Of refeeds and diet breaks
Replies
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@livingleanlivingclean oh girl I can’t even imagine! I am so amazed by the things you can do with your body! No WayI could have the determination you very obviously have! No I’m maggiland unattainable means flat stomach strong legs and obvious arm muscles. I prefer my couch to a gym and the softness of my body shows it! No need to apologize at all I’m flipping flattered that anyone could even think me capable of such things!0
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maggibailey wrote: »@livingleanlivingclean oh girl I can’t even imagine! I am so amazed by the things you can do with your body! No WayI could have the determination you very obviously have! No I’m maggiland unattainable means flat stomach strong legs and obvious arm muscles. I prefer my couch to a gym and the softness of my body shows it! No need to apologize at all I’m flipping flattered that anyone could even think me capable of such things!
@maggibailey - strong legs and obvious arm muscles aren't that hard, definitely not unattainable, and you don't need to go to the gym to do it
. I am gym adverse and I have reasonable leg strength and visible arm muscles, both of which are on the improve. Flat stomach, depends which bit we're looking at 
I definitely don't have the determination for competitor level physique though. Not even enough to get to visible abs just once. I know they're there, being able to see them won't make them any stronger!7 -
I'm really good at jumping down stairs tho lol.
As much as I ate to say it these past few years haven't been a waste. I've learned so much. I am more patient than I used to be, believe it or not.
And it summarizes life well: we can't go back. We do the best we can until we know better. I hope I can use what I've learned to help others, even if it's just my children. My parents couldn't because they didn't know and they are still in their lifelong yo yo dieting and food fads phase. I can do better now.
Also, @anubis609 thanks for the sohee video. Excellent! I'm going to share with my feed. I used to follow her on Instagram until I got fed up and unfollowed all fitness accounts (probably need that living in shades of grey advice she gave
)
You’re very welcome. I identify with Sohee because she’s specializing in the psychological aspect of dieting in accordance with lifetime sustainability, using her own issues she’s had to deal with as a foundation. Plus, sharing a similar cultural background of what is considered acceptably healthy is contradicted by the older Asian generation of force feeding relatives and guests lol. To put it bluntly, they’ll flat out tell you you look like you’re getting fat while simultaneously pressuring you to finish the food on your plate to show gratitude for their effort in cooking. So it’s not hard to imagine a lot of Asians tend to develop ED and body dysmorphia.
I identify with Lyle and Aadam because they have a comprehensively direct approach to nutrition and fitness... plus, we all share similar personality traits, so dicking around in conversation with them outside of the subject is always entertaining
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maggibailey wrote: »@livingleanlivingclean oh girl I can’t even imagine! I am so amazed by the things you can do with your body! No WayI could have the determination you very obviously have! No I’m maggiland unattainable means flat stomach strong legs and obvious arm muscles. I prefer my couch to a gym and the softness of my body shows it! No need to apologize at all I’m flipping flattered that anyone could even think me capable of such things!
I was actually thinking the same as @livingleanlivingclean that you might have been aiming at that level of physique. I’ll support her sentiment that it comes at a cost, though it is technically attainable. Being female I would say it actually comes with a greater risk, given your entire hormonal panel is on the line. Guys get shafted too but it’s not nearly as bad *in context*
But if improving overall body composition is your goal, that’s certainly attainable and realistic, relative to overall health.1 -
I work in the convention industry so I’m square in the middle of our busiest season. I’m going to give myself through then to decide if it’s actually something I care enough to be passionate about. Because if not I know myself and if I’m not I’ll lose interest fast. I could start reading up on recomp though. Does one usually start that at the low end of your goal weight? 0
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Of course none of this is to say you need to do anything strength training-wise if you don't want to Maggie! We all have different personal aesthetics, even if we admire different aesthetics in others (even aside for what it takes to get there, I don't actually aspire to the competitor physique for myself). Just wanted to let you know improved body composition is within reach for all of us. I went from chubby, exhausted and constantly fatigued three years ago to that nutter in my profile pic doing eagle on a railing with a huge drop behind me (and that takes both physical and mental strength, believe me!). Should probably update that photo, since there's 6 kg less of me, but I like it... 8
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maggibailey wrote: »I work in the convention industry so I’m square in the middle of our busiest season. I’m going to give myself through then to decide if it’s actually something I care enough to be passionate about. Because if not I know myself and if I’m not I’ll lose interest fast. I could start reading up on recomp though. Does one usually start that at the low end of your goal weight?
