Of refeeds and diet breaks
Replies
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »Refeeding I find to be a fascinating topic that I have only recently discovered but which has resonated with a personal experience that I had not terribly long ago. I have only been on maintenance a very short time, but like 5-6 weeks ago when I was still cutting like a madman I remember one Sunday after my long run I just snapped. I had been going pretty hardcore for a solid month and I finally just gave up on tracking that day and went to town on food. I would guess I was probably in the ballpark of at least 5-6000 calories that day (I wish I would of tracked it now).
Anyway, as you might expect I felt guilty as hell the next day, so I went right back to grindstone. Work, run, eat, sleep, repeat. The following Sunday when I went to weight I figured it was going to be a "treading water" week since I had screwed up so hardcore that one day. Nope. I dropped 2 and a half pounds which was more than normal even on balls to the wall weeks. At the time I blew it off as an aberration, as I have had plenty of weird things happen over the course of my tenure in this game, but after hearing about this concept it does now make me pause for thought.
Yep, this is that one trick that will make weight loss easier
I never really made any sort of connection to refeeding, or even heard of it, until like a week ago. But the more I read and compare notes to my own experience, the more the shoe seems to fit. My "runger" got worse and more acute the leaner I got, and the one time I gave into it I actually lost more weight. Purely anecdotal, but thought provoking nonetheless. Probably worth a shot to others who are relatively lean as they near the finish line and looking for a boost in morale.2 -
JustRobby1 wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »Refeeding I find to be a fascinating topic that I have only recently discovered but which has resonated with a personal experience that I had not terribly long ago. I have only been on maintenance a very short time, but like 5-6 weeks ago when I was still cutting like a madman I remember one Sunday after my long run I just snapped. I had been going pretty hardcore for a solid month and I finally just gave up on tracking that day and went to town on food. I would guess I was probably in the ballpark of at least 5-6000 calories that day (I wish I would of tracked it now).
Anyway, as you might expect I felt guilty as hell the next day, so I went right back to grindstone. Work, run, eat, sleep, repeat. The following Sunday when I went to weight I figured it was going to be a "treading water" week since I had screwed up so hardcore that one day. Nope. I dropped 2 and a half pounds which was more than normal even on balls to the wall weeks. At the time I blew it off as an aberration, as I have had plenty of weird things happen over the course of my tenure in this game, but after hearing about this concept it does now make me pause for thought.
Yep, this is that one trick that will make weight loss easier
I never really made any sort of connection to refeeding, or at even heard of it, until like a week ago. But the more I read and compare notes to my own experience, the more the shoe seems to fit. My "runger" got worse and more acute the leaner I got, and the one time I gave into it I actually lost more weight. Purely anecdotal, but thought provoking nonetheless. Probably worth a shot to others who are relatively lean as they near the finish line and looking for a boost in morale.
Yeah, I think there are quite a few of us filing all this under 'things I wish I had known!', which really was my primary reason for starting this thread. I think I did a fair bit of this by blind luck when I was losing my weight a couple of years ago, just by having things like friends or family visiting, or being away from home myself, and choosing to eat around maintenance at those times (wasn't tracking, but was being mindful), then getting back to it.
If I had it all to do again (which I sincerely hope I never do, more than the occasional couple of kg I have a tendency to put on every now and then), I would absolutely plan in diet breaks and refeeds.6 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »Refeeding I find to be a fascinating topic that I have only recently discovered but which has resonated with a personal experience that I had not terribly long ago. I have only been on maintenance a very short time, but like 5-6 weeks ago when I was still cutting like a madman I remember one Sunday after my long run I just snapped. I had been going pretty hardcore for a solid month and I finally just gave up on tracking that day and went to town on food. I would guess I was probably in the ballpark of at least 5-6000 calories that day (I wish I would of tracked it now).
Anyway, as you might expect I felt guilty as hell the next day, so I went right back to grindstone. Work, run, eat, sleep, repeat. The following Sunday when I went to weight I figured it was going to be a "treading water" week since I had screwed up so hardcore that one day. Nope. I dropped 2 and a half pounds which was more than normal even on balls to the wall weeks. At the time I blew it off as an aberration, as I have had plenty of weird things happen over the course of my tenure in this game, but after hearing about this concept it does now make me pause for thought.
