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Do you think there is any nutritional advantage to eating organic foods to justify the higher cost?
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JustRobby1 wrote: »Wow this thread has certianly spiraled significantly since I made it a couple of days ago. It would seem after scanning over many of the posts here that much of the attachment to organic stems from ideological or emotional reasons rather than practical or health related reasons. There is also some borderline conspiracy theory, but I will ignore that and instead suggest that this is not the Alex Jones forums.
There is also of course the issue of taste, which is the reason any of us eat food to begin with. While this is similarly subjective, I don't think many would dispute that a tomato from a framers market will beat out the grocery store any day of the week. The larger issue as it pertains to cost is not so much with produce but with the multitude of ready made products from places like Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. and the army of pretentious clowns who line up for them. I would suggest that about 90% of such people purchase those products for the same reasons they buy designer handbags, listen to annoying indie pop, and pay 15 bucks for a Latte.
I don't know about your area, but a good portion of the produce at my farmer's market isn't organic and even the places that are following organic practices don't have certification. The tomato tasting better is a completely different issue from the organic question.2 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »meganpettigrew86 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
yeah, it was much better when people were starving to death.
Um, people are starving to death today.
What are you doing about it?
I hate when people use this to argue why you shouldn't leave food on your plate, are you going to mail your food scraps overseas?
Go give to a charity or food to a homeless person.
Is this going to turn into some kind of virtue signalling competition?
It's a discussion of organic food. Which is one of the top virtue signaling elements of our era.2 -
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janejellyroll wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »Wow this thread has certianly spiraled significantly since I made it a couple of days ago. It would seem after scanning over many of the posts here that much of the attachment to organic stems from ideological or emotional reasons rather than practical or health related reasons. There is also some borderline conspiracy theory, but I will ignore that and instead suggest that this is not the Alex Jones forums.
There is also of course the issue of taste, which is the reason any of us eat food to begin with. While this is similarly subjective, I don't think many would dispute that a tomato from a framers market will beat out the grocery store any day of the week. The larger issue as it pertains to cost is not so much with produce but with the multitude of ready made products from places like Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. and the army of pretentious clowns who line up for them. I would suggest that about 90% of such people purchase those products for the same reasons they buy designer handbags, listen to annoying indie pop, and pay 15 bucks for a Latte.
I don't know about your area, but a good portion of the produce at my farmer's market isn't organic and even the places that are following organic practices don't have certification. The tomato tasting better is a completely different issue from the organic question.
Yes, this! It's amazing how many people think homegrown and organic are synonymous.4 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »Wow this thread has certianly spiraled significantly since I made it a couple of days ago. It would seem after scanning over many of the posts here that much of the attachment to organic stems from ideological or emotional reasons rather than practical or health related reasons. There is also some borderline conspiracy theory, but I will ignore that and instead suggest that this is not the Alex Jones forums.
There is also of course the issue of taste, which is the reason any of us eat food to begin with. While this is similarly subjective, I don't think many would dispute that a tomato from a framers market will beat out the grocery store any day of the week. The larger issue as it pertains to cost is not so much with produce but with the multitude of ready made products from places like Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. and the army of pretentious clowns who line up for them. I would suggest that about 90% of such people purchase those products for the same reasons they buy designer handbags, listen to annoying indie pop, and pay 15 bucks for a Latte.
I don't know about your area, but a good portion of the produce at my farmer's market isn't organic and even the places that are following organic practices don't have certification. The tomato tasting better is a completely different issue from the organic question.
Yes, this! It's amazing how many people think homegrown and organic are synonymous.
Local/Homegrown do tend to taste better, but that's primarily a factor of time to market, crop to soil ratio(density per sq foot), ripeness, and batch size.3 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »Wow this thread has certianly spiraled significantly since I made it a couple of days ago. It would seem after scanning over many of the posts here that much of the attachment to organic stems from ideological or emotional reasons rather than practical or health related reasons. There is also some borderline conspiracy theory, but I will ignore that and instead suggest that this is not the Alex Jones forums.
There is also of course the issue of taste, which is the reason any of us eat food to begin with. While this is similarly subjective, I don't think many would dispute that a tomato from a framers market will beat out the grocery store any day of the week. The larger issue as it pertains to cost is not so much with produce but with the multitude of ready made products from places like Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. and the army of pretentious clowns who line up for them. I would suggest that about 90% of such people purchase those products for the same reasons they buy designer handbags, listen to annoying indie pop, and pay 15 bucks for a Latte.
I don't know about your area, but a good portion of the produce at my farmer's market isn't organic and even the places that are following organic practices don't have certification. The tomato tasting better is a completely different issue from the organic question.
Yes, this! It's amazing how many people think homegrown and organic are synonymous.
