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Food Stamps Restriction
Replies
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That's the price of handling it in DC instead of the local community. If the money had to come from your neighbors/community, the people actually providing the money would have a good idea of someone was really down on their luck or making assistance their vocation.
My wife is a social worker and she encounters both.
Help those who are suffering a temporary setback. Few have issues with that. Most have issues with those who make getting assistance a career choice.
Most people work too hard for their money to have it frittered away by those who work the system.
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tbright1965 wrote: »That's the price of handling it in DC instead of the local community. If the money had to come from your neighbors/community, the people actually providing the money would have a good idea of someone was really down on their luck or making assistance their vocation.
Equally it makes it much easier to deny support to those whose eyes are too close together, or have a lifestyle that people disapprove of. There is a lot of value in having this kind of thing managed by a dispassionate system.
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MeanderingMammal wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »That's the price of handling it in DC instead of the local community. If the money had to come from your neighbors/community, the people actually providing the money would have a good idea of someone was really down on their luck or making assistance their vocation.
Equally it makes it much easier to deny support to those whose eyes are too close together, or have a lifestyle that people disapprove of. There is a lot of value in having this kind of thing managed by a dispassionate system.
But does that outweigh lack of incentives for getting people off of support? If those administering the programs will be out of work if no one needs the program, will it ever be shut down? If political representatives can hide any waste, fraud and abuse by suggesting it's the other guy, will it ever be reformed?
Like I said, if you want to voluntarily contribute to a DC managed program, knock yourself out. For those of us who think these things are better managed locally, let us send our dollars as we see fit instead of having them go through the political process with all the pitfalls that process entails.
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tbright1965 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »That's the price of handling it in DC instead of the local community. If the money had to come from your neighbors/community, the people actually providing the money would have a good idea of someone was really down on their luck or making assistance their vocation.
Equally it makes it much easier to deny support to those whose eyes are too close together, or have a lifestyle that people disapprove of. There is a lot of value in having this kind of thing managed by a dispassionate system.
But does that outweigh lack of incentives for getting people off of support?
Nobody has offered anything except anecdata suggesting that there aren't.
I commented upthread that here in the UK those areas where there is systemic generational dependence tend to be those that have never recovered from the collapse of mineral recovery and heavy manufacturing in the 70s and 80s. We've still got economic black holes where no alternative exists.If those administering the programs will be out of work if no one needs the program, will it ever be shut down? If political representatives can hide any waste, fraud and abuse by suggesting it's the other guy, will it ever be reformed?
Tin foil hats all round.
And county clerks refusing service when they think their imaginary friend wouldn't like it.5 -
deannalfisher wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »nkovacs53804 wrote: »It’s a huge problem. We deliver “snack packs” to families with kids that have asked for help.
Not one of these families has ever said “thanks” but instead has requested specific free foods.
Soda and other snack food on EBT...no.
When all else fails one could actually join the workforce.
Every person I know personally who receives food stamps, does so gratefully, and also works 50 or more hours a week. What about demanding a livable wage instead of assuming every poor person is lazy?
Livable wages, while a very prominent and powerful political rallying cry, are a self-defeating proposal - ask any of the small business owners who used to have businesses in downtown Seattle or San Fran.
I think I've made this observation upthread, but if a business doesn't pay people enough, and they need state support, then that's essentially a subsidy to the business owner. Is it appropriate that the state keeps businesses afloat?
No it isn't - it is a subsidy of the life choices that the EMPLOYEE made, not the business owner. Put the responsibility where it belongs. The employer made a contract with the employee - you work for me, I pay you 'x'. As long as the employer keeps up his side of the bargain, he has satisfied his responsibility. Anything beyond that falls squarely on the shoulders of the employee.
I disagree with this completely. business have an obligation to have a social and communal conscious and make the appropriate contribution to its people and community. AND if that company cant do it on their own the gvt has a right and obligation to impose it.
With statements like this....it is very easy to see how fascist regimes get their foot hold.
i feel like i'm in Orwell's 1984
you two guys are too funny...who ended slavery? THE GOVERNMENT...the government DOES impose social norms and community contributions either by law or PRESSURE or money. right now social norms and community contributions are being changed and pushed backwards...by our new president and his business buddies - where do you live under a rock?