Strength training start sooner rather than later (though totally get the busy thing). You will build strength at a deficit, but recomp is about losing fat while building muscle, so that comes once you're eating at maintenance. Your muscles will 'firm up' if you strength train while losing weight though, and you will retain more of your existing muscle mass.1 -
Oh and find something you love, you're more likely to stick with it. There are lots of ways to get some basic beginner level strength work. When I was losing a couple of years ago, all I did was yoga (obviously not just stretchy stuff).2
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I have done a lot of lifting in the past
. The difference is I was a stay at home mom living in fort Bragg 5 gyms within a mile of my house. But I do feel like going back now I’ll be right back at the beginning, and back to feeling uncomfortable on the weight floor, so I’ll welcome ALL the tips if I go through with it. 0 -
maggibailey wrote: »I work in the convention industry so I’m square in the middle of our busiest season. I’m going to give myself through then to decide if it’s actually something I care enough to be passionate about. Because if not I know myself and if I’m not I’ll lose interest fast. I could start reading up on recomp though. Does one usually start that at the low end of your goal weight?
Another long topic, though the useful details are upfront again - more application the more you are willing to wade through.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10177803/recomposition-maintaining-weight-while-losing-fat4 -
maggibailey wrote: »I have done a lot of lifting in the past. The difference is I was a stay at home mom living in fort Bragg 5 gyms within a mile of my house. But I do feel like going back now I’ll be right back at the beginning, and back to feeling uncomfortable on the weight floor, so I’ll welcome ALL the tips if I go through with it.
You might start at the beginning just to see where you’re at strength wise, but if you have experience lifting the past, you don’t lose the satellite cells gained from those days. In other words, muscle memory is a thing, and coming back to lifting after a layoff will progress you faster through a program than if you were to start fresh as a new lifter. You essentially end up to roughly around the same level of strength you were before you took time off.
In terms of a recomp, coming back after a layoff is like the best of both worlds: you’re in the “magic” arena to see gains quickly while losing some body fat + the past experience of lifting to get you through faster than normal.
Once you’ve arrived at the point where neuromuscular adaptation slows, you continue the recomp by eating at or around maintenance and following the scheme of progressive overload, either by adding more weight to the bar, increasing reps/sets, manipulating time under tension, etc but the basic rule is that you’re going to be adding more volume over time.
Just like diet, if you’ve achieved a level you want to maintain, then you do the same volume to retain that level of strength/aesthetics.
I know I’m using lifting as the example but I started it so now I’m on a roll lol, though this applies to any activity you choose to do. Your physique will reflect the activity you’re doing. Runners look different from sprinters. Yogis look different from gymnasts. Football players look different from soccer players. Bodybuilders look different from powerlifters who look different from Olympic weightlifters... Couch surfers look different from actual surfers. You get the idea.
But do check out the thread from @heybales it’s solid and serves as a FAQ for in-depth recomp 6 -
maggibailey wrote: »I work in the convention industry so I’m square in the middle of our busiest season. I’m going to give myself through then to decide if it’s actually something I care enough to be passionate about. Because if not I know myself and if I’m not I’ll lose interest fast. I could start reading up on recomp though. Does one usually start that at the low end of your goal weight?
Another long topic, though the useful details are upfront again - more application the more you are willing to wade through.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10177803/recomposition-maintaining-weight-while-losing-fat
Honestly, I would love to switch to recomp now but still a little bit too overfat really (about 25/26% at an eyeball/mirror test). Once I get into the healthy BMI (10lbs, come on!) I will lower my deficit and recomp, I'm pretty excited for it.
And recomp is a great suggestion for someone happy where they are but could be happier.
I don't lift heavy and I most definitely don't go to a gym but the strength that I do do with my adjustable dumbbells and bodyweight I really really enjoy. It's definitely finding what you like and if you even want to do it.5 -
Oh and I too am so ready for refeed! But this week hasn't been horrible. Once I got my head in the game properly I've been fine with the slightly higher deficits to allow for weekend goodness. Lebkuchen season has arrived and refeeds are the perfect excuse to indulge their carby gingery, spiced, deliciousness. Gawd bless you Aldi/Germany.6
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VintageFeline wrote: »
Honestly, I would love to switch to recomp now but still a little bit too overfat really (about 25/26% at an eyeball/mirror test). Once I get into the healthy BMI (10lbs, come on!) I will lower my deficit and recomp, I'm pretty excited for it.
And recomp is a great suggestion for someone happy where they are but could be happier.
I don't lift heavy and I most definitely don't go to a gym but the strength that I do do with my adjustable dumbbells and bodyweight I really really enjoy. It's definitely finding what you like and if you even want to do it.
@VintageFeline I am waiting to recomp as well. I have about 7 lbs until Healthy BMI but at an estimated 30% bf (estimated by someone else) I may need to lose more before recomping.0 -
VintageFeline wrote: »maggibailey wrote: »I work in the convention industry so I’m square in the middle of our busiest season. I’m going to give myself through then to decide if it’s actually something I care enough to be passionate about. Because if not I know myself and if I’m not I’ll lose interest fast. I could start reading up on recomp though. Does one usually start that at the low end of your goal weight?
