Of refeeds and diet breaks

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  • JaydedMiss
    JaydedMiss Posts: 4,286 Member
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    sigh. of course my food scale breaks on day 3 of a diet break im already struggling to pack in calories on. Because why wouldnt life try to complicate the uncomplication of my life LOL
  • bioklutz
    bioklutz Posts: 1,365 Member
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    anubis609 wrote: »
    JaydedMiss wrote: »
    Side note. Mt sodium intake shot up a ton xD Been craving salt. My weights the same but i feel pregnant by bedtime with all the salt and extra food. Its kind of fun lol

    Sodium is an under appreciated nutrient that gets a lot of flack for correlations that are misinterpreted. Usually it's because high sodium is associated with refined and processed foods that contribute to mortality rates, when really, if we were to eat a whole food diet, sodium would be lacking, and from experience, getting dizzy from just standing up with chronically low blood pressure (from being emaciated at my lowest weight) was horrendous. So I naturally craved salt, similar to your craving - though, our situations may be different.

    What I'm trying to say is salt/sodium is really friggin' important lol.

    To the other comments, I think it was all just supplementary to what was being [re]stated. Generalized statements are frequently made for others to read in case it so happens to apply, but not always directed toward an individual.

    Just to exemplify the dynamic adaptation of metabolism, I'm somewhat lean 5'9" @ 175lbs, ~18% bf (visual estimation), my normal deficit cycle is a psmf 4-5 days out of the week (1000-1200kcal) with a refeed/spike day on the weekend (~3500-4000kcal) with another day or two at or just below maintenance (2200-2600kcal), then rinse and repeat for 4-8 weeks, followed by a diet break for 1-2 weeks. Body recomp goals are being met, strength is tracking along relatively well, energy levels and murderous intent have an inverse relationship the longer it goes on, so before it gets bad, I go on a diet break (｡◕‿◕｡)

    ETA: for the first 1.5 years of my initial weight loss period, I slammed total kcal down to 700-1000 per day (not following a certain macro ratio and protein was horribly low), almost everyday until the bulk of my 130lbs was lost.. realizing I lost muscle, I went back to maintenance eating for my weight.. gained some back, maintained 185-190 for the duration of my engagement. Once that went away, so did any excess fat I gained during that time. Now, I'm recomping (small periods of bulking and cutting for fat loss, not necessarily scale weight loss), with the above eating schedule and lifting heavy weight.

    In the past few months I have been making an effort to increase my sodium. I had been getting horrible calf cramps a few times a week. I was drinking enough fluids - so dehydration was not the issue. I suspected magnesium or sodium might have been the issue. I was not ready to start taking a magnesium supplement on top of my multi vitamin with out getting the OK from my doctor. I looked at my diary and it seemed like sodium was typically under 2300 mg/day. I started liberally sprinkling salt on dinner and the calf cramps have subsided!
  • nexangelus
    nexangelus Posts: 2,081 Member
    edited October 2017
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    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Thanks for the insights on what you're doing, @anubis609.

    When I decided to do my diet break, I also decided I would drop my deficit to 350 cals per day, with weekends at maintenance, mostly to bring it in line with the conventional MFP wisdom of smaller deficits (0.5 lb per week weight loss) for those closer to goal.

    See now, diet break to me, from what I have read via Lyle's site and other sources, is coming off the deficit and eating at maintenance (plus or minus 100 or so calories) for the full 14 days...this is what I did eat, at roughly maintenance (cos I was not logging but eyeballing), otherwise it is not a diet break, you are just carrying on the diet with a smaller deficit...I will do the same in two weeks' time...eat at maintenance...then the exciting bit of eating at a surplus arrives...

    Or are you meaning, before you did your diet break, you lessened your deficit, etc...?
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    nexangelus wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Thanks for the insights on what you're doing, @anubis609.

    When I decided to do my diet break, I also decided I would drop my deficit to 350 cals per day, with weekends at maintenance, mostly to bring it in line with the conventional MFP wisdom of smaller deficits (0.5 lb per week weight loss) for those closer to goal.

    See now, diet break to me, from what I have read via Lyle's site and other sources, is coming off the deficit and eating at maintenance (plus or minus 100 or so calories) for the full 14 days...this is what I did eat, at roughly maintenance (cos I was not logging but eyeballing), otherwise it is not a diet break, you are just carrying on the diet with a smaller deficit...I will do the same in two weeks' time...eat at maintenance...then the exciting bit of eating at a surplus arrives...

    Or are you meaning, before you did your diet break, you lessened your deficit, etc...?