...but you believe you can forcibly take the labor of one man to give to another?
Sounds like you would have been on the losing side of that war.
I have never been on welfare, food stamps or any other kind of assistance. so no I am not losing any war. READ CURRANT EVENTS...that should help you.
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How many steps are any of us away from needing financial and emotional support. Life changing consequences of a major road accident or life threatening illness, divorce or being thrown out by a past partner, workplaces closing under one with not hope of other employment, even leaving the military with post traumatic stress. Why not be generous, give support to facilitate a phoenix rising from the pain for the benefit of one an all, rather than compound the indignities. there but for..................................................
Help people regain their self respect and equip them to be able to pay tax again.6 -
I see nothing wrong with stating that the food purchased with food stamps fit a certain criteria. It's free money for food to feed families. Food stamps are meant to be supplemental, not replace a food budget. In 1999, I became a single mother of 4. After a broken ear drum, disclocated jaw, more bruises and "falls" than I can count I had finally had enough. Feeding a family of five on one income is difficult! For the first time in my life, I accepted assistance. I felt that extra money was to feed my kids at nutritionally as I could. I bought staples like milk, eggs, bread, fruits, vegetables, and meat. I never bought chips, snacks, soda or luxury items like steak. It was my belief that my own paycheck should buy the extras. If I couldn't afford them, we didn't have them. That was just my thought process. After nine months, I figured out a budget that worked for me and stopped accepting help. Others may disagree and say that they should have the right to treats like everyone else. I feel that if they want those extras, they pay for them with earned money.6
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How many steps are any of us away from needing financial and emotional support. Life changing consequences of a major road accident or life threatening illness, divorce or being thrown out by a past partner, workplaces closing under one with not hope of other employment, even leaving the military with post traumatic stress. Why not be generous, give support to facilitate a phoenix rising from the pain for the benefit of one an all, rather than compound the indignities. there but for..................................................
Help people regain their self respect and equip them to be able to pay tax again.
And restricting the use of foodstamps to nutrient dense items would help ensure recipients get the most benefit from the program.4 -
debrakgoogins wrote: »I see nothing wrong with stating that the food purchased with food stamps fit a certain criteria. It's free money for food to feed families. Food stamps are meant to be supplemental, not replace a food budget. In 1999, I became a single mother of 4. After a broken ear drum, disclocated jaw, more bruises and "falls" than I can count I had finally had enough. Feeding a family of five on one income is difficult! For the first time in my life, I accepted assistance. I felt that extra money was to feed my kids at nutritionally as I could. I bought staples like milk, eggs, bread, fruits, vegetables, and meat. I never bought chips, snacks, soda or luxury items like steak. It was my belief that my own paycheck should buy the extras. If I couldn't afford them, we didn't have them. That was just my thought process. After nine months, I figured out a budget that worked for me and stopped accepting help. Others may disagree and say that they should have the right to treats like everyone else. I feel that if they want those extras, they pay for them with earned money.
Good for you. In my mind that is how the process should work in the majority of cases.0 -
deannalfisher wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »nkovacs53804 wrote: »It’s a huge problem. We deliver “snack packs” to families with kids that have asked for help.
Not one of these families has ever said “thanks” but instead has requested specific free foods.
Soda and other snack food on EBT...no.
When all else fails one could actually join the workforce.
Every person I know personally who receives food stamps, does so gratefully, and also works 50 or more hours a week. What about demanding a livable wage instead of assuming every poor person is lazy?
Livable wages, while a very prominent and powerful political rallying cry, are a self-defeating proposal - ask any of the small business owners who used to have businesses in downtown Seattle or San Fran.
I think I've made this observation upthread, but if a business doesn't pay people enough, and they need state support, then that's essentially a subsidy to the business owner. Is it appropriate that the state keeps businesses afloat?
No it isn't - it is a subsidy of the life choices that the EMPLOYEE made, not the business owner. Put the responsibility where it belongs. The employer made a contract with the employee - you work for me, I pay you 'x'. As long as the employer keeps up his side of the bargain, he has satisfied his responsibility. Anything beyond that falls squarely on the shoulders of the employee.