Another long topic, though the useful details are upfront again - more application the more you are willing to wade through.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10177803/recomposition-maintaining-weight-while-losing-fat
Honestly, I would love to switch to recomp now but still a little bit too overfat really (about 25/26% at an eyeball/mirror test). Once I get into the healthy BMI (10lbs, come on!) I will lower my deficit and recomp, I'm pretty excited for it.
And recomp is a great suggestion for someone happy where they are but could be happier.
I don't lift heavy and I most definitely don't go to a gym but the strength that I do do with my adjustable dumbbells and bodyweight I really really enjoy. It's definitely finding what you like and if you even want to do it.
You can definitely recomp with that body fat range. In fact, I worked with a woman who recomped from 26% down to 14% in 2 years. But it really depends on how fast you want to be real lean. If leanness is more important now, than cutting a bit more might be beneficial.1 -
So this week has certainly been ... interesting. I've still got that cyclical water weight going on (I was saying to my mother that it is incredibly unfair that no one considers me to have a true period right now... but I get the water retention fun with it), and it's been bobbling a bit, but still coming in at a pound lower than last month. It should be off on Tuesday -- it's usually 10 days for me -- and I'll be eager to see what happens then.
Right now, my priority is still getting back to where I was before the half in May. Because I don't *care* that my measurements are smaller -- it does feel like the one saving grace right now is that some of the clothes I bought last fall are slightly big -- but a 5 percent weight increase since April is unacceptable (I don't care that it's supposedly water, and I don't care that the measurements are smaller -- would *ANYONE* be OK with the scale going up 5 percent?). The dietitian is aware that this is my primary concern -- but she'd also warned me that as we increased sodium, that I wasn't going to like what the scale says. And oh, was she right. Fortunately, my therapist also flatly said that it's OK for me to be angry right now -- because I am.
After we figure out the sodium thing, I feel like one thing the dietitian and I need to work on is actually having me be *consistent* in my days while concurrently getting this 5 percent increase off. Because while yes, there are days like yesterday where I'm eating at maintenance, then there are days where it's lower -- and I feel like those days contribute to the maintenance days where I'm eating at maintenance entirely because I feel like I'm going to gnaw my arm off. And that's not helping to fix the increase problem.0 -
VintageFeline wrote: »maggibailey wrote: »I work in the convention industry so I’m square in the middle of our busiest season. I’m going to give myself through then to decide if it’s actually something I care enough to be passionate about. Because if not I know myself and if I’m not I’ll lose interest fast. I could start reading up on recomp though. Does one usually start that at the low end of your goal weight?
Another long topic, though the useful details are upfront again - more application the more you are willing to wade through.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10177803/recomposition-maintaining-weight-while-losing-fat
Honestly, I would love to switch to recomp now but still a little bit too overfat really (about 25/26% at an eyeball/mirror test). Once I get into the healthy BMI (10lbs, come on!) I will lower my deficit and recomp, I'm pretty excited for it.
And recomp is a great suggestion for someone happy where they are but could be happier.
I don't lift heavy and I most definitely don't go to a gym but the strength that I do do with my adjustable dumbbells and bodyweight I really really enjoy. It's definitely finding what you like and if you even want to do it.
You can definitely recomp with that body fat range. In fact, I worked with a woman who recomped from 26% down to 14% in 2 years. But it really depends on how fast you want to be real lean. If leanness is more important now, than cutting a bit more might be beneficial.
Yeah I could but as you say, impatience wants to get a bit lower first. Being 35 things aren't as tight as I'd like them to be if I was this weight/BF and 20! Ah vanity. There's also a good chance I'm eyeballing myself through vanity's eyes too and my BF is a bit higher than 26%, though not significantly so.0 -
collectingblues wrote: »So this week has certainly been ... interesting. I've still got that cyclical water weight going on (I was saying to my mother that it is incredibly unfair that no one considers me to have a true period right now... but I get the water retention fun with it), and it's been bobbling a bit, but still coming in at a pound lower than last month. It should be off on Tuesday -- it's usually 10 days for me -- and I'll be eager to see what happens then.
Right now, my priority is still getting back to where I was before the half in May. Because I don't *care* that my measurements are smaller -- it does feel like the one saving grace right now is that some of the clothes I bought last fall are slightly big -- but a 5 percent weight increase since April is unacceptable (I don't care that it's supposedly water, and I don't care that the measurements are smaller -- would *ANYONE* be OK with the scale going up 5 percent?). The dietitian is aware that this is my primary concern -- but she'd also warned me that as we increased sodium, that I wasn't going to like what the scale says. And oh, was she right. Fortunately, my therapist also flatly said that it's OK for me to be angry right now -- because I am.
