Of refeeds and diet breaks
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This thread is awesome.
Although I can't seem to find/recall what @livingleanlivingclean is having a problem with. It's a mystery wrapped in a mystery.
Haha - pick any symptom of thyroid/hormonal/cortisol/adrenal issues and I've probably got it. To me, it's like all the body systems involved have decided not to talk to each other, and I don't know which one to work on to start them being friends and working together again..
A few months ago I went to an info night by some naturopaths involved with one of the supplement companies I used to use (that many people have had lots of success and improvements with) - I literally broke down in tears as they spoke, just out of frustration, due to all the issues they brought up applying to me, and having done all of the things they recommended doing to alleviate them with no apparent changes.
I have no doubt that it's related to training, and diet... I just haven't been able to determine which factor is affecting me, or what I need to do to make my body flick the switch on that has somehow been switched off.1 -
CynthiasChoice wrote: »O my gosh, I love that! Diet break at Christmas/New Year. Awesome!! Thanks for pointing that out to me.
My next diet break falls mid to end of November, then three weeks at deficit before Christmas. I could be at goal by then, but I'm not counting on it. I'll shift refeed to cover xmas day, needless to say it will not be by the book lower fat, and will possibly be an overfeed once alcohol is accounted for!3 -
CynthiasChoice wrote: »I just thought I'd come back with an update. I just completed my 14 day diet break and feel great. Thanks again Nony for your help getting started, and for prodding me repeatedly to check my data and do the math to find my TDEE. Having that number helped me relax through the process.
It's encouraging to know that maintenance is not as difficult as I imagined it would be. If anything, it was difficult to eat enough to reach my calorie and carb goal. I'm sure as I lose fat, my TDEE will be lower, and I won't have so many calories to eat, but still the diet break experience helped boost my confidence. I needed that, as someone who has never purposefully tracked calories to maintain a weight loss. (ashamed to say, but true)
I'm happy that my weight dipped back down to my starting weight of two weeks ago. After 5 days I was up 1.4 pounds, but on Day 14 of the Diet Break, I weigh exactly what I weighed on Day One. Yay! I feel like the universe rewarded me.
Now for the real test. As I return to a daily deficit of 400 calories, we'll see if the diet break did anything to restore my metabolism.
I'm going to consider your advice Nony, to do another break after 6 weeks instead of 12.
I've also done 2 weeks eating at maintenance - I don't think I should be trying to lose more weight though, so not going to stop; I've actually decided to go the other way and have bumped up carbs a bit more.
My weight has also stayed consistent - I think there may be a little recomp going on as some parts of me seem to be a bit leaner, although this could just be the increase in carbs pushing the muscles out. We started Ph3 at the same time, and I've had plenty of energy to do that.
I planned my days to include one high day (lower fat and increased carbs) to balance out two low(er) days. Agreeing on the difficulty of getting so many carbs in with lower fat - next week I think I'm going to have to bust out the cereal and sandwiches! (or more crumpets)
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livingleanlivingclean wrote: »CynthiasChoice wrote: »I just thought I'd come back with an update. I just completed my 14 day diet break and feel great. Thanks again Nony for your help getting started, and for prodding me repeatedly to check my data and do the math to find my TDEE. Having that number helped me relax through the process.
It's encouraging to know that maintenance is not as difficult as I imagined it would be. If anything, it was difficult to eat enough to reach my calorie and carb goal. I'm sure as I lose fat, my TDEE will be lower, and I won't have so many calories to eat, but still the diet break experience helped boost my confidence. I needed that, as someone who has never purposefully tracked calories to maintain a weight loss. (ashamed to say, but true)
I'm happy that my weight dipped back down to my starting weight of two weeks ago. After 5 days I was up 1.4 pounds, but on Day 14 of the Diet Break, I weigh exactly what I weighed on Day One. Yay! I feel like the universe rewarded me.
Now for the real test. As I return to a daily deficit of 400 calories, we'll see if the diet break did anything to restore my metabolism.