Local/Homegrown do tend to taste better, but that's primarily a factor of time to market, crop to soil ratio(density per sq foot), ripeness, and batch size.
Yeah, I'm not an expert but I always figured the reason the farmer's market food tastes so much better to me was a combination of time to market and some emotional bias on my part towards the farmer's market. I never thought of the crop to soil ratio, but that makes sense too.
3 -
Anything non-natural causes problems. Particularly when introduced directly into our bodies. As citizens we need to doubt the veracity of government bodies who are heavily lobbied by industry. The evidence of the past 50 years including the increase in obesity points to a flawed system.
People shouldn't be afraid to question dictats from people in power with conflicted interests.
While I agree with not blindly trusting information from government agencies, not everything non-natural causes problems. Sometimes they solve problems, such as medication or pacemakers.
IMO the obesity increase has more to do with changes in lifestyle than natural vs. unnatural.1 -
JustRobby1 wrote: »Wow this thread has certianly spiraled significantly since I made it a couple of days ago. It would seem after scanning over many of the posts here that much of the attachment to organic stems from ideological or emotional reasons rather than practical or health related reasons. There is also some borderline conspiracy theory, but I will ignore that and instead suggest that this is not the Alex Jones forums.
There is also of course the issue of taste, which is the reason any of us eat food to begin with. While this is similarly subjective, I don't think many would dispute that a tomato from a framers market will beat out the grocery store any day of the week. The larger issue as it pertains to cost is not so much with produce but with the multitude of ready made products from places like Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. and the army of pretentious clowns who line up for them. I would suggest that about 90% of such people purchase those products for the same reasons they buy designer handbags, listen to annoying indie pop, and pay 15 bucks for a Latte.
This sounds as if you never wanted an actual debate. You just seem to want a reason to deride and insult the decisions of others. Name calling is childish.9 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »Wow this thread has certianly spiraled significantly since I made it a couple of days ago. It would seem after scanning over many of the posts here that much of the attachment to organic stems from ideological or emotional reasons rather than practical or health related reasons. There is also some borderline conspiracy theory, but I will ignore that and instead suggest that this is not the Alex Jones forums.
There is also of course the issue of taste, which is the reason any of us eat food to begin with. While this is similarly subjective, I don't think many would dispute that a tomato from a framers market will beat out the grocery store any day of the week. The larger issue as it pertains to cost is not so much with produce but with the multitude of ready made products from places like Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. and the army of pretentious clowns who line up for them. I would suggest that about 90% of such people purchase those products for the same reasons they buy designer handbags, listen to annoying indie pop, and pay 15 bucks for a Latte.
I don't know about your area, but a good portion of the produce at my farmer's market isn't organic and even the places that are following organic practices don't have certification. The tomato tasting better is a completely different issue from the organic question.
Yes, this! It's amazing how many people think homegrown and organic are synonymous.
Local/Homegrown do tend to taste better, but that's primarily a factor of time to market, crop to soil ratio(density per sq foot), ripeness, and batch size.
Absolutely! That's why I grow my own. And I do it organically.
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »Wow this thread has certianly spiraled significantly since I made it a couple of days ago. It would seem after scanning over many of the posts here that much of the attachment to organic stems from ideological or emotional reasons rather than practical or health related reasons. There is also some borderline conspiracy theory, but I will ignore that and instead suggest that this is not the Alex Jones forums.
There is also of course the issue of taste, which is the reason any of us eat food to begin with. While this is similarly subjective, I don't think many would dispute that a tomato from a framers market will beat out the grocery store any day of the week. The larger issue as it pertains to cost is not so much with produce but with the multitude of ready made products from places like Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. and the army of pretentious clowns who line up for them. I would suggest that about 90% of such people purchase those products for the same reasons they buy designer handbags, listen to annoying indie pop, and pay 15 bucks for a Latte.
This sounds as if you never wanted an actual debate. You just seem to want a reason to deride and insult the decisions of others. Name calling is childish.
There really is no "debate" to speak of in terms of nutrition, which was the topic of the thread. It's really all boils down to the more nuanced and visceral elements, which have been articulated in depth here. Me taking an unabashed shot at hipsters was a tad in poor taste I'll grant you, but try living in Chicago for awhile and it will make more sense.2 -
JustRobby1 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »Wow this thread has certianly spiraled significantly since I made it a couple of days ago. It would seem after scanning over many of the posts here that much of the attachment to organic stems from ideological or emotional reasons rather than practical or health related reasons. There is also some borderline conspiracy theory, but I will ignore that and instead suggest that this is not the Alex Jones forums.
