Of refeeds and diet breaks
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »I thought I'd chuck the link to the discussion we had a few weeks ago about the MATADOR study in here: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10604391/intermittent-vs-continuous-weight-loss/p1
It crossed my mind to do that but I didn't cuz this is your thread!0 -
CynthiasChoice wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »I thought I'd chuck the link to the discussion we had a few weeks ago about the MATADOR study in here: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10604391/intermittent-vs-continuous-weight-loss/p1
It crossed my mind to do that but I didn't cuz this is your thread!
It's everyone's thread
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VintageFeline wrote: »So I've been going through my numbers for the last 2.5 years, which by the way is a very head hurty endeavor, and it would appear my TDEE is higher than I thought. Much higher. Because if my numbers are correct (and I went through them several times with randomised checks of random weeks to check everything was logged correctly with food and exercise with no wacky numbers) then I have lost 3 x times the amount I should have and I was significantly less compliant than I thought. Which would be accounted for by the fact I was under-eating and so had weeks where I would eat what i thought was maintenance or would have really high days.
I am trying to wrap my head around it because it doesn't feel possible my TDEE is 3-500 calories higher than it should be. Possibly accounted for in part by higher lean mass than the average female and higher NEAT than I thought just from pottering round my flat (I really genuinely don't get out much, I'm anxious agoraphobic reclusive weirdo).
And this year I have had even higher deficits than I should have for my closeness to goal and those losses have actually been smaller. Possible I am especially sensitive to downregulation of hormones and NEAT? Nony will tell you, my head really really hurts. I'm still doubting it's true.
That said, new tracker is giving me quite a lot more calories than my previous two so could well be possible. We shall have to see!
Being formerly obese, my maintenance is generally on the low end, which sucks, but that's the way it goes. TDEE is a moving target on a daily basis, so trying to be precise is going to be a hassle. But just to give a rough estimate for the average person according to Lyle based on his most recent injury book TDEE = RMR * Activity multiplier ( * Stress factor for injuries).
Rough RMR estimate would be body weight * 10-11 (10 for females, 11 for males), but for completeness use this: https://wpcalc.com/en/mifflin-st-jeor/
Activity multiplier ( + Stress factor):
Anyone trying to calculate or factor in NEAT on a daily basis is going to have wild shifts in accuracy simply due to the relative needs of the day (though activity trackers do help with providing a more accurate estimate), but this is why Lyle just leaves NEAT out of the equation and just includes it in general activity.
That said, based on real world application, my personal maintenance is generally around 2100-2200kcal/day, factoring in former obesity, a typical 9-5 desk job, some fashion of metabolic or resistance training >30+ minutes, 5-7 days/week. That and diet style does play a relative role in caloric needs. Being generally low carb puts me in the lower range of maintenance as well. Carbs are a bit entropic in terms of their usage and storage, so more calories are needed to utilize them as the primary macro in a standard diet.
So, it would usually be advisable to see a weekly average range (3-day minimum) to see where weight is shifting, or if it's stable.
But if you're unintentionally losing weight @VintageFeline, then definitely, real world application might put you higher in terms of TDEE for whatever reason.
How much do you weigh and how tall are you? I am 5'11, 35, 175, desk job and lift 5x/cardio 1x per week. And wven when i was 220, my maintenace was 3k.
We’re almost the same, except you have a couple more inches in height to play with lol. I’m 5’9”, 35, hovering around 175 (with wild swings in either direction depending on weekend feeds and the 3-4 day depletion that follows), and visual estimation of body fat around 16-18% depending on the day.
I blew right through the 200s coming from an extremely diabetic 330 following a severely reduced calorie intake, and had to recover when I was an emaciated, skinny-fat guy at 168, but reversed diabetes and all metabolic risk factors.
I maintained around 185-190 for the length of my engagement - about 5.5 years, no specific diet other than protein focused, lower carb mixed meals, and since I was mostly eyeballing everything, I can only guesstimate my average intake was about 2500 maybe? If the scale tipped past 190, I’d restrict calories to 1600-1800 for a few weeks, throw in some calisthenics and tennis, and be back to not counting.
Two years ago I noticed fasting glucose was steadily creeping up, so after my engagement dissolved, I went full keto for a little over a year (reduced carbs to <30g but kept fat intake within reason, and maintained protein at about 120g on average), minding macros, food quality, nutrient density, etc., and just becoming entrenched in biochemistry, metabolism, fatty acid regulation, nutrient partitioning, and mitochondrial health.