    If you read the thread, I say several times that I did a full diet break. So, diet break, dropped deficit following that (which I'm now reneging on), weekends are higher carb refeeds at maintenance cals as described in the video in the first post.
  • Rickster1967
    Rickster1967 Posts: 485 Member
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    VintageFeline wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    TavistockToad wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    So I had dinner and was still a bit hungry, so I had 100g of Fage 0% Fat Greek Yoghurt with a teaspoon of sugar for 20g of carbs and 11g protein

    it appears to have done the trick

    should note I walked for 90 minutes between breakfast and lunch carry a large heavy rucksack, not sure if that has anything to do with it

    I mean yesterday I did X-trainer HIIT and heavy legs weights session... and I wasn't hungry all day

    gah no idea what's going on

    Sounds like over thinking... it's one day...

    been properly hungry even after a 600 calorie meal, all day

    nothing to do with thinking

    Toad's point is that it's one day.

    And that the deficit up until now has been pretty aggressive and therefore hunger is no surprise at this point.

    yes that's what I was thinking when I made my original post about being hungry

    That the 700 calorie deficit had finally caught up with me

    but I seem OK this morning, just about to eat breakfast, just feel normally hungry

    thanks everyone, just came as a shock really to be hungry and not be able to satisfy it
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    TavistockToad wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    So I had dinner and was still a bit hungry, so I had 100g of Fage 0% Fat Greek Yoghurt with a teaspoon of sugar for 20g of carbs and 11g protein

    it appears to have done the trick

    should note I walked for 90 minutes between breakfast and lunch carry a large heavy rucksack, not sure if that has anything to do with it

    I mean yesterday I did X-trainer HIIT and heavy legs weights session... and I wasn't hungry all day

    gah no idea what's going on

    Sounds like over thinking... it's one day...

    been properly hungry even after a 600 calorie meal, all day

    nothing to do with thinking

    Toad's point is that it's one day.

    And that the deficit up until now has been pretty aggressive and therefore hunger is no surprise at this point.

    yes that's what I was thinking when I made my original post about being hungry

    That the 700 calorie deficit had finally caught up with me

    but I seem OK this morning, just about to eat breakfast, just feel normally hungry

    thanks everyone, just came as a shock really to be hungry and not be able to satisfy it

    If you're losing 2.5 lb a week you're daily deficit is more than 700.
  • Rickster1967
    Rickster1967 Posts: 485 Member
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    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    TavistockToad wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    So I had dinner and was still a bit hungry, so I had 100g of Fage 0% Fat Greek Yoghurt with a teaspoon of sugar for 20g of carbs and 11g protein

    it appears to have done the trick

    should note I walked for 90 minutes between breakfast and lunch carry a large heavy rucksack, not sure if that has anything to do with it

    I mean yesterday I did X-trainer HIIT and heavy legs weights session... and I wasn't hungry all day

    gah no idea what's going on

    Sounds like over thinking... it's one day...

    been properly hungry even after a 600 calorie meal, all day

    nothing to do with thinking

    Toad's point is that it's one day.

    And that the deficit up until now has been pretty aggressive and therefore hunger is no surprise at this point.

    yes that's what I was thinking when I made my original post about being hungry

    That the 700 calorie deficit had finally caught up with me

    but I seem OK this morning, just about to eat breakfast, just feel normally hungry

    thanks everyone, just came as a shock really to be hungry and not be able to satisfy it

    If you're losing 2.5 lb a week you're daily deficit is more than 700.

    The 700 deficit is TDEE - BMR based on sedentary lifestyle

    but I am doing some fairly decent specific exercise (2 x weight training, bicycling, walk-jog, step ups)

    and I'm not eating back those calories and that's where the extra deficit is coming from
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    Options
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    TavistockToad wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    So I had dinner and was still a bit hungry, so I had 100g of Fage 0% Fat Greek Yoghurt with a teaspoon of sugar for 20g of carbs and 11g protein

    it appears to have done the trick

    should note I walked for 90 minutes between breakfast and lunch carry a large heavy rucksack, not sure if that has anything to do with it

    I mean yesterday I did X-trainer HIIT and heavy legs weights session... and I wasn't hungry all day

    gah no idea what's going on

    Sounds like over thinking... it's one day...

    been properly hungry even after a 600 calorie meal, all day

    nothing to do with thinking

    Toad's point is that it's one day.

    And that the deficit up until now has been pretty aggressive and therefore hunger is no surprise at this point.

    yes that's what I was thinking when I made my original post about being hungry

    That the 700 calorie deficit had finally caught up with me

    but I seem OK this morning, just about to eat breakfast, just feel normally hungry

    thanks everyone, just came as a shock really to be hungry and not be able to satisfy it

    If you're losing 2.5 lb a week you're daily deficit is more than 700.

