Of refeeds and diet breaks

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  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
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    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    maybyn wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    Today for the first time in my 91 days logging, I'm really hungry

    I've had my usual breakfast lunch and snack but have been hungry all day despite eating.

    will see what happens after dinner which is about 630 cals but I'm dreading being hungry afterwards

    any thoughts?

    FYI, I tried Day 1 of a refeed yesterday.

    I had aimed for maintenance but went over maintenance by 500 cals with 60c/30p/10f macros (so 2700 cals for the day) because I was hungry and did this as a deliberate choice.

    Did not seem to harm my progress at all because I was down by 0.22 pounds today.

    Caveat:
    - It might also have something to do with me being more relaxed in the last 2 weeks since I upped my cals to a 300 deficit (all the cortisol, leptin and stuff...)
    - It might also be my maintenance being higher than what I thought it was because I've been losing way faster than what I should have been on a 300 cal deficit (again, cortisol high/leptin low?? during the period when I was eating what I thought were my maintenance cals before)

    I'm not even going to pretend that I know anything!!

    The first thing to note is you can't make any assessments of progress impact overnight. The second, your maintenance is almost certainly higher if you are losing faster than intended, hormones be damned. Particularly if you did have raised cortisol and experienced a whoosh when this reduced, it would suggest you were perhaps losing even faster with it masked on the scale.

    I had a third point but my brain lost it.

    Third point, one day at maintenance (or above) is not enough to bring leptin back up, not even a little. That's not a refeed, in the sense that we are using it here. May have helped in other ways (psychological, which would have it's own effect on cortisol).

    That's all my brain has right now. Maybe @VintageFeline and I should combine our brains for the day to produce full answers.

    I nearly made that point but I think "Day 1" of refeed indicated there would be another. I definitely had another point but editing to remove the 1 day isn't enough point it flew out of my noggin'.

    I'm not sure how sensible combining our brains would be, either genius or the most terrible idea ever brought to thinking.
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
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    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    TavistockToad wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    So I had dinner and was still a bit hungry, so I had 100g of Fage 0% Fat Greek Yoghurt with a teaspoon of sugar for 20g of carbs and 11g protein

    it appears to have done the trick

    should note I walked for 90 minutes between breakfast and lunch carry a large heavy rucksack, not sure if that has anything to do with it

    I mean yesterday I did X-trainer HIIT and heavy legs weights session... and I wasn't hungry all day

    gah no idea what's going on

    Sounds like over thinking... it's one day...

    been properly hungry even after a 600 calorie meal, all day

    nothing to do with thinking

    Toad's point is that it's one day.

    And that the deficit up until now has been pretty aggressive and therefore hunger is no surprise at this point.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    VintageFeline wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    maybyn wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    Today for the first time in my 91 days logging, I'm really hungry

    I've had my usual breakfast lunch and snack but have been hungry all day despite eating.

    will see what happens after dinner which is about 630 cals but I'm dreading being hungry afterwards

    any thoughts?

    FYI, I tried Day 1 of a refeed yesterday.

    I had aimed for maintenance but went over maintenance by 500 cals with 60c/30p/10f macros (so 2700 cals for the day) because I was hungry and did this as a deliberate choice.

    Did not seem to harm my progress at all because I was down by 0.22 pounds today.

    Caveat:
    - It might also have something to do with me being more relaxed in the last 2 weeks since I upped my cals to a 300 deficit (all the cortisol, leptin and stuff...)
    - It might also be my maintenance being higher than what I thought it was because I've been losing way faster than what I should have been on a 300 cal deficit (again, cortisol high/leptin low?? during the period when I was eating what I thought were my maintenance cals before)

    I'm not even going to pretend that I know anything!!

    The first thing to note is you can't make any assessments of progress impact overnight. The second, your maintenance is almost certainly higher if you are losing faster than intended, hormones be damned. Particularly if you did have raised cortisol and experienced a whoosh when this reduced, it would suggest you were perhaps losing even faster with it masked on the scale.

    I had a third point but my brain lost it.