After we figure out the sodium thing, I feel like one thing the dietitian and I need to work on is actually having me be *consistent* in my days while concurrently getting this 5 percent increase off. Because while yes, there are days like yesterday where I'm eating at maintenance, then there are days where it's lower -- and I feel like those days contribute to the maintenance days where I'm eating at maintenance entirely because I feel like I'm going to gnaw my arm off. And that's not helping to fix the increase problem.
Honestly, if I was smaller at a higher scale weight I'd be pretty delighted. The heavier you are the more you get to eat. So aesthetically pleasing to myself and heavy? Yes please!
And this isn't judgment, just to give an insight into how others regard scale weight.4 -
I do love that muscle memory is a thing! I never got up to what anyone would consider heavy lifting but I was able to curl 35 pound dumbbells with good form and consistency and now I am probably at 15 pounds if I’m wanting to do 3 sets of 15 with anything resembling form lol. It would be nice to think I’d pass that quickly. I have no idea what my bf is. Or how to eyeball it @VintageFeline I find that pretty awesome that you can!0
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VintageFeline wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »So this week has certainly been ... interesting. I've still got that cyclical water weight going on (I was saying to my mother that it is incredibly unfair that no one considers me to have a true period right now... but I get the water retention fun with it), and it's been bobbling a bit, but still coming in at a pound lower than last month. It should be off on Tuesday -- it's usually 10 days for me -- and I'll be eager to see what happens then.
Right now, my priority is still getting back to where I was before the half in May. Because I don't *care* that my measurements are smaller -- it does feel like the one saving grace right now is that some of the clothes I bought last fall are slightly big -- but a 5 percent weight increase since April is unacceptable (I don't care that it's supposedly water, and I don't care that the measurements are smaller -- would *ANYONE* be OK with the scale going up 5 percent?). The dietitian is aware that this is my primary concern -- but she'd also warned me that as we increased sodium, that I wasn't going to like what the scale says. And oh, was she right. Fortunately, my therapist also flatly said that it's OK for me to be angry right now -- because I am.
After we figure out the sodium thing, I feel like one thing the dietitian and I need to work on is actually having me be *consistent* in my days while concurrently getting this 5 percent increase off. Because while yes, there are days like yesterday where I'm eating at maintenance, then there are days where it's lower -- and I feel like those days contribute to the maintenance days where I'm eating at maintenance entirely because I feel like I'm going to gnaw my arm off. And that's not helping to fix the increase problem.
Honestly, if I was smaller at a higher scale weight I'd be pretty delighted. The heavier you are the more you get to eat. So aesthetically pleasing to myself and heavy? Yes please!
And this isn't judgment, just to give an insight into how others regard scale weight.
Welcome to my brain.
I want smaller measurements and the weight I had. Because right now, I am neither aesthetically acceptable to myself nor sub-120.
Frankly, getting back to the sub-120 is the *only* goal right now. And I'm too afraid of repeating May -- which in a way, I guess, is good, because it means I'm not dropping down calories to that level again.1 -
I had intelligent things to say, but caffeine hasn't kicked in yet, so my brain lost them...
Refeed Round Four, whoot!! This one gets to combine with ovulation bloat, which should be hilarious on the scale. I didn't even make it back to my low from a week ago because that's already set in.
No hiking this weekend thanks to rain. Today should be strength training, and starting Strong Curves, but I may do that tomorrow both because of energy levels (that'll teach me to push for a full 3500 deficit in 5 days, and go to bed way too late) and because I have questions before starting and want to read the book before asking on the forum.4 -
Yeah I'm pretty tired tonight but that's no bad thing for an insomniac. Plus I've been having the good old probably med related night sweats this week so that's interrupted my sleep. And no naps, which are largely crucial because my wonky brain likes to exhaust me. It's nearly 7pm and I want it to be sleepy time. Which will have the double bonus of waking up to refeed, booya.1
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MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Thanks @Nony_Mouse!
I was on a deficit for 5 weeks at 50% carbs, then went on a 4 weeks maintenance (not by choice but because as you said, my performance was just tanking and going back to maintenance helped with hunger). Now, I'm back to a deficit again and upped to 60%. I really like the idea of a regular weekly refeed.
And yeah, I was looking for a quick answer
... sorry!
I'll forgive you this time @maybyn
Refeed is awesome, though be warned, if you're like me and tend towards higher fat (I'm generally around 70-80g, but can easily be as high 100g), keeping that down around 50g is hard work! Whether a 'by the book' refeed is necessary, or just having weekends at maintenance is enough is the question! One I'm pretty sure will be answered in Lyle's forthcoming book for us wimmin folks.