    The 700 deficit is TDEE - BMR based on sedentary lifestyle

    but I am doing some fairly decent specific exercise (2 x weight training, bicycling, walk-jog, step ups)

    and I'm not eating back those calories and that's where the extra deficit is coming from

    I don't really want to get into it on this thread because it's taking it off topic, but your deficit isn't 700, it's more like 1350 (based on 2.5 lb per week loss). You need to include the exercise in the calculation. So yeah, no wonder you're hungry. That's higher than the maximum recommended. At your starting weight, a 1000 per day deficit was okay, but you should really be dropping that to 500-750 (including exercise) now.
  • Rickster1967
    Rickster1967 Posts: 485 Member
    Options
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    TavistockToad wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    So I had dinner and was still a bit hungry, so I had 100g of Fage 0% Fat Greek Yoghurt with a teaspoon of sugar for 20g of carbs and 11g protein

    it appears to have done the trick

    should note I walked for 90 minutes between breakfast and lunch carry a large heavy rucksack, not sure if that has anything to do with it

    I mean yesterday I did X-trainer HIIT and heavy legs weights session... and I wasn't hungry all day

    gah no idea what's going on

    Sounds like over thinking... it's one day...

    been properly hungry even after a 600 calorie meal, all day

    nothing to do with thinking

    Toad's point is that it's one day.

    And that the deficit up until now has been pretty aggressive and therefore hunger is no surprise at this point.

    yes that's what I was thinking when I made my original post about being hungry

    That the 700 calorie deficit had finally caught up with me

    but I seem OK this morning, just about to eat breakfast, just feel normally hungry

    thanks everyone, just came as a shock really to be hungry and not be able to satisfy it

    If you're losing 2.5 lb a week you're daily deficit is more than 700.

    The 700 deficit is TDEE - BMR based on sedentary lifestyle

    but I am doing some fairly decent specific exercise (2 x weight training, bicycling, walk-jog, step ups)

    and I'm not eating back those calories and that's where the extra deficit is coming from

    I don't really want to get into it on this thread because it's taking it off topic, but your deficit isn't 700, it's more like 1350 (based on 2.5 lb per week loss). You need to include the exercise in the calculation. So yeah, no wonder you're hungry. That's higher than the maximum recommended. At your starting weight, a 1000 per day deficit was okay, but you should really be dropping that to 500-750 (including exercise) now.

    thanks

    as I said though, yesterday was the first day I've been hungry and I've been eating the same calories every day for 92 days now

    I'll speak to my PT about it
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
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    nexangelus wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Thanks for the insights on what you're doing, @anubis609.

    When I decided to do my diet break, I also decided I would drop my deficit to 350 cals per day, with weekends at maintenance, mostly to bring it in line with the conventional MFP wisdom of smaller deficits (0.5 lb per week weight loss) for those closer to goal.

    See now, diet break to me, from what I have read via Lyle's site and other sources, is coming off the deficit and eating at maintenance (plus or minus 100 or so calories) for the full 14 days...this is what I did eat, at roughly maintenance (cos I was not logging but eyeballing), otherwise it is not a diet break, you are just carrying on the diet with a smaller deficit...I will do the same in two weeks' time...eat at maintenance...then the exciting bit of eating at a surplus arrives...

    Or are you meaning, before you did your diet break, you lessened your deficit, etc...?

    What she's doing is the refeed method. Talked about in the video. In the OP. With Lyle McDonald.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    VintageFeline wrote: »
    nexangelus wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Thanks for the insights on what you're doing, @anubis609.

    When I decided to do my diet break, I also decided I would drop my deficit to 350 cals per day, with weekends at maintenance, mostly to bring it in line with the conventional MFP wisdom of smaller deficits (0.5 lb per week weight loss) for those closer to goal.

    See now, diet break to me, from what I have read via Lyle's site and other sources, is coming off the deficit and eating at maintenance (plus or minus 100 or so calories) for the full 14 days...this is what I did eat, at roughly maintenance (cos I was not logging but eyeballing), otherwise it is not a diet break, you are just carrying on the diet with a smaller deficit...I will do the same in two weeks' time...eat at maintenance...then the exciting bit of eating at a surplus arrives...

    Or are you meaning, before you did your diet break, you lessened your deficit, etc...?

    What she's doing is the refeed method. Talked about in the video. In the OP. With Lyle McDonald.