Yep, this is that one trick that will make weight loss easier
Counter-intuitive as it may seem!2 -
Going to investigate further- Thanks for the info Nony_Mouse!1
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Just adding more N=1 fuel to this, but coming back into my normal planned deficit streak after the weekend, apparently my training schedule was packed beyond normal, and attributed to complete underfeeding and overtraining M-W as evidenced by feeling like hot trash Thursday morning; i.e. strength, recovery, and mood were reduced, weight (while not important at the moment) actually bumped up by 1.5 lbs. Thursday I decided to do a structured refeed by overshooting maintenance to compensate for training, and mental reprieve by just not logging in more food after the day was closed lol. Woke up today 2lbs lighter (and feeling leaner), well-rested, and a positive outlook ready to deadlift later tonight.
The refeed works for that exact reason. When you seemingly run yourself into the ground, whether it's self-induced or because life just works out that way, you achieve equilibrium (from both psychological and physiological perspectives) and voila.. ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ6 -
Well, my story in all its gory detail is that I had been overtraining (relative to capabilities given my age - 55- and limitations due to my medical conditions) and underfueling then binging for the better part of a year.
I've played with macro mixes and have had reprieves from the binge behavior only to have it come back to bite me.
I'd experience appetite suppression from running which is what led to the underfueling, but then lifting would make me ravenous - cue binge. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Various behavior modification techniques combined with macro balancing did help mitigate the binging to the point that they grew less frequent and lower in calories, but I packed on about 8 pounds, and I'm not happy about it.
I decided to scale back a bit on running (was training for 10K) to only run a max of 2 miles each outing. Walking (I walk 4 minute miles) is unlimited and I do a lot of walking. Lifting 3 times a week with moderate weights.
I've been focusing on behavior and adherence, so I haven't weighed yet. One of my binge triggers was having the scale drop for some odd reason. I want to avoid that for just now.
Anyway, putting all this out there because I've been following all of this with interest. My last maintenance eating day was 2 weeks ago, so I'm going to do 2 days refeed this weekend. I'm stocked up with breakfast cereal and chickpea pasta and butternut squash.4 -
Refeed is the bomb. This is seriously so much easier than the banging my head against a wall that I was doing before diet break. I'm only 300g off what was my previous goal weight. Of course I dropped that by 2kg, but if I carry on at this rate, factoring in another diet break, I'll be there in 8 weeks. Christmas present!! Of course, I'm not counting on it, but gosh that would be nice
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »Refeed is the bomb. This is seriously so much easier than the banging my head against a wall that I was doing before diet break. I'm only 300g off what was my previous goal weight. Of course I dropped that by 2kg, but if I carry on at this rate, factoring in another diet break, I'll be there in 8 weeks. Christmas present!! Of course, I'm not counting on it, but gosh that would be nice
Living testimony that it works!! Love the "banging my head against a wall".2 -
Well my hope with this whole thing is that it can put me into a steady cycle of loss where I can finally get to goal because I've been spinning my wheels for a year.
It all started when I was 5 pounds from goal and did RFL in a desperate attempt to be done with dieting and spiraled out of control from there.
In reflecting back, I did RFL because I was having trouble losing. I should have done a diet break THEN. I did absolutely the wrong thing and have been doing nothing but the wrong thing ever since.
At this point, I'd just be happy to no longer binge and don't care how long it takes me to get to goal.10 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Well, my story in all its gory detail is that I had been overtraining (relative to capabilities given my age - 55- and limitations due to my medical conditions) and underfueling then binging for the better part of a year.
I've played with macro mixes and have had reprieves from the binge behavior only to have it come back to bite me.
I'd experience appetite suppression from running which is what led to the underfueling, but then lifting would make me ravenous - cue binge. Lather, rinse, repeat.
Various behavior modification techniques combined with macro balancing did help mitigate the binging to the point that they grew less frequent and lower in calories, but I packed on about 8 pounds, and I'm not happy about it.
I decided to scale back a bit on running (was training for 10K) to only run a max of 2 miles each outing. Walking (I walk 4 minute miles) is unlimited and I do a lot of walking. Lifting 3 times a week with moderate weights.
I've been focusing on behavior and adherence, so I haven't weighed yet. One of my binge triggers was having the scale drop for some odd reason. I want to avoid that for just now.