This thread is fabulous - thanks for posting the video, even if it's blocked on my work computer and I keep forgetting to fire it up at home. I have read through the links though. I've been very curious about the effect of maintenance weekends personally, as I've been eating at or above maintenance probably 1 day out of 3 or 4 since I started losing (usually but not always weekends), and at least 9.5 months and 32 pounds in have not felt any negative effects of being in an overall deficit. Certainly I'm not losing as fast as I could, but it's been steady enough that I'm quite happy and feel optimistic going into year two. After reading the link on https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-big-caloric-deficits-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html/ I feel extra bad for folks who are really impatient to lose/stressed out about water gains/worried a single day over goal will ruin everything.
Being in an overall deficit is what drives fat loss. Full stop. How you achieve a net deficit is a personal choice.
As a summary of 5 pages worth of info:
- As soon as you're in a deficit, hormonal changes happen for everyone, though there is a delayed response before you even feel it. Caveat: if you have a lot of weight to lose, you may not feel those effects until you're leaner.
- The concept of refeeds are to address downregulated hormonal responses, primarily leptin, which responds to levels of body fat, but carbs trigger an upregulation of leptin faster than fat can; due to the nature of delayed response, smaller refeed schedules probably aren't doing much; therefore, longer refeed schedules actually bumped up leptin levels as close to baseline as possible (it's never true baseline until you're no longer on a diet). Caveat: glycogen depletion allows for higher carb intake without actual fat gain and somewhat "tricks" fat cells into thinking there is permanent energy storage happening to signal leptin - it is not a free for all pass to eat all the things.
- As counterintuitive as it is: the leaner you are, the less dieting you need to do to continue fat loss with optimal hormone response; therefore, instead of extended periods of refeeds, more frequent, small refeed periods tend to work better.
- Diet breaks are different from refeeds. They are extended periods of maintenance feeding at your new lower weight to practice long-term weight loss habits. No one wants (or should want) to chronically diet forever or be on repetitive bulk/cut cycles. They also have the benefit of providing a psychological reprieve from the deleterious effects of dieting. Again, it's not a free pass to eat all the things, but you do get more wiggle room.
- If after the diet break period, you still need (or want) to lose more body fat, then continue another round of dieting. If you no longer need (or want) to lose body fat and you are at a satisfactory level of personal health, comfort, happiness, etc., congrats, you've won the dieting game and can continue maintaining *your new lower weight* AKA don't get fat again.
- Not discussed in this particular podcast, but the general advice among the fitness and nutrition science community is
1) don't get fat in the first place if you're lean,
2) if you are starting from being overweight, don't regain what you've lost,
3) the more overweight you were at your starting point, the easier it is to rebound AKA you gain fat faster than your naturally leaner counterparts - it sucks but it's true,
4) continually gaining and losing large amounts of body fat is more detrimental than losing it once and maintaining, and finally,
5) there is a range of optimal body fat % for the human body (extremely variable due to demographic), where having both, too much and too little, are harmful.
Just as an additional observation, it's good to be mindful of your intake whether you're tracking calories/macros/micros/etc., but don't get neurotic about it, which is why the concept of flexible dieting exists, such as following something like the 80/20 rule. If you are recovering from an ED or some other dysfunctional relationship with food, recognize your triggers and be aware if you are falling into old patterns and/or developing new ones that detract from the goal of an acceptable form of general health, mental and physical.
Quoting so the synopsis is easier to find!5 -
Well, my fatigue caught up with me and I need to start rest week early. I'll still be somewhat active, but not nearly as active as I normally am. I need to move around throughout the day to keep my joints from stiffening up.
This somewhat makes my plans for doing a refeed this weekend a lot less fun. I won't have all that many calories to play around with. I might eat to maintenance, but I won't get to have the food I was originally planning because it just won't fit. Well, a smaller portion would, but I'm a volume eater to some extent.
Today marks making it the longest I've gone (surpassing my old record by a week) without a binge in a year. I am so thankful for this thread and the stories you've all shared for inspiring me!14 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Well, my fatigue caught up with me and I need to start rest week early. I'll still be somewhat active, but not nearly as active as I normally am. I need to move around throughout the day to keep my joints from stiffening up.
This somewhat makes my plans for doing a refeed this weekend a lot less fun. I won't have all that many calories to play around with. I might eat to maintenance, but I won't get to have the food I was originally planning because it just won't fit. Well, a smaller portion would, but I'm a volume eater to some extent.
Today marks making it the longest I've gone (surpassing my old record by a week) without a binge in a year. I am so thankful for this thread and the stories you've all shared for inspiring me!
That is simply awesome Peachy 7 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »I had intelligent things to say, but caffeine hasn't kicked in yet, so my brain lost them...
Refeed Round Four, whoot!! This one gets to combine with ovulation bloat, which should be hilarious on the scale. I didn't even make it back to my low from a week ago because that's already set in.
No hiking this weekend thanks to rain. Today should be strength training, and starting Strong Curves, but I may do that tomorrow both because of energy levels (that'll teach me to push for a full 3500 deficit in 5 days, and go to bed way too late) and because I have questions before starting and want to read the book before asking on the forum.
