Of refeeds and diet breaks
Replies
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Honestly, the more research that emerges about SFA would suggest it is a non issue and will not worsen metabolic markers. It won't necessarily improve them either.5
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I shall carry on eating my halloumi with glee then!! Though actually, I do want to see if tempeh makes any noticeable difference to pesky womanly hormonal things (phytoestrogens), and I also want to test lower sodium prior to ovulation to see if it helps the bloat (apparently we're more sensitive to sodium, and therefore sodium-related fluid retention at that time).2
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@Nony_Mouse I just wanted to thank you for starting this thread. I read every post as they pop up and look forward to hearing yours and others updates
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Thanks guys for the responses.
I asked because I'm usually very low in sat fats most days (around 15-20g or so) and wondered whether it caused hormonal issues.
I've had and continue to have hair loss issues (because of hereditary reasons and made worse when I stopped BC). I've tried the supplements (biotin, kelp, Omega 3 and so on) but they didn't really help. TBH though, I never stuck to them for long anyway.
@anubis609, thanks for the links. I'll have a read through the articles.
@psuLemon, lol, I had to google to see what SFA meant and found the first result being Sweet Furry Animals!!! I finally scrolled down the results to saturated fatty acids.
ETA: I read through my last post and clearly did not say what I wanted to say! My sat fat is usually low and fat meets RDI%.1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »I shall carry on eating my halloumi with glee then!! Though actually, I do want to see if tempeh makes any noticeable difference to pesky womanly hormonal things (phytoestrogens), and I also want to test lower sodium prior to ovulation to see if it helps the bloat (apparently we're more sensitive to sodium, and therefore sodium-related fluid retention at that time).
Interestingly enough about 4 or 5 years ago, a women conducted an experiment over 6 months or more when it came to her TOM. During those periods of time, she are at maintenance levels. Ironically, she lost weight every month.
I assumed it did this due to less hormonal stresses caused by a deficit and the increased metabolic need to repair the body, similar to time of injury. So whilw more therotical, it was a very interesting obversation.3 -
Thanks guys for the responses.
I asked because I'm usually very low in sat fats most days (around 15-20g or so) and wondered whether it caused hormonal issues.
I've had and continue to have hair loss issues (because of hereditary reasons and made worse when I stopped BC). I've tried the supplements (biotin, kelp, Omega 3 and so on) but they didn't really help. TBH though, I never stuck to them for long anyway.
@anubis609, thanks for the links. I'll have a read through the articles.
@psuLemon, lol, I had to google to see what SFA meant and found the first result being Sweet Furry Animals!!! I finally scrolled down the results to saturated fatty acids.
ETA: I read through my last post and clearly did not say what I wanted to say! My sat fat is usually low and fat meets RDI%.
There is potential that your fats are too low. Most RDI standards are barely adequate, especially when in a deficit. It make be worth evaluating it. Interestingly enough, if one does not consume enough SFA, your body will produce its own..1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »I shall carry on eating my halloumi with glee then!! Though actually, I do want to see if tempeh makes any noticeable difference to pesky womanly hormonal things (phytoestrogens), and I also want to test lower sodium prior to ovulation to see if it helps the bloat (apparently we're more sensitive to sodium, and therefore sodium-related fluid retention at that time).
Interestingly enough about 4 or 5 years ago, a women conducted an experiment over 6 months or more when it came to her TOM. During those periods of time, she are at maintenance levels. Ironically, she lost weight every month.
I assumed it did this due to less hormonal stresses caused by a deficit and the increased metabolic need to repair the body, similar to time of injury. So whilw more therotical, it was a very interesting obversation.
I could Google and I could be remembering incorrectly but don't women also run very slightly warmer during their period and that could also account for some of the additional energy use?2 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »I shall carry on eating my halloumi with glee then!! Though actually, I do want to see if tempeh makes any noticeable difference to pesky womanly hormonal things (phytoestrogens), and I also want to test lower sodium prior to ovulation to see if it helps the bloat (apparently we're more sensitive to sodium, and therefore sodium-related fluid retention at that time).