Anyway, putting all this out there because I've been following all of this with interest. My last maintenance eating day was 2 weeks ago, so I'm going to do 2 days refeed this weekend. I'm stocked up with breakfast cereal and chickpea pasta and butternut squash.
This was totally me in the past. Haven't done that this time. ( I lost but stopped short of ideal weight. Didn't regain but didn't go the rest of the way for a couple of years) For whatever reason, using IF and a macro mix and meal timing that works for me, I haven't felt the desire to binge when the scale drops this time. I'm within 10 or 12 lbs of ideal weight now after dropping more than 25 lbs. The scale losses are coming slower but the body composition continues to change.
An anecdote. My wife, who is not given to lots of compliments, came home one day last week as I was getting some stuff done in the yard. She got out of the car kinda of chuckling. I asked her what was so funny. She said when she pulled in the driveway, she wondered who the guy was working in the yard. She didn't realize it was me until I turned around. This stuff works!10 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Well my hope with this whole thing is that it can put me into a steady cycle of loss where I can finally get to goal because I've been spinning my wheels for a year.
It all started when I was 5 pounds from goal and did RFL in a desperate attempt to be done with dieting and spiraled out of control from there.
In reflecting back, I did RFL because I was having trouble losing. I should have done a diet break THEN. I did absolutely the wrong thing and have been doing nothing but the wrong thing ever since.
At this point, I'd just be happy to no longer binge and don't care how long it takes me to get to goal.
Srsly, this has helped me so much. I really hope it does the same for you 1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Well my hope with this whole thing is that it can put me into a steady cycle of loss where I can finally get to goal because I've been spinning my wheels for a year.
It all started when I was 5 pounds from goal and did RFL in a desperate attempt to be done with dieting and spiraled out of control from there.
In reflecting back, I did RFL because I was having trouble losing. I should have done a diet break THEN. I did absolutely the wrong thing and have been doing nothing but the wrong thing ever since.
At this point, I'd just be happy to no longer binge and don't care how long it takes me to get to goal.
I'd say you're in a better spot, mentally, now that you've recognized what the cycle looks like. My disorder presented almost identically. RFL leading to binge which was perhaps the wrong way to approach it. Eventually, even while following protocol, I wasn't adherent and almost intuitively undulated days of maintenance and RFL deficit levels. But it's the cue to pay attention to what your body is telling you at the time that determines whether a full on binge is coming or if you can mitigate it and include a structured refeed. At least for me, that's my reasoning behind it.
It takes a lot of "knowing yourself" as well as forgiving yourself. Weight is temporary in the nihilistic sense, and whether it's "optimal" or near optimal isn't as important as how you actually feel. I mentioned in an earlier page that there are times when a "diet break" should literally be a complete break for at least a year or two just to focus on yourself. I took a break for the better part of 5 years and while my weight was a bit higher (by 10 lbs) at that time, I was mentally and emotionally adjusted enough to be okay with it and maintain it. It's just a personal suggestion, but one that overrides the nature of being fixated on numbers and food.8 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Well my hope with this whole thing is that it can put me into a steady cycle of loss where I can finally get to goal because I've been spinning my wheels for a year.
It all started when I was 5 pounds from goal and did RFL in a desperate attempt to be done with dieting and spiraled out of control from there.
In reflecting back, I did RFL because I was having trouble losing. I should have done a diet break THEN. I did absolutely the wrong thing and have been doing nothing but the wrong thing ever since.
At this point, I'd just be happy to no longer binge and don't care how long it takes me to get to goal.
I hope this doesn't sound weird/wrong -- but I've always respected you on these forums, and in a way, it's a relief to see what someone I respect is struggling with the same issues I've had.6 -
collectingblues wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Well my hope with this whole thing is that it can put me into a steady cycle of loss where I can finally get to goal because I've been spinning my wheels for a year.
It all started when I was 5 pounds from goal and did RFL in a desperate attempt to be done with dieting and spiraled out of control from there.
In reflecting back, I did RFL because I was having trouble losing. I should have done a diet break THEN. I did absolutely the wrong thing and have been doing nothing but the wrong thing ever since.
At this point, I'd just be happy to no longer binge and don't care how long it takes me to get to goal.