Just a thought for you to consider. When you get in to Strong Curves your water weight will likely go up for a couple of weeks as your body adapts and repairs. Maybe for even longer depending on how intense you will go at it. This is not a bad thing but will skew the scale number but not BF obviously. You probably already realize this but if not......2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Thanks @Nony_Mouse!
I was on a deficit for 5 weeks at 50% carbs, then went on a 4 weeks maintenance (not by choice but because as you said, my performance was just tanking and going back to maintenance helped with hunger). Now, I'm back to a deficit again and upped to 60%. I really like the idea of a regular weekly refeed.
And yeah, I was looking for a quick answer... sorry!
I'll forgive you this time @maybyn
Refeed is awesome, though be warned, if you're like me and tend towards higher fat (I'm generally around 70-80g, but can easily be as high 100g), keeping that down around 50g is hard work! Whether a 'by the book' refeed is necessary, or just having weekends at maintenance is enough is the question! One I'm pretty sure will be answered in Lyle's forthcoming book for us wimmin folks.
This thread is fabulous - thanks for posting the video, even if it's blocked on my work computer and I keep forgetting to fire it up at home. I have read through the links though. I've been very curious about the effect of maintenance weekends personally, as I've been eating at or above maintenance probably 1 day out of 3 or 4 since I started losing (usually but not always weekends), and at least 9.5 months and 32 pounds in have not felt any negative effects of being in an overall deficit. Certainly I'm not losing as fast as I could, but it's been steady enough that I'm quite happy and feel optimistic going into year two. After reading the link on https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-big-caloric-deficits-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html/ I feel extra bad for folks who are really impatient to lose/stressed out about water gains/worried a single day over goal will ruin everything.
Being in an overall deficit is what drives fat loss. Full stop. How you achieve a net deficit is a personal choice.
As a summary of 5 pages worth of info:
- As soon as you're in a deficit, hormonal changes happen for everyone, though there is a delayed response before you even feel it. Caveat: if you have a lot of weight to lose, you may not feel those effects until you're leaner.
- The concept of refeeds are to address downregulated hormonal responses, primarily leptin, which responds to levels of body fat, but carbs trigger an upregulation of leptin faster than fat can; due to the nature of delayed response, smaller refeed schedules probably aren't doing much; therefore, longer refeed schedules actually bumped up leptin levels as close to baseline as possible (it's never true baseline until you're no longer on a diet). Caveat: glycogen depletion allows for higher carb intake without actual fat gain and somewhat "tricks" fat cells into thinking there is permanent energy storage happening to signal leptin - it is not a free for all pass to eat all the things.
- As counterintuitive as it is: the leaner you are, the less dieting you need to do to continue fat loss with optimal hormone response; therefore, instead of extended periods of refeeds, more frequent, small refeed periods tend to work better.
- Diet breaks are different from refeeds. They are extended periods of maintenance feeding at your new lower weight to practice long-term weight loss habits. No one wants (or should want) to chronically diet forever or be on repetitive bulk/cut cycles. They also have the benefit of providing a psychological reprieve from the deleterious effects of dieting. Again, it's not a free pass to eat all the things, but you do get more wiggle room.
- If after the diet break period, you still need (or want) to lose more body fat, then continue another round of dieting. If you no longer need (or want) to lose body fat and you are at a satisfactory level of personal health, comfort, happiness, etc., congrats, you've won the dieting game and can continue maintaining *your new lower weight* AKA don't get fat again.
- Not discussed in this particular podcast, but the general advice among the fitness and nutrition science community is
1) don't get fat in the first place if you're lean,
2) if you are starting from being overweight, don't regain what you've lost,
3) the more overweight you were at your starting point, the easier it is to rebound AKA you gain fat faster than your naturally leaner counterparts - it sucks but it's true,
4) continually gaining and losing large amounts of body fat is more detrimental than losing it once and maintaining, and finally,
5) there is a range of optimal body fat % for the human body (extremely variable due to demographic), where having both, too much and too little, are harmful.
Just as an additional observation, it's good to be mindful of your intake whether you're tracking calories/macros/micros/etc., but don't get neurotic about it, which is why the concept of flexible dieting exists, such as following something like the 80/20 rule. If you are recovering from an ED or some other dysfunctional relationship with food, recognize your triggers and be aware if you are falling into old patterns and/or developing new ones that detract from the goal of an acceptable form of general health, mental and physical.
Quoting so the synopsis is easier to find!
Just want to recognize and thank @anubis609 for all his great contributions to this thread. He has been an incredibly knowledgeable and helpful resource. Thanks Man!11 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »I had intelligent things to say, but caffeine hasn't kicked in yet, so my brain lost them...
Refeed Round Four, whoot!! This one gets to combine with ovulation bloat, which should be hilarious on the scale. I didn't even make it back to my low from a week ago because that's already set in.