Interestingly enough about 4 or 5 years ago, a women conducted an experiment over 6 months or more when it came to her TOM. During those periods of time, she are at maintenance levels. Ironically, she lost weight every month.
I assumed it did this due to less hormonal stresses caused by a deficit and the increased metabolic need to repair the body, similar to time of injury. So whilw more therotical, it was a very interesting obversation.
I could Google and I could be remembering incorrectly but don't women also run very slightly warmer during their period and that could also account for some of the additional energy use?
I havent researched it but it would be logical if they did from a slight uptic in metabolism.1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »I shall carry on eating my halloumi with glee then!! Though actually, I do want to see if tempeh makes any noticeable difference to pesky womanly hormonal things (phytoestrogens), and I also want to test lower sodium prior to ovulation to see if it helps the bloat (apparently we're more sensitive to sodium, and therefore sodium-related fluid retention at that time).
Interestingly enough about 4 or 5 years ago, a women conducted an experiment over 6 months or more when it came to her TOM. During those periods of time, she are at maintenance levels. Ironically, she lost weight every month.
I assumed it did this due to less hormonal stresses caused by a deficit and the increased metabolic need to repair the body, similar to time of injury. So whilw more therotical, it was a very interesting obversation.
Well there's also the thing that a woman's caloric needs are generally higher in the luteal phase, by 100-300 cals (though not for all women). Results for last week for me are not in yet due to still carrying some fluid, but it will be interesting to see what my loss is.2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »CynthiasChoice wrote: »I just thought I'd come back with an update. I just completed my 14 day diet break and feel great. Thanks again Nony for your help getting started, and for prodding me repeatedly to check my data and do the math to find my TDEE. Having that number helped me relax through the process.
It's encouraging to know that maintenance is not as difficult as I imagined it would be. If anything, it was difficult to eat enough to reach my calorie and carb goal. I'm sure as I lose fat, my TDEE will be lower, and I won't have so many calories to eat, but still the diet break experience helped boost my confidence. I needed that, as someone who has never purposefully tracked calories to maintain a weight loss. (ashamed to say, but true)
I'm happy that my weight dipped back down to my starting weight of two weeks ago. After 5 days I was up 1.4 pounds, but on Day 14 of the Diet Break, I weigh exactly what I weighed on Day One. Yay! I feel like the universe rewarded me.
Now for the real test. As I return to a daily deficit of 400 calories, we'll see if the diet break did anything to restore my metabolism.
I'm going to consider your advice Nony, to do another break after 6 weeks instead of 12.
Thanks for updating Cynthia I think it's really important that people reading this thread see that people are doing the diet break, feeling good, and not gaining 10 lbs in the process 
. I have to say I'm really impressed with how well you embraced this. You had some concerns up front, but you took our word for it and gave it a go. I knew going in that you ate lower carb, and not once did you go 'argh, but I can't possibly eat over 100 grams of carbohydrates!'. You just said 'this is what I need to do', and you did it
(ETA: I hope that doesn't sound patronising, it's not meant to be!)
I think bringing the diet break in again a bit sooner is a good plan. Think of it as preventative care. You could even push it out to 8 weeks and have it conveniently coincide with Christmas/New Year.
Ok. NOW I'm going to say it: Argh, Argh, Argh! I'm so hungry the first day back on calorie deficit! I've had so much water I'm going to pop. I'll try deep breathing and meditating now to see if that will calm my vagus nerve. Actually right now...hold on....
Yep, that did it. No more hunger pangs for now. I've only used meditation a handful of times as a hunger control device, but it helps every time. I don't know why I always resist it and put it off. Now that I think about it, it's likely that meditation lowers cortisol. Adding it to my daily habits might be helpful in keeping things in balance.3 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »This thread is awesome.
Although I can't seem to find/recall what @livingleanlivingclean is having a problem with. It's a mystery wrapped in a mystery.