    It always helps to actually read the thread to understand what is going on within it. Just sayin....
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    mmapags wrote: »
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    nexangelus wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Thanks for the insights on what you're doing, @anubis609.

    When I decided to do my diet break, I also decided I would drop my deficit to 350 cals per day, with weekends at maintenance, mostly to bring it in line with the conventional MFP wisdom of smaller deficits (0.5 lb per week weight loss) for those closer to goal.

    See now, diet break to me, from what I have read via Lyle's site and other sources, is coming off the deficit and eating at maintenance (plus or minus 100 or so calories) for the full 14 days...this is what I did eat, at roughly maintenance (cos I was not logging but eyeballing), otherwise it is not a diet break, you are just carrying on the diet with a smaller deficit...I will do the same in two weeks' time...eat at maintenance...then the exciting bit of eating at a surplus arrives...

    Or are you meaning, before you did your diet break, you lessened your deficit, etc...?

    What she's doing is the refeed method. Talked about in the video. In the OP. With Lyle McDonald.

    It always helps to actually read the thread to understand what is going on within it. Just sayin....

    Yeah, you'd think after nine pages of talking about it, having posted the link to Lyle's article more than once, it would be abundantly clear that I know what is meant by the term diet break, and would be unlikely to just make up my own thing (doing whacky things with my deficit days is another matter entirely!!).

    I have raging PMS (OMG guyz, I gained a billion kilos, what happened??!!), so am definitely looking forward to tomorrow's carb-fest. Hopefully absurd hunger doesn't kick in today instead and I've time this sucker right. And advance apologies if I'm a snarky monster over the next couple of days :p.
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
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    Lol @Nony_Mouse - I can overlook it ;D Then again, I also take nothing seriously haha.

    If it makes you feel better, next week I go back to hard dieting and vegetable sadness for my deficit days ಠ~ಠ
  • nexangelus
    nexangelus Posts: 2,081 Member
    edited October 2017
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    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    mmapags wrote: »
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    nexangelus wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Thanks for the insights on what you're doing, @anubis609.

    When I decided to do my diet break, I also decided I would drop my deficit to 350 cals per day, with weekends at maintenance, mostly to bring it in line with the conventional MFP wisdom of smaller deficits (0.5 lb per week weight loss) for those closer to goal.

    See now, diet break to me, from what I have read via Lyle's site and other sources, is coming off the deficit and eating at maintenance (plus or minus 100 or so calories) for the full 14 days...this is what I did eat, at roughly maintenance (cos I was not logging but eyeballing), otherwise it is not a diet break, you are just carrying on the diet with a smaller deficit...I will do the same in two weeks' time...eat at maintenance...then the exciting bit of eating at a surplus arrives...

    Or are you meaning, before you did your diet break, you lessened your deficit, etc...?

    What she's doing is the refeed method. Talked about in the video. In the OP. With Lyle McDonald.

    It always helps to actually read the thread to understand what is going on within it. Just sayin....

    Yeah, you'd think after nine pages of talking about it, having posted the link to Lyle's article more than once, it would be abundantly clear that I know what is meant by the term diet break, and would be unlikely to just make up my own thing (doing whacky things with my deficit days is another matter entirely!!).

    I have raging PMS (OMG guyz, I gained a billion kilos, what happened??!!), so am definitely looking forward to tomorrow's carb-fest. Hopefully absurd hunger doesn't kick in today instead and I've time this sucker right. And advance apologies if I'm a snarky monster over the next couple of days :p.

    Oooh snark city this...I never said anyone was unaware of anything, I read all of your posts and I did ask a question at the end of mine...sheesh...ok raging pms....that explains it I guess....as well as the repetition, in that case too...*shrug*

  • JaydedMiss
    JaydedMiss Posts: 4,286 Member
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    heybales wrote: »
    JaydedMiss wrote: »
    sigh. of course my food scale breaks on day 3 of a diet break im already struggling to pack in calories on. Because why wouldnt life try to complicate the uncomplication of my life LOL

    Wow - scale broke - you must really be piling it on for calories!


    :p

    just lold so hard at this after a horrible day at work LOL. Thanks. And damn right i am ;) Nommmmm
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    psuLemon wrote: »
    richln wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    Lyle's article on the formal full diet break: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-full-diet-break.html/

    Haha, I've read that thing inside out and backwards @anubis609. I understand the rationale behind the carb increase for both diet break and refeed, I was asking more specifically if you knew the rationale behind keeping fats lower on the refeed. It may have been as simple (for women, cos lower TDEE) as having more room for carbs, but I think there was something more sciencey around leptin uptake in that shorter space of time. No matter, I'm sure I will stumble across it again (I really should start taking notes, so I know where I've seen these things!).