No hiking this weekend thanks to rain. Today should be strength training, and starting Strong Curves, but I may do that tomorrow both because of energy levels (that'll teach me to push for a full 3500 deficit in 5 days, and go to bed way too late) and because I have questions before starting and want to read the book before asking on the forum.
Just a thought for you to consider. When you get in to Strong Curves your water weight will likely go up for a couple of weeks as your body adapts and repairs. Maybe for even longer depending on how intense you will go at it. This is not a bad thing but will skew the scale number but not BF obviously. You probably already realize this but if not......
Yep, it should make scale weight tomorrow/Monday even more hilarious! Though, remember, I am already strength training, just switching to following an actual programme. And if I did today's workout as written (straight bodyweight), I'm pretty sure I'd get to the end and go 'um, can I work muscles now?'. Hence questions. I'm pretty sure the answer is 'yes, pick up heavy things to add resistance where needed'.4 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Thanks @Nony_Mouse!
I was on a deficit for 5 weeks at 50% carbs, then went on a 4 weeks maintenance (not by choice but because as you said, my performance was just tanking and going back to maintenance helped with hunger). Now, I'm back to a deficit again and upped to 60%. I really like the idea of a regular weekly refeed.
And yeah, I was looking for a quick answer... sorry!
I'll forgive you this time @maybyn
Refeed is awesome, though be warned, if you're like me and tend towards higher fat (I'm generally around 70-80g, but can easily be as high 100g), keeping that down around 50g is hard work! Whether a 'by the book' refeed is necessary, or just having weekends at maintenance is enough is the question! One I'm pretty sure will be answered in Lyle's forthcoming book for us wimmin folks.
This thread is fabulous - thanks for posting the video, even if it's blocked on my work computer and I keep forgetting to fire it up at home. I have read through the links though. I've been very curious about the effect of maintenance weekends personally, as I've been eating at or above maintenance probably 1 day out of 3 or 4 since I started losing (usually but not always weekends), and at least 9.5 months and 32 pounds in have not felt any negative effects of being in an overall deficit. Certainly I'm not losing as fast as I could, but it's been steady enough that I'm quite happy and feel optimistic going into year two. After reading the link on https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-big-caloric-deficits-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html/ I feel extra bad for folks who are really impatient to lose/stressed out about water gains/worried a single day over goal will ruin everything.
Being in an overall deficit is what drives fat loss. Full stop. How you achieve a net deficit is a personal choice.
As a summary of 5 pages worth of info:
- As soon as you're in a deficit, hormonal changes happen for everyone, though there is a delayed response before you even feel it. Caveat: if you have a lot of weight to lose, you may not feel those effects until you're leaner.
- The concept of refeeds are to address downregulated hormonal responses, primarily leptin, which responds to levels of body fat, but carbs trigger an upregulation of leptin faster than fat can; due to the nature of delayed response, smaller refeed schedules probably aren't doing much; therefore, longer refeed schedules actually bumped up leptin levels as close to baseline as possible (it's never true baseline until you're no longer on a diet). Caveat: glycogen depletion allows for higher carb intake without actual fat gain and somewhat "tricks" fat cells into thinking there is permanent energy storage happening to signal leptin - it is not a free for all pass to eat all the things.
- As counterintuitive as it is: the leaner you are, the less dieting you need to do to continue fat loss with optimal hormone response; therefore, instead of extended periods of refeeds, more frequent, small refeed periods tend to work better.
- Diet breaks are different from refeeds. They are extended periods of maintenance feeding at your new lower weight to practice long-term weight loss habits. No one wants (or should want) to chronically diet forever or be on repetitive bulk/cut cycles. They also have the benefit of providing a psychological reprieve from the deleterious effects of dieting. Again, it's not a free pass to eat all the things, but you do get more wiggle room.
- If after the diet break period, you still need (or want) to lose more body fat, then continue another round of dieting. If you no longer need (or want) to lose body fat and you are at a satisfactory level of personal health, comfort, happiness, etc., congrats, you've won the dieting game and can continue maintaining *your new lower weight* AKA don't get fat again.
- Not discussed in this particular podcast, but the general advice among the fitness and nutrition science community is
1) don't get fat in the first place if you're lean,
2) if you are starting from being overweight, don't regain what you've lost,
3) the more overweight you were at your starting point, the easier it is to rebound AKA you gain fat faster than your naturally leaner counterparts - it sucks but it's true,
4) continually gaining and losing large amounts of body fat is more detrimental than losing it once and maintaining, and finally,
5) there is a range of optimal body fat % for the human body (extremely variable due to demographic), where having both, too much and too little, are harmful.