There is also of course the issue of taste, which is the reason any of us eat food to begin with. While this is similarly subjective, I don't think many would dispute that a tomato from a framers market will beat out the grocery store any day of the week. The larger issue as it pertains to cost is not so much with produce but with the multitude of ready made products from places like Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. and the army of pretentious clowns who line up for them. I would suggest that about 90% of such people purchase those products for the same reasons they buy designer handbags, listen to annoying indie pop, and pay 15 bucks for a Latte.
This sounds as if you never wanted an actual debate. You just seem to want a reason to deride and insult the decisions of others. Name calling is childish.
There really is no "debate" to speak of in terms of nutrition, which was the topic of the thread. It's really all boils down to the more nuanced and visceral elements, which have been articulated in depth here. Me taking an unabashed shot at hipsters was a tad in poor taste I'll grant you, but try living in Chicago for awhile and it will make more sense.
Then why post in the debate section?4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »Wow this thread has certianly spiraled significantly since I made it a couple of days ago. It would seem after scanning over many of the posts here that much of the attachment to organic stems from ideological or emotional reasons rather than practical or health related reasons. There is also some borderline conspiracy theory, but I will ignore that and instead suggest that this is not the Alex Jones forums.
There is also of course the issue of taste, which is the reason any of us eat food to begin with. While this is similarly subjective, I don't think many would dispute that a tomato from a framers market will beat out the grocery store any day of the week. The larger issue as it pertains to cost is not so much with produce but with the multitude of ready made products from places like Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. and the army of pretentious clowns who line up for them. I would suggest that about 90% of such people purchase those products for the same reasons they buy designer handbags, listen to annoying indie pop, and pay 15 bucks for a Latte.
I don't know about your area, but a good portion of the produce at my farmer's market isn't organic and even the places that are following organic practices don't have certification. The tomato tasting better is a completely different issue from the organic question.
Yes, this! It's amazing how many people think homegrown and organic are synonymous.
Local/Homegrown do tend to taste better, but that's primarily a factor of time to market, crop to soil ratio(density per sq foot), ripeness, and batch size.
Yeah, I'm not an expert but I always figured the reason the farmer's market food tastes so much better to me was a combination of time to market and some emotional bias on my part towards the farmer's market. I never thought of the crop to soil ratio, but that makes sense too.
All this, plus sometimes different/a greater selection of varietals.1 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »Wow this thread has certianly spiraled significantly since I made it a couple of days ago. It would seem after scanning over many of the posts here that much of the attachment to organic stems from ideological or emotional reasons rather than practical or health related reasons. There is also some borderline conspiracy theory, but I will ignore that and instead suggest that this is not the Alex Jones forums.
There is also of course the issue of taste, which is the reason any of us eat food to begin with. While this is similarly subjective, I don't think many would dispute that a tomato from a framers market will beat out the grocery store any day of the week. The larger issue as it pertains to cost is not so much with produce but with the multitude of ready made products from places like Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, etc. and the army of pretentious clowns who line up for them. I would suggest that about 90% of such people purchase those products for the same reasons they buy designer handbags, listen to annoying indie pop, and pay 15 bucks for a Latte.
This sounds as if you never wanted an actual debate. You just seem to want a reason to deride and insult the decisions of others. Name calling is childish.
There really is no "debate" to speak of in terms of nutrition, which was the topic of the thread. It's really all boils down to the more nuanced and visceral elements, which have been articulated in depth here. Me taking an unabashed shot at hipsters was a tad in poor taste I'll grant you, but try living in Chicago for awhile and it will make more sense.
Then why post in the debate section?
As if debating the indefensible is uncommon in this gig? It's often the rule rather than the exception I find
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I had no idea people cared this much either way about organic or non organic food. To be honest, I feel like in a way it is similar to some brand name products vs getting generic. There is a slight difference (whether good or bad, the difference is there) and for some people it's worth it to have the brand name. My mom has a farm and in order to have it certified organic there was a lot she would have had to do differently. As it is though the produce and meat was raised very naturally though. I'm a believer in organic foods but I would still rather buy from a place that I'd been too and understood how they operated but did use minimal non organic chemicals than organic foods I didn't know the origins of.
We mentioned the difference in grain fed vs grass fed but it wasn't touched on that a lot of farmers feed their milking cows things like expired snickers bars and baked goods. I won't believe for a second that that milk has the same nutritional value as a grass fed cow's milk.
Organic is just one element of a huge picture. It's one factor that I consider.... but along with and beside many other factors. Not alone.2 -
@Tacklewasher
Yes, for most crops organic produces lower yields ( but not all, for example organic hay production outstrips conventional). But crop yields alone cannot be used to determine a "winner" in farming techniques.