I disagree with this completely. business have an obligation to have a social and communal conscious and make the appropriate contribution to its people and community. AND if that company cant do it on their own the gvt has a right and obligation to impose it.
With statements like this....it is very easy to see how fascist regimes get their foot hold.
i feel like i'm in Orwell's 1984
you two guys are too funny...who ended slavery? THE GOVERNMENT...the government DOES impose social norms and community contributions either by law or PRESSURE or money. right now social norms and community contributions are being changed and pushed backwards...by our new president and his business buddies - where do you live under a rock?
...but you believe you can forcibly take the labor of one man to give to another?
Sounds like you would have been on the losing side of that war.
I have never been on welfare, food stamps or any other kind of assistance. so no I am not losing any war. READ CURRANT EVENTS...that should help you.
Currant events? Like wine tastings?
I'm in!5 -
Moby has a contribution to the debate: https://www.wsj.com/articles/food-stamps-shouldnt-pay-for-junk-1523315448
Note, this is behind a paywall. I read it on my phone but I can't find a non-paywall link at the moment.0 -
100_PROOF_ wrote: »I went to Walmart in an urban area last night because I ran out of puppy pads and the pet store was closed. I was approached 2 different times on my way in the store and while fetching a cart, if I would be willing to let them pay for my food on their food stamp card and in return if I could give them 50 % of the total in cash.
Each time I declined and said that I was not even buying food, just puppy supplies and that they should feed their kids with the EBT card instead.
I told the clerk and she said " yep the first week of the month is always flooded with people trying to sell their food stamps for cash. "
It's a shame to see it and such a smack in the face to those tax payers that help fund it. Fwiw I was leaving my accountants office late so didn't get a chance to run to the pet store. I can barely make my tax payments but people can so blatantly abuse the system. I don't care if it's only a dollar of my money that funded that, it's still a smack in the face.
It's a smack in the face unless the items they want to buy with your cash are things like toilet paper, laundry detergent, and diapers. Some people abuse the system to go buy things like alcohol, cigarettes, etc., but some use that money to buy other essentials that EBT won't pay for.3 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »That's the price of handling it in DC instead of the local community. If the money had to come from your neighbors/community, the people actually providing the money would have a good idea of someone was really down on their luck or making assistance their vocation.
Equally it makes it much easier to deny support to those whose eyes are too close together, or have a lifestyle that people disapprove of. There is a lot of value in having this kind of thing managed by a dispassionate system.
Also, there are often poor communities where a large part of the population there needs support. If it's not drawing from a larger area with more affluent communities, where does the money come from? I'm not religious, but there's that bible story about that woman giving her only two gems or whatever as a donation, and people jump on her for not giving enough, and Jesus jumps on them because she gave everything she had. Good for her. That said, poor people giving everything they have isn't enough, no matter how generous their hearts. Wealthy people giving just some of what they have is what makes these programs work, even if they are forced to give. Given the choice, I'd stop paying taxes until we shut down half of our military bases abroad and cut back our defense spending until it's not bigger than Russia's, China's, Saudi Arabia, France, and the next five other countries combined, but I don't get to choose where my taxes go, and neither do you.5 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »That's the price of handling it in DC instead of the local community. If the money had to come from your neighbors/community, the people actually providing the money would have a good idea of someone was really down on their luck or making assistance their vocation.
Equally it makes it much easier to deny support to those whose eyes are too close together, or have a lifestyle that people disapprove of. There is a lot of value in having this kind of thing managed by a dispassionate system.
But does that outweigh lack of incentives for getting people off of support?
Nobody has offered anything except anecdata suggesting that there aren't.
I commented upthread that here in the UK those areas where there is systemic generational dependence tend to be those that have never recovered from the collapse of mineral recovery and heavy manufacturing in the 70s and 80s. We've still got economic black holes where no alternative exists.If those administering the programs will be out of work if no one needs the program, will it ever be shut down? If political representatives can hide any waste, fraud and abuse by suggesting it's the other guy, will it ever be reformed?
Tin foil hats all round.