Long story made less long, I went through the entire cycle of disrupting metabolic response from one extreme to the other, found out why manipulating macros causes different physiologic processes to respond in certain ways, and came to the conclusion that energy balance and activity dictates most things ever discussed anywhere across the history of nutrition and disease. Now I’m a dietary agnostic, recovering from substance abuse addiction and ED, unmedicated bipolar II hypomanic (partly why Lyle and I get along
) rando online entity with a personal preference for nutrient density and lowish carbs (in regard to glucose management). 8 -
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We’re almost the same, except you have a couple more inches in height to play with lol. I’m 5’9”, 35, hovering around 175 (with wild swings in either direction depending on weekend feeds and the 3-4 day depletion that follows), and visual estimation of body fat around 16-18% depending on the day.
I blew right through the 200s coming from an extremely diabetic 330 following a severely reduced calorie intake, and had to recover when I was an emaciated, skinny-fat guy at 168, but reversed diabetes and all metabolic risk factors.
I maintained around 185-190 for the length of my engagement - about 5.5 years, no specific diet other than protein focused, lower carb mixed meals, and since I was mostly eyeballing everything, I can only guesstimate my average intake was about 2500 maybe? If the scale tipped past 190, I’d restrict calories to 1600-1800 for a few weeks, throw in some calisthenics and tennis, and be back to not counting.
Two years ago I noticed fasting glucose was steadily creeping up, so after my engagement dissolved, I went full keto for a little over a year (reduced carbs to <30g but kept fat intake within reason, and maintained protein at about 120g on average), minding macros, food quality, nutrient density, etc., and just becoming entrenched in biochemistry, metabolism, fatty acid regulation, nutrient partitioning, and mitochondrial health.
Long story made less long, I went through the entire cycle of disrupting metabolic response from one extreme to the other, found out why manipulating macros causes different physiologic processes to respond in certain ways, and came to the conclusion that energy balance and activity dictates most things ever discussed anywhere across the history of nutrition and disease. Now I’m a dietary agnostic, recovering from substance abuse addiction and ED, unmedicated bipolar II hypomanic (partly why Lyle and I get along) rando online entity with a personal preference for nutrient density and lowish carbs (in regard to glucose management).
Wow, that is a bit crazy. Thanks for sharing.
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I woke up having an epiphany that I did indeed math wrong. So that's the bad news. The good news is that I do still seem to have about 150 extra calories than would generally be expected from my numbers. So still good news!
And I am cruising into my weekend refeed fairly painlessly so far. I think because I naturally lean towards having a day or two higher formalising it and maintaining a slightly higher deficit during the week to allow for it is working for me psychologically. But that's a bit premature really. Ask me again in 8 weeks.5 -
Didn't see it mentioned in discussions regarding estimating TDEE here.
Sounds like some good historical records available. Add a column for your personal activity multiplier, perhaps season.
Estimated TDEE / BMR for the weight at the time = activity multiplier.
That can be used for current weight and seasons to hone in closer to current TDEE potential.
I've found many through the years have great records - but seasons and decent weight changes are hard to apply past TDEE to current needs.
Just a thought.0 -
I'm going to read this whole thing, but haven't and have a question. I noticed you mentioned podcasts are available on itunes. Do you know if they are available for Android? And I apologize if this has been asked and answered.2
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We’re almost the same, except you have a couple more inches in height to play with lol. I’m 5’9”, 35, hovering around 175 (with wild swings in either direction depending on weekend feeds and the 3-4 day depletion that follows), and visual estimation of body fat around 16-18% depending on the day.
I blew right through the 200s coming from an extremely diabetic 330 following a severely reduced calorie intake, and had to recover when I was an emaciated, skinny-fat guy at 168, but reversed diabetes and all metabolic risk factors.
I maintained around 185-190 for the length of my engagement - about 5.5 years, no specific diet other than protein focused, lower carb mixed meals, and since I was mostly eyeballing everything, I can only guesstimate my average intake was about 2500 maybe? If the scale tipped past 190, I’d restrict calories to 1600-1800 for a few weeks, throw in some calisthenics and tennis, and be back to not counting.
Two years ago I noticed fasting glucose was steadily creeping up, so after my engagement dissolved, I went full keto for a little over a year (reduced carbs to <30g but kept fat intake within reason, and maintained protein at about 120g on average), minding macros, food quality, nutrient density, etc., and just becoming entrenched in biochemistry, metabolism, fatty acid regulation, nutrient partitioning, and mitochondrial health.