Organic farming aims to be sustainable whereas conventional farming aims to maximise crop yields. Sustainable agriculture is the production of food, fiber, or other plant or animal products using farming techniques that protect the environment, public health, human communities, and animal welfare. This form of agriculture aims to produce healthful food without compromising future generations' ability to do the same.
Are you suggesting that conventional farmers don't care about sustainability? That seems like a rather short-sighted business model. Particularly for those whose farms have been in the family for generations.4 -
kayla25mfp wrote: »I had no idea people cared this much either way about organic or non organic food. To be honest, I feel like in a way it is similar to some brand name products vs getting generic. There is a slight difference (whether good or bad, the difference is there) and for some people it's worth it to have the brand name. My mom has a farm and in order to have it certified organic there was a lot she would have had to do differently. As it is though the produce and meat was raised very naturally though. I'm a believer in organic foods but I would still rather buy from a place that I'd been too and understood how they operated but did use minimal non organic chemicals than organic foods I didn't know the origins of.
We mentioned the difference in grain fed vs grass fed but it wasn't touched on that a lot of farmers feed their milking cows things like expired snickers bars and baked goods. I won't believe for a second that that milk has the same nutritional value as a grass fed cow's milk.
Organic is just one element of a huge picture. It's one factor that I consider.... but along with and beside many other factors. Not alone.
I'm not sure more than a couple of posters and the OP care much at all.
I agree with your post though. I always say I garden organically but I probably couldn't pass an inspection without some changes either. I don't care. I think my methods are fine and they meet my standards for organic.1 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »
@Tacklewasher
Yes, for most crops organic produces lower yields ( but not all, for example organic hay production outstrips conventional). But crop yields alone cannot be used to determine a "winner" in farming techniques.
Organic farming aims to be sustainable whereas conventional farming aims to maximise crop yields. Sustainable agriculture is the production of food, fiber, or other plant or animal products using farming techniques that protect the environment, public health, human communities, and animal welfare. This form of agriculture aims to produce healthful food without compromising future generations' ability to do the same.
Are you suggesting that conventional farmers don't care about sustainability? That seems like a rather short-sighted business model. Particularly for those whose farms have been in the family for generations.
I not suggesting that conventional farmers do not care about sustainability, merely that the priorities of conventional farming and organic farming are different and therefore the differences in methods and techniques. Organic farming has sustainability as a higher priority than does conventional farming. This is a well known and published fact, not an opinion.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »kayla25mfp wrote: »I had no idea people cared this much either way about organic or non organic food. To be honest, I feel like in a way it is similar to some brand name products vs getting generic. There is a slight difference (whether good or bad, the difference is there) and for some people it's worth it to have the brand name. My mom has a farm and in order to have it certified organic there was a lot she would have had to do differently. As it is though the produce and meat was raised very naturally though. I'm a believer in organic foods but I would still rather buy from a place that I'd been too and understood how they operated but did use minimal non organic chemicals than organic foods I didn't know the origins of.
We mentioned the difference in grain fed vs grass fed but it wasn't touched on that a lot of farmers feed their milking cows things like expired snickers bars and baked goods. I won't believe for a second that that milk has the same nutritional value as a grass fed cow's milk.
Organic is just one element of a huge picture. It's one factor that I consider.... but along with and beside many other factors. Not alone.
I'm not sure more than a couple of posters and the OP care much at all.
I agree with your post though. I always say I garden organically but I probably couldn't pass an inspection without some changes either. I don't care. I think my methods are fine and they meet my standards for organic.
The size of the industry would suggest people do indeed care in fairly large numbers, or at least, want to make it appear as though they do.0 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »
@Tacklewasher
Yes, for most crops organic produces lower yields ( but not all, for example organic hay production outstrips conventional). But crop yields alone cannot be used to determine a "winner" in farming techniques.
Organic farming aims to be sustainable whereas conventional farming aims to maximise crop yields. Sustainable agriculture is the production of food, fiber, or other plant or animal products using farming techniques that protect the environment, public health, human communities, and animal welfare. This form of agriculture aims to produce healthful food without compromising future generations' ability to do the same.
Are you suggesting that conventional farmers don't care about sustainability? That seems like a rather short-sighted business model. Particularly for those whose farms have been in the family for generations.
I not suggesting that conventional farmers do not care about sustainability, merely that the priorities of conventional farming and organic farming are different and therefore the differences in methods and techniques.
In this case I think it's similar to the need to clarify risk upthread there is a need to clarify what one means by sustainable.
I'm the wider business context a similar point would be shareholder value cf stakeholder value. They're measured using different metrics and where a similar metric may be used a different view of how is weighed against other metrics might play in. As you highlight yourself, yield is not the only thing that's important and in many cases a lower yield is perfectly acceptable where that cost means a greater benefit elsewhere in the system.0
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