And county clerks refusing service when they think their imaginary friend wouldn't like it.
^ speaking of tin foil hats. Afraid the local officials won't give the aid.
That's my argument. Take it out of the hands of the politically motivated and support those who support your values.
You made my point. Helping one another is too important to be left to bureaucrats and politicians.2 -
tbright1965 wrote: »Take it out of the hands of the politically motivated and support those who support your values.
Take it away from one instance of political control, and give it to a different instance of political control that's more to your liking.
What about those who don't share your values? Just leave them to fend for themselves?
If I might use an example, single veteran with two kids. Deserving or undeserving poor?
I would observe that in the US political influence in the machinery of the state is far deeper than elsewhere. Most liberal democracies manage to separate the business of government from the politics. To the extent where politicians interfering in local service delivery is newsworthy.
I'd also note that whilst you've got an institutional separation of church and state, the penetration of conservative christianity into your machinery of government is quite astounding.10 -
JMcGee2018 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »That's the price of handling it in DC instead of the local community. If the money had to come from your neighbors/community, the people actually providing the money would have a good idea of someone was really down on their luck or making assistance their vocation.
Equally it makes it much easier to deny support to those whose eyes are too close together, or have a lifestyle that people disapprove of. There is a lot of value in having this kind of thing managed by a dispassionate system.
Also, there are often poor communities where a large part of the population there needs support.
I wouldn't disagree. In my later post I've noted that in the UK many of the areas where we have systemic poverty are subject to community poverty; poor educational attainment, higher levels of abortion, high levels of public health issues, frequently a skewed demographic where potential earners move away from the area.
I know from my own experience, having grown up in one of those areas there is nothing that would encourage me to go back. School friends who never managed to break out are now in a situation where they're never going to.
There is a horrifying naivete from the foaming at the mouth right wing. Those who want personal freedom, but only if people conform to their societal expectations and demands.7 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »JMcGee2018 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »That's the price of handling it in DC instead of the local community. If the money had to come from your neighbors/community, the people actually providing the money would have a good idea of someone was really down on their luck or making assistance their vocation.
Equally it makes it much easier to deny support to those whose eyes are too close together, or have a lifestyle that people disapprove of. There is a lot of value in having this kind of thing managed by a dispassionate system.
Also, there are often poor communities where a large part of the population there needs support.
I wouldn't disagree. In my later post I've noted that in the UK many of the areas where we have systemic poverty are subject to community poverty; poor educational attainment, higher levels of abortion, high levels of public health issues, frequently a skewed demographic where potential earners move away from the area.
I know from my own experience, having grown up in one of those areas there is nothing that would encourage me to go back. School friends who never managed to break out are now in a situation where they're never going to.
There is a horrifying naivete from the foaming at the mouth right wing. Those who want personal freedom, but only if people conform to their societal expectations and demands.
But isn't that what personal freedom is?
Many want personal freedom, for themselves, but expect others to give up the freedom to choose how they will help, how much, and so on.
You don't get personal freedom by taking it away from one and giving it to another.
Christians are not very Christian and Liberals are not really liberals. One is right authoritarian, you must do things my way for the greater good. The other is left authoritarian, you must do things my way for the greater good.
Liberal means that people have the freedom to decide. It doesn't mean we are going to create a large government apparatus, make people "give" to it and pat ourselves on the back saying we are liberal.
The so-called liberals are no less hypocritical than the so-called followers of Christ.4 -
tbright1965 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »JMcGee2018 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »That's the price of handling it in DC instead of the local community. If the money had to come from your neighbors/community, the people actually providing the money would have a good idea of someone was really down on their luck or making assistance their vocation.
Equally it makes it much easier to deny support to those whose eyes are too close together, or have a lifestyle that people disapprove of. There is a lot of value in having this kind of thing managed by a dispassionate system.
Also, there are often poor communities where a large part of the population there needs support.
I wouldn't disagree. In my later post I've noted that in the UK many of the areas where we have systemic poverty are subject to community poverty; poor educational attainment, higher levels of abortion, high levels of public health issues, frequently a skewed demographic where potential earners move away from the area.