I'm going to consider your advice Nony, to do another break after 6 weeks instead of 12.
I've also done 2 weeks eating at maintenance - I don't think I should be trying to lose more weight though, so not going to stop; I've actually decided to go the other way and have bumped up carbs a bit more.
My weight has also stayed consistent - I think there may be a little recomp going on as some parts of me seem to be a bit leaner, although this could just be the increase in carbs pushing the muscles out. We started Ph3 at the same time, and I've had plenty of energy to do that.
I planned my days to include one high day (lower fat and increased carbs) to balance out two low(er) days. Agreeing on the difficulty of getting so many carbs in with lower fat - next week I think I'm going to have to bust out the cereal and sandwiches! (or more crumpets)
Mmmm, crumpets...I miss crumpets
(wheat is one of my eczema triggers).
I think more carbs and staying at maintenance is the way to go for you at this point, at least until you get some answers. From my meagre understanding, it can take a really long time for things to come back online once they get out of whack (one of Lyle's podcasts mentioned a woman who took 10 months to get her period back after losing it with comp prep). I think I remember which one, will check and post the link if I find it.1 -
Can't find it sorry. I really need to start taking notes when I listen to these so I know where to find stuff again! It may even be in the refeeds one. I don't think he gave any insights into correcting it though, other than time. From memory it was in the context of upping cals post comp, one woman went straight to maintenance cals and was fine, the other reverse dieted, lost her cycle, and took months and months for it to come back. That's probably horribly depressing for you to hear sorry 1
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »Can't find it sorry. I really need to start taking notes when I listen to these so I know where to find stuff again! It may even be in the refeeds one. I don't think he gave any insights into correcting it though, other than time. From memory it was in the context of upping cals post comp, one woman went straight to maintenance cals and was fine, the other reverse dieted, lost her cycle, and took months and months for it to come back. That's probably horribly depressing for you to hear sorry
He did mention that scenario in the reefed one - after my last comp (end of 2014) I reversed by going straight up to maintenance then increasing further from there. Still Nada.
It's funny, I don't find it depressing - I've just come to the conclusion that it's something more complex than most cases, and whatever I've done has compounded and just royally stuffed me up. I know I've tried most of the normal fixes, and given them a pretty good go. I'm hoping this new Dr can pinpoint something!
It has taken me a while, but I have dieted down slowly over the past year to a physique I'm happy to maintain. I don't know if that was a good thing physically or not, but I figured I'd rather be happy with myself and have issues, than be unhappy with myself and still have issues. I did it slow so I didn't have to cut calories ridiculously low, or do piles of cardio.2 -
So after 3 days of logging (with 2 being refeeds), I am actually down a lb today (go figure, ha). And after 400g of carbs, I fricken killed my workout last night.14
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Nice. This is week one for me seeing if the 5 deficit/2 refeed way will work for me. 2pm day one, so far so good!0
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Argh. Up three pounds this morning (sodium? beer from yesterday?). This is normal, right?0
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »CynthiasChoice wrote: »I just thought I'd come back with an update. I just completed my 14 day diet break and feel great. Thanks again Nony for your help getting started, and for prodding me repeatedly to check my data and do the math to find my TDEE. Having that number helped me relax through the process.
It's encouraging to know that maintenance is not as difficult as I imagined it would be. If anything, it was difficult to eat enough to reach my calorie and carb goal. I'm sure as I lose fat, my TDEE will be lower, and I won't have so many calories to eat, but still the diet break experience helped boost my confidence. I needed that, as someone who has never purposefully tracked calories to maintain a weight loss. (ashamed to say, but true)
I'm happy that my weight dipped back down to my starting weight of two weeks ago. After 5 days I was up 1.4 pounds, but on Day 14 of the Diet Break, I weigh exactly what I weighed on Day One. Yay! I feel like the universe rewarded me.
Now for the real test. As I return to a daily deficit of 400 calories, we'll see if the diet break did anything to restore my metabolism.
I'm going to consider your advice Nony, to do another break after 6 weeks instead of 12.