    Third point, one day at maintenance (or above) is not enough to bring leptin back up, not even a little. That's not a refeed, in the sense that we are using it here. May have helped in other ways (psychological, which would have it's own effect on cortisol).

    That's all my brain has right now. Maybe @VintageFeline and I should combine our brains for the day to produce full answers.

    I nearly made that point but I think "Day 1" of refeed indicated there would be another. I definitely had another point but editing to remove the 1 day isn't enough point it flew out of my noggin'.

    I'm not sure how sensible combining our brains would be, either genius or the most terrible idea ever brought to thinking.

    Gawd, see, I didn't even take in the Day 1, somehow read it as a 1 Day. Brain has left the building!
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    anubis609 wrote: »
    maybyn wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    Today for the first time in my 91 days logging, I'm really hungry

    I've had my usual breakfast lunch and snack but have been hungry all day despite eating.

    will see what happens after dinner which is about 630 cals but I'm dreading being hungry afterwards

    any thoughts?

    FYI, I tried Day 1 of a refeed yesterday.

    I had aimed for maintenance but went over maintenance by 500 cals with 60c/30p/10f macros (so 2700 cals for the day) because I was hungry and did this as a deliberate choice.

    Did not seem to harm my progress at all because I was down by 0.22 pounds today.

    Caveat:
    - It might also have something to do with me being more relaxed in the last 2 weeks since I upped my cals to a 300 deficit (all the cortisol, leptin and stuff...)
    - It might also be my maintenance being higher than what I thought it was because I've been losing way faster than what I should have been on a 300 cal deficit (again, cortisol high/leptin low?? during the period when I was eating what I thought were my maintenance cals before)

    I'm not even going to pretend that I know anything!!

    Part of the thing with free meals, refeeds, and diet breaks is that unbeknownst to logic, is that cortisol (being a primary responder to stress), actually goes down when we relax - whether that trigger to relax is to go enjoy special occasions, celebrate something, deliberately say "ah screw it all to hell, I'm not even gonna track food today" etc., and the magical whoosh happens.

    In these cases, don't even question it. Just revel in the fact you had a relaxed day of eating, you lost weight, and you have a renewed outlook on dieting :smiley:

    QFT and pure awesomeness!
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
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    VintageFeline wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    CWShultz27105 wrote: »
    @VintageFeline - did somebody say "wabbits"? LOL! I actually like rabbit holes....the more winding and deep the better. My brain likes this stuff....and I absolutely love the discovery process. All of the neat little things that I find along this journey help me to fill other days with other discovery processes. Now, if I could only remember where I put my glasses!

    If you're truly inspired to delve into the wonderful world of biochemistry and physiological response, more power to you. It will take a while, but we've all been in your place at one point and just started with more lay friendly posts that progressively got more into academia. Think of it like progressive overload for your brain.

    And I feel like I have just scratched the surface. I've been watching and learning and reading slowly but surely for 2.5 years now when I started to seriously take an interest, remembering that biology was one of my two favourite subjects (English being the other, so I like to read, handy for this sort of thing). I wish I'd got into when I was dancing other than what we were taught in our anatomy/physiology classes which were pretty superficial.

    I know for damn sure I've just scratched the surface lol. The deeper I go, the more branches I discover to go down, then I have to backtrack and get lost again. I end up asking degree holders to break it down to me like I'm simple so I can get a re-introduction to learning about a metabolic pathway I saw in passing. Being a former nursing student, I paid barely any attention to A/P class since the prerequisite was just 101 and nothing in-depth. Which is why many medical professionals still know little more than the basics either. Not their fault, but that's how it is.
  • maybyn
    maybyn Posts: 233 Member
    edited October 2017
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    @VintageFeline @Nony_Mouse

    Oh ya, I forgot that 1 day does nothing to bring leptin back up. Yep, Day 2 of refeed is today (and to be on the safe side, I'm doing Day 3 as well).

    I think the whoosh might have been it. Certainly, in the past, each time I go through a cut, I always lose to where I need to be but always suffering throughout. I don't really monitor calories thereafter but eat for performance. I always thought training took away the last 2-3 pounds but dunno, maybe it was the whoosh that always did it in the past too?!!