I know from my own experience, having grown up in one of those areas there is nothing that would encourage me to go back. School friends who never managed to break out are now in a situation where they're never going to.
There is a horrifying naivete from the foaming at the mouth right wing. Those who want personal freedom, but only if people conform to their societal expectations and demands.
But isn't that what personal freedom is?
Many want personal freedom, for themselves, but expect others to give up the freedom to choose how they will help, how much, and so on.
You don't get personal freedom by taking it away from one and giving it to another.
Christians are not very Christian and Liberals are not really liberals. One is right authoritarian, you must do things my way for the greater good. The other is left authoritarian, you must do things my way for the greater good.
Liberal means that people have the freedom to decide. It doesn't mean we are going to create a large government apparatus, make people "give" to it and pat ourselves on the back saying we are liberal.
The so-called liberals are no less hypocritical than the so-called followers of Christ.
Is there any justification for social safety net programs that passes your hypocritical test? Or is only private funding for things like food assistance, health care, housing for the needing, etc acceptable to you?2 -
nkovacs53804 wrote: »It’s a huge problem. We deliver “snack packs” to families with kids that have asked for help.
Not one of these families has ever said “thanks” but instead has requested specific free foods.
Soda and other snack food on EBT...no.
When all else fails one could actually join the workforce.
Do you have any idea what percentage of adults receiving SNAP already have jobs? HINT: the majority.
Do you know what kinds of programs make the greatest difference for individuals and for local economies? HINT: they involve choice2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »JMcGee2018 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »That's the price of handling it in DC instead of the local community. If the money had to come from your neighbors/community, the people actually providing the money would have a good idea of someone was really down on their luck or making assistance their vocation.
Equally it makes it much easier to deny support to those whose eyes are too close together, or have a lifestyle that people disapprove of. There is a lot of value in having this kind of thing managed by a dispassionate system.
Also, there are often poor communities where a large part of the population there needs support.
I wouldn't disagree. In my later post I've noted that in the UK many of the areas where we have systemic poverty are subject to community poverty; poor educational attainment, higher levels of abortion, high levels of public health issues, frequently a skewed demographic where potential earners move away from the area.
I know from my own experience, having grown up in one of those areas there is nothing that would encourage me to go back. School friends who never managed to break out are now in a situation where they're never going to.
There is a horrifying naivete from the foaming at the mouth right wing. Those who want personal freedom, but only if people conform to their societal expectations and demands.
But isn't that what personal freedom is?
Many want personal freedom, for themselves, but expect others to give up the freedom to choose how they will help, how much, and so on.
You don't get personal freedom by taking it away from one and giving it to another.
Christians are not very Christian and Liberals are not really liberals. One is right authoritarian, you must do things my way for the greater good. The other is left authoritarian, you must do things my way for the greater good.
Liberal means that people have the freedom to decide. It doesn't mean we are going to create a large government apparatus, make people "give" to it and pat ourselves on the back saying we are liberal.
The so-called liberals are no less hypocritical than the so-called followers of Christ.
Is there any justification for social safety net programs that passes your hypocritical test? Or is only private funding for things like food assistance, health care, housing for the needing, etc acceptable to you?
People are free to voluntarily fund such programs per their personal values.
(So called) liberals should not be able to impose their values on others any more than (so called) Christians should be able to impose their values on others.
I have nothing against programs, as long as they are funded with money freely given by others. That is the only liberal way to do it. Passing laws to force others to "give" isn't liberal, it's authoritarian.
Just because I'm against GOVERNMENT doing it doesn't mean I'm against it.
If you want government to do it, then start writing them checks. But don't just blanket tax everyone and suggest that your authoritarian bent is for the greater good.
You should be no more worried about what some conservative may or may not support or how they may or may not donate than should any conservative be concerned about who may be sleeping with whom and their marital status.
In a free society, NEITHER should be allowed to impose their vision of the greater good on others.
So no, there is no acceptable level of imposing values on a free citizenry beyond laws that prevent one from causing harm to another.
I.E. being a billionaire because you invented a better mousetrap and sold it doesn't cause harm. Stealing a billion dollars causes harm.
Owning a firearm doesn't cause harm. Shooting someone with that firearm causes harm.