I've also done 2 weeks eating at maintenance - I don't think I should be trying to lose more weight though, so not going to stop; I've actually decided to go the other way and have bumped up carbs a bit more.
My weight has also stayed consistent - I think there may be a little recomp going on as some parts of me seem to be a bit leaner, although this could just be the increase in carbs pushing the muscles out. We started Ph3 at the same time, and I've had plenty of energy to do that.
I planned my days to include one high day (lower fat and increased carbs) to balance out two low(er) days. Agreeing on the difficulty of getting so many carbs in with lower fat - next week I think I'm going to have to bust out the cereal and sandwiches! (or more crumpets)
Mmmm, crumpets...I miss crumpets (wheat is one of my eczema triggers).
I think more carbs and staying at maintenance is the way to go for you at this point, at least until you get some answers. From my meagre understanding, it can take a really long time for things to come back online once they get out of whack (one of Lyle's podcasts mentioned a woman who took 10 months to get her period back after losing it with comp prep). I think I remember which one, will check and post the link if I find it.
they do gluten free crumpets in some supermarkets. i don't know if they have the proper crumpet-y texture though?0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »livingleanlivingclean wrote: »CynthiasChoice wrote: »I just thought I'd come back with an update. I just completed my 14 day diet break and feel great. Thanks again Nony for your help getting started, and for prodding me repeatedly to check my data and do the math to find my TDEE. Having that number helped me relax through the process.
It's encouraging to know that maintenance is not as difficult as I imagined it would be. If anything, it was difficult to eat enough to reach my calorie and carb goal. I'm sure as I lose fat, my TDEE will be lower, and I won't have so many calories to eat, but still the diet break experience helped boost my confidence. I needed that, as someone who has never purposefully tracked calories to maintain a weight loss. (ashamed to say, but true)
I'm happy that my weight dipped back down to my starting weight of two weeks ago. After 5 days I was up 1.4 pounds, but on Day 14 of the Diet Break, I weigh exactly what I weighed on Day One. Yay! I feel like the universe rewarded me.
Now for the real test. As I return to a daily deficit of 400 calories, we'll see if the diet break did anything to restore my metabolism.
I'm going to consider your advice Nony, to do another break after 6 weeks instead of 12.
I've also done 2 weeks eating at maintenance - I don't think I should be trying to lose more weight though, so not going to stop; I've actually decided to go the other way and have bumped up carbs a bit more.
My weight has also stayed consistent - I think there may be a little recomp going on as some parts of me seem to be a bit leaner, although this could just be the increase in carbs pushing the muscles out. We started Ph3 at the same time, and I've had plenty of energy to do that.
I planned my days to include one high day (lower fat and increased carbs) to balance out two low(er) days. Agreeing on the difficulty of getting so many carbs in with lower fat - next week I think I'm going to have to bust out the cereal and sandwiches! (or more crumpets)
Mmmm, crumpets...I miss crumpets (wheat is one of my eczema triggers).
I think more carbs and staying at maintenance is the way to go for you at this point, at least until you get some answers. From my meagre understanding, it can take a really long time for things to come back online once they get out of whack (one of Lyle's podcasts mentioned a woman who took 10 months to get her period back after losing it with comp prep). I think I remember which one, will check and post the link if I find it.
they do gluten free crumpets in some supermarkets. i don't know if they have the proper crumpet-y texture though?
I've seen some... They look like hockey pucks. 0 -
collectingblues wrote: »Argh. Up three pounds this morning (sodium? beer from yesterday?). This is normal, right?
Totally, 3lbs overnight is rarely anything but natural fluctuation. Heck I've been trending 2lbs up for well over a week!0 -
collectingblues wrote: »Argh. Up three pounds this morning (sodium? beer from yesterday?). This is normal, right?
Totally normal. In the immortal words of Douglas Adams, DON'T PANIC!!TavistockToad wrote: »they do gluten free crumpets in some supermarkets. i don't know if they have the proper crumpet-y texture though?