I hope this doesn't sound weird/wrong -- but I've always respected you on these forums, and in a way, it's a relief to see what someone I respect is struggling with the same issues I've had.
was thinking the same thing3 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Refeed is the bomb. This is seriously so much easier than the banging my head against a wall that I was doing before diet break. I'm only 300g off what was my previous goal weight. Of course I dropped that by 2kg, but if I carry on at this rate, factoring in another diet break, I'll be there in 8 weeks. Christmas present!! Of course, I'm not counting on it, but gosh that would be nice
Living testimony that it works!! Love the "banging my head against a wall".
Poster child!!4 -
It really intrigues me that I can be so hungry on Day Two of refeeds. I ate over 2500 cals yesterday FFS! Had breakfast an hour ago (470 cals worth), and my belly is already going 'so, about morning tea...'.10
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And now my sciencey brain is pondering if this is an evolutionary thing, as in body is saying 'hey, there's food available. Quick! Eat it!'.7
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Well, my first day of refeed has been interesting. I feel strange now, almost as if I had binged because I am so full and because I am experiencing TEF to the point of having hot flushes which is something I usually only felt when I binged.
I normally eat a fairly carb heavy diet, but this was well... somewhere between normal quantities and binge quantities, so it was novel.
It feels good to have done something like this in a controlled fashion. I found myself at the end of the day needing fat and calories and was raiding the kids' M & M stash, so there's that.
I know one thing. I'm primed for a run tomorrow morning. Too bad the weather is supposed to be crap so it's going to have to be on the treadmill. I think I'll start listening to "Good Omens" again to make it interesting.9 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Well, my first day of refeed has been interesting. I feel strange now, almost as if I had binged because I am so full and because I am experiencing TEF to the point of having hot flushes which is something I usually only felt when I binged.
I normally eat a fairly carb heavy diet, but this was well... somewhere between normal quantities and binge quantities, so it was novel.
It feels good to have done something like this in a controlled fashion. I found myself at the end of the day needing fat and calories and was raiding the kids' M & M stash, so there's that.
I know one thing. I'm primed for a run tomorrow morning. Too bad the weather is supposed to be crap so it's going to have to be on the treadmill. I think I'll start listening to "Good Omens" again to make it interesting.
Yeah, I get the TEF heat thing too, especially with dinner!
I'm about to put all the carbs to good use on an afternoon hike, my first real one since injuring my knee back in June. Yay!!!! If you don't hear from me, I fell off a mountain. Please keep the thread going in my memory...
(jokes, I've done this track before, it's wicked steep getting up to the ridge line, but not perilous)13 -
Hope you're having fun on your hike Nony!
I just wanted to report back that the scale dropped 2 full pounds after my 5th day back on calorie deficit. That's in addition to the 1/2 pound I dropped after day one. And if you remember, I ended my diet break at my lowest weight this year. I didn't do a cleanse (lol) or take a diuretic or add extra activity, just returned to my previous diet habits as usual. I haven't seen the scale move this much since January! I'm a believer thus far!!
I know it's not all fat because my deficit is only 400 - 500 calories per day, but there is a definite difference in how my clothes fit. I'm also prepared to not see more weight fall off for over a week, but despite this, I'm very encouraged, and so happy I did the diet break 9 -
My training partner is home from deployment, so starting tomorrow we are doing PHAT. This should be interesting. Hopefully, the volume isnt too crazy.
Oh and i destroyed calories today... had a Halloween party and i ate all the calories!!! So i am going to taper the first few days and not take a mental break on Wednesday.6 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »This thread is awesome.
Although I can't seem to find/recall what @livingleanlivingclean is having a problem with. It's a mystery wrapped in a mystery.
Haha - pick any symptom of thyroid/hormonal/cortisol/adrenal issues and I've probably got it. To me, it's like all the body systems involved have decided not to talk to each other, and I don't know which one to work on to start them being friends and working together again..
A few months ago I went to an info night by some naturopaths involved with one of the supplement companies I used to use (that many people have had lots of success and improvements with) - I literally broke down in tears as they spoke, just out of frustration, due to all the issues they brought up applying to me, and having done all of the things they recommended doing to alleviate them with no apparent changes.
I have no doubt that it's related to training, and diet... I just haven't been able to determine which factor is affecting me, or what I need to do to make my body flick the switch on that has somehow been switched off.