Our rights end at the nose of another. I can't punch you because I think differently. You cannot demand I be taxed because you think people should provide help to another. Both cause harm or limit the freedom of choice.
People should always be free to donate. They should never be compelled to fund another's vision of the greater good. You can ask, individually. But 300 million people voting to take from the billionaires isn't asking. It's mob rule. It's the tyranny of the majority.8 -
Why are they now unable to break out? I'm assuming you're middle agey, but correct me if I'm wrong. Your school friends of yesteryear would today be in the same general age bracket.
The simplest reason that it becomes challenging is the cost to move to somewhere that there are better opportunities.
Looking back, there was a collapse in the local economy, a major manufacturing facility closed down, and a mineral extraction facility closed down. Between them that put some 70% of the working age population out of work. That's a lot of people hitting the system all at once. No jobs to go to, and insufficient opportunity. Even retraining people was going to have a limited impact as they had nothing to move on to.
Thinking about my immediate peer group, many got married pretty much straight out of school. At the time that led to children fairly quickly, and an expectation that women would go into low skill jobs, potentially part time, to allow child care. The proportion of women going on to higher education was low. Those that had bought homes found the value evaporated, with many in negative equity as a result of the collapse of the job market.
Personally my first job, in retail, involved an hour on the train. I had to give that up when my manager rescheduled shifts and it ended up costing me money to have a job. In truth that was only about a month before I joined the military, so the effect wasn't all that significant for me, but it wasn't an atypical situation.
Those that found opportunities generally ended up moving away to exploit them, and I don't imagine any would move back now. Despite a number of regeneration initiatives the area remains destitute. The one remaining industry is small, and has quite a niche market, so few growth opportunities. Other replacements have had low demand for people.
So you've got a situation where people are in poverty. Cost of living whilst in that situation is higher than it is for those who have sufficient cash. There is limited opportunity to build a reserve of capital that might allow a move away.
I'd also note that many also have an emerging need for parental care; the idealised view expressed upthread in practice. If we consider that it takes a raise a child, it needs the same to care for the aged. Dealing with the challenge from several hundred miles away is one thing, but proposing to move even 100 is a very difficult case to make.
So I can look there now and see people who have essentially given up. Equally I see some who would do something else, but are tied into existing responsibilities. And I see those who really don't have the capital, or cash flow.3) they decided not to take advantage of the U.K.'s generous socialized vocational training programs to ready them for the skilled trade of their choosing; 4) they decided not to take advantage of the U.K.'s subsidized accredited, post secondary university learning if they had the scholastic aptitude
I'm not sure where you get your information from, but I don't recognise those suggestions.
I would say that from my peer group, everyone who moved away has done reasonably well; other than one who was murdered by terrorists in the province.
Whilst the area that I grew up isn't unusual, in terms of the effect of that loss of heavy industry, it has suffered more than others in terms of replacement. Several of the former industrial areas have benefited from investment in largely service industries. The issue with that is that the replacement jobs tend to be much lower skill levels, and much lower wages. Where I'm from didn't have the population density to really support a replacement. Contact centres demand an oddly high population. What I would say is that those areas have similar challenges for people trying to break out. Their income isn't enough to build the capital to move away.
What I would say is that all of them recognise the value in education, and in some ways I suspect that their focus is on enabling their children to break out of that cycle. While a first degree is a very limited differentiator in the market, I am seeing university education seen as a must do. Of course that comes with a significant debt liability.3 -
Seriously though, in not recognizing them, are you saying working class Brits pay thousands in steep tuitions to get vocationally trained or to go to Uni? And many educational opportunities aren't socialized but privatized?
Tertiary and further education haven't been significantly subsidised in the UK for years. Postgraduate, I've got no recollection of it ever being anything other than expensive. Changes to the university systems in the mid 90s have led to first degrees being saturated in the market, so to stand out one needs at least a Masters degree.
fwiw someone doing a taught Masters would come out with c£60k in debt, somewhere between 80-90kUSD. Repayment terms on the fees element of that; c£38k are pretty reasonable, but it's still a lot of money.And do you ever read Theodore Dalrymple, just like when you really want to get hot under the collar? (I kid, I kid. But do you?)