Long story made less long, I went through the entire cycle of disrupting metabolic response from one extreme to the other, found out why manipulating macros causes different physiologic processes to respond in certain ways, and came to the conclusion that energy balance and activity dictates most things ever discussed anywhere across the history of nutrition and disease. Now I’m a dietary agnostic, recovering from substance abuse addiction and ED, unmedicated bipolar II hypomanic (partly why Lyle and I get along) rando online entity with a personal preference for nutrient density and lowish carbs (in regard to glucose management).
Wow, that is a bit crazy. Thanks for sharing.
Lol thanks @Nony_Mouse and @psuLemon
I realized I just added more than necessary, but as I was typing I had this infomercial moment of "but wait, there's more!"
I ramble on when the mania kicks in ♪~ ᕕ(ᐛ)ᕗVintageFeline wrote: »I woke up having an epiphany that I did indeed math wrong. So that's the bad news. The good news is that I do still seem to have about 150 extra calories than would generally be expected from my numbers. So still good news!
And I am cruising into my weekend refeed fairly painlessly so far. I think because I naturally lean towards having a day or two higher formalising it and maintaining a slightly higher deficit during the week to allow for it is working for me psychologically. But that's a bit premature really. Ask me again in 8 weeks.
That's practically my strategy going into the weekend refeeds as well. If it's working, that's all that matters
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Tacklewasher wrote: »I'm going to read this whole thing, but haven't and have a question. I noticed you mentioned podcasts are available on itunes. Do you know if they are available for Android? And I apologize if this has been asked and answered.
Not sure if it's on Android, but it's usually dependent on the podcast host's choice of upload. This is link to the refeeds revisited podcast: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/podcasts/revive-stronger-podcast-refeeds-revisited.html/
And if you wanted to listen to any others he's done: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/category/podcasts/
Some of the others do include Android links, like those with Danny Lennon.1 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »I'm going to read this whole thing, but haven't and have a question. I noticed you mentioned podcasts are available on itunes. Do you know if they are available for Android? And I apologize if this has been asked and answered.
Not sure if it's on Android, but it's usually dependent on the podcast host's choice of upload. This is link to the refeeds revisited podcast: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/podcasts/revive-stronger-podcast-refeeds-revisited.html/
And if you wanted to listen to any others he's done: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/category/podcasts/
Some of the others do include Android links, like those with Danny Lennon.
Thanks. Looks like it's youtube for me 2 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »I'm going to read this whole thing, but haven't and have a question. I noticed you mentioned podcasts are available on itunes. Do you know if they are available for Android? And I apologize if this has been asked and answered.
Not sure if it's on Android, but it's usually dependent on the podcast host's choice of upload. This is link to the refeeds revisited podcast: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/podcasts/revive-stronger-podcast-refeeds-revisited.html/
And if you wanted to listen to any others he's done: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/category/podcasts/
Some of the others do include Android links, like those with Danny Lennon.
Thanks. Looks like it's youtube for me
A quick Google says it's doable, esp if you have Dropbox or Google Drive on your phone and laptop/desktop, download to there then play, I think. Only just up and one coffee in, so I haven't had a play with it yet. I also need to remember my Apple id in order to download
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Nony_Mouse wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »I'm going to read this whole thing, but haven't and have a question. I noticed you mentioned podcasts are available on itunes. Do you know if they are available for Android? And I apologize if this has been asked and answered.
Not sure if it's on Android, but it's usually dependent on the podcast host's choice of upload. This is link to the refeeds revisited podcast: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/podcasts/revive-stronger-podcast-refeeds-revisited.html/
And if you wanted to listen to any others he's done: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/category/podcasts/
Some of the others do include Android links, like those with Danny Lennon.
Thanks. Looks like it's youtube for me
A quick Google says it's doable, esp if you have Dropbox or Google Drive on your phone and laptop/desktop, download to there then play, I think. Only just up and one coffee in, so I haven't had a play with it yet. I also need to remember my Apple id in order to download
I'd have to get an iTunes account. Youtube will be fine. Just take a couple of days to get through.1 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »I'm going to read this whole thing, but haven't and have a question. I noticed you mentioned podcasts are available on itunes. Do you know if they are available for Android? And I apologize if this has been asked and answered.
Not sure if it's on Android, but it's usually dependent on the podcast host's choice of upload. This is link to the refeeds revisited podcast: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/podcasts/revive-stronger-podcast-refeeds-revisited.html/
And if you wanted to listen to any others he's done: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/category/podcasts/
Some of the others do include Android links, like those with Danny Lennon.