I'm about 100 posts behind, but I just have to point out you need to forget anything any naturopath has told you about your health. Naturopathy is an utterly BS pseudoscience.5 -
My hike was AWESOME!!!! And I did it way quicker than earlier in the year when I had a friend with me. This is why I hike alone, or with one friend who it's usually me slowing us down. The sad side to that is that I didn't burn anywhere near the calories I'd anticipated. I also didn't eat all my hike food though, cos I hadn't gotten to the nut bar yet when I suddenly emerged from the bush at the lookout and went 'huh? what??'. I need to do a bit of wandering about to balance the books cal-wise, but that's fine, I always do so ma muscles don't cease up.
Now, to a hot epsom salt bath. My calves are already yelling at me, and my quads won't be far behind. If you want an idea of steepness, took me an hour to climb 2 km. Luckily tree roots make excellent steps, so it's just like ascending a really steep staircase.
Yay hiking!!!! (I may have a wee endorphin buzz going...)17 -
My training partner is home from deployment, so starting tomorrow we are doing PHAT. This should be interesting. Hopefully, the volume isnt too crazy.
Oh and i destroyed calories today... had a Halloween party and i ate all the calories!!! So i am going to taper the first few days and not take a mental break on Wednesday.
I had to Google PHAT. First results I got were for some completely woo diet. I thought 'well that can't be right!'.
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »My training partner is home from deployment, so starting tomorrow we are doing PHAT. This should be interesting. Hopefully, the volume isnt too crazy.
Oh and i destroyed calories today... had a Halloween party and i ate all the calories!!! So i am going to taper the first few days and not take a mental break on Wednesday.
I had to Google PHAT. First results I got were for some completely woo diet. I thought 'well that can't be right!'.
Here you go.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1
http://www.simplyshredded.com/mega-feature-layne-norton-training-series-full-powerhypertrophy-routine-updated-2011.html3 -
My training partner is home from deployment, so starting tomorrow we are doing PHAT. This should be interesting. Hopefully, the volume isnt too crazy.
Oh and i destroyed calories today... had a Halloween party and i ate all the calories!!! So i am going to taper the first few days and not take a mental break on Wednesday.
We're heading in to the last week of Ph3 phase one - with the exception of one day a week, we haven't found it completely mad in terms of volume. Some powerlifting focused friends told us we were stupid doing it, but we've since found out they started it but went all out on every exercise which isn't how the program is set up!
We've done PHAT a couple of years ago, but I can't remember how it compares...0 -
I haven't seen entirely successful with my 5 days deficit 2 days refeed effort this week but it's because my food planning went a bit pear shaped and I got hungrier than necessary. I did eat all the things on Friday though and a reasonable amount yesterday so I may well have accidentally given myself the refeed effects. Not that the scale shows it but the scale never behaves for me. And I am coming in with a hair off my full wanted deficit so that's cool.
Will give it another go next week. It may be it just doesn't work for me adherence wise but will try with a proper macro split that works for me and not the too low in protein white knuckling I did this week.4 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »My training partner is home from deployment, so starting tomorrow we are doing PHAT. This should be interesting. Hopefully, the volume isnt too crazy.
Oh and i destroyed calories today... had a Halloween party and i ate all the calories!!! So i am going to taper the first few days and not take a mental break on Wednesday.
I had to Google PHAT. First results I got were for some completely woo diet. I thought 'well that can't be right!'.
Here you go.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1
http://www.simplyshredded.com/mega-feature-layne-norton-training-series-full-powerhypertrophy-routine-updated-2011.html
Yeah, adding 'training' to my search got me there 2 -
So I managed to pack on a mighty 900g with weekend refeed. I'm sure some of it is water weight from hauling myself up that track yesterday, not sore, but my legs feel like lead weights! Best news is that my bung knee is not even remotely sore - huzzah!! Today will be an active rest day with lots of yoga to stretch out my leggies, and a gentle walk to get enough cals to not feel like I'm starving back at deficit.
Have my cals (going by Fitbit) dialled in so tight that I came in with +3 for the two days. Yes, I do put way too much thought into that!
Here's a pretty picture from the lookout on my hike:
And heading along the ridge line:
18 -
Oh puuurrrty.2
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