He's so right wing that he's seen as somewhat embarrassing by the right.
We are seeing a similar problem around polarisation in the UK, with the strident on both left and right dominating the debate. Unfortunately we have a leadership void in government, and the opposition are completely ineffective, with a leader who lacks any real credibility as someone who could achieve anything. That's leading to a fairly stale political debate, not helped by government being bogged down in the realities of Brexit.
Never mind the detail of implementation, we've got a government that blunders from faux pas, to f**k up and back again without making any progress on principles.
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VintageFeline wrote: »Ah the mythical everyone is perfectly able to get a better job/become healthy fairy. We have those in the UK too.
There was a proposal to issue sort of gift cards for some welfare benefits here. It hasn't, as yet, gained traction. Because even for those with most disdain for poor people it leaves a bad taste in the mouth. And if your life is a grinding drudge of trying to make it to the end of the week whilst the rest of society judges you for not bettering yourself, who am I to judge you for having a soda, or a beer or whatever.
I was attacked once because I bought a £3 DVD in the run up to Christmas when I was flat *kitten* broke and had to ask for help (was at uni and it was through their hardship fund). And yet I have paid plenty of taxes. But I'm a terrible person because I bought something to make me feel better about being poor and alone (estranged from family) at Christmas.
Could happen to any of us. Perhaps if wages were actual living wages then we wouldn't need to have so many of these discussions.
So true! Anything can happen at any time to anybody and turn your world upside down. It happened to us and we nearly lost everything. I am on disability and my husband had a medical emergency, had ER surgery, hospital for a week, and not able to work for 7-8 months. He lost his job and he had no insurance. If it hadn't been for family, friends, and being able to get food stamps for a while, we would have been on the streets. Things snowball.
It's embarrassing enough to have to apply for food stamps when you have worked since you were a teen and are now in your 50's. There's no need to add insult to injury. You never know what people have gone through to get to that situation.
So no I don't think that's a good law. Tobacco and alcohol are a different thing. But food and beverages, yes let them buy them.2 -
The polarization we have in common, and it's getting so intense it even makes a somewhat calloused gal like me a little sad. As an American, I'd like to see less vitriol when opinions differ among our own. You probably feel the same about the state of the British in Britain.
I think I'm probably more exposed to it than many as I'm very interested in politics, largely around how that translates into actually getting things done.But I think the absence of freedom of speech and expression in Britain is mind boggling and incomprehensible by my American sensibilities.
Again, something I don't recognise. In the US I've felt far more restricted in what I can, or can't say, than I ever do here. And working with the US military the humour that I'm used to was far more cutting and brutal than US colleagues were comfortable with.
1 -
jhildebrandt73 wrote: »The government is trying to do what it can to control the child obesity epidemic. It is obvious that parents are failing to make smart decisions so micro management is the only way. Freedom is a fine thing, but without responsibility it is a detriment.
And at what point do you want the government to NOT micro manage? It may not bother you if they micro manage sofa, but what about other parts of your private life? It is a very slippery slope once they start to interfere in any aspect of your personal life.3 -
[And at what point do you want the government to NOT micro manage? It may not bother you if they micro manage sofa, but what about other parts of your private life? It is a very slippery slope once they start to interfere in any aspect of your personal life.
If you're receiving assistance from the government, it is no longer your personal life. It's being paid for by taxpayers. If you earned the money, spend it on what/how you please. If you are receiving a free benefit, use it the way they stipulate you should use it. WIC specifies exactly what you can purchase with the vouchers provided. I see no reason why TANFF shouldn't as well. And, yes, I have received assistance in the past for a very short time so I am familiar with the process and the stigma with being a welfare recipient.5 -
tbright1965 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »JMcGee2018 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »That's the price of handling it in DC instead of the local community. If the money had to come from your neighbors/community, the people actually providing the money would have a good idea of someone was really down on their luck or making assistance their vocation.
Equally it makes it much easier to deny support to those whose eyes are too close together, or have a lifestyle that people disapprove of. There is a lot of value in having this kind of thing managed by a dispassionate system.
Also, there are often poor communities where a large part of the population there needs support.