    This time round, the whoosh certainly seems to be doing the same thing to get me close to my goal.
    anubis609 wrote: »
    maybyn wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    Today for the first time in my 91 days logging, I'm really hungry

    I've had my usual breakfast lunch and snack but have been hungry all day despite eating.

    will see what happens after dinner which is about 630 cals but I'm dreading being hungry afterwards

    any thoughts?

    FYI, I tried Day 1 of a refeed yesterday.

    I had aimed for maintenance but went over maintenance by 500 cals with 60c/30p/10f macros (so 2700 cals for the day) because I was hungry and did this as a deliberate choice.

    Did not seem to harm my progress at all because I was down by 0.22 pounds today.

    Caveat:
    - It might also have something to do with me being more relaxed in the last 2 weeks since I upped my cals to a 300 deficit (all the cortisol, leptin and stuff...)
    - It might also be my maintenance being higher than what I thought it was because I've been losing way faster than what I should have been on a 300 cal deficit (again, cortisol high/leptin low?? during the period when I was eating what I thought were my maintenance cals before)

    I'm not even going to pretend that I know anything!!

    Part of the thing with free meals, refeeds, and diet breaks is that unbeknownst to logic, is that cortisol (being a primary responder to stress), actually goes down when we relax - whether that trigger to relax is to go enjoy special occasions, celebrate something, deliberately say "ah screw it all to hell, I'm not even gonna track food today" etc., and the magical whoosh happens.

    In these cases, don't even question it. Just revel in the fact you had a relaxed day of eating, you lost weight, and you have a renewed outlook on dieting :smiley:

    Yes indeed and will definitely remember this for next year!


  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
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    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    rickinnercirclebet wrote: »
    So I had dinner and was still a bit hungry, so I had 100g of Fage 0% Fat Greek Yoghurt with a teaspoon of sugar for 20g of carbs and 11g protein

    it appears to have done the trick

    should note I walked for 90 minutes between breakfast and lunch carrying a large heavy rucksack, not sure if that has anything to do with it

    I mean yesterday I did X-trainer HIIT and heavy legs weights session... and I wasn't hungry all day

    gah no idea what's going on

    If we recall, the body does have delayed responses to stimuli. So a delayed response to a heavy training session isn't abnormal at all. Some people might feel ravenous the day of training, some might feel it the day after, others might not feel it until they've trained their *kitten* off for a week. While other people might not feel hungry after weight training, some others do; and the opposite, some people do not feel hungry after cardio, while others might go right to the buffet after an hour of running because they've stimulated hunger.

    Take the opportunity to study how your own body responds to various activity, stress, mood, etc. Hunger is just one cue that can have a multitude of reasons for why it's happening. If you really want to address hunger issues and are afraid of going ballistic with calories, then focus on protein as the primary macro of the meal and assess after if you're still hungry.

    thanks!

    really makes sense, I remember I was really hungry, much more than normal, when I woke up this morning and still was after breakfast

    I have been training pretty hard, especially legs day, for quite a few weeks but not been hungry after.

    I'll see how I go tomorrow and next day as I'm doing upper body weights

    really appreciate the insight

    No problem @rickinnercirclebet. My own personal observation with my response to training is that with larger muscle groups; i.e. lower body + back, at high volume or high intensity, I tend to be ravenously hungry the following day. Smaller muscle groups; i.e. isolation accessory work (biceps, triceps, shoulders) I'm generally okay the next day and hunger is manageable. Cardio completely does nothing for hunger, in fact it blunts it for me.

    So, see how you respond and just manage your overall weekly deficit as it fits. Whether you undulate days of higher feeding with lower feeding, the long-term average of energy balance is what counts towards a net loss or gain of weight/fat.
  • JaydedMiss
    JaydedMiss Posts: 4,286 Member
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    @VintageFeline i appreciate the effort of your post but im not sure i understand the point? i understand the concept. Was simply updating on what i settled in on, Hadnt intended to sound like i didnt understand the science im already aware i put it off to long, Thats why im doing it now best i can
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    VintageFeline wrote: »
    Also, the effects of adaptive thermogenesis are not permanent, even after a year of aggressive dieting so I wouldn't work on that premise either. Your BMR will recover quite easily when properly eating at maintenance.

