent ‘couch spread’ until I’m cleared for activity again!

    I am currently layed out with a slipped disk. Sucks big time. Had to cancel my vacation because of this BS.

    HTF did you slip a disk?

    Because I was being a complete moron going for a max-1 rep dead lift and tried to hold a slipping bar. Again, completely my fault.

    I am SO SORRY and I so get it. Despite the fact that our overzealous fitness behavior might have ‘caused’ injury (in my case, a year+ of 100-150 mile weeks) it stil sucks SO HARD.
    Blame/fault is pretty useless once the damage is done. It doesn’t speed healing to feel even crazier about a crap situation. But again- I get it on EVERY level and I’m really, really sorry to hear it.
    Heal and come back to us stronger!
  • purplefizzy
    purplefizzy Posts: 594 Member
    edited March 2019
    geiznekcm wrote: »
    Good day, All!! I pray you All are fantastic.
    Can you All offer me some perspective on my way of eating....?
    ****Before I begin another long inquiry, I need to emphasize that this will be a lengthy post -- please pardon my lack of concision. And know that I do not intend to nag nor overwhelm -- Ever!! Moreover, I appreciate any genuine, sincere responses. Thank you.****
    I am hesitant to even type all of this, because I don't intend to seem anal, or inferior about things. In addition, I realize how much the following "full day of eating" is in volume --- realistically, it is an outrageous amount of food! That is one reason why I am wary about exceeding my body's caloric needs (basal, minimal activity. Goal is fat loss, or weight maintenance). Despite consuming an abundance of lower-calorie foods, all the calories add up ---- especially in these portions.
    Anyway, here is my outrageous amount of food for today:
    • 1 cup of liquid egg whites
    • 1 scoop of Vital Proteins beef gelatin
    • 6 ounces of blueberries (entire container..)
    • 10 cups cubed watermelon (yes, 9+1 whole cups..)
    • 1 large honeycrisp apple
    • grapes (I-don't-know-how-many amount. That's how many.)

    Again, please forgive me for not being brief, and for pestering y'All with such a goofy concern. I admit I am embarrassed --- about absolutely every thing to do with my inquiry.

    Thank you, again. God bless this community.

    I have incredible respect for you if you've reached the end of this in one go.

    Not clear what the exact question is.
    Are you looking to determine if this is ‘normal’?
    There’s no such thing.
    Many of us consume volumes of fresh foods.
    Are you meeting your goals?
    Are you getting adequate nutrients, on the whole, macro and micro?
    Do you have enough energy to feel the way you want to feel and do the stuff you want to do?

    I go thru big fruit phases occasionally. More veggies these days. I crave colorful crunchy stuff and feel like my energy is more stable with less fruit, but that’s just me...

    If you are looking for perspective in relative terms, my day (minimal activity, rehabbing an injury, my goal is healing tissue, food enjoyment, weight/health maintenance, and eating for brain health..)
    -MCT oil and collagen in coffee
    -1c egg whites whipped into keto meringue cookies (I’ll eat these thru the day)
    -4T paleo gelatin, made into monk fruit marshmallows (same)
    -aquafaba cacao nibs whip

    To come:
    Huge veggie dinner (soup, plus LOTS if roasted and fresh veg as toppings)
    Pulled chicken
    Sprinkle of nuts
    Some avocado

    Maybe an apple (one the size of my head.) Likely eaten in bed. With my dog.
  • geiznekcm
    geiznekcm Posts: 1,357 Member
    geiznekcm wrote: »
    Good day, All!! I pray you All are fantastic.
    Can you All offer me some perspective on my way of eating....?
    ****Before I begin another long inquiry, I need to emphasize that this will be a lengthy post -- please pardon my lack of concision. And know that I do not intend to nag nor overwhelm -- Ever!! Moreover, I appreciate any genuine, sincere responses. Thank you.****
    I am hesitant to even type all of this, because I don't intend to seem anal, or inferior about things. In addition, I realize how much the following "full day of eating" is in volume --- realistically, it is an outrageous amount of food! That is one reason why I am wary about exceeding my body's caloric needs (basal, minimal activity. Goal is fat loss, or weight maintenance). Despite consuming an abundance of lower-calorie foods, all the calories add up ---- especially in these portions.
    Anyway, here is my outrageous amount of food for today:
    • 1 cup of liquid egg whites
    • 1 scoop of Vital Proteins beef gelatin
    • 6 ounces of blueberries (entire container..)
    • 10 cups cubed watermelon (yes, 9+1 whole cups..)
    • 1 large honeycrisp apple
    • grapes (I-don't-know-how-many amount. That's how many.)

    Again, please forgive me for not being brief, and for pestering y'All with such a goofy concern. I admit I am embarrassed --- about absolutely every thing to do with my inquiry.

    Thank you, again. God bless this community.