Thanks. Looks like it's youtube for me
A quick Google says it's doable, esp if you have Dropbox or Google Drive on your phone and laptop/desktop, download to there then play, I think. Only just up and one coffee in, so I haven't had a play with it yet. I also need to remember my Apple id in order to download
I'd have to get an iTunes account. Youtube will be fine. Just take a couple of days to get through.
Until you spot another you want to listen to, and another, and another, and another...:p
I often listen to them when I'm cooking and/or eating dinner, but I'm single, so I get to do stuff like that 2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »I'm going to read this whole thing, but haven't and have a question. I noticed you mentioned podcasts are available on itunes. Do you know if they are available for Android? And I apologize if this has been asked and answered.
Not sure if it's on Android, but it's usually dependent on the podcast host's choice of upload. This is link to the refeeds revisited podcast: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/podcasts/revive-stronger-podcast-refeeds-revisited.html/
And if you wanted to listen to any others he's done: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/category/podcasts/
Some of the others do include Android links, like those with Danny Lennon.
Thanks. Looks like it's youtube for me
A quick Google says it's doable, esp if you have Dropbox or Google Drive on your phone and laptop/desktop, download to there then play, I think. Only just up and one coffee in, so I haven't had a play with it yet. I also need to remember my Apple id in order to download
I'd have to get an iTunes account. Youtube will be fine. Just take a couple of days to get through.
Until you spot another you want to listen to, and another, and another, and another...:p
I often listen to them when I'm cooking and/or eating dinner, but I'm single, so I get to do stuff like that
Ah, yes.. the youtube rabbit hole lol1 -
Since we're doing maths things, I toted up my deficit since diet break to see how it gelled with scale loss. Deficit (~6790) says 1.94 lbs, scale says 1.97 lb (actually it says 900g, same thing). So, bang on really. Yay, science! My feet are still puffy, so there's some fluid retention there somewhere, but meh.8
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That's excellent. Proof that science is legit (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧ ✧ﾟ･: *ヽ(◕ヮ◕ヽ)2
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It's Friday here in the middle of Middle Earth, and I am all prepped for Refeed Round Three. Hiking food in the cupboard, though I have scaled back from the all day hike I was eying up the other day, reminding myself that doing an all day hike I wasn't conditioned for is what landed me with months of rehabbing a bung knee. And even scaled back hike may not happen. I did the 'nice' end of the track I'm planning to do, and it was a mud bath up the top after overnight rain, so the ridge line will undoubtably be worse. I'll likely do the nice end again tomorrow to see how well it's dried out, and that will give me a rough idea of the condition of the rest. I'm not adverse to getting me or my shoes muddy, but it does increase the risk of injury, and makes for slow going.5
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Refeeding I find to be a fascinating topic that I have only recently discovered but which has resonated with a personal experience that I had not terribly long ago. I have only been on maintenance a very short time, but like 5-6 weeks ago when I was still cutting like a madman I remember one Sunday after my long run I just snapped. I had been going pretty hardcore for a solid month and I finally just gave up on tracking that day and went to town on food. I would guess I was probably in the ballpark of at least 5-6000 calories that day (I wish I would of tracked it now).
Anyway, as you might expect I felt guilty as hell the next day, so I went right back to grindstone. Work, run, eat, sleep, repeat. The following Sunday when I went to weight I figured it was going to be a "treading water" week since I had screwed up so hardcore that one day. Nope. I dropped 2 and a half pounds which was more than normal even on balls to the wall weeks. At the time I blew it off as an aberration, as I have had plenty of weird things happen over the course of my tenure in this game, but after hearing about this concept it does now make me pause for thought.2 -
JustRobby1 wrote: »Refeeding I find to be a fascinating topic that I have only recently discovered but which has resonated with a personal experience that I had not terribly long ago. I have only been on maintenance a very short time, but like 5-6 weeks ago when I was still cutting like a madman I remember one Sunday after my long run I just snapped. I had been going pretty hardcore for a solid month and I finally just gave up on tracking that day and went to town on food. I would guess I was probably in the ballpark of at least 5-6000 calories that day (I wish I would of tracked it now).
Anyway, as you might expect I felt guilty as hell the next day, so I went right back to grindstone. Work, run, eat, sleep, repeat. The following Sunday when I went to weight I figured it was going to be a "treading water" week since I had screwed up so hardcore that one day. Nope. I dropped 2 and a half pounds which was more than normal even on balls to the wall weeks. At the time I blew it off as an aberration, as I have had plenty of weird things happen over the course of my tenure in this game, but after hearing about this concept it does now make me pause for thought.
Yep, this is that one trick that will make weight loss easier 5
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