    Yep, this is a really important point to make. How many posts do we see on the boards from people claiming to have 'broken their metabolism' either through an extremely restrictive diet years ago, or yo-yo dieting over the years? You don't even want to know some of the truly horrible things I have done to my body, even when I knew better (see: eating disorders aren't about food/thinness). My metabolism is just fine.
  • JaydedMiss
    JaydedMiss Posts: 4,286 Member
    edited October 2017
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    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    Also, the effects of adaptive thermogenesis are not permanent, even after a year of aggressive dieting so I wouldn't work on that premise either. Your BMR will recover quite easily when properly eating at maintenance.

    Yep, this is a really important point to make. How many posts do we see on the boards from people claiming to have 'broken their metabolism' either through an extremely restrictive diet years ago, or yo-yo dieting over the years? You don't even want to know some of the truly horrible things I have done to my body, even when I knew better (see: eating disorders aren't about food/thinness). My metabolism is just fine.

    I have PCOS and have been dieting for 18 months no break high deficit. I think its relatively fair for me to say i have a slowed metabolism, Your even admitting its a thing by quoting vintage. Not once did i panic about it or say it was permanent. This entire thread is literally about how to fix your hormones and stuff.

    But yes i agree with people panicking under stupid circumstances like "oh no i dieted for 2 weeks i -broke- my metabolism" is annoying XD
  • JaydedMiss
    JaydedMiss Posts: 4,286 Member
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    Side note. Mt sodium intake shot up a ton xD Been craving salt. My weights the same but i feel pregnant by bedtime with all the salt and extra food. Its kind of fun lol
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    JaydedMiss wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    Also, the effects of adaptive thermogenesis are not permanent, even after a year of aggressive dieting so I wouldn't work on that premise either. Your BMR will recover quite easily when properly eating at maintenance.

    Yep, this is a really important point to make. How many posts do we see on the boards from people claiming to have 'broken their metabolism' either through an extremely restrictive diet years ago, or yo-yo dieting over the years? You don't even want to know some of the truly horrible things I have done to my body, even when I knew better (see: eating disorders aren't about food/thinness). My metabolism is just fine.

    I have PCOS and have been dieting for 18 months no break high deficit. I think its relatively fair for me to say i have a slowed metabolism, Your even admitting its a thing by quoting vintage. Not once did i panic about it or say it was permanent. This entire thread is literally about how to fix your hormones and stuff.

    But yes i agree with people panicking under stupid circumstances like "oh no i dieted for 2 weeks i -broke- my metabolism" is annoying XD

    My response had absolutely nothing to do with you @JaydedMiss ;). It was a general statement for the masses, no doubt plenty of people reading this thread but not posting. Yes, right now you will have some metabolic adaptation going on (beyond that expected with just a lower weight), and yes, you understand that it's not permanent.
  • JaydedMiss
    JaydedMiss Posts: 4,286 Member
    edited October 2017
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    VintageFeline wrote: »
    JaydedMiss wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    Also, the effects of adaptive thermogenesis are not permanent, even after a year of aggressive dieting so I wouldn't work on that premise either. Your BMR will recover quite easily when properly eating at maintenance.

    Yep, this is a really important point to make. How many posts do we see on the boards from people claiming to have 'broken their metabolism' either through an extremely restrictive diet years ago, or yo-yo dieting over the years? You don't even want to know some of the truly horrible things I have done to my body, even when I knew better (see: eating disorders aren't about food/thinness). My metabolism is just fine.

    I have PCOS and have been dieting for 18 months no break high deficit. I think its relatively fair for me to say i have a slowed metabolism, Your even admitting its a thing by quoting vintage. Not once did i panic about it or say it was permanent. This entire thread is literally about how to fix your hormones and stuff.

    But yes i agree with people panicking under stupid circumstances like "oh no i dieted for 2 weeks i -broke- my metabolism" is annoying XD

    There was no derision intended, you expressed you thought you'd slowed your metabolism and thus didn't want to eat as much as various things (Fitbit, calculators or whatever) were telling you, I was merely reinforcing that it wasn't necessary to be very conservative with your numbers and that it would self rectify pretty quickly as long as you didn't remain under-eating.