I tend to assume any gluten-free versions of bready things are going to suck.3 -
collectingblues wrote: »Argh. Up three pounds this morning (sodium? beer from yesterday?). This is normal, right?
Completely normal. Some people are able to flush out water retention after a day, while others may take longer. I'm in the latter group where it takes me ~3-4 days to completely deplete whatever I gained from weekend refeeds. After a while you get used to seeing such large fluctuations. To date, my largest weekend fluctuation was about 9 lbs. It was also my birthday weekend so restraint was completely gone lol. A couple weeks later and I was back to normal and trending back down to pre-birthday levels of leanness. Look at everything in the long term, not the immediate. It helps overcome sudden freakouts or anxiety if you take a broader perspective.4 -
Yeah, I'm back down to where I was mid last week before PMS bloat after one day back at deficit. My patented Chuck T sneaker test tells me I'm still retaining fluid, but whether it's still hormonal or refeed is anyone's guess, and really not important.4
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »Can't find it sorry. I really need to start taking notes when I listen to these so I know where to find stuff again! It may even be in the refeeds one. I don't think he gave any insights into correcting it though, other than time. From memory it was in the context of upping cals post comp, one woman went straight to maintenance cals and was fine, the other reverse dieted, lost her cycle, and took months and months for it to come back. That's probably horribly depressing for you to hear sorry
I believe he said it was because of unfavorable "metabolic memory".
It's from the podcast Avoiding Fat Regain (9 May).
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My 3 days refeed went well.
Lost on Day 1 and Day 2. I'm pretty sure I'm underestimating my TDEE so I'll need to adjust.
Day 3 was the first day of TOM (sorry, TMI) and I gained even though diet was on point. May also be due to sodium (ate out).
I'm going to do a 11/3 as it's difficult doing a lower deficit than 1800.
Question:
Can anyone tell me whether it matters where fat vs saturated fat numbers are concerned?
I've always tried meeting RDI% for both but wondered whether I should keep saturated fat lower.0 -
My 3 days refeed went well.
Lost on Day 1 and Day 2. I'm pretty sure I'm underestimating my TDEE so I'll need to adjust.
Day 3 was the first day of TOM (sorry, TMI) and I gained even though diet was on point. May also be due to sodium (ate out).
I'm going to do a 11/3 as it's difficult doing a lower deficit than 1800.
Question:
Can anyone tell me whether it matters where fat vs saturated fat numbers are concerned?
I've always tried meeting RDI% for both but wondered whether I should keep saturated fat lower.
As far as I know, the recommendations for saturated fat are limits, not goals.1 -
My sat fat is always way over, because most of my protein intake comes from dairy. I should really start eating tempeh again...2
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My 3 days refeed went well.
Lost on Day 1 and Day 2. I'm pretty sure I'm underestimating my TDEE so I'll need to adjust.
Day 3 was the first day of TOM (sorry, TMI) and I gained even though diet was on point. May also be due to sodium (ate out).
I'm going to do a 11/3 as it's difficult doing a lower deficit than 1800.
Question:
Can anyone tell me whether it matters where fat vs saturated fat numbers are concerned?
I've always tried meeting RDI% for both but wondered whether I should keep saturated fat lower.
"Fat" would be the sum of all sources of dietary fat (saturated, mono, and poly unsaturated) in the meal. From naturally occurring sources, they're not going to be detrimental in any meaningful way, especially if you're on a moderated (intentionally tracked) diet with adequate activity to cycle substrates.
Depending on your goal/concern, you could look at the composition of fatty acids in a few different ways:
Randle Cycle - Glucose reuptake in response to substrate hierarchy:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/297/3/E578.full
Insulin sensitivity relative to dietary fatty acid composition:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199301283280404#t=article
Saturated fat vs trans fat comparison for all cause mortality:
http://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h3978/
Basically, if you're not following a hyper-palatable, obesogenic type of diet (AKA standard Western diet), you're okay. The only type of fatty acid that should really be a concern is getting enough omega-3 + EPA/DHA, since that's practically the essential fatty acid that everyone should have optimally.
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