I wouldn't disagree. In my later post I've noted that in the UK many of the areas where we have systemic poverty are subject to community poverty; poor educational attainment, higher levels of abortion, high levels of public health issues, frequently a skewed demographic where potential earners move away from the area.
I know from my own experience, having grown up in one of those areas there is nothing that would encourage me to go back. School friends who never managed to break out are now in a situation where they're never going to.
There is a horrifying naivete from the foaming at the mouth right wing. Those who want personal freedom, but only if people conform to their societal expectations and demands.
But isn't that what personal freedom is?
Many want personal freedom, for themselves, but expect others to give up the freedom to choose how they will help, how much, and so on.
You don't get personal freedom by taking it away from one and giving it to another.
Christians are not very Christian and Liberals are not really liberals. One is right authoritarian, you must do things my way for the greater good. The other is left authoritarian, you must do things my way for the greater good.
Liberal means that people have the freedom to decide. It doesn't mean we are going to create a large government apparatus, make people "give" to it and pat ourselves on the back saying we are liberal.
The so-called liberals are no less hypocritical than the so-called followers of Christ.
Is there any justification for social safety net programs that passes your hypocritical test? Or is only private funding for things like food assistance, health care, housing for the needing, etc acceptable to you?
People are free to voluntarily fund such programs per their personal values.
(So called) liberals should not be able to impose their values on others any more than (so called) Christians should be able to impose their values on others.
I have nothing against programs, as long as they are funded with money freely given by others. That is the only liberal way to do it. Passing laws to force others to "give" isn't liberal, it's authoritarian.
Just because I'm against GOVERNMENT doing it doesn't mean I'm against it.
If you want government to do it, then start writing them checks. But don't just blanket tax everyone and suggest that your authoritarian bent is for the greater good.
You should be no more worried about what some conservative may or may not support or how they may or may not donate than should any conservative be concerned about who may be sleeping with whom and their marital status.
In a free society, NEITHER should be allowed to impose their vision of the greater good on others.
So no, there is no acceptable level of imposing values on a free citizenry beyond laws that prevent one from causing harm to another.
I.E. being a billionaire because you invented a better mousetrap and sold it doesn't cause harm. Stealing a billion dollars causes harm.
Owning a firearm doesn't cause harm. Shooting someone with that firearm causes harm.
Our rights end at the nose of another. I can't punch you because I think differently. You cannot demand I be taxed because you think people should provide help to another. Both cause harm or limit the freedom of choice.
People should always be free to donate. They should never be compelled to fund another's vision of the greater good. You can ask, individually. But 300 million people voting to take from the billionaires isn't asking. It's mob rule. It's the tyranny of the majority.
I guess I see a distinction between the potential implications of people going without food or medical care and my fellow citizens making sexual decisions that I may personally disagree with.
Are you also against public education?
I don't assume you're against private donations. That's why I specifically asked about your opinions on social safety net programs, not, say, charity. Private donations are a whole different discussion.2 -
I'm ashamed of my countries attitude to those who are down on their luck. But I am totally relieved I do not live in the US. Its good to be everyone's equal and no ones better.6
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debrakgoogins wrote: »[And at what point do you want the government to NOT micro manage? It may not bother you if they micro manage sofa, but what about other parts of your private life? It is a very slippery slope once they start to interfere in any aspect of your personal life.
If you're receiving assistance from the government, it is no longer your personal life. It's being paid for by taxpayers. If you earned the money, spend it on what/how you please. If you are receiving a free benefit, use it the way they stipulate you should use it. WIC specifies exactly what you can purchase with the vouchers provided. I see no reason why TANFF shouldn't as well. And, yes, I have received assistance in the past for a very short time so I am familiar with the process and the stigma with being a welfare recipient.
Just to be clear, we are talking about SNAP, not TANF.0 -
I'm ashamed of my countries attitude to those who are down on their luck. But I am totally relieved I do not live in the US. Its good to be everyone's equal and no ones better.
On what are you basing the idea that people in the UK are everyone's equal and no ones better but that that is not true in the US? (I suspect cultural attitudes are pretty similar here.)2
This discussion has been closed.
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