Haha - pick any symptom of thyroid/hormonal/cortisol/adrenal issues and I've probably got it. To me, it's like all the body systems involved have decided not to talk to each other, and I don't know which one to work on to start them being friends and working together again..
A few months ago I went to an info night by some naturopaths involved with one of the supplement companies I used to use (that many people have had lots of success and improvements with) - I literally broke down in tears as they spoke, just out of frustration, due to all the issues they brought up applying to me, and having done all of the things they recommended doing to alleviate them with no apparent changes.
I have no doubt that it's related to training, and diet... I just haven't been able to determine which factor is affecting me, or what I need to do to make my body flick the switch on that has somehow been switched off.
I know this is a complete stab in the dark, but your story makes me so sad for you! Have you seen an endocrinologist who has agreed to do extensive thyroid testing? The tests commonly done can give misleading results and not catch real problems. I had a friend who suffered for a long time before finding the right specialist at UCSF who performed the right tests and got to the bottom of her issue. It took a while to get medications right but now she feels fabulous. I wish I knew more to tell you. Best of luck finding the right answers.1 -
CynthiasChoice wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »CynthiasChoice wrote: »I just thought I'd come back with an update. I just completed my 14 day diet break and feel great. Thanks again Nony for your help getting started, and for prodding me repeatedly to check my data and do the math to find my TDEE. Having that number helped me relax through the process.
It's encouraging to know that maintenance is not as difficult as I imagined it would be. If anything, it was difficult to eat enough to reach my calorie and carb goal. I'm sure as I lose fat, my TDEE will be lower, and I won't have so many calories to eat, but still the diet break experience helped boost my confidence. I needed that, as someone who has never purposefully tracked calories to maintain a weight loss. (ashamed to say, but true)
I'm happy that my weight dipped back down to my starting weight of two weeks ago. After 5 days I was up 1.4 pounds, but on Day 14 of the Diet Break, I weigh exactly what I weighed on Day One. Yay! I feel like the universe rewarded me.
Now for the real test. As I return to a daily deficit of 400 calories, we'll see if the diet break did anything to restore my metabolism.
I'm going to consider your advice Nony, to do another break after 6 weeks instead of 12.
Thanks for updating Cynthia I think it's really important that people reading this thread see that people are doing the diet break, feeling good, and not gaining 10 lbs in the process . I have to say I'm really impressed with how well you embraced this. You had some concerns up front, but you took our word for it and gave it a go. I knew going in that you ate lower carb, and not once did you go 'argh, but I can't possibly eat over 100 grams of carbohydrates!'. You just said 'this is what I need to do', and you did it
(ETA: I hope that doesn't sound patronising, it's not meant to be!)
I think bringing the diet break in again a bit sooner is a good plan. Think of it as preventative care. You could even push it out to 8 weeks and have it conveniently coincide with Christmas/New Year.
Ok. NOW I'm going to say it: Argh, Argh, Argh! I'm so hungry the first day back on calorie deficit! I've had so much water I'm going to pop. I'll try deep breathing and meditating now to see if that will calm my vagus nerve. Actually right now...hold on....
Yep, that did it. No more hunger pangs for now. I've only used meditation a handful of times as a hunger control device, but it helps every time. I don't know why I always resist it and put it off. Now that I think about it, it's likely that meditation lowers cortisol. Adding it to my daily habits might be helpful in keeping things in balance.
If it helps, I've been super hungry the last few days too. I'm putting it down to hormones, even though it's not my usual pattern. PMS was late to the party, but went 'meh, I'll stick around and make a nuisance of myself anyway'. At least my energy is better today, so I can get a decent amount of exercise cals and eat more.1 -
Sorry you're dealing with PMS. Thankfully, that's all behind me now, and so are night sweats and hot flashes. But there's always some new nuisance to take the place of the last one. Memory slips, achy joints, and the first signs of the dreaded waddle starting to form. (Groan)
Do you think meditation would help PMS symptoms?0 -
CynthiasChoice wrote: »Sorry you're dealing with PMS. Thankfully, that's all behind me now, and so are night sweats and hot flashes. But there's always some new nuisance to take the place of the last one. Memory slips, achy joints, and the first signs of the dreaded waddle starting to form. (Groan)
Do you think meditation would help PMS symptoms?