Just as an additional observation, it's good to be mindful of your intake whether you're tracking calories/macros/micros/etc., but don't get neurotic about it, which is why the concept of flexible dieting exists, such as following something like the 80/20 rule. If you are recovering from an ED or some other dysfunctional relationship with food, recognize your triggers and be aware if you are falling into old patterns and/or developing new ones that detract from the goal of an acceptable form of general health, mental and physical.
Quoting so the synopsis is easier to find!
Just want to recognize and thank @anubis609 for all his great contributions to this thread. He has been an incredibly knowledgeable and helpful resource. Thanks Man!
Cosigned.4 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »MegaMooseEsq wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Thanks @Nony_Mouse!
I was on a deficit for 5 weeks at 50% carbs, then went on a 4 weeks maintenance (not by choice but because as you said, my performance was just tanking and going back to maintenance helped with hunger). Now, I'm back to a deficit again and upped to 60%. I really like the idea of a regular weekly refeed.
And yeah, I was looking for a quick answer... sorry!
I'll forgive you this time @maybyn
Refeed is awesome, though be warned, if you're like me and tend towards higher fat (I'm generally around 70-80g, but can easily be as high 100g), keeping that down around 50g is hard work! Whether a 'by the book' refeed is necessary, or just having weekends at maintenance is enough is the question! One I'm pretty sure will be answered in Lyle's forthcoming book for us wimmin folks.
This thread is fabulous - thanks for posting the video, even if it's blocked on my work computer and I keep forgetting to fire it up at home. I have read through the links though. I've been very curious about the effect of maintenance weekends personally, as I've been eating at or above maintenance probably 1 day out of 3 or 4 since I started losing (usually but not always weekends), and at least 9.5 months and 32 pounds in have not felt any negative effects of being in an overall deficit. Certainly I'm not losing as fast as I could, but it's been steady enough that I'm quite happy and feel optimistic going into year two. After reading the link on https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-big-caloric-deficits-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html/ I feel extra bad for folks who are really impatient to lose/stressed out about water gains/worried a single day over goal will ruin everything.
Being in an overall deficit is what drives fat loss. Full stop. How you achieve a net deficit is a personal choice.
As a summary of 5 pages worth of info:
- As soon as you're in a deficit, hormonal changes happen for everyone, though there is a delayed response before you even feel it. Caveat: if you have a lot of weight to lose, you may not feel those effects until you're leaner.
- The concept of refeeds are to address downregulated hormonal responses, primarily leptin, which responds to levels of body fat, but carbs trigger an upregulation of leptin faster than fat can; due to the nature of delayed response, smaller refeed schedules probably aren't doing much; therefore, longer refeed schedules actually bumped up leptin levels as close to baseline as possible (it's never true baseline until you're no longer on a diet). Caveat: glycogen depletion allows for higher carb intake without actual fat gain and somewhat "tricks" fat cells into thinking there is permanent energy storage happening to signal leptin - it is not a free for all pass to eat all the things.
- As counterintuitive as it is: the leaner you are, the less dieting you need to do to continue fat loss with optimal hormone response; therefore, instead of extended periods of refeeds, more frequent, small refeed periods tend to work better.
- Diet breaks are different from refeeds. They are extended periods of maintenance feeding at your new lower weight to practice long-term weight loss habits. No one wants (or should want) to chronically diet forever or be on repetitive bulk/cut cycles. They also have the benefit of providing a psychological reprieve from the deleterious effects of dieting. Again, it's not a free pass to eat all the things, but you do get more wiggle room.
- If after the diet break period, you still need (or want) to lose more body fat, then continue another round of dieting. If you no longer need (or want) to lose body fat and you are at a satisfactory level of personal health, comfort, happiness, etc., congrats, you've won the dieting game and can continue maintaining *your new lower weight* AKA don't get fat again.
- Not discussed in this particular podcast, but the general advice among the fitness and nutrition science community is
1) don't get fat in the first place if you're lean,
2) if you are starting from being overweight, don't regain what you've lost,
3) the more overweight you were at your starting point, the easier it is to rebound AKA you gain fat faster than your naturally leaner counterparts - it sucks but it's true,
4) continually gaining and losing large amounts of body fat is more detrimental than losing it once and maintaining, and finally,
5) there is a range of optimal body fat % for the human body (extremely variable due to demographic), where having both, too much and too little, are harmful.
Just as an additional observation, it's good to be mindful of your intake whether you're tracking calories/macros/micros/etc., but don't get neurotic about it, which is why the concept of flexible dieting exists, such as following something like the 80/20 rule. If you are recovering from an ED or some other dysfunctional relationship with food, recognize your triggers and be aware if you are falling into old patterns and/or developing new ones that detract from the goal of an acceptable form of general health, mental and physical.
Quoting so the synopsis is easier to find!
Just want to recognize and thank @anubis609 for all his great contributions to this thread. He has been an incredibly knowledgeable and helpful resource. Thanks Man!
Double cosigned.4
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