    I have incredible respect for you if you've reached the end of this in one go.

    Not clear what the exact question is.
    Are you looking to determine if this is ‘normal’?
    There’s no such thing.
    Many of us consume volumes of fresh foods.
    Are you meeting your goals?
    Are you getting adequate nutrients, on the whole, macro and micro?
    Do you have enough energy to feel the way you want to feel and do the stuff you want to do?

    I go thru big fruit phases occasionally. More veggies these days. I crave colorful crunchy stuff and feel like my energy is more stable with less fruit, but that’s just me...

    If you are looking for perspective in relative terms, my day (minimal activity, rehabbing an injury, my goal is healing tissue, food enjoyment, weight/health maintenance, and eating for brain health..)
    -MCT oil and collagen in coffee
    -1c egg whites whipped into keto meringue cookies (I’ll eat these thru the day)
    -4T paleo gelatin, made into monk fruit marshmallows (same)
    -aquafaba cacao nibs whip

    To come:
    Huge veggie dinner (soup, plus LOTS if roasted and fresh veg as toppings)
    Pulled chicken
    Sprinkle of nuts
    Some avocado

    Maybe an apple (one the size of my head.) Likely eaten in bed. With my dog.

    Firstly, thank you for responding, and for withholding judgment. I realize, especially after rereading my most recent post, how incoherent my language is. I think I might not be sure what I am trying to ask -- I'm just worried. Again, I sincerely apologize for not being more helpful so I can be helped. Thank you for reaching back, despite my shortcomings. (:
    Secondly, if there is even a way to linguistically express my concerns, I think I would say that I am fretting that I am overeating "healthy" (meaning whole, unprocessed foods). Even unprocessed foods in excess lead to just that -- excess. Excess food, excess calories, and consequential fat gain.
    I fret that I emphasize the "volume" in "volume eating": for example, my typical salad (which I have almost every day) doesn't even fit into the largest mixing bowl in my cupboards. The base is roughly twenty cups (yes, I know, I am a cattle) of salad greens (lettuce, spinach),
    PLUS several cups of vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower --- usually about two bags of those "Steam ready" packs...),
    PLUS a protein (egg whites, a can of tuna, or some other vegetable.)
    Then, on top of ALL of that, I'll have multiple servings of fruits throughout the day.
    I don't want to put my body into some kind of shocked state. Surely, all the calories from servings and servings of low calorie foods can sabotage my goals of fat loss.
    I feel glutinous just typing it all out.
    Again, I am so sorry to burden you not only with my long list of foods, but my personal woes.

    Moreover,
    I am so sorry you are currently coping with an injury. I admire your positive outlook and your commitment to your wellbeing overall, and not just fixating on your "fitness". You seem to have grip on what a sustainable, enjoyable way of living looks like. (: I pray for your healing, and your endurance.

    Thank you xx
  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    crazyravr wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    crazyravr wrote: »
    Bumppppp.
    Where are my volumetric peeps?
    I rely on this thread for inspiration.

    I’m still on an ‘experiments with gelatin’ kick- working on perfecting my monksweet/stevia sweetened marshmallows - aka ‘collagen bites.’

    Also digging the filling from ‘Raver’s ‘WZ cake’ as a protein pudding whip thing.
    Whipped cottage cheese (sweetener of choice, flavors) plus gelatin, whipped to insane billow-y mousse texture, then chilled & topped with cacao nibs Or coconut shreds or.....
    Protein-volume-extravaganza!!

    Cmmon ya’ll- whatchu filling your bellies with?
    Help me prevent ‘couch spread’ until I’m cleared for activity again!

    I am currently layed out with a slipped disk. Sucks big time. Had to cancel my vacation because of this BS.

    HTF did you slip a disk?

    Because I was being a complete moron going for a max-1 rep dead lift and tried to hold a slipping bar. Again, completely my fault.

    Get well soon Godfather.... on a side note... strawberries are finally in season here in Florida! $1.99 US a lb right now!
  • nowine4me
    nowine4me Posts: 3,985 Member
    cme2tgmgnjti.jpeg
    My fellow fluffers. Quest cold brew with Walden’s syrup is pure, fluffin bliss!
  • Tankiscool
    Tankiscool Posts: 11,105 Member
    nowine4me wrote: »
    xcyfggj3k9ak.jpeg
    First fluff of the year with a wee side of Jameson.

    You are speaking my language with these!
    nowine4me wrote: »
    cme2tgmgnjti.jpeg
    My fellow fluffers. Quest cold brew with Walden’s syrup is pure, fluffin bliss!

    Did you use cold brew coffee as the liquid?
  • nowine4me
    nowine4me Posts: 3,985 Member
    edited March 2019
    Unsweet vanilla almond milk, a dash of vanilla and some Kalhuah (sp?) over top.