Yoga helps. Really the hunger is the only straggler (TOM arrived a couple of days ago). Normally I'm uber hungry a day or two before, this month it hit a couple of hours before, to the point of nausea, and has hung around. Joys of perimenopause, all my predictability of previous years has gone out the window. Water weight also seems to not be dropping off straight away like it always has. Fun times! At least no hot flashes yet.1 -
I thought I'd chuck the link to the discussion we had a few weeks ago about the MATADOR study in here: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10604391/intermittent-vs-continuous-weight-loss/p12
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Thanks guys for the responses.
I asked because I'm usually very low in sat fats most days (around 15-20g or so) and wondered whether it caused hormonal issues.
I've had and continue to have hair loss issues (because of hereditary reasons and made worse when I stopped BC). I've tried the supplements (biotin, kelp, Omega 3 and so on) but they didn't really help. TBH though, I never stuck to them for long anyway.
@anubis609, thanks for the links. I'll have a read through the articles.
@psuLemon, lol, I had to google to see what SFA meant and found the first result being Sweet Furry Animals!!! I finally scrolled down the results to saturated fatty acids.
ETA: I read through my last post and clearly did not say what I wanted to say! My sat fat is usually low and fat meets RDI%.
There is potential that your fats are too low. Most RDI standards are barely adequate, especially when in a deficit. It make be worth evaluating it. Interestingly enough, if one does not consume enough SFA, your body will produce its own..
Yeah, I'll try to adjust percentages (...again, sigh).
Thanks.0 -
Thanks guys for the responses.
I asked because I'm usually very low in sat fats most days (around 15-20g or so) and wondered whether it caused hormonal issues.
I've had and continue to have hair loss issues (because of hereditary reasons and made worse when I stopped BC). I've tried the supplements (biotin, kelp, Omega 3 and so on) but they didn't really help. TBH though, I never stuck to them for long anyway.
@anubis609, thanks for the links. I'll have a read through the articles.
@psuLemon, lol, I had to google to see what SFA meant and found the first result being Sweet Furry Animals!!! I finally scrolled down the results to saturated fatty acids.
ETA: I read through my last post and clearly did not say what I wanted to say! My sat fat is usually low and fat meets RDI%.
There is potential that your fats are too low. Most RDI standards are barely adequate, especially when in a deficit. It make be worth evaluating it. Interestingly enough, if one does not consume enough SFA, your body will produce its own..
Yeah, I'll try to adjust percentages (...again, sigh).
Thanks.
How many grams are you eating at the moment @maybyn? The recommendation I usually see is 0.35-0.45g per lb of 'ideal' weight as a minimum, but I've also seen up to 0.6g. I'm generally in the 0.45-0.6g range, with no real qualms about going over.1 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »I shall carry on eating my halloumi with glee then!! Though actually, I do want to see if tempeh makes any noticeable difference to pesky womanly hormonal things (phytoestrogens), and I also want to test lower sodium prior to ovulation to see if it helps the bloat (apparently we're more sensitive to sodium, and therefore sodium-related fluid retention at that time).
Interestingly enough about 4 or 5 years ago, a women conducted an experiment over 6 months or more when it came to her TOM. During those periods of time, she are at maintenance levels. Ironically, she lost weight every month.
I assumed it did this due to less hormonal stresses caused by a deficit and the increased metabolic need to repair the body, similar to time of injury. So whilw more therotical, it was a very interesting obversation.
I could Google and I could be remembering incorrectly but don't women also run very slightly warmer during their period and that could also account for some of the additional energy use?
I havent researched it but it would be logical if they did from a slight uptic in metabolism.
I have a Fitbit. My heart rate increases slightly during that time of the month.0 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »I shall carry on eating my halloumi with glee then!! Though actually, I do want to see if tempeh makes any noticeable difference to pesky womanly hormonal things (phytoestrogens), and I also want to test lower sodium prior to ovulation to see if it helps the bloat (apparently we're more sensitive to sodium, and therefore sodium-related fluid retention at that time).