    ...

    The reasoning for keeping dietary fat low on a short carbohydrate refeed is that de novo lipogenesis is a very non-preferred pathway during severe-to-moderate glycogen depletion. The converse is not true in that fat overfeeding in such a state will preferably follow pathways to body fat gain. Here is one paper:
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/48/2/240.short
    There are others with higher n studies, but I don't have time for digging right now. It is called "carbohydrate overfeeding" in the scientific literature if you want to look for them. A short 2-day refeed is not going to do much to repair an unfavorable hormonal profile, hence the utility of a longer diet break. You will restore glycogen after 1-3 days at maintenance (assuming you are not low-carbing), so there is no immediate value in keeping dietary fat low after that point.

    To add to this, one of the points that Lyle makes in the video (and I think it wasn't discussed enough) is that fat doesn't have the impact on leptin, cortisol and thyroid functions that carbs do; so in this case, why use up calories on a non beneficial macronutrient (outside of personal preference or to ensure adequate calories).


    I can definitely make a play to stickie this topic, but it will most likely have to be in the BB/Gaining Weight section. I say that because, it's the only place we can discuss Lyle's "horrible" diets. The reason being, is the only people who should be following those style diets are the ones who have a solid foundation in nutrition/dieting as they tend to be fairly aggressive and often do not comply with MFP's standards.

    So if that is a path we would like to take, please let me know and I can move the thread.

    kqHskVg.jpg

    If I decide to get back in calorie counting, I may have to use this strategy. But man and I haven't a tough time getting leaner (~16% now). Mentally, calorie count has been rough.

    Thanks @psuLemon. I think I'd rather it stay here in general, because really the focus is on diet breaks and refeeds to mitigate the effects that dieting has on leptin, cortisol, thyroid etc, which, especially in the case of regular diet breaks, is something that imho everyone losing weight should be employing. Lyle's actual diets for weight loss etc (which I haven't really looked into cos doesn't apply to me) are definitely for the more advanced (and even he says they're horrible!).

    Deficit during the week is definitely easier when you know you have the weekend to look forward to! I'm even shooting for the extra couple of kg I never got around to losing before, simply because another 3 kg from where I am now doesn't seem that big a deal anymore.
  • maybyn
    maybyn Posts: 233 Member
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    psuLemon wrote: »
    richln wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    Lyle's article on the formal full diet break: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-full-diet-break.html/

    Haha, I've read that thing inside out and backwards @anubis609. I understand the rationale behind the carb increase for both diet break and refeed, I was asking more specifically if you knew the rationale behind keeping fats lower on the refeed. It may have been as simple (for women, cos lower TDEE) as having more room for carbs, but I think there was something more sciencey around leptin uptake in that shorter space of time. No matter, I'm sure I will stumble across it again (I really should start taking notes, so I know where I've seen these things!).

    ...

    The reasoning for keeping dietary fat low on a short carbohydrate refeed is that de novo lipogenesis is a very non-preferred pathway during severe-to-moderate glycogen depletion. The converse is not true in that fat overfeeding in such a state will preferably follow pathways to body fat gain. Here is one paper:
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/48/2/240.short
    There are others with higher n studies, but I don't have time for digging right now. It is called "carbohydrate overfeeding" in the scientific literature if you want to look for them. A short 2-day refeed is not going to do much to repair an unfavorable hormonal profile, hence the utility of a longer diet break. You will restore glycogen after 1-3 days at maintenance (assuming you are not low-carbing), so there is no immediate value in keeping dietary fat low after that point.

    To add to this, one of the points that Lyle makes in the video (and I think it wasn't discussed enough) is that fat doesn't have the impact on leptin, cortisol and thyroid functions that carbs do; so in this case, why use up calories on a non beneficial macronutrient (outside of personal preference or to ensure adequate calories).


    I can definitely make a play to stickie this topic, but it will most likely have to be in the BB/Gaining Weight section. I say that because, it's the only place we can discuss Lyle's "horrible" diets. The reason being, is the only people who should be following those style diets are the ones who have a solid foundation in nutrition/dieting as they tend to be fairly aggressive and often do not comply with MFP's standards.

    So if that is a path we would like to take, please let me know and I can move the thread.

    kqHskVg.jpg

    If I decide to get back in calorie counting, I may have to use this strategy. But man and I haven't a tough time getting leaner (~16% now). Mentally, calorie count has been rough.


    Would you mind explaining what you mean about his "horrible" diets? Do you mean the fasting diets he has?

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