    I don't see where trying to be helpful is insulting in any way. It's encouragement to keep on in the direction you're going.

    Plus, others will read this and more is always better on the information front.

    Who said anything about insulting :o? Sorry if i said somethign that made you think i was mad or something, Was just confused :p

    Clearly me explaining my thought process was taken wrong- Regret- Thanks for trying . I didnt say that I SLOWED it. It naturally slowed through the dieting my glycogen and hormones have definately tanked, And with PCOS chances are its naturally already a bit slower.

    Thanks for the help but please dont hang onto small things i said :)

    2000 feels like im eating a ton. Its difficult xD in a weird way though, My appetites been huge thats why i decided to do the break i finally felt the impact of my dieting. I didnt really think of new people reading my post, Tailored it towards the people i was speaking with a few days ago here. I had expressed the desire to work on getting myself in a beter place, before disordered thinking came up. Transition towards maintenance and fixing my hunger/hormones/mindset. 2000-2100 is my reasonable beginning point and feels to me like plenty based on sort of what i do/where im coming from. I could easily eat more calories im a hungry girl lately but since i have no idea what im actually burning I simply had to guess. And as im begining to feel beter already i think i made a good guess :3

    Ill be going back to trying to lose a few more pounds hopefully once my hunger relaxes and my energy levels restore and then transition into maintenance hopefulyl a little more informed on what my maintenance is and with a beter mindset once im sure after 2 weeks of this i wont gain- And if i do ill know to eat less, Or if i lose i eat more.

    Its part refeed part diet break part maintenance test
  • JaydedMiss
    JaydedMiss Posts: 4,286 Member
    edited October 2017
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    Plus, Yum donuts. The donuts the only thing iv been eating i dont know the calories of but i guestimated it as 370 based on a normal apple fritter and adding for the filling and coating ..And the other donuts top calories...and its worth every calorie when i have so many extra to play with xD
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
    edited October 2017
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    JaydedMiss wrote: »
    Side note. Mt sodium intake shot up a ton xD Been craving salt. My weights the same but i feel pregnant by bedtime with all the salt and extra food. Its kind of fun lol

    Sodium is an under appreciated nutrient that gets a lot of flack for correlations that are misinterpreted. Usually it's because high sodium is associated with refined and processed foods that contribute to mortality rates, when really, if we were to eat a whole food diet, sodium would be lacking, and from experience, getting dizzy from just standing up with chronically low blood pressure (from being emaciated at my lowest weight) was horrendous. So I naturally craved salt, similar to your craving - though, our situations may be different.

    What I'm trying to say is salt/sodium is really friggin' important lol.

    To the other comments, I think it was all just supplementary to what was being [re]stated. Generalized statements are frequently made for others to read in case it so happens to apply, but not always directed toward an individual.

    Just to exemplify the dynamic adaptation of metabolism, I'm somewhat lean 5'9" @ 175lbs, ~18% bf (visual estimation), my normal deficit cycle is a psmf 4-5 days out of the week (1000-1200kcal) with a refeed/spike day on the weekend (~3500-4000kcal) with another day or two at or just below maintenance (2200-2600kcal), then rinse and repeat for 4-8 weeks, followed by a diet break for 1-2 weeks. Body recomp goals are being met, strength is tracking along relatively well, energy levels and murderous intent have an inverse relationship the longer it goes on, so before it gets bad, I go on a diet break (｡◕‿◕｡)

    ETA: for the first 1.5 years of my initial weight loss period, I slammed total kcal down to 700-1000 per day (not following a certain macro ratio and protein was horribly low), almost everyday until the bulk of my 130lbs was lost.. realizing I lost muscle, I went back to maintenance eating for my weight.. gained some back, maintained 185-190 for the duration of my engagement. Once that went away, so did any excess fat I gained during that time. Now, I'm recomping (small periods of bulking and cutting for fat loss, not necessarily scale weight loss), with the above eating schedule and lifting heavy weight.

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