Interestingly enough about 4 or 5 years ago, a women conducted an experiment over 6 months or more when it came to her TOM. During those periods of time, she are at maintenance levels. Ironically, she lost weight every month.
I assumed it did this due to less hormonal stresses caused by a deficit and the increased metabolic need to repair the body, similar to time of injury. So whilw more therotical, it was a very interesting obversation.
I could Google and I could be remembering incorrectly but don't women also run very slightly warmer during their period and that could also account for some of the additional energy use?
I havent researched it but it would be logical if they did from a slight uptic in metabolism.
I have a Fitbit. My heart rate increases slightly during that time of the month.
You've just reminded me actually. I've just had my two emragherd I'm permanently famished two days of hunger prior to my pill break week. And my heartrate too was a bit higher for a couple of days. I've only just got a tracker with OHR (had one without before) so was really interesting to see!1 -
Last month was a near perfect example (usually I have more ups and downs):
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Sodium is ... not my friend. I now understand why the dietitian said to focus on improving the sodium levels before we tackle the calories... because well, another pound of that loss came back.
I think I need to find another "safe" food that is lower in sodium that I can pick up on rough days to have for dinner -- I've been doing sushi, because it's higher in protein and a moderate amount of carbs, but that's really messing with my heads. Right now, it's taking a lot of teeth-gritting to not be all "Well, nope, that idea didn't work."0 -
Could you have the sushi without soy sauce? Because really it's the soy sauce with all the sodium. It's also carb heavy which can cause some water weight.0
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collectingblues wrote: »Sodium is ... not my friend. I now understand why the dietitian said to focus on improving the sodium levels before we tackle the calories... because well, another pound of that loss came back.
I think I need to find another "safe" food that is lower in sodium that I can pick up on rough days to have for dinner -- I've been doing sushi, because it's higher in protein and a moderate amount of carbs, but that's really messing with my heads. Right now, it's taking a lot of teeth-gritting to not be all "Well, nope, that idea didn't work."
The bigger issue with sodium is two fold: when people don't maintain consistent levels of sodium (i.e., huge swings from day to day) and when they don't consume adequate potassium and magnesium for electrolyte balance. I have a fairly consistent range of sodium (~ 4-5k/day) and don't have issues with water retention.3 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Could you have the sushi without soy sauce? Because really it's the soy sauce with all the sodium. It's also carb heavy which can cause some water weight.
I never have the soy sauce because it makes it too salty.
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collectingblues wrote: »Sodium is ... not my friend. I now understand why the dietitian said to focus on improving the sodium levels before we tackle the calories... because well, another pound of that loss came back.
I think I need to find another "safe" food that is lower in sodium that I can pick up on rough days to have for dinner -- I've been doing sushi, because it's higher in protein and a moderate amount of carbs, but that's really messing with my heads. Right now, it's taking a lot of teeth-gritting to not be all "Well, nope, that idea didn't work."
The bigger issue with sodium is two fold: when people don't maintain consistent levels of sodium (i.e., huge swings from day to day) and when they don't consume adequate potassium and magnesium for electrolyte balance. I have a fairly consistent range of sodium (~ 4-5k/day) and don't have issues with water retention.
Yeah, that's the bigger problem we're trying to fix right now. I tend to swing between 1500 to 1900 on a "normal" day, and then get spun into this loop when I actually eat stuff with salt in it.0 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Thanks guys for the responses.
I asked because I'm usually very low in sat fats most days (around 15-20g or so) and wondered whether it caused hormonal issues.
I've had and continue to have hair loss issues (because of hereditary reasons and made worse when I stopped BC). I've tried the supplements (biotin, kelp, Omega 3 and so on) but they didn't really help. TBH though, I never stuck to them for long anyway.
@anubis609, thanks for the links. I'll have a read through the articles.
@psuLemon, lol, I had to google to see what SFA meant and found the first result being Sweet Furry Animals!!! I finally scrolled down the results to saturated fatty acids.
ETA: I read through my last post and clearly did not say what I wanted to say! My sat fat is usually low and fat meets RDI%.
There is potential that your fats are too low. Most RDI standards are barely adequate, especially when in a deficit. It make be worth evaluating it. Interestingly enough, if one does not consume enough SFA, your body will produce its own..
Yeah, I'll try to adjust percentages (...again, sigh).
Thanks.
How many grams are you eating at the moment @maybyn? The recommendation I usually see is 0.35-0.45g per lb of 'ideal' weight as a minimum, but I've also seen up to 0.6g. I'm generally in the 0.45-0.6g range, with no real qualms about going over.
@Nony_Mouse, mine is supposed to be 50g fat, 225g carbs and 113 protein. I usually focus only on protein and fibre goals (latter generally takes care of carbs). I try to incorporate fat purposefully (avos, eggs, butter) and every so often, treats, so sat fats are usually low.
From your formula, it seems like 50g should be fine then.collectingblues wrote: »Sodium is ... not my friend. I now understand why the dietitian said to focus on improving the sodium levels before we tackle the calories... because well, another pound of that loss came back.
I think I need to find another "safe" food that is lower in sodium that I can pick up on rough days to have for dinner -- I've been doing sushi, because it's higher in protein and a moderate amount of carbs, but that's really messing with my heads. Right now, it's taking a lot of teeth-gritting to not be all "Well, nope, that idea didn't work."
The bigger issue with sodium is two fold: when people don't maintain consistent levels of sodium (i.e., huge swings from day to day) and when they don't consume adequate potassium and magnesium for electrolyte balance. I have a fairly consistent range of sodium (~ 4-5k/day) and don't have issues with water retention.
I find that when my sodium is low, I get headaches. Hits me immediately on the day itself so I've learnt to be very, very careful with sodium.
Re water retention, I agree that I don't have issues with water retention and sodium per se, and it's only when I'm eating out where my sodium spikes that I get water retention issues.2 -
collectingblues wrote: »Sodium is ... not my friend. I now understand why the dietitian said to focus on improving the sodium levels before we tackle the calories... because well, another pound of that loss came back.
I think I need to find another "safe" food that is lower in sodium that I can pick up on rough days to have for dinner -- I've been doing sushi, because it's higher in protein and a moderate amount of carbs, but that's really messing with my heads. Right now, it's taking a lot of teeth-gritting to not be all "Well, nope, that idea didn't work."
The bigger issue with sodium is two fold: when people don't maintain consistent levels of sodium (i.e., huge swings from day to day) and when they don't consume adequate potassium and magnesium for electrolyte balance. I have a fairly consistent range of sodium (~ 4-5k/day) and don't have issues with water retention.
3-5g of Na+ per day is actually recommended across the board as a normal intake. It's misleading to hear that sodium is related to blood pressure/cv risk/etc. because that's actually not the case. Improper sodium intake can lead to deficiencies in potassium and resultantly, magnesium.
http://circres.ahajournals.org/content/116/6/1046.short4 -
So it's Spring in my little corner of the world. The weather is warming up, tramping tracks are drying out, my knee is almost back to 100%, and thus day hikes are calling to me, and obviously I generally do those of weekends. The problem here is that I will easily hit a TDEE of 3500-4000 cals on a decent hike. That's a lot of food! (you men folk are probably going 'yeah, nah'
). There's no way I can do it on 50-60 grams of fat, and I really don't think that's a big deal because it's not like higher fat will be squeezing out carbs. I'm not convinced I can actually hit TDEE though (to be clear, I am more than capable of putting away that many cals, just not in a particularly healthy non-binge way).
Not really looking for suggestions (though if you have 'em, let me know!), more of an 'argh, how am I going to do this??', which I will no doubt work out with some thought and planning. Super carby snack bars are out unless I can find something gluten-free that doesn't taste like cardboard.3 -
Dried fruit is tasty and calorie dense and